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I don't really know much about ISI (I'm British) but from various posts it would seem that they have much stricter rules on what is allowed in their competitions. Is it possible that for this particular competition the judges were not supposed to, or not allowed to, take the connecting moves into account in the marking and the other skaters did the actual elements slightly better than your daughter, even if they had no connecting moves? I can't think of any other explanation unless the other skaters were indeed more known (and much as I hate to think this happens, there are occasions when it really seems to be the only explanation for some odd results that occur) and were marked up on that basis.

Maybe your daughter would be more suited to USFSA competitions where there is definitely credit given for presentation and higher level elements. But you will still come across competitions where the results seem completely at odds with the reality. I guess the new marking system is supposed to address this.

The main thing at your daughters level though is that she enjoyed the competition and will go on to do more and have fun and hopefully get marked fairly in future.

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

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The thing is that in any comp, ISI or USFSA, there will be some results you won't understand. Some will be fair, some won't. It's just the nature of a judged sport. There's bias, whether it's name related, club related, or simply related to what a particular judge likes in way of a particular song, program, costume, anything really. It just happens. ESPECIALLY in ISI, which is deemed a recreational institution and is, as you said, judged by coaches who don't have any judge training. Was she for sure allowed a move from FS1? Did she do more elements than she was supposed to? Did the music go longer than the limit by even a second? How was her costume? If all these were fine, then it was probably just a matter of preference, or a small technical thing like depth of edges, posture..the list goes on and on and I thinkt he most important thing is that she was happy with 3rd, instead of sitting there saying "but I was better, why why why??" because so many kids do. Sounds like your kid's already understood this sport and that all that matters is being happy to be a part of it and happy with the performances. Better medals will come in time!!

-FadedStardust

:}

I'm sorry your daughter didn't get the results that you, and her coach, felt she deserved. But I am quite sure that you celebrated with her, and told her how proud you were of her, just as enthusiastically as if she had.

The thing about competitions is that you can't control what the judges do, and you can't control what the other skaters do, so all you can do is go out there and skate your absolute best. It's incredibly disheartening when you feel you've skated a blinder and still place last (tell me about it!!!), but the important thing is to go out there and skate. And your daughter did, and I'm sure you're really proud of her.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

thanks :}

Being proud of herself is the most important thing.

Indeed it is. twokidsskatemom, I must say, since you initiated a conversation about it, that I think you're obsessing over the placements. This is a local ISI competition, not US Nationals! The kids aren't even in FS1 yet. Your kids are going to pick up on your concerns, which won't be good. Just let them skate and enjoy their programs.

ISI holds seminars for their professional members, which often include judge training. I've attended a few, and we watched videos of actual competitions, were instructed on the scoring rules, and then scored what we saw. There was then a discussion of each skater and the scoring we came up with. ISI judges also must pass judging tests. Additionally, there may have been things you were not aware of that detracted from your daughter's score, or added to that of the other skaters.

I just judged a small basic skills in-house competition last week. I knew about 4 of the skaters, none of them well, and the same was true for the other 2 judges, so I do not believe there was any bias. I remember one little girl who "looked like a skater" and skated after two others who were fairly gawky looking. It turned out though, that the others made points in the individual elements that the "skater" did not. The "skater" turned out to have only one strong element, and was either third or fourth (only four in each event). I actually do not know, because I just judged each element on its own merits and let the chips fall where they may. I knew when the event was over, that my first impression of the "skater" had been totally overturned.

OTOH, I've attended USFSA competitions where there clearly seemed to be bias at work, so I would never rule that out.

I'm glad you and your coach soft pedalled it. It's so important for the kids to learn good sportsmanship. At the little comp last week, afterwards, one coach came into the office, where we three judges, the skating director and assistant director were, and wanted to know why his student came in second instead of first (out of two). We had just been told by the tabulator that we had all been in agreement on the placement of all the skaters! One of the other judges spoke up with the reason, and the coach began arguing with her about how his student's spin was so much better! This guy buttonholed me on my way to my car (we know each other), and argued about it! I'm sure I will be hearing either the student or the mom saying "he should have gotten first" next week. What a lot of fuss over nothing, and what a bad example to set. So sad.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by skaternum
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nprove her skills.

She got 3 medals and you're complaining about it? What will you do when one day she doesn't medal at all? It will happen, trust me.

IMO this post merits repeating. Good post Dbny! I have to go back several years to recall our first basic skills competition experiences, and I have to say they were the most difficult for this "skatemom".

You are learning one of the hardest lessons for a parent, and that is how to handle the situation when you feel your skater was "robbed". It will happen many times over the years.

Part of your job is to assess the competition, and decide if it is well run and worth your while to attend again the next year.

It will get easier in certain ways as your skater moves up the levels. The differences in skating skills becomes more apparent. You will be a more experienced skateparent. Goals will change for your skater. Sometimes the goal will be just to put out a new program or element with no expectations of medals.

My advise is to trust the judgement of your coach, and learn as much as you can about what you are watching. It would be great if you took up skating yourself! (I'm always trying to convince parents to skate too).

Anyways....I do know exactly how you feel. Sometimes you will never figure out why the results came out the way they did. You really have to focus on your skater, and did they meet their goals?

Just a reminder: you started this thread and even indicated that you "know how it will sound." I'm merely affirming that to some of us, it sounds like you think it sounds.

Here's why I think you need to lighten up a little:

So what if she comes in dead last? Every time. Is that okay? This still implies that you have a preconceived idea of where she ought to place. It's okay if she doesn't come in first but it's not okay if it's lower than ... what? second?

This was the main reason I think you're going a little overboard on the issue. Kids do pick up on what's going on with the adults around them. I've been around skating for a long time, and I'm constantly amazed at how willing some people are to ascribe poor results to all sorts of things like name recognition, costumes, music, etc. Most judges see so many skaters they don't really keep track of who is who. Sometimes judges just think one skater skated better.

And yes, I do think the level of the skater matters to a point. I could understand getting upset about the results of a qualifying event, where your advancement to the next level of competition is dependent on your placement at this one, but this was a fun ISI local comp. It sounds to me like the goal for your daughter was to place well. Not to skate well, but to place well. If you're really interested in her doing skills correctly and improving, just let her work with the coach instead of trying to figure out what she should do to do better at the next competition. If you get this worked up at this level, what will it be like when she's competing in Pre-juvenile?

And finally, asking for our advice about why your daughter placed where she did is futile. We didn't see the event, and most of the posters here aren't judges or coaches. Anything you get here is pure speculation.

.

I dont think it was bias that your daughter faced. Honestly, maybe the judges felt the other kids did better. Sometimes the best polished skaters aren't the "cutest" ones especially at the low level. Sometimes its those kiddies that go out, look confused pretty much cry, or fall down that everyone makes a big stink about.

I wasn't tehre so its hard to say why she placed lower. But honestly, I doubt it was bias. And if you honestly think it was, don't do that particular competition next year.

Trust me, in the skating world, you will come across worse things than this. Just shrg your shoulders and move on.

This was the main reason I think you're going a little overboard on the issue. Kids do pick up on what's going on with the adults around them. I've been around skating for a long time, and I'm constantly amazed at how willing some people are to ascribe poor results to all sorts of things like name recognition, costumes, music, etc. Most judges see so many skaters they don't really keep track of who is who. Sometimes judges just think one skater skated better.

its funny, i read a thread in the adult skating that alot of people do think somtimes its names, music ect.that is why i asked in the first place.Even her COACH who has been skating longer than you, thought so.We travled 500 miles for this one and have to travel if she wants to conpete due to where we live at.
i was just asking cause if ISI is more that way than usfsa than maybe we would just stick with USfsa.
And unless we talk about it in front of her, how would you know she would pick it up? you dont know me or anything about us at all.
I wasnt upset cause she didnt win, i was upset cause I saw the others skaters and so did my dd.
Thanks everyone else for their helful advice, It did help.

that is great advice thanks made me feel better.

And finally, asking for our advice about why your daughter placed where she did is futile. We didn't see the event, and most of the posters here aren't judges or coaches. Anything you get here is pure speculation.



ummmm the name of this forum is called parents/coaches.Guess i was looking for answers from parents who have been there or coaches.I didnt think you had a skating child right now or was a coach.The people who gave me the best help were the ones who had kids skating or who do teach.For all of them i say thanks alot
sorry i got snippy,it was so not worth it for me and out of place.Guess having a 3yo who doesnt sleep and going through peri menapause isnt a good mix

We have attended competition just to "be seen" by the judges. It's not so much name recognition, but just a visual recognition that this skater has been out there in the competitive scene awhile and has paid their dues, so to speak. Over time you will become familiar with the skaters, as do the judges, and you will be able to see their progress. You will know when they skate up to their potential, or have a bad day.

This may not be the case in this basic skills competition, but it's something you will become aware of over time.

You are going to suspect bias many times at competition. You will wonder if there was a home club advantage. You will wonder if it mattered what coach was standing by the boards. You will wonder if the judges hated the music. You will see that one judge in particular might give lower placements than the majority, and wonder if they are biased against your club. You'll never be able to prove any of it.

I'm sure you'll find this to be the case in both ISI and USFSA. It's inevitable in a sport like this. You have to focus on the positives that the sport can provide.

From one skating mom to another, don't worry about things like this, please! I doubt that recognition at this level is a factor, so many other things could be. It makes more sense that recognition would be an issue at higher levels, but really, at this level it's all fun, and your daughter seems like she thought it was.

Truthfully, I'm irked about your coach feeding your frustration, and not injecting a little reality into all of this. That strikes me as unprofessional. I know my child's coaches have had skating parents who wanted to to ask the judges why they did this or that, and the coaches would tell them go ahead, if they wanted to get a reputation for that kind of nonsense, but they would not coach their children anymore. It's the coach's job to handle that kind of communication, and an experienced coach will know that you win some and you lose some, and you are not likely to endear your child to the judges by complaining about a little competition. It won't do the coach's reputation any good, either. I know you weren't planning on complaining to the judges, but your coach should not be grasping for explanations that indicate politics or bias at such a low level. Your daughter will be at a competition sometime where she does not deserve to win and does. As the saying goes, what goes around comes around!

very very true :}

You know, this has become quite stupid, but I'm going to respond one last time. Probably a bad idea but what the heck.

"I didnt ask YOU why she placed the way she did !!! "
No, you just described a situation where you can't figure out why she placed where she did and said, "So, anyone thoughts?" I had some thoughts. You didn't like them.

"Sorry for the ? since you all know much more thasn some stupid parent.Adult skaters seem to be that way."
This is rude and uncalled for.

"its funny, i read a thread in the adult skating that alot of people do think somtimes its names, music ect.that is why i asked in the first place."
And if they think that, they're just as wrong. Means nothing. Yes, judges are human, but they usually have a very good reason for how they place skaters in a group.

"ummmm the name of this forum is called parents/coaches.Guess i was looking for answers from parents who have been there or coaches.I didnt think you had a skating child right now or was a coach."
I've both taught and judged at competitions like that. I didn't realize giving birth was a prerequisite here.

Quote from Bogie88 sums it up: "I know you weren't planning on complaining to the judges, but your coach should not be grasping for explanations that indicate politics or bias at such a low level."

Yep, fine when Bogie says it, but not skaternum... <yawn>