I have to say, that occurred to me. No way am I assuming I can keep going up the ladder of test. Bronze moves may be as far as I ever can go. I may never look like I'm ready for silver, but that shouldn't mean I can't pass Bronze.

j

No it may not be a straight fail. The skater may have mastered some of the MIF on the test, and may have almost mastered other elements on the test. Which puts the test as a borderline test.

So, here's the deal. Skater does the test. They are sitting at .1 under passing average on the test form. The general rule of thumb is that we don't mark a test retry when the score is .1 under passing average.

So, I take a deep breath and look again at the comments I wrote on the sheet to refresh my mind. Is there any single element I saw that if I asked for a reskate, would probably be executed just enough better for me to give the skater that extra tenth? Also going through my mind is was there any element that was enough passing average for me to mark it up an extra tenth and pass the test. If the answer to both of those thoughts is no, then I have to re-evaluate my scoring of the test and decide what to do. And if I decide to mark the test retry, then I will adjust scoring/comments accordingly and often I will put a comment on the bottom of the form saying "needs a bit more work in XYZ..."

Hope that makes sense.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

that makes much more sense. Because it seems in this example the skater WAS below the passing average- just at the level that could get a "pass". So as a judge, you would see if there was a way you could let them pass, and if not- mark them a little down a bit more, so they understand they have things to work on- rather than feel like they just missed it and go screwed. The first example made it seem like they were say, just barely OVER the passing average, but got moved down.

I know judges aren't out to get skaters- but it was a bit disconcerting to hear that some take into account the elements on the NEXT test when judging the current one.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

A marginal or borderline test is usually the one that is sitting at that dreaded 0.1 below passing average.

If the full sheet of marks is sitting at passing average, then they pass. Simple.

Most tests that are right at passing average will have some strong points, and also some weak points, but the good and the not-so-good balance out to be a pass in that case.

But the point still remains that a skater who eeks by on a MIF test with a pass by the skin of the teeth will frequently have to work much harder to achieve a necessary level of skill sufficient to pass the next higher up MIF test. Assuming of course that that is their goal.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Worst scenario is what happened to me - I failed my level 3 Dance moves (deservedly so - I skated badly, and it was always going to be a bit of a long shot anyway, but if I'd skated as well as I was able, I'd have scraped through), and then they changed the system. The new level 3 moves aren't actually possible for me right now, as they involve a spiral sequence which I am too stiff and inflexible to tackle. It can be - and has been - done by adults my age, but that was before they said you had to get your knee, not just your foot, above your arse. I can get my foot up there on one side, but not my knee, and doubt I ever will.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Thanks to Jenlyon60 for being able to clearly write what her thinking process is when judging. It is very similar to mine... I just wasn't able to explain it as well. Like I said before, I really want every skater to pass the test and will sometimes start by believing an element is passable, when it's actually very borderline.. i.e. some power, bad pattern, not held long enough but posture is pretty good, skater doesn't have much flow and the extension on a spiral (for example) is NOT QUITE at hip level. Obviously each of those things must be considered individually on each test to decide if that element is passing. If you have a test that only has one element that way, and the rest of the test is good, it's a passing test. I would probably write more comments about the things that need improvement on the one shaky element so the skater can keep working on them. But if the majority of the test is skated that way, the skater hasn't really mastered the elements. So in my mind, the skater should not pass the test... and if the skater has not mastered those elements, then the skater really is not ready to START working on the next test.

I've been on both sides of the boards for a marginal test... so I know how frustrating it is to miss passing by just a bit. On one freestyle test I took years ago, I two-footed a loop during the program, then my free foot blade just skimmed the ice on the reskate. Yes, I touched down, no I didn't deserve to pass (and I was REALLY upset with myself over that!) and no, I did not pass... by 0.2, on the technical mark, because a loop was required. Could the judges have tweaked it to make me pass? Sure -- I had done a lutz in the program (which was not required) and that might have been enough to increase the technical mark... but I still would have known I didn't deserve to pass on that particular skate. I certainly wished I had passed the test though... since it took me until this summer to actually pass the moves test I could have avoided, by passing that FS test. On the other hand, I did need to master those moves, too. It's made me a better skater -- and helped me prove to myself I am stubborn enough to conquer those moves!

I had a judge give me a test. My club set a criteria to be able to skate on freestyle, and it was coincidentally a criteria that would have excluded most of the adult skaters. So my coach put my test in, on a wing and a prayer, it would have been marginal at best and I had a terrible test I was so nervous. There wasn't anything in there that a judge could say that I could skate and was just having a bad day.

The judge passed me. To this day, I still can't explain it, and I've seen the judge a few times since and have passed other things, but have never had the nerve to ask about it.

Going back to the original suggestion of submitting tests on video . . .

If you did that, without immediate feedback, then there would be no opportunity for reskates. You'd have to get it right the first time or expect not to pass if there was one mistake even if you could have corrected it with a second try and the rest of the test was good enough.

Are you talking about the Bronze FS test? If the 2-footed loop was the only mistake, the judge should have asked you to reskate it. One missed element (actually 2, in the case of FS tests) can be fixed and made passable with a reskate. And if you did a lutz, then really, that should have sufficed for the jump requirement, as you need to do a toe, sal, waltz-toe, and any other single jump.

Or is this the Silver FS test? Either way, you should have been asked to reskate the loop, if that was the only mistake.

When I tested Bronze FS, I 2-footed my loop, which was my only mistake, and I was asked for a reskate, landed it (albeit on my 2nd attempt, but still within the rules) and passed. Judges also have the option (as stated in the rulebook) of using the presentation mark to pass an FS test when there is only 1 "serious error" present.

This discussion about judging has been very interesting, and I've enjoyed reading the comments from our judges here on the forum regarding borderline tests. Thank you for contributing.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Maybe you skated better than you thought you did and maybe the judge perceived your nerves and gave you the benefit of the doubt! Yea

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

It's true that the whole testing structure would have to be different if it were all done on video. It was just an idea and people have brought up very valid point. To the poster that worried that they would have to travel a great distanct to get to a "testing center" - my original idea was to have them set up as test sesssions at your normal rink as usual, but with videographers instead of judges.

Of course re-skates and people taking multiple tests on one day would be a problem. I was just looking for more even-ness of judging - and of course the feedback would come much later than it usually does, which is probably not good for learning in general.

So after reading through all of these posts I have determined that it's not really a good idea, BUT maybe a formal video critique-service would be a good idea. If this were a paid position I would be happy to do it!

Thanks for playing with me "outside the lobe" everyone!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

It looks like they let her reskate the loop and she put her foot down (tap down or just slight scrape of the free foot) - it's too bad, but that's what happens... don't worry, most judges are holding their breath hoping you will not it clean on the reskate!!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Ooops! Sorry about that. That's what happens when I read too fast. Thanks for correcting me, IceDancer.

Hmmm, well the judges still had the option of using the 2nd mark to pass the test, and if it was just a slight scrape of the free foot....

The judges did give you 2 chances to land it in the reskate, didn't they Thin-Ice?

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Since we're saying what we wish was different about the test structure - I wish MITF were like dances in that you could test one or two elements at a time. It's very discouraging when one element holds you up. It would be very encouraging to be able to pass at least one element.

It might not work for kids but I wish they'd consider it for the adult track, we tend to do things in bits and drabs and take years for a test as it is.

j

I would definitely say that I'm in favor of regular test sessions, but I'm beginning to wish that I could send in a tape of my junior moves test. I originally tested junior in February, and was close to passing but the judges wanted to see a bit more attack. Between preparing for AN and waiting for a gold panel test session, I won't be re-testing until September or November. I can see how it would be nice to send in the tape whenever you're ready instead of waiting for a test with the necessary judging panel to be offered in your area, especially for those high level tests.

You can't in the UK - the compulsory dance tests each comprise two dances, and you have to pass both of them or you fail the entire test. Plus there's a "passing average" for both dances you have to reach. Variation/Original dance (starts of as the first and moves to the 2nd at Level 3), Free Dance and Skating Moves are all separate tests, so it costs quite a lot of money to get a "full level". At Free Skating we have three tests at each level, not two - Elements, Free and Moves (again, separate tests that attract a separate fee, although most people take their Elements and Free tests on the same day; and I've known people fail Elements and go on to pass Free).

Plus we have more levels than you do - 9 or 10, and you have to get the first 6 before you can train as a judge, and if you have less and want to start coach training it takes a lot longer.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I guess two dances isn't so bad, most people do two at a time anyway. But I sure like it broken down so I feel some sort of accomplishment when I get one dance at least done. I'm pretty sure I could pass the peremiter crossovers on my Bronze moves and it I could just do that...it would really put a fire in my belly rather than now, when it looks like mohawks are more than a year away from being passable...plus I have to keep working on everything to keep them up to par... Sigh...

j

You can take figure tests in 2 parts from the 5th test to 8th test. There's a part A and a part B to each (or you can take the whole thing). It helped for the "drips and drabs" mentioned here and also helped when a skater was preparing for Regionals and the draw was going to be from part A or B because the skater could work on that 1/2 and pass it and get ready for Regionals at the same time.

I wouldn't be opposed if they allowed some of the high level MIF tests to be broken down like that. I have 3 moves that are decent on my Novice test, 2 borderline, and 1 skunky right now. If I could pass each one individually, I'd be 1/2 done! LOL!

Actually, that's not true any more. You have to achieve a minumum mark on each dance, but it's quite a long way below the passing standard (about 0.5, I think), and as long as you don't drop below that, and achieve the passing total overall, then you pass. But if you're that far below passing one dance, the chances of making it up on the other are minimal, unless you're well above standard, but have a fall, or something.

Fiona

With regards to MITF, Skate Canada floated a proposal to coaches this past year about splitting up Skills tests. Currently they are three exercises and all have to be satisfactory to pass the test, there is a reskate allowed for one exercise.
There's been no word from Skate Canada since that survey but it was interesting to know that they are considering it.

I thought about that when I was trying to pass Bronze MIF - I passed 2 moves the first time I tested (and then failed one of those the 2nd time I tested - a tougher judging panel, that was made up of dance judges, and it was the 5-step, need I say more?) and then 3 the second time (2 of which I hadn't passed the first time, so it would have been nice not to have to keep practicing moves that I'd passed (and might fail the next time - lol) while trying to get the blasted power 3's up to par. Of course, it still would have taken me 3 tries to pass the entire test.

But the problem with that is you wouldn't be able to use 1 move that was above passing level to boost you up to an overall pass if another move wasn't quite passable. On the Silver test, I am trying to milk those spirals for all they're worth - lol!

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Oh yea. That's a good point!

j

At this point I think it would be good to use a videotape of a test as a learning tool for the skater. I would love to be able to go back over a test with a skater and/or their coach and point out what I saw on a test and how I would want it skated differently.

There have been a few times in the past months where I would have love to have an instant replay of something I saw on a test, just to make sure I really saw it!!

OTOH, if someone saw a replay of my test last week, they would have seen me touch my foot down on the right Power-3 (my nemesis) which I'm sure no one saw because they were too busy writing down just how crappy the first two lobes of the move were! Lucky for me because Ireally didn't want to have to reskate that one move, of all of them!

Interesting discussion everyone!

Oh - I just wanted to mention that "back in the day" (the '60's) when you took your 6th figure, you had to take your Novice freestyle with it IF you passed the figures portion. If then you didn't pass the freestyle, you would have to take the whole thing over again, including the figures. I remember people totally freaking out about and us all holding our breath when someone took a freestyle test (and back then there were no freestyle tests before Novice). A LOT has changed since then, some of it for the better I would say!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

That's all I can think it was. I think that the judge was sending a message, and I was the lucky one. If the club wanted adult skaters to have freeskate tests, then the judge was going to "give" those tests. I don't have a video of that test, if I did, I would have burned it. The judge should have burned it as to avoid questioning of why it passed.

Back to videos - The downside of the entire videoing concept is having coaches, skaters and parents comparing videos and then speculating on why skater X passed and skater Y didn't. Already with the new judging system there is extensive nit picking on the summary sheets, I wouldn't want to see that in testing.

I'm sure this already exists even without the videos - "Why didn't my little darling so-and-so pass when that other little darling so-and-so didn't" has been speculated through the ages in skating. Usually the skater knows why they didn't pass even if no one else does.

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/