I attended a Free skating competition today and was very impressed by the standard of novice skaters out there ..... however ..... I was 'slightly' disconcerted to see that in the 'Beginners' (ie have no tests/ungraded) class there were kids doing CLEAN Lutzes! Should this be allowed? Should there be a limit on the jumps that 'beginners' can attempt? Should something be done about it? Does it really matter?

My view is that, yes, it DOES matter, this class was for beginners and some of the 'true' beginners out there were pretty intimidated having to follow someone flying around the rink doing all jumps up to Lutz (and, who, incidentally are working on their axels!). The judges 'had' to mark up for technical merit, of COURSE they did ...... but surely this is just a blatant attempt to win prizes! Further up the classes it becomes more blurred when the classes are related to test levels but SURELY a beginner is a beginner!

I'd be interested to know how you guys feel about this! I don't have any 'investment' in this as I don't have any kids but felt that it was a bit of a bum deal for the poor kids who were taking part in their first competition and who were trying out their waltz jumps for the first time!

L x

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The best whisper is a click

That's how USFSA runs things. I personally think it stinks and is a good reason to go ISI. The problem with ISI, which limits skills to the level passed, is that the elements required are so rigid that there is very little variation in programs. I find ISI competitions pretty boring. I know one school that has all the kids at a give level doing the same program. My daughter would rebell against that for sure. ISI does allow "uncaptured" elements, which are those that are not required in any test, but because all test elements are required, there is little time for anything else.

I recently had to tell one pre-teen who was skating no-test in a large USFSA competition, and who had only a "cheat-cow", that she would be competing against girls with axels. You all know where she came in. I hope she had a good time anyway, haven't seen her since.

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Even in ISI, this occurs-- Lynne, here in the US we usually call it "sandbagging." Its especially blatant at the higher basic levels (Delta) or in the early Freestyle levels, especialy in artistic and interpretive programs. You have a genuine Freestyle 1 who gets clobbered by someone in Freestyle 3 or 4 who can do the waltz, half flip and two foot spin without thinking about it. Then in artistic or interpretive, you'll have a kid with only half jumps competing against others with not only solid sals and toes, but good flips, loops and lutzes. It can also be very blatant with Adults who'll skate the same level over and over just to get that gold medal. Sometimes its caught by judges who know the skater and will penalize appropriately, but not always.

I currently am working on ISI Freestyle 2, and will competing at Freestyle 1 this season. That's how I've always done it--competed the level below the one I'm currently working on. To me that's fair. Heck, I have a slew of gold medals already because I usually competed against the book at the basic levels because of my age. I'm looking forward to having competition this year and seeing how I stack up!!!

The basic problem here in the US is that we put so much value on winning. Look at Sasha Cohen, she had a major comeback this year after injury, yet, if you listen to her, she's disappointed that she didn't win Olympic Gold and she only talks about being on the top step of the podium, not just getting on the Worlds or Olympic podium for the first time. Michelle Kwan is the most decorated skater in US history, a true legend in the sport, yet, many consider her a failure or a "choker" because she tried for Olympic Gold twice and missed it. Yeesh, like Silver and Bronze Olympic medals are signs of failure!!! But, that's the American ethic--to quote Nike, I believe, you don't WIN the silver, you LOSE the gold. This attitude filters down to both adults and kids in sports. Look at the behavior some parents have exhibited when they think their child should have won, both in skating and in team sports. Look at Tonya and Nancy. Its sad when you really think about it.

Beth, who is most proud of the SILVER medal she took at an ISI Interpretive skate where she was the lowest level skater of three who decided to compete against each other for fun, even though we skated at three different levels.

Initially I voted that the higher level skater should be able to compete, but only allowed to do limited elements.
Then I changed it to : should be disqualified.

I wouldn't like to be competing (at a club competition for instance) if "held back" skaters were going out doing great axels, when I'm trying hard to pull off a flip.
It's not fair, but it seems universal.

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MEL
Absolute Skating

Funnily enough I was talking to a mum at the rink today about this very subject. She has a true beginner and she is thinking of entering him in competitions and wanted to know what he'd be up against. In my experience it is quite common for skaters to be held back in order to win medals. Sometimes it seems that the skater/coach/parents have to make a choice either to hold back on tests in order to be competitive, or to take the tests that equate to their ability but knowing that this makes it unlikely they will do well in competition. (I'm not talking about the odd obviously exceptionally talented skaters here but the general mass of skaters)
There is an added complication in that many young skaters can do the jumps and spins but their basic skating is pretty poor - some coaches will push them through the skating tests (and under the new test system it is easier to pass as good elements can compensate for the poor ones)which means they are competing with skaters with the same jumps and spins in their repertoire but don't do so well because of the poor basics/presentation. Other coaches like to wait until the skaters' basic skating/footwork is of a level more consistent with their jumping abilities. Some of these can land an axel or double salchow even but the coach feels they are not ready to test (believing that there is more to skating than jumps and spins and quite right too IMHO). One of the problems therefore is that the technical jumps and spins mark tends to outweigh the presentation mark and these kids win.
I can see three ways this might be addressed - though I know it's highly unlikely it will be by the skating associations
1. Limit the programme content to be up to and including elements from the level above the test held (eg. a level 2 skater could include elements from levels 1, 2 and 3 but no elements from the level 4 tests (UK tests)) This already happens in some interclub competitions here and would seem to be the simplest and most effective method. It could apply to the lower levels where 'sandbagging' seems most common.
2. A skater who is obviously skating well above the standard could be required to test the next level after a certain number of competitions (eg if judges at 3 competitions agree the skater is well above standard they would be required to test the next level) This would be harder to implement as there would have to be records kept and again there would have to be a decision whether it applied to just the jumps and spins or would it have to include general presentation too.
3. The presentation mark could be weighted so that the basic skating and presentation counted for more, which decreases the advantage got by having an axel in a begginner level class. I have seen this done in several Open competitions here and it does encourage the kids to work on their footwork and presentation which I think is a very good thing!!

I don't think there is any way it can be prevented altogether but it is something that should be addressed as currently far too many people percieve the whole sport to be 'unfair'.

At a local summer competition, the prejuvenile girls group had one skater with a not-so-attractive lutz, which she did in a not-so-attractive combination. Another girl in that group landed a few nice double lutzes in warm-up, though she missed it in the competition.

Tough call, what do you do? The first skater was a test stream pre-juvenile skater. She had a lutz, and that's the hardest jump required at that level. She might have even been skating up a level. Jump wise, the girl with the double lutz could pass her senior free. Yet her coach knew without a consistent double lutz she wouldn't be competive at regionals as a juvenile.

Emphasizing the artistic mark would not have helped, as the girl with the double lutz had far superior stroking, edges, footwork, and presentation to the girl with only the single. Not all that surprising.

I think pre-juvenile competitions and below (maybe even through juv or intermediate) should have two categories - a test category that allows maybe one or two more jumps than the actual test requires, and a second, open category, that follows standard USFSA rules (like no triples in juv, etc). Skaters could compete in either category, but not both at the same competition. Doesn't Canada do something similar?

Sand bagging goes on in Canada in the Adult levels, test levels and also in the competitive levels too. I think it is done all over the world. Everyone is out to win. I've been sandbagged twice in competition. At some competitions in Canada if there aren't enough compeititors competing in a catagory they will take the skaters of a higher level and let them compete against the lower level. I'd prefer if there weren't enough competitors in event that the judges and someway to mark against the book. That way, the skater has a chance at a medal still and if the skater isn't good enough for a medal, then that would be fair. I even think that senior competitive world and Olympic skaters should be marked this way in the techinical side. I also think that the presentation side should be marked by either show or tour people/managers or audience. How can just 7 judges really know what moves the audience, what takes the audience in? One can have excellent skating elements but lousy choreographyand/or presentation or the opposite. I think judges should only judge elelments against the book. The book should include elements up to a quint axel for jumps even though no one has done a quad axel yet because some day some skater will do it.

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I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

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Adult skaters that continuously sandbag are among the most PATHETIC creatures on earth. I once skated up (to gold) in a local competition. I came in 2nd to a woman 10 years younger than I (that part was not against the rules) that had passed her STANDARD SENIOR FREESTYLE TEST!!! Forgive my screaming but it still boils my blood! This is someone who has medaled several times at adult nationals.
The competition application stated that the USFSA rulebook rules for each event were to be followed but that skaters were permitted to "skate up".
I know what it is like to not have someone to skate against. However, there were plenty of Senior skaters at that competition. Believe me, she would have held her own against them,
A friend of mine said that this particular skater is WELL KNOWN for doing that. I guess beating out the likes of me (10 years older, several test levels lower) for a $1.49 medal in a local competition was really important for her. Sad.
Anyway, I have been around the sport for awhile and can handle a few lumps. My concern is for the children and the newer adult that may just be screwing up their courage to compete for the first time or two.

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Warm Regards,
Kathleen

"It is never too late to become what you might have been."
George Eliot

I don't get it. If she's passed the Sr. Freeskating test, she cannot skate Adult gold. She has to skate Masters. So why was she allowed to skate gold? That sounds shady. The competition chair shouldn't have let her skate that level.

I'm totally against true "sandbagging," but let me put my plug in for those wrongly accused. Many people are quick to label someone a sandbagger, especially if they have jumps deemed to be too high for a particular level. But I think you have to cut adults a *little* more slack. Who are we to know someone's true motivation? Sometimes the reason that woman is still hanging out at Bronze instead of testing up to Silver is because she:
(a) Can't pass the next test because of a particular skill holding her back, such as spinning.
(b) Due to work or home responsibilities, can't get enough ice time to make much real progress.
(c) Sucks at testing and fails because of nerves.
(d) ...
There are a few people who very obviously can pass that next test AND be competitive (however you define it; that's very personal too) at that level, but I honestly don't know many real sandbaggers. Most of the adult skaters I know do want to move up.

I'll hop off my soapbox now.

Skaternum - I totally agree with you! I myself have been accused of sandbagging! Behind my back of course! Someone replied to my friend "finally" when told that I was moving up to the next level. (Back then there were only 2 levels in the adult category: Junior and Senior). The ironic thing being that this person had been skating more than twice as long as I was at the time.
Also, nowadays, if you can't pass the test, you can't move up. (Ouch, don't I know it!)
I also agree that the vast majority of adult skaters value reaching a higher level over a medal. I would gladly trade every medal I've ever won, including a regional championship for passing my Adult Gold Free Test.
(Boy when I pass that, we are going to have a party!)
Also - Please stay on the soapbox! We need more people willing to speak out. UGHHH! Don't even get me STARTED about those ADULT MOVES!!!!!!!

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Warm Regards,
Kathleen

"It is never too late to become what you might have been."
George Eliot

I agree with KathySkates and skaternum. Just because someone you're competing against can perform some more difficult tricks than you and you think will finish above you in competition, it doesn't mean that you should automatically grumble behind her back that she's "sandbagging". There might be valid reasons why she's only test up to that particular level. Why not just focus on enjoying your performance instead of worrying where you'll placed.

In Canada this became a huge problem a few years ago..still is in a way. However, for the younger skaters, especially those in CanSKate, and pre-preliminary, prelim,etc (we have A, B, and C levels) there are restrictions on the jumps a skater can do. If the skater attempts a jump that isnt allowed, they get a heafty deduction. I've actually seen it happen. For example (someone can correct me if im wrong) prelim A can try up to a flip, B a lutz (or axel..can't remember) and C no resrictions.

I like the idea of having a level (such as prelim, jr bronze, or pre juv) and having a couple of streams..skaters who can do over X jump, skaters who can not.

The jump restrictions are a good idea in Canada, but there still is a huge problem once they're past Jr Bronze A because after that, anything goes and the competitive tests come into play. Skaters who have taken the pre-novice competitive test get an equivalency for the Jr.Silver test stream freeskate test. However, the level of jumps required for competitive is significantly higher than test , as a double axel is "strongly encouraged" for pre-novice. So, if they could somehow figure out what to do with skaters who drop out of the competitive stream and go into the test stream, some of the sandbagging might disappear.

My guess would be someone who fails tests b/c of nerves probably does not perform well in competitions either. This is probably not the skater who turns in a great performance and is accused of sandbagging. S/he might look great in practice, but would probably choke in the actual competition.

Though I have not competed, I did choke on a basic test (still passed but did not skate anywhere near what I do in practice). I can virtually guarantee if I choked on that test, I would not look very good during a performance.

Kay

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Last year several New England cubs introduced "restricted" events at their USFSA Opens. "Restricted Free skating" means that the skaters are limited to doing ONLY the elements specified for that particular test. Higher elements are not allowed. It's proving to be quite popular especially for skaters who haven't tested yet but want the chance to try out their test programs in front of judges. Check out competition applications to see if your local opens might be offering these events. If they don't, you could contact the chair and ask them to.

I've been burned by this and I have benefited from this.

At a USFSA comp, my bronze competition was merged with the silver comp, guaranteeing I would finish out of the medals. That pretty much cheesed me off.

But since ISI restricts skaters from competing beyond the test they have passed, I had an easy time winning in freestyle 1, even though I was working on elements in 2, 3, and 4. The issue? One element in 2, one element in 3 that I could not do. I've since passed 2, have half the elements in 4, but am held back by one stinkin' element in 3. I"m not sandbagging, I honestly can't pass the test.

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Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

The USFSA does have restrictions on jumps permitted in programs. For example No test does not allow axels, Pre-Pre does not allow doubles. There are deductions for performing higher elements (I think you should be disqualified though). The restrictions are high compared to the test levels it's true, but OTOH, top Senior ladies do all triples except axel and the test structure never even requires a double axel or triple - both of which are required in a Senior Ladies short program. USFSA competitions typically cater to competition skaters, not test skaters. They have a Basic Skills structure that takes you through the axel and is more restricted (similar to ISI). You can also ask your competition chair to hold restricted events where higher level elements are not completed.

As for the adult structure, I have seen Masters adults competing Gold...often competitions don't offer Masters events. I don't know the skater Kathy is talking about, but I can see why if you are an adult you'd prefer to enter adult events, even if you've passed your standard test. Those girls might have been a disaster, but most Senior Ladies can at least land through double lutz in combination pretty consistently. I haven't seen any real adult who can do that.

As for sandbagging...to me sandbagging is when you are getting straight ones easily and are able to perfom elements well above permitted at the level. I think you'll see a lot more people being accused of sandbagging at the adult levels now with the adult moves. I also think you see some of it because there is no intermediary double level. You can't do Gold (and doubles) unless you can land your axel...for many people, the double salchow is easier...plus at Gold, you can do any double. Compare to standard where you're restricted to 2 at Preliminary. Actually, I recently had someone ask me what I was planning to compete, now that I'm an adult and they said that I would be "sandbagging" since I said Silver. Well, maybe I land some cheated doubles, but I don't have an axel and I don't think the chances of my passing Gold moves are all that high.

Ok, I'm sold!
I'll change my vote to restricting elements to that particular level.

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MEL
Absolute Skating

It's even worse in dance, because there is no rule to say that you must test, so skaters can compete in the baby class even if they've been dancing for twenty years and skills to match. I watched a superb couple at a RIDL match this summer absolutely squashed by a terribly unlucky draw - their opponents would have looked good dancing the Silver tango, never mind the Canasta! Mind you, it was a superb Canasta, really showed you how it should be done, but those skaters should not have been skating it. But - I didn't know the man, but the woman is a superb free skater, and I don't think she's done any dance tests. For the World Challenge you could choose which dances you did, but you were warned that if you were obviously skating down you would be disqualified.

There's another woman here who will be competing against batikat and me on Sunday, in the same class for the free dance and if she doesn't win in the under-level-6 class she will make the podium. She certainly expects to win! Then she will compete in the "Any Standard" class and do quite well in it, too. I like her, enormously, but I do wish she'd test out of my orbit! Last year I was drawn second in the class, straight after her and just ahead of Tashakat's friend Will, which did me no favours at ALL. I'm told I'm drawn 4th this year, but have no idea between whom.

Main problem is that me and Robert are really only just off the bottom, and still very dependent on other people making mistakes, so this could be total jealousy on my part!

All the same.....

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Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I would also like to caution people about automatically dubbing someone a sandbagger.

I recently skated the Peach Classic in which I was entered in pre-bronze freestyle, bronze MIF, and prelim dance. I placed well in both of those events. I think someone could have seen my pre-bronze FS program and come to the conclusion that I was sandbagging. However, what they could not know from my program is that I can't do a backspin or a sitspin. The moves in my program were specifically those that I can do well!

I did sandbag in dance - however because my test center was canceled, my only choices were to skate prelim or not skate. Neither my coach nor I had ever seen an adult dance event and I didn't know what to expect.

Just a couple of thoughts,
Danielle

ps) I like the idea of a restricted set of elements that one can choose from - sort of like the ISI model except that you choose out of a bigger number.
pps) Hey skaternum, there is a skater, Morgan Matthews, who is skating at both of my rinks who puts my "passion" to shame!! ;-) You should see her expression when she skates! (Of course they are in the junior Grand Prix, so ... ;-)

I second Dani's feelings about using caution when calling someone a sandbagger. It can be a tough call, especially at the lower levels. I definitely support the idea of putting elements in a program that you can do well, but I sometimes feel uncomfortable about doing so since my skills are all over the place. For example, I have passed my pre-bronze test, and getting ever closer to the bronze test. If I were to compete with a program (not an interpretive program), I'd want to skate pre-bronze. However, my best moves are spins that you'd normally see on the silver level! I'd feel funny having a program with solid waltz, toe, and sal and then have camel and layback as my spins! I mean, I am closer to having a flying camel that I am a flip. Eek. I don't quite feel like a pre-bronze skater but I don't feel I'm ready for bronze either.

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All that glitters has a high refractive index.

MissIndigo, we should combine! ;-) I can land my jumps through the loop solidly and can land a so-so lutz! We'd be unstoppable! ;-)

Hugs!

ps) I agree about not quite feeling like a bronze skater but also not really feeling like a pre-bronze either.

The level categories are pretty bizzare at the adult levels, and I agree with Kar that with the adult moves, it's going to be more difficult. In the last several Adult Nationals in which I've competed, a former kid skater, who had not tested has won the silver division. When asked why they didn't skate gold, many of them said that this was their first year or so back, or their first adult competition, and they wanted to see how they did at silver before committing to gold. It's not surprising when you look at the kids competition levels compared to their test levels. These returning adults are old kids, and that's the environment they are use to. Most, if not all, after winning at Nationals do test up to the gold level, realizing that's where they belong. The silver level has become the testing ground for many returning skaters.
There's a lot to consider when you think about testing up. My priorities are interpretive and pairs. I can do a double sal, and if I could do a clean axel, I would probably test. However, being a gold skater would put me in master interpretive (a combination of adult gold and masters), which I don't want to do. I have no problems competing against adult gold skaters, but I am not interested in competing against returning kid skaters. Also if I pass gold fs or pairs, I would be in masters pairs, again competing against returning kids. I did compete in master's pairs at nationals, because of my then partner's level, and we did fine (2nd place), but if I were to be at that level it would exclude many potential partners at the silver level. With the new pairs test requirements and moves, male pair partners will become even more scarce than they already are! So there's no way that I'm going to add to that. So, there's quite a bit for adults to think about as far as test and competition levels. For some it may be wanting to win a medal, but for most of us, it's a great deal more.

Let's not forget that there ARE some real adult sandbaggers out there. Not many, I agree, but I know one in particular. She medaled at a recent AN (her first time there) and definitely could have tested and passed to the next level. However, she has NOT tested because in her own words "I wouldn't have a chance to medal at nationals, so what would be the point of competing?"

This whole discussion is so interesting!!!

Sometimes things depend on skater's motivation overall. I have a good friend who has been an adult skater for about a year now, currently in Beta ISI. We couldn't be more different. She is in it primarily to perform and compete--if that wasn't available, she wouldn't have started. We take a dance class together, and I know she'd LOVE to go to another teacher, because ours doesn't teach for a living--its a sideline, and she and our little troupe don't get a lot of opportunities to perform, and that bugs my friend who loves to perform and do solos. ( In fact, she was somewhat disappointed to realize she wasn't going to be given opportunities to skate solos at our ISI exhibitions until she is Freestyle 1 or higher -- if we did that we'd have every parent of every child in beginner's demanding a solo for their child!!!). She sometimes pushes me to change dance teachers, but I'm not interested and she doesn't want to make the change by herself. My husband finds my friend's skating puzzling, because she usually comes for her lessons and that's it, rarely practices---until she gets her competitive program, and then she will practice. Watching the skills I've had to learn at higher levels and their difficulty, (jumps and spins) she has expressed interest in branching out into dance instead. I don't think she realizes the repetition and practice involved there, not to mention the difficulty in finding partners--again, she's sees it as an opportunity to perform and go for medals and I don't think she realizes that the freestyle stuff comes later after you master patterns. I'm not saying there is any wrong with her motivations--they work for her, and that's fine. Its just different from most skaters I know (like all of you who are as addicted as I am!!!)

My main motivation is to learn and enjoy--I'm absolutely addicted. I've realized now that my new Klingbeil's are going to put off those pre-bronze tests for a while as I've had to completely adjust my skating technique, and while the adjustments are a little frustrating, that's just fine. I enjoy competing, but I could go without this year and I'd still love every moment on the ice. I enjoy getting advice from all of you when something frustrates me, because it frequently helps, and I love the exchanges we have. I never want to get to the point where a medal or a competition means more to me than the skating itself. As I've often said: "I do this for fun, if it stops being fun, I shall cease doing it."

Beth
(whose parents pressured her in competitive piano as a kid and teen, one of the reasons I rarely touch a keyboard not attached to a computer these days...)