So this whole Mr. Edge thread has me thinking about things, and since I've been looking at skating stuff on the internet, there's a whole huge distinction for "adult skaters". Certain rinks are "adult-friendly", others are not, certain sessions are "adult only", others are not. And so on and so forth...

Now while I'm no fan of Mr. Edge, it seems that a lot of folks seem set on getting some sort of special treatment just because they're adults, while at the same time not wanting to be considered any different ability-wise from their younger counterparts.

All that I can say from all that I've seen is that there are no certainties. Skaters starting as adults have the same opportunities as younger skaters. We like to say "well we don't have the time" - well, as a parent of a skater now, I can say that my son has no more time than me - he has school and daycare during the time I'm at work and can't simply skate all day long.

Are children any more likely to succeed than adults? Percentagewise, I don't really think so. I have seen a crazy number of kids come and go from the rinks during my skating odyssey, but not many that stick for too long. Adults come and go too, but there are less of them, and more of them stay for a long time (and we harass the ones that leave and urge them to come back more than the kids get from their peers I'm sure).

I've seen numerous people who have started in their 20's or 30's, and are working on double jumps and gorgeous combination spins, so it's certainly possible for adults to learn with the right mindset and coaching.

I started skating almost 2 and a half years ago now, and when I count up all the people I know who are still skating that were skating when I started, there are about the same number of adults and kids, with slightly more adults that I can think of.

Sure, some adults have physical limitations. But guess what? So do a lot of kids. Not every kid is capable of going out there and getting the leg strength and quickness it requires to be really good - most in fact don't.

What's with adult-only sessions? Apparently some people like them because they're less intimidating than regular freestyle sessions. Well guess what, it's not just adults that are intimidated. We, as adults, need to grow up and get over it.

So, long story short, I think we all have the same capabilities. While I don't think that adults should be excluded from things, neither do I think we deserve any sort of special treatment. I think what bothers me most about the last Mr. Edge column, for instance, is not that it made inaccurate and condescending statements (which happened to be about adults in this case) - his column is always inaccurate and condescending...but that it singled out adult skaters. It irks me to see any sort of "Adult" skating article - why can't the article simply talk about skaters in general? It also bothers me to see folks here ward away younger skaters because they have the audacity to claim this is some sort of "adult" haven. I feel that with the attitude of "we need adult-only things", we're just perpetuating age discrimination.

Anyways, just rambling on a bit. Been quiet too much lately. Thoughts and (friendly) debates welcomed.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

How old are you? There is a huge difference between 25 and 55 so I am wondering what "experience group" you fall in.

I have skated MANY rinks in the past year and I will say that there most certainly "unfriendly" rinks when the parent of little tots seem to feel that an adult on the ice is a "waste of time and space".

Skating with tots who pay no attention to where they are going or what is around them is a bad situation when you have a skater who out-weighs them by 100 pounds (or more!). I don't want to hurt somebody's child but I also get VERY P.O.ed when I have to keep breaking off my moves for some little tyke who shows no courtesy or no awareness of anyone else. (Maybe they learn this attitude from the parent who thinks adults don't belong there?)

The best and most productive ice time I have is at one "competitive training centre" where everybody there is training for competition (there is awareness and RESPECT all around) and another rink where the youngest skater is in their mid-20's (also awareness).

I don't think adults expect "special treatment". We just want to be recognized as following a valid passtime (same as the kids) and recognize that adult have a different learning style. We also have "more on the line" in that most of us can not afford to get injured or incapacitated as we don't have Mommy & Daddy to put food on the table.

Just my thoughts.....

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Dianne
(A.O.S.S.? Got it BAD! )

Not special treatment, but different. To understand this you have to understand that there is a real difference in adults and kids. This issue has been discussed to death, if you're really inrerested you may want to search the archives.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Hmm, I've never been aware of that kind of feeling at any rink I've been to (about 6 different rinks). Not from the parents at least.

However, I've been buzzed by teenage hotshots who inhabit distant rinks. Apparently they are claiming their space in their home rink and I generally give them some room if I don't have to get in the way. However, I don't intimidate easily and will not back down when I have the right of way. Abundant mass has its advantages.

Still, the parents never say a thing to me nor do I overhear comments that would discourage me from skating there. I've been lucky, I guess.

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Bill Schneider

i have to disagree with a few things. first of all, adults do learn differently from kids. i have spoken to adults who learned as kids and then came back, and even they say it's different, even though they've done it before. for one thing, most kids (who skate regularly) have less fear than adults. for another thing, most of them are much, much closer to the ice, which means lower center of gravity. look at any sport - don't high achievers usually start as 3-7 year olds? olympic and world championships are filled with teenagers, for heaven's sake.

second, as far as i can tell, serious kids get to skate a lot more than serious adults. this may not be true for everyone at every rink, but it's definitely what i see here. kids may have school like we have work, but some of us squeeze skating in with 2 jobs (or more). some of us don't make enough money to have 3-4 lessons a week and skate 6-10 freestyles a week. i personally could never afford to hire 3 coaches for 5 lessons a week, or travel to another state to work with a special choreographer like one of our best skaters here does!

third, i have to agree with rusty blades that adults are treated differently by parents of child skaters. they act like we're in the way. they don't understand why we skate at all. they think we look dumb next to their kid(s) who had no problem with a camel spin or an axel. they glare at us when we get close to running over their little darlings, even when it's not our fault. "adults only" or "competitive only" skates are a relief, because most adults have more awareness of where they are in relation to others, and because we take up a lot more space in general.

i've picked up things fairly quickly and skate as much as i can, but i still can't keep pace with a young friend who started at age 12, is several inches shorter than i am, and gets twice as much coaching and ice time. adult skaters do deserve special recognition, because it is hard to start a new, highly physical sport at age 25 or 55. maybe it's just me, but judging from other adults i've talked to, i don't think so.

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The skating may not sparkle, but my dress sure does!

Just passed: Pre-Bronze MIF & Freeskate. Next goal: Bronze tests in July.

Given average physical ability it's a mental block that holds people back regardless of age. In general, as people grow older, they tend to have more physical limitations and fear. But it does not apply consistently to all people:

This girl I used to skate with started when she was 17. She was so scared to fall she never made it past a flip or lutz, and she always skated really slow and tentatively. Same case with a gal who started skating around 24.

this guy started at 38 almost 40. has gorgeous perfectly centered spins, great edges and flow across the ice. he's learning an axel now in his mid 40s. A woman I know started skating at 56 and has also no fear of trying to land jumps and spins and skates with speed and strong solid edges. Myself, I started at 25 in figure skating and I'm well into doubles and high level moves and spins.

So, it's not age discrimination, it's an "on -average" limitations for people as they age. It usually doesn't apply to people who were previously reasonable athletes in other sports, as they have already developed the mental-physical skills and toughness to deal with bumps and bruises in sports.

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Keep Evolving. "From this moment forward, every voice that told you - You Can't - , has been silenced." - Freedom Writers

I have to say, I have NEVER been treated like that by parents where I have skated at 3 different rinks. I've found club parents to be supportive of me. Clubs are usually just happy to have someone paying for ice, regardless of how old they are. One should never generalize.

j

Why are we having this exact same conversation all over again?? No one ever changes their opinion. This is Adult Skating's version of the abortion debate.

Here here! Solves nothing and gets everyone upset!!! Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I don't really need to read the archives, it's because I've been reading all of the posts for years that it was on my mind.

To address the other things:

Yes, if kids at a rink are discriminating against adults, it needs to be addressed. Addressing the problem does not mean discriminating back. In my mind adult-only sessions are discriminating back. How would we like it if they had under-18-only sessions during the times we'd like to skate?

Sure, learning is usually easier at younger ages when the brain is still growing. But that is not always the case. And where do you draw the line between starting age? If you start at age 15 are you considered an outcast from both the younger and older groups? Sadly, even starting at 24, I see a lot of attitudes like "oh you don't count as a REAL adult skater". (Yeah, Rusty, I mean your comment too - I do get your point, but I don't think it matters if you start at 15, 25, 55, or 85).

Sure, there are differences, but what it comes down to is that everyone on the ice needs to be aware of their surroundings and try not to run into people. If a younger skater commonly runs into older skaters that should be addressed, but not with some sort of age-based preferential treatment, but instead with standard rules that have the same consequences whether you cause repeated problems for younger or older folks. From what I've seen, when there's a highly-accomplished skater on the ice, they tend to take the right of way more often than not - they don't act differently towards adults or kids, it's just that kids tend to stay out of their way better so they're annoyed when adults don't follow suite. The cause of the problem in those cases is not usually "adults", but rather "people who move slow and aren't mindful of higher-level skaters". Now I'm not saying that higher-level skaters should act this way, but it's the behavior that needs to be addressed, not the age group.

Yeah, some kids get serious and as a result get a lot of ice time. But I've also seen some adults (myself included) at the rink even more often than them at certain periods of time. Yes, there may be a very real difference between ability limits when you start talking about extremes like quad and triple jumps, but there's not that many skaters in most areas pushing those extremes, period.

Even if the average for adults versus youths are significantly different (which I think is really blown out of proportion), I don't think people should be pre-judged based on said averages. If I were to say "most young boys are more mischievous than most young girls" and tried to make girl-only sessions, there would be a huge outcry about discrimination, as well there should be.

Moreover, I've seen more issues with adults complaining over non-issues than kids. Kids will tend to let things go easier, whereas adults will more often head up to the rink manager and make wild claims like "so and so ALMOST hit me!!" when nothing actually happened. Yes, this does happen like southernsk8er said too, where parents will come up and be nasty because you ALMOST hit their kids. Hmm, what's familiar here? it's the "adults" acting like children that's causing the problem. It's up to each skater to judge their skill level and their surroundings to see how close they can get past another skater in their way without causing danger. Unless they actually run into you, why complain about this supposed "threat" to the adult community. If a skater does injure somebody, then that can and will be dealt with accordingly, regardless of their age.

I don't have a problem with level-based sessions, even when they exclude me. But I don't agree with age-based sessions.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

This is exactly what I mean to say. Yes, averages and probabilities do exist, but generalizations based on them should not.

I don't know skaternum, why was it okay for you to post your opinion on the recent Mr. Edge thread, but it's not okay for me to post mine here?

Discussing opinions is what forums are for. If you don't like it, you don't have to read this thread. Sometimes people do change their opinions - I've changed a lot since I first came here, and if I can help even one person be a little bit more considerate to humanity in general regardless of age, then I've succeeded in today's mission.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Well from my experience there is a big difference between adults and kids. Although I dont' believe adults should get special treatment just because they are adults, they do need some different treatment since most competitive stuff in skating is set up for kids with age limits for the different levels. We can't compete in the kids comps so we do need special adult comps. I would not advocate adult only patches (freestyle) but that presupposes there are no limitations on adults attending the usual patches (freestyle). At my rink there aren't but at some rinks there are.

The differences between adults and kids in general tend to become more marked with increasing age at which the adult starts. This applies much less if the adult had been active in other sports - particularly gymnastics and to a lesser extent dance - as many of the skills for these are transferable, or has been a roller blader as a kid.

We can always spot the adult who learned as a child. Doesn't matter if they learned only for a short time and then took a long break. They will still always have a look of being much more at ease on the ice than any adult who learns as an adult. They may not have the jumps etc but it shows in the basic skating. I have worked long and hard to try to overcome the 'adult skater look' and it is very hard for someone who was not an active sportsperson as a child and started skating in their late 30's.

I started at 38 along with my 8 year old daughter and 10 year old son. We did the same group lessons (which incidentally were my idea - I dragged the kids along because I wanted to skate). Son was a naturally gifted skater who breezed through the levels skipping several along the way. He took private lessons eventually (shared with daughter), never practised, spent only about an hour a week on the ice and still progressed really quickly, reaching UK level 5 (axel, double sal, flying camel etc.) (and competing nationally in pairs too) before quitting at 14.

Daughter was a more average skater and I managed to keep up with her through the learn to skate levels. After that she whizzed past me, even though I was the one more motivated to skate, took more private lessons and practised more. I still skate more than she does yet she is 4 levels ahead of me (and did pairs too with her brother). I did do dance and that helped my basic skating but it will never look like it would have done had I started at 5 or 15 or even 25.

The difference - in free skating - fear and health but mostly fear I think as far as jumps go and that held me back. However in our basic skating there is just no comparison. Take out the jumps and both son and daughter just look comfortable on skates. There is an ease to their skating which I can never emulate so there must be other factors at work on adults. The bad habits of posture and learned behaviour is hard to overcome. As kids they are still learning everything so skating is just one more thing to add to the repertoire. It is acquired much more naturally.

The older you get the more you have learned patterns of behaviour to overcome. A young adult (in their 20's) has less of these while a returning skater no matter the age, has somewhere ingrained, the patterns learned as a youngster including skating. Just like you never forget how to ride a bike I don't think you ever forget how to skate if you learned young. It may take a while to get the hang of it again but they are still way ahead of those who never skated as kids.

Most things are done better by those who learned young including languages, playing instruments etc.

Doesn't mean a high standard can't be reached by the older folk but it definitely is harder to achieve.

Maybe a particularly naturally gifted adult could do better than an untalented youngster (who have the same opprotunities) but in the long run I wouldn't bet on it.

Of course I am still better than those kids who took the same learn to skate course and then gave up but even the least able kid on that course (who is still skating) is way better than me now.

The good things about not having skated as a kid? - well I don't yet have to worry about having lost the ability to do something I could do before, while returning skaters are often bemoaning the fact that they used to be able to do doubles and can't now!

I think adults who think they should be treated just like kids can take that option - skate the standard track and let those of us who are not the least bit insulted by a different standard do our thing.

And Casey I think its funny you saying you are against generalizations when you turn around and say it's the adults who make a big issue out of things. That also has not been my experience.

j

[QUOTE=BatikatII;318105]
Most things are done better by those who learned young including languages, playing instruments etc.

Here is something I completely disagree with. I teach languages, and I know from my personal experience that adults learn faster than kids. Actually the best age for learning foreign languages is late teens, or even twenties. I worked with little kids - five-and-six-year-olds, and boy, was it difficult! Children do pick up certain things fast, but their long-term memory isn't particularly strong, so they forget what they have learned easily.
However, when it comes to skating, children learn faster, of course. But even this rule isn't without exceptions. I know this girl at our rink, she's about 16-17. I saw her last year, when I first started skating, and she was way behind other girls. Now, a year later, she is still practicing the same moves, and it doesn't look like she is getting any better. It's hard to tell why.

At my rink they have Adult Skate early in the morning (they used to have afternoon sessions too, but I think that nobody went). My rink considers adults to be age 13 and up for the purposes of adult skate, and occasionally we get a middle or high-school higher level skater. I think the implication at my rink is that you count as an adult if you are mature and aware of your surroundings.

I love adult skate, primarily because I'm not skating with a constant fear of running over one of the tiny hockey hooligans (because I would win in that crash, and I don't want to squish anyone!). I also love the other adult skaters- totally a great source of role models for the 25-year-old baby of the group! Without the adult skate sessions, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be skating.

*shrug* at the other debate here. The issues all seem too individually based to generalize much.

Oh, I wasn't talking about the judging/competition systems - I don't really have a problem with those - more what bothers me are the age-limited freestyle sessions and general sorts of attitudes that a lot of adult skaters seem to have.

What has yours been? I'm not saying that kids don't do the same thing in reverse, they likely do too, but as of yet, I have only seen one youth skater online post anything negative about adult skaters, while I have seen quite a few adult skaters posting negative bits about younger skaters.

* The only people who have ever gotten upset with me over something that they thought COULD have happened but never did have been adults.

* The only people I've seen wanting a session specific to their age group have been adults (no youth-only sessions that I've seen anyways).

* The only people that I see complaining that they don't get enough consideration (i.e. more adult-specific content in Skating magazine) are adults...

Now I'm not saying that all the kids out there are necessarily perfect, but from what I've been exposed to (which isn't exactly limited), I just see more problems arising from adults, and I'm of the opinion that we as adults should instead be acting as role models rather than whining about how we're not included, don't have exclusive sessions where we don't have to worry about those pesky younger skaters, and so on. Yes, I am making a broad statement - I am generalizing to some degree. However, I have been careful never to say "all adult skaters", but rather, "many that I've seen at local rinks and online"... And, I am making the generalization insofar as I am simply because I am addressing this specific issue right now - it's not a usual part of my postings...

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I used to teach English as a foreign language (and much preferred teaching adults - especially some lovely Japanese ladies I had) as they were so much more fun and you could have an 'adult' (not x-rated! ) conversation with them. And comparing that to 5 year olds is not quite the same as the skating analogy. (I'm talking about those who learned young, not those who are still very young). But in 5 years time when those 5 year olds are 10, they will not only likely be better at the language than the adults who started at the same time but they will likely have no trace of their original language in their accent.

This is what the adult skating thing is like. An accent. If you listen to anyone who has learnt a language as an adult they almost always have a discernible accent from their own language. Those who learnt young can be totally fluent and have no accent when they speak.

This shows in the many Dutch people I met abroad. They nearly all spoke English but those who had learnt very young or had one English parent - then you would never know they were Dutch. Those who had learnt when older had a Dutch accent to their English and it is this that I mean. No doubt the adult Dutch learners could cope with more difficult English words than a 5 year old for example but the 5 year old would speak it like a native and the older person would always sound like a foreigner.

My own kids moved to a school where they were taught entirely in Welsh for a number of years. Son was 6 and daughter was 4. Already there was a difference. Daughter picked it up naturally while son (who is actually the more gifted linguist) had to go to extra lessons. Both of them sounded more like a native Welsh speaker than I did, despite the fact I learnt to hold an adult conversation in Welsh using words they did not understand.

This is where the difference is and I feel it is the same with adult skating. Your skating will always have that adult accent! The older you are when you start the harder it is to overcome that accent and appear as if skating is as natural to you as it looks to most kids that continure skating and that is regardless of your ability to actually perform the skating moves.

Of course I am sure people can point out exceptions as there are to any rule but in general I would think that is the case.

Casey - I think you are being a bit disingenuous here aren't you? Not dissing you mate - just think it should be obvious that they don't need youth only sessions, as basically almost all the sessions are aimed at the youths!

And almost all the skating magazine is aimed at or reporting on young skaters so they dont' need to ask for something they already get!!!

Adult skaters used to get no consideration at all, so it is thanks to those who did complain about being ignored that many countries do now provide for the needs of adult skaters and not simply exclude them altogether and for that we should all (adults anyway!) be grateful!

I think it’s only fair that adults should have separate competitions and training camps.

That’s not to say, though, that adult skaters cannot achieve a high standard.

Personally I think it’s a good thing that here in the UK there’s no distinction between adult and child skaters in testing. Adults have to pass the same test as kids and I totally agree with that; I mean, you’re either a level 5 skater or you’re not surely? I don’t like the idea of skating being sort of ‘dumbed down’ for adults.

Batikat II makes very some good points – I particularly like the analogy about the ‘accent’. I skated for two years as a child with an eighteen-year break, and have recently been told by a few people that I look very ‘comfortable’ on the ice. Lucky, I guess my child skating ‘accent’ helps compensate for my extreme lack of patience, coordination, athletic ability and natural talent lol!

Bottom line – for most adults, skating is a hobby, and one which we can take as seriously or as lightly as we wish. That’s the great thing about it.

S xxx

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There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"

What has my experience with adults been? It's a lot wider and longer than reading this particular board and making generalizations about adults.

Let's see, my experience with adults is ....that some people tend to be negative and complainers...some are more positive....most people exhibit both good and bad traits and some people save their complaints for um, let's see ... A DISCUSSION BOARD as a place to vent and it SAYS NOTHING ABOUT them personally and their outlook, much less ALL ADULTS.

Geesh.

j

Here in the Netherlands, we don't have anything for adults, except 1 or 2 competitions a year, which are artistic skate...

After you're 32, you're out of the nationals track, after you're 36 you're out of all official tracks.


The result? Adults don't skate. Those who do and approach the age of 36 are heard saying things like, if I can't compete, why would I even bother training so hard anymore?

Where as some of them are doing doubles at age 32 after skating just 4 years and never skating in their lives before.

Well, our rink's fairly new, so none of us are really THAT great . . . and certainly plenty of room on the freestyle ice . . . I have noticed there are both tentative and aggressive (not really the right word but you know what I mean) children AND adult skaters . . . my twin sons and I all started learning at the same time, they were 6 and I was 37 . . . we have all progressed at our own rates. One son went the figure skating route and is working on his lutz and loop right now, the other went the hockey route - he can skate OK but certainly not as well as his brother and I . . . well, I am somewhere in between. I do wish I had been able to learn as a kid but hey, I live in the south and we didn't have any rinks, so that's just the way the cookie crumbles!!

My pet peeve as an "adult skater" is . . . seems like everytime *I* go down, I am apt to get an immediate and concerned "are you OK??" from the instructor . . . yet my DS is continuously hitting this ice and it's just expected he'll jump right back up and try again . . . now if I fell over backwards and hit my head . . .yeah, ask me if I'm OK . . . but if I just fell out of a sit spin and am sitting there laughing . . . yeah, don't waste your breath, I'm OK!! Once you get to the jump and spin level, no matter whether you're an adult or a kid, you're going to fall once in a while or you're being way too tentative!

I have noticed that I get a lot of concern when I go down - not just the coach - everyone tends to come over but to be fair, when I go down, I am not going to just jump right back up like a kid. It just looks scaryier when an older person goes down, and quite honestly, we are more likely to injure ourselves when we go down than a kid is.

Of course I'm almost 50. That's the troulble with talking "adult skating" - I think when you start hitting 40 and above, it's a different ball game.

j

I think it's kind of cute when they ask that. After five or ten falls, though, they don't even glance my way anymore!

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Oh definitely . . .and I'm wasn't meaning those really bad (& unplanned!!) "crash & burn" falls . . . more like, oops, I'd better sit down now before I hurt myself!!!