It's ER 4.01 A., which states that a skater will have restricted eligibility status if he or she "receives remuneration from ownership or management of an ice show, ice arena, skating exhibition tour, or non sanctioned competition. (A person shall be considered an owner or manager if, through investment or paid employment, that person makes decisions regarding the operation of an ice show, ice arena, skating exhibition tour, or non-sanctioned competition.)" A skating director clearly falls into this category.

ER 4.03: "All persons under restricted status are restricted while they engage in the above activities and for ninety (90) days thereafter."

A call to Capitol Ice Academy (515-266-6829) confirmed that Burton Powley is the rink's skating director.

Then the next question is....what is meant by "restricted status?"

I guess I'm just confused about all of this....then again, if the USFS doesn't know, this situation doesn't exist (kinda like the urban legend of married women who rejoin the USFS and skate Bronze, even if they were higher than Juvenile as kids..the USFS has no idea because of the name change).

However, I don't care enough to "tattle" on another skater....I'm just curious about rules and stuff. Hey, if you knew what I did for a living, it would make sense....

Restricted skaters are not eligible to compete in qualifying events. Only eligible and reinstated skaters may qualify for Adult Nationals (page 65 of the USFS Rulebook). Restricted skaters may compete in non-qualifying competitions, however.

Which means, the USFS checked out Burt's status before Mids even started, because the Champ forms go to the USFS hq's. Um, doh!

Now back to our regularly scheduled fun and skating chat.....

The USFS might verify test level and age, but that's about it. Otherwise, they rely on the competitor's integrity when he or she signs the competition application stating that he or she is eligible for the competition in accordance with current USFS Rules. Undoubtedly the USFS will be investigating Burton's eligibility now, due to certain allegations brought to light on this board.

And that's the last comment I'm making on this unfortunate subject!

Not unless someone called the USFS and told them. The USFS isn't reading this board to look for ineligible skaters.

It doesn't matter....I don't think any of the Champ Gold Men even care....I know that the guy who placed 5th (and directly affected by this) hasn't given this one thought. I'm just trying to figure out why the USFS wouldn't check this out before a qualifying competition.

I doubt that....

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Tim David's Website

SkateGuard wrote...
To which Tim David replied Sorry to tell 'ya this, Tim, but I can say for certain that Chris Williams' (the Bronze medalist for that event) posting on another board with the subject titled "Leave Burt Alone" made it CRYSTAL CLEAR to me that he doesn't care!

Me? I rather hear about what's happening at Pacific Coast Sectionals myself!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Great guy or not, I'm sorry, but that is one spot Burt has taken up on the podium.

It should have gone to a deserving Gold Men's skater.

Chris Williams already won the gold last year at Nationals and Burt won it 3 times at the gold level. Obviously Christopher clearly looks like a Gold skater in contrast to Burt's Masters ability.

And that is my final opinion on this matter.

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Tim David's Website

Chris wasn't 100% at Mids. He sustained a severe cut to his leg which required stitches only three weeks beforehand and pushed it to skate at both Wyandotte and Mids. He's now mending and looking more like himself. You may be surprised at KC....

Also, the guy who placed 5th is pretty happy about how things went (he's coming back from a severly sprained/broken ankle that had him on crutches in November and off the ice until Christmas). Whining about how he should have qualified is the last thing on his mind right now, trust me.

Considering that he's the one most directly affected, and he doesn't care....

Sorry, Tim, but weren't you once competing at (or skating up to?) the juvenile level? And now you're comepting in bronze at adult nationals? Pot calling the kettle black if ever I heard it.

Anyway, I must say many of us are having a ball reading this thread!

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

At the risk of sounding like the QA & Regulatory Affairs chick that I am in my "other life," when rules are broken it indirectly affects everyone. When we knowingly tolerate it, it brings us all down a little bit. When it's flaunted, it makes us adult skaters all look bad. The rules exist to try to create a level playing field. If skaters are allowed to ignore the rules because they're ... gosh, just swell people, why bother to have the rules at all? Why not just scrap the eligibility rules for adults and make it a free-for-all? It's a slippery slope. (I'll skip the parallel to rampant cheating in colleges.)

Because USFS is still primarily a big organization run by volunteers and too few paid staff. And, quite frankly, how would they verify something like this? Professional status is self-reported. Unless you're naive enough to put it up on a website.

Hey, that's a good question. Didn't you say you'd passed juvenile something (MITF? FS?)? How were you eligible to compete Gold at Peach Classic last year, but you've only passed the Bronze FS test?

I've wondered that myself. You specifically refused to say what tests you'd passed in another thread. You do seem to be very opinionated on this subject about Burt, but it isn't your battle to fight especially since you aren't even in that level.
If you have passed Juvenile, no way can you skate Bronze. Last year I was shut out of AN because I'd passed Pre Juv FS but didn't pass Silver free in time, so I couldn't skate Bronze. If that's the case and you have passed Juv, I'm surprised USFS didn't catch you. How did you skate Gold at Peach and now Bronze at AN? Quite honestly, it means you fibbed somewhere on your applications.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I requested with the competition comittee to skate up at these non qualifying events. At Peach and the competitions when I was skating standard level. I've always want to compete at the higher level since I was a kid.

Plus, I never said I passed the Juvenile or Pre-Juv moves. I don't know where that came from.

With my results so far in the adult level, do I look like I am sandbagging?

__________________
Tim David's Website

Ah, yes, cGMP. My other world, too...I consult for pharma, doing validation. I understand that rules were made to be followed, but in this case, everyone is kvetching on a forum, _but nobody has called the USFS to make sure that everything is legit_. So I'm under the "innocent until proven guilty" banner right now.

Look, a bunch of people heard his story at Mids, and as far as we all could tell, he's legit. It's more than "he's a swell guy." While he owned Capitol Ice, he didn't compete--he's certainly aware of the rules, and has played by them. So why would he suddenly change that for a medal in an event he has already won? His demeanor over the weekend never suggested that he wanted to win....he was there to have a good time. I don't think he went into it as an easy medal. He needed oxygen after both freestyle events.....

If you guys are so concerned, stop whining and get some facts....from the USFS! Sheesh.

It has happened in the past that USFS has not caught an adult skater who either intentiaonally lied or accidentally left out (not sure which it was and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) a test they had passed on an application. That skater went on to ANs and won an event. It was only after the event was over that someone caught the error. And it was something having to do with what they had passed in ISI, if I recall correctly.

Considering I was good friends with the silver medalist at the time, you can bet they were pissed.

I'm just saying that sometimes the USFS does not check ahead of time. But I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to Burt that he is eligible.

Well, they're not as quick to check out ISI stuff. They don't ask for madien names, either. So it's rather easy to skate down if you're a woman who skated ISI as a kid.

However, this is a bit more noticable, since he's listed as skating director (and thus, the contact person for the USFS Basic Skills Program), as well as the fact that this is Championship level....

My dance partner placed 5th, so trust me when I say he's got more important things to do with his time than whine....I apparently do not.

Even when Chris was at his top form last year when he won, he still looked like a top Gold Skater, not masters. He looks like someone who has learned to skate as an adult and has learned some AMAZING tricks although they don't look too right... that is the difference between a gold skater and a masters skater. No amount of hard work is going to transform Chris' skating -or ANY of the top Gold Men's skaters out there from a Gold Level into Masters level - they just did not start as children so all their tricks - while wonderful, will never have the polish of a masters skater who has skated and jumped since childhood. I have seen Chris' reply to this whole situation on the compadultsk8 yahoo message board....

here it is


Alright, here's the story with Burt:
(Coming from another Men's Gold skater-- who placed 3rd and feels fortunate for
that)
As far as I'm concerned, he's a great guy who skates really well. He skates at
Gold now and that's fine with me.

Instead of taking time to read Burt's press clippings,(or mine for that matter),
I'm using that time at THE RINK, PRACTICING like I wish I could have done for
the past month, and like I SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING for the past year.

Burt has just reset the bar for Gold Men. Now it's up to me to prepare to make
an ATTEMPT at that level. I'm not sure what I'll be able to actually
accomplish, but I know what I will work towards.

So let's give Burt his due, leave our excuses at home,and get out to the rink
and PRACTICE.

Chris

This is all well and nice, but the fact is that Chris has already won his gold medal so whatever happens from here on out, it really doesn't matter to him. If this sandbagging masters skater keeps clogging the top spot then other true Gold men will never have a chance to step on the top of the podium like Chris did last year.

You know - it's really ugly that folks are namecalling a specific skater "this sandbangging master" etc. The skating levels are determined by passed tests, and that's it. Calling this person a "real" adult skater and someone else what - unreal? is just silly. There are not enough adult skaters in the world to go around and categorize them all based on their YEARS of background and experiences (skating and non-skating). So this one skated from age 6 on and never stopped; vs. that one who skated for a couple of years in high school then took 25 years off and came back; vs. that one who started at age 24 and is now 32 and quite happy at Silver; vs. that one who started in his mid-30s and has worked his way up to Gold; vs. the other who did whatever and then got an injury and will never again be able to do than a single loop. [ALL of these are hypothetical skaters not based on anyone in real life.] Sheepers creepers folks - just get out there and skate your OWN best and the rest is largely not under your own control. Yes, folks should be honest. But when it reduces to the level of calling someone a sandbagger b/c in your opinion they SHOULD test up to the next level - well, until you walk a mile in their shoes, that's not up to you to decide.

--Sara

Correction....Chris is a child-start skater. He figure skated and played hockey growing up. (He's from MN, doh!) He's just had several long periods away from skating.

Actually, quite a few Gold level skaters are child-start skaters. It's just that they never got higher than the Juv level. Masters skaters are if they are Intermediate or higher. For example, Larry Holliday and Diedre Reeves have both passed their Sr. Free.

everyone can clearly see the difference between someone who is a masters skater and skaters who have started as adults.
There should be no surprise that championship adult skaters are any less competitive than standard track skaters. yes, there is the extra smile, the extra handshake, the extra hug, the "friendly" conversation, but make no mistake - on the championship level where people are not dressing up in snoopy , dracula or raggedy-ann costumes , the majority of skaters WANT that gold medal as badly as any eligible skater even though there is no prize money, commercial endorsement or fame associated with it.

We all have to walk miles in our own shoes when it comes to skating -Unfortunately it's not so easy when you have sprains, 10 bumps, bruises and blisters on each foot.

Is there any doubt that Chris is skating at the level where he belongs? no, his tricks are gold level - some great stuff but something is not quite right -just like the rest of the gold skaters. I can see someone not skating at their right level once because of testing issues, but to win an event 3 times with double double combos that would make a skater competitive for at least a masters bronze medal and then drop out and come back again for another gold is just simply crazy. Look at last year's silver champions at nationals- both class 1 and 2 - all you need is an axel to win, but these ladies and gentelmen all had doubles in their repertoire and were working their way up the ranks to the level that they all should be on. Now that they are in Gold, they are now where they should be. Sure, they could go back to win multiple national silver titles, but what is the point?

Top masters skaters have skated competitively throughout their childhood into their 20's and kept up alot of their skills like Larry Holliday. Even Edward VanCampen was a 3 time Dutch national champion who skated on the WORLD stage!
It is funny to me that there is still controversy on many other skating message boards about who was the first person to actually land the triple jump at Adult nationals - Larry Holliday or Burton Powley...
No true gold skater would ever have any such gossip associated with them.

Now, wait. About 50% of silvers and 75% of golds started skating as kids. Masters skaters are ones who were _elite skaters_ as kids (Intermediate or higher). There are even kid start skaters in Bronze. The girl who won Bronze I at ANs last year started skating as a kid, but never kept it up long enough to get above the bronze level until last summer.

I also find the idea that Championship level skaters _don't_ wear silly costumes or take Adult Nationals more seriously. There's a lot of people in Bronze or Silver who want that national medal just as much. Yes, Championship is the "big time," but don't insult non-championship (or non-Masters) adult skaters by these assumptions.

Conversely, there's a lot of Championship level skaters who realize that this competition isn't the end-all, be-all of their lives--they're professionals, they're spouses, they're parents--well, you get the idea.

I have seen Champ qualifiers dress as Grinches, Purple People Eaters, witches , schwans , and Sonja Henie. That is interp--another fun aspect of adult skating. Freestyle is different, whether you are a first year Bronze I or Larry Holliday.

Just because I'm a bronze doesn't mean that my clubmates (including the three who did qualify in Champ level) treat my skating any less seriously than they treat their own. And nor do I, since I plan on being a Champ level qualifier as well someday.

There was no insult intended towards any silver or bronze skater. Of course there are silver and bronze skaters who get as many cuts , bumps and bruises, share the same frustrations and joys as any gold or masters level skater. Heck, I was in the stands watching the bronze ladies competition last year and heard some EXTREMELY ugly things coming out of more than one woman's mouth about how this one bronze skater should have been silver. I saw her myself, and this woman clearly looked silver to me. So clearly being extremely competitive cuts across all levels. If this is the same girl, I bet you she has some sense to now move up the next level seeing as she won the national title.

What I was referring to was the fact that most people doing competitive freestyle routines in adult skating want to stand on the podium with people who are on their appropriate level. Adult skating is sometimes misrepresented as a less serious side of the sport, but it is no less serious to all the wonderful adults who work hard, get up at 3 in the morning , spend their money and get injured. Videos like the one they put out in Lake Placid featuring mostly snoopy, dracula, a spider and raggedy ann instead showing more clips from competitive routines from all of the masters, gold, silver and bronze champions reinforce the perception of adult skating as being silly and a waste of time.

With fierce competition also comes cheaters and liars.