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Questions about flip jump and spins
Hi! I have a few questions about the flip jump and spins and wouldn't mind some tips on them.
Flip jump. This is what my current coach told me to do for a flip. First start with a LFO three-turn, glide on LBI edge and tap with the right toe, then do a half spin on the right toe before jumping up in the air. When she was demonstrating it, she did a 3-turn, and then actually spinned on her toe until she faced forward before jumped. I am very doubtful about this "half spin". My question is: Isn't this cheating??? She has been emphasizing this "half spin" for virtually every jump, i.e. salchow, flip, loop, and toe-loop. For the loop, thinking to spin does help me to "scoop" up. I knew for toe-loop if you spin it is a toe-waltz. But I can't help thinking that she is teaching me to cheat the flip jump. Her technique doesn't help my jumps to be honest. My flip is underrotated. But I think I am not bending my knees enough and not gliding long enough on my inside edge. Any thoughts? Spins. I am doing one foot spin and sit spin for now. I am still scared of the camel and the back spin. My probelm is that I can't hook the spins. Instead of spinning into the 3-turn, I spin out of it. My coach really doesn't have any constructive suggestions for me to improve. Any tips? After following through with the recent discussion about blades. I am seriously thinking about switching blades. Right now I am wearing Coronation Comet, which have a 8 1/2' rocker. It got me thinking, if I switch to something with a 7' rocker, such as Coronation Ace or MK Professional, it may help my spins???!!! Thanks a million!!! I am determined to overcome the spins and the jumps!
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Reach out for the sunshine ~* |
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Single jumps--besides the axel--are full-revolution jumps. If your coach is encouraging you to hold the toe in the ice until you're facing forward, then you're being encouraged to cheat the jumps.
At the rink where I work, we won't test students until they can demonstrate jumps that are consistently not cheated. While your coach may not be bothered by cheating the jump, many coaches and rinks do not allow the practice. I applaud you for noticing this discrepancy and encourage you to work on the jumps without pre-rotating them. In terms of spins, try getting a deeper entry edge and holding your free leg extended longer, until you feel yourself center. If you don't prepare properly and then center yourself as you start the spin, there's no way you can expect to locate your center thereafter. |
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I disagree with both your coach and BothCoasts.
The edge single jumps are NOT full revolution jumps. The toe jumps, however, are. YES, spinning on your picking toe pick in toe jumps IS CHEATING, big time. But spinning 1/4 turn on the loop and salchow entry is not cheating, it is absolutely necessary. It's part of the technique, and you'll never get any height or move onto doubles if you don't do it. The loop and salchow should have a little "V" at the end of the entry edge. They do pre-rotate, and it's normal. It shouldn't be more than 1/4 turn, though. The toe jumps should NOT have a "V"...it should be a smooth gliding line, then a gap, a toe pick, and the gliding line for the landing edge. You are facing backwards when taking off, simply switching your weight from your skating foot to your picking foot as you leave the air. No spinning, no pre-rotating. If I were you, I would dump this coach immediatly. I know I already said that to someone else in a different thread, but in this instance, I really mean it. You shouldn't be paying a coach to teach you horrible technique that'll take years to get out of your muscle memory!!! PS: YES, a 7 ft rocker will dramatically help your spins. So will a better coach. But for now, thing of stepping IN FRONT of you when you do the 3-turn into the spin, and not out to the side, or you won't be square and will have no way to hook it properly. |
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I should have clarified the differences between edge and toe jumps in my above posting. The toe jumps that the original poster and myself both referred to are full-revolution jumps. The skater should not be jumping forward off the toe pick.
Edge jumps have a little more flexibility, as stardust skies suggested. However, I would still focus on learning a salchow or a loop as a full revolution jump. While there may be a slight cheat--as noted by a "v" mark on the ice--I wouldn't teach skaters that these jumps are anything less than full revolution so that they do not come to expect that they can even further cheat these jumps. Heck, I'm the type who would certainly have further cut back on the amount of revolution of either the salchow or loop, had I been able to. I've seen skaters attempt to cheat the salchow by assuming that the "v" mark means that they take off come to a stop off the toepick and then turn around to kick forwards, identically to a waltz jump. Who hasn't seen a skater pre-rotate the upper body prior to jumping on a loop jump before understanding the timing of the jump? The body should still be traveling backwards for all single revolution jumps, even if--on the edge jumps--the primary skating foot moves to a slightly open angle. This is why it's important to teach skaters that they are full-revolution jumps. If the skater doesn't understand that the body takes off and lands traveling in the same direction, there will often be a fair amount of pre-rotation. I stand by my posting from above that single jumps should be taught as full-revolution to minimize cheating and create better, more powerful jumps. Last edited by Bothcoasts; 02-16-2006 at 10:40 AM. |
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I agree with stardust's post that you may want to consider looking for a new coach. Keep in mind that this is my grain of salt, given that I've never met your coach and don't know anything about him/her other than what you've suggested above. However, given your posting, if the coach wasn't simply exaggerating the elements and was indeed teaching you to cheat the jump, it's a little disturbing to me. Last edited by Bothcoasts; 02-16-2006 at 01:53 PM. |
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Btw, I believe a toe loop is not considered a full rev jump in that you take off with the non-landing foot (left if you're CCW) and don't really rotate a full turn like the flip and lutz. I've heard it said that the toe, sal, and waltz are basically the same jump. frvanilla, I wonder if maybe your coach was doing that half-spin on her toe pick to exaggerate the point that your weight must transfer to the picking foot before take-off and she doesn't mean you should spin on your toe regularly. You may want to clarify that with her before you run out and get another coach. |
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~No thinking, breathing, or hesitation!~ |
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Is it possible the coach is just walking through the jump slowly, rather than *teaching* the original poster to cheat the jump?
Most of my coaches don't do a full double/trip jump/flying camels/etc/etc/etc to demonstrate, they usually do a walk-through, emphasizing important parts, pointing out where the student is going wrong (eg. "You are droppping your left shoulder *here*"). However, if the coach is truly teaching you this jump and telling you to cheat it, then get a new coach -- who knows how many other things she is teaching you wrong? |
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That, and sometimes a coach will exaggerate something in order to get the skater to do even the tiniest bit of it. It's individualized for the particular skater and that skater's issues. Kind of like thinking about rolling the toes up on back crossovers, or leaning onto the pinky toe on backspins. It doesn't really happen, but thinking about it edges you toward it just enough to get the desired result.
But yeah, if your coach really wants you to completely and totally do what she's demonstrating, you may want to shop around. Ask her about it first, though--honesty first and foremost. |
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Karen I skate - therefore I am |
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It's an interesting topic, though. |
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I am learning the flip and am told that after the 3, I'm to bend deeper (and not hunch forward!) stretch my picking leg way back, pick in and let my other leg skate to it. It should almost be a vault off the picking foot with the weight transfer.
She also tells me the only "cheat" I'm allowed is on the landing if I point my toe I can recover almost any type of less-than-perfect rotation (unless, of course, it's waaaay bad).... Well, I'm not there yet.
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Skate@Delaware Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter! |
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Thank you for all your technical explanations! Sorry for my late reply, I was too busy catching up with the men's free skate program last night.
To Debbie S, luna_skater, TaBalie and Bothcoasts: Yes, my coach is walking through the jump. It could be that she is exaggerating or it could be my misunderstanding. It could also be a language barrier because she doesn't speak much English. I am going to leave aside what she "truly" wants because I could be wrong. But the problem is that a beginner skater (like me) would go ahead and cheat the jump because that is what she said explicitly and did not explain what or why this is cheating. One more problem with this pre-rotation/half-spin method in a flip jump is that I will tend to roll my right ankle out to right side when I pick instead of picking straight to the back if I think about spinning on my toes. (I jump CCW.) Anyone with the same problem? It would also be good if she points out what I am doing wrong. To Bothcoasts: Thx for pointing out that "the body should still be traveling backwards for all single revolution jumps." It's a good reminder to check my body and arms. To stardust skies: Thanks for the detailed explanations!!! This hook in loop and salchow, does it look something like this? Take off: (/ Landing: ( And does the pre-rotation in the salchow happen after I bring my right leg to the front and at the time that I wrap it around my body? Um... please don't feel bad to tell me to look for another coach. Simply put it this way, her teaching just hasn't really worked out for me.
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Reach out for the sunshine ~* |
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Reach out for the sunshine ~* |
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Look at it like this - a half flip isn't rotated at all, so a full flip follows the same progression. My half flip and full flip have identical entries...in the full flip I just rotate an extra 1/2 turn.
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__________________
Reach out for the sunshine ~* |
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Skate@Delaware Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter! |
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The first half is absolutely correct. The second is absolutely wrong. You can't cheat a jump at landing. It won't be passed on tests, it'll be downgraded in competitions, and it's really looked down upon altogether. If you HAVE to cheat a jump, do it at take off. It's less noticeable and less taboo. But ideally, don't do it at all. |
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I think she is gearing me up for something else...she has me skate full-speed laps of stroking and crossovers every session... unless she is just tired of seeing me skate like a snail
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Skate@Delaware Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter! |
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(and the best flips I do are the ones with the least prerotation where I push the body back more and take off the pick. The only lutzes I'm able to land these days are horribly prerotated though...I've only done ONE good one ever :/ )
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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info "What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'." "At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve |
#24
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Interesting those that are slamming this method of teaching the flip (pick, pivot, jump, check). If you check out the great master, Gus Lussi, this is how he taught the flip and the lutz and it's a good way to learn (I stress LEARN, not DO) the flip to get comfortable with the draw and getting the weight over the picking/landing side. He basically taught it that way and said as you get more comfortable with the technique, it'll speed up and you won't pivot before jumping, but take off backwards. It was eye opening to see it in his book since I didn't learn it that way.
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#25
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At least my private coach is different than my group coach....I won't have to worry about doing a flip-waltz! We are still trying to correct the bad technique I learned on the toe-loop (and group coach is still teaching the toe-loop incorrectly-I take it with a grain of salt). I just do it "our" way and press on.
Interestingly, my group coach is great at spins and edges and figures stuff like counters, rockerts etc. which we are learning now. I guess there is more than one way to do a jump-some good, some bad.
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Skate@Delaware Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter! |
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