Apologies if this has been asked before.

Years ago there used to be Walleys and Loops. Toe-walleys and toe-loops.
Same jump, different take-off edge. Apparently it was decided they were too similar and that take-off edges were often cheated. So walleys and toe-walleys scored no differently to the loop and toe-loop, with the result that almost no-one ever bothered doing the harder walley.

So why hasn't this happened with Lutzes & Flips?

At a recent judging workshop, a judge commented that they basically rely on the list of elements a skater submits prior to competition to know which jump the skater is attempting and therefore how to score it.

When you look at all the Flutzes & Lips going on, why haven't they just lumped them together like they did with Walleys and Loops?

(guess who struggles with the Flutzes)

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Katz

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on toe wallies, was the entrance forward, like the toeloop?

I think lutz is harder to do wrong than a toe wally, because you start backwards, on the outside edge and hold it for some time. Toe wallies happen quicker, right? (as in, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a toe wally and toeloop if you weren't really concentrating). Whereas the lutz is really distinguishable from the flip, even to a non skater.

I've never done a toe wally, so can't speak about it, but lutzes are so much fun (guess what my best jump is??). how could you want to abolish such a great jump?


on an side note, lips?? HOW can you do a lip? flutz I can understand, but lip????

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Lips...I'm not sure how one Lips but I wish I knew. I can land a lutz but a flip. If I knew how to cheat the stupid thing maybe I could consistently land one. Unfortunately I am pre-bronze (due to my utter inability to spin and the fact that I simply cannot do a mohawk) and I have to do a flip not a lutz...GRRR

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I think, a lip is where you do a lutz from a flip entrance and, presumably, when you're supposed to do a flip. I actually did that for a while and at the time I swore it was easier that way cuz there was just no way I could jump a flip, but a lutz from a flip entrance, sure... Later when I learned the flip I started flutzing so I have no idea why I thought it was easier at the time.

What it actually took for me to start doing the flip from an inside edge was get on a deep left forward inside edge first, then tap the ice with the right toepick to push off onto a left forward outside edge, then 3-turn to a left backward inside edge and then jump the flip. From just a 3-turn it wouldn't work.

Usually between a lutz and a flip, the intent is more obvious. Toe loops and toe wallies really look the same and happen much quicker.

I'm starting to get my lutzes to flutz less...my coach and I have really been working on the timing and entry. Aside from cutting down the time to set it up, giving me less time to over think and come up in my knee, what seems to help is that as I go into it, to keep my shoulders from squaring, is to think of it as just a LBO counter (because really that's all a lutz is--a LBO counter in the air). You just pull the free leg back, pick and take off rather than pull it back to help you check the turn. I don't know if that will help for most people since you usually learn a lutz long before you learn counters (which don't show up until the novice MIF test), but depending on where you're at it's something to think about.

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Well, at least when it comes to loops vs walleys, it's basically impossible to do a double/triple walley, which is probably why it just became a footwork/connecting step.

Toe loops vs toe walleys, well, I've never seen anyone do a true toe walley, so I can't really say if the toe walley is hard to do as a multi-rotational jump. I'd imagine it is quite difficult to really do a multi-rotational toe-walley. It seems like it would lend itself to rotating the upper body far ahead of the lower body, dropping a shoulder, and some really nasty falls.

I say all that because maybe that's why lutzes haven't been blended with flips. It really is possible to do a true triple lutz, while it is definitely not possible to do a triple walley, and I don't know about a true toe-walley either.

Does anyone have video of someone doing a true double/triple toe-walley? I don't just mean the toe-walley entrance, but really someone doing a LFO 3 and stepping to a RBI edge and jumping?

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I don't think I've ever seen any of the kids at my rink do a real double or triple on the correct take-off edge.

I actually enter my toe loops from a LFO 3 and switch the foot when I'm working on my (very few pitiful underrotated) double attempts because for me it's easier to get more power going into it, no intent to toe-wally at all. I bet that's the case with a lot of people.

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Not to knock anyone out there, but from what I've observed over the last few years, I'm not convinced that a lot of developing skaters ever really learn how to hold a strongly counter-rotated LBO (for CCW) or RBO (for CW) edge.

Many of the "long entry edge" entrances seem to be barely outside edges, or flat or wandering back and forth.

Note: this is just my observation on a limited subset of skaters that I've seen at various test sessions and club/non-qual competitions.

Given the issues I see on many Intermediate and Novice MIF tests with the counter-rotated turns [brackets in Int. and counters on Nov.], I'm not surprised.

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I'll vote to get rid of lutzes when adult skaters over 30 who have had children are no longer required to ever have to do a camel spin.

If you're a skater who lips your Flips and flutzes your Lutz , just list you Lutz as a Flip and your Flip as a Lutz when filling out the Program Content Sheet. What do you judges think about that?

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Yeah, I always had that problem 20+ years ago. When I examined my tracings, right at the last moment, my lutzes were inside edge therefore flips, and my flips went to the outside edge, so technically lutzes. If doing the long set up entry on a lutz though, the intent is clearly for it to be a lutz.

These days I am strongly resisting coach's insistence that I do the long entry, and am doing them from a left mohawk/scissor step onto the back outside edge. One reason is that it is almost impossible to practise the long entry on our 1/4 size rink in any session. The other is that I just don't feel the right moment to jump - it's more like "here comes the barrier, am I going to jump or not" rather than "now! reach/pick/jump".

I just wonder though, when technically the jump is the same and only the take off edge is different, whether it ought not just be a flip.

Amen sister! At my age & size, camels are not a pretty sight.

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Katz

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Assuming you're a ccw skater, enter the flip as you normally do. As you pick in with your right toe-pick, roll your left ankle to the left (outside the circle) so that you are now on an outside edge to turn it into a lip.

Are there many skaters who lip AND flutz though? It always seems like skaters with strong lutz's lip and those with strong flips flutz, they favor a specific edge. So it doesn't help. Or I haven't been paying much attention to edge calls.

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I can't think of any elite skater who both flutzes and lips. It seems like elite skater usually just have one bad jump that isn't her favorite.

I like to think that a skater flutzes, because she has a weak lutz. Not sure why one would lip though since technically it should make the flip jump harder, LOL.

I had a tendancy to do a rocker instead of a three turn into my double flip, which often turns it into a lutz. I can't recall ever getting docked for it, but I don't think they look that carefully at the edges on the ice for flips. The lutz is more critiqued.

Honestly, it wasn't until I started coaching that I really started paying close attention to the entrance edges. My personal opinion? It all stems from removing figures from required training. Even if they weren't scored in competition, they ought to still have been tested. There has been a serious downturn in edge control and quality since then (myself included - I started testing USFSA right about when the change occured).

I also did the toe-walley instead of the toe-loop, and my edge was actually inside. I could never really master the toe-loop by itself (though as the second jump in combination it was fine... strange as that is). Usually, the toe-walley and toe-loop are interchangeable in competition and testing, so it's still there, not abolished, it just isn't recognized on its own merits.

The lutz, done properly, is easily recognizable, whereas the toe-walley is not (and I've never seen a multi-revolution walley).