I didn't want to hijack the practice thread so I started a new thread because I was thinking about this...honestly, when you learn this jump, don't you pretty much have to turn on the ice to figure out what the heck you are doing?

My first half flips and half lutzes were turning on the ice, because I really had no clue of the mechanics. And I was just plain scared to jump

I understand there are bad habits to avoid especially so you aren't doing toe axels later on and I guess that's the question, what is a bad habit and what is walking through the jump, and getting used to trying to get up in the air some time - even if it is after you've turned.

It's kind of the same thing with a salchow, when you learn it, you do a 3 turn and a waltz jump ...

j

Well I dunno. When I learned these jumps years ago, my coach insisted we do them correctly from the beginning. These days there does seem to be a school of thought that says it's okay to learn things cheated, then correct them as you get better at them.

Personally, I have spent so much time unlearning bad habits (not just in skating), that I think I would've progressed a lot faster if I'd learned right in the beginning.

Doubletoe gave a great explanation in a much earlier thread, of the feeling of floating around. And once you feel that, the jump makes a lot more sense. See if you can find it under one of her posts.

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Karen

I skate - therefore I am

No I didn't. When I was first doing a salchow I did a jump and a fall on my butt. Later I just magically started landing them, but there wasn't a 3-turn waltz inbetween that. Much rather I cheated the landing than the takeoff.

Speaking from experience, I can honestly say that learning the jumps properly is more important than getting through them with a cheat. It does establish bad habits, although the thrill of "doing one" is exciting.

I KNOW the right way to do the jumps, but I developed bad habits that overrode what I learned. Maybe because I was an adult with a lot of speed, I "got away with it" a lot. You really can't teach yourself because your eyes aren't removable. A video camera shows a 2-dim picture and can't zoom in to highlight the mistakes. Oddly enough, my students get annoyed that I don't let them "get away with" bad checks and poor technique.

I've been taking lessons and relearning all those jumps the *perfect* way. While it's much harder, the muscle memory you develop from doing it properly helps you with later jumps. In a way, taking a long break from skating was good - I'm relearning some of these jumps from scratch, such as the loop jump with the RFI3 entrance.

Proper technique and repetition builds a strong foundation.

That said, I sympathize with you, I really do. I can cheat "anyjumpanytimeanywayanyplace." HAHAHA!

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Ok, so I see where one can pre-rotate on the toeloop. After learning it right at first, at some point I just got this bad habit out of the nowhere somehow that doubletoe had good suggestions to undo. I see where you can cheat a salchow, cuz when I sprained my landing leg anckle I was doing sal's without ever taking off the ice. I can see how to cheat a loop, holding the outside edge practically till you fly off it by yourself. A cheated lutz is a flutz. I've seen axel cheats too.

But how on earth does one cheat a flip?

The same way you can cheat any jump: turn some of it on the ice, don't rotate completely and don't land on a clean edge with the free foot in front.

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Shrug. Both the coaches I've had and are known for excellent jump technique and people comment on my daughter's good jump technique. I just know that if you just made me jump without letting me walk through the technique I wouldn't even understand where to begin. Considering even getting up on my toe pick is a challenge for me. I'm not looking for any "thrills of jumping" I'm gonna trust my coach on this one.

j

Oh boy I know how that goes...I've been unlearning a lot of bad habits over the past year and am grateful to my coach for it.

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Free... foot.. in... front? Argh... so, now I'm doing a pseudo toe waltz with an icky landing

Okay, so my coach has me drilling: glide back, jam toepick into ice, hop UP into the air, land without killing myself, repeat-- just to get me more comfortable with using that toepick. Should I really keep workign that to get more height so that I'd actually be able to whip around? Or is there another drill that I can do so that I can get the full rotation without cheating?

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When asked what his "secret" to success was, Wayne Gretsky said: "Skate to where the puck is going and not to where it has been."
Is the figure skating version of this: Skate as if you're doing an axel and not just learning how to hop?

Y'know, I just read that and thought that it would be a fairly cool thing to tell the non-skaters around me when they ask what I'm doing....

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When asked what his "secret" to success was, Wayne Gretsky said: "Skate to where the puck is going and not to where it has been."
Is the figure skating version of this: Skate as if you're doing an axel and not just learning how to hop?

I dunno...sounds more like a syndrome than a jump. LOL

As for the rotation, you're just starting out. I teach all jumps as "pick, pull, pop (no rotation), and p After a few lessons, your coach will add the upper body/shoulder/arm checks that makes the jump rotation easier. Keep working the drills. Also work on holding that back edge/free foot reach - the stronger you get at that, the better control you'll have over the toe in.

BTW, don't bend your knee and "hammer" the toepick into the ice.
It's not pretty and can cause injuries.

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On the toeloop takeoff, keep your picking foot facing the direction you're coming from (think of keeping that left hip closed and knee facing where you came from) so you don't turn your foot forward before leaving the ice. The difference between just jumping straight up and jumping up and rotating is what you're doing with your right leg. As you leave the ice, cross your right thigh over your left leg so your right leg is aiming the jump 90 degrees to your left. So the left foot has not turned, but you have a little head start with the landing leg.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

You can use the "back pivot entry" method. Basically your take off position ends up looking like a back pivot that then leaves the ice. It keeps from having a cheated take off and when you drive your non-picking foot through, it creates a really nice jump. I looked at mine this morning on video in my lesson with my coach and with a little more free leg drive, was able to clean up my double toe from ~ 1/4 cheated. Yes, I was quite happy about that and proceeded to do it in the program!

I think that is what my coach is trying to get me to do because she told me to work on back pivots...that's what I was talking about pulling my non-picking leg back across my picking foot.

j

Hmm. . . Sounds like something I'll need to try! So you do a regular RBO pivot (left toe in ice) and then. . . at what point do you actually take off? I take it you don't do a full revolution on the pivot like you do when you pivot to a full stop?

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Ask techskater cuz I'm still cheating mine...but she's having me work on the back pivot just to get used to that position, i don't think you need to enter that way, that's just the position you end up in and did occur to me it's pretty much impossible to turn on the ice before you jump if you do it right, which I don't, of course..

You don't turn at all in the back pivot, the position for the pick looks like a back pivot which is why I put it in quotes. You do the three turn, pick in the position you would do a sweeping back pivot (so - far back instead of in the sand box) and press the weight up and over. My take off is never toe-axeled because I use this entry. It has a little check mark in the ice where it takes off.

I did this today and was able to get in the correct position and did jump without turning on the ice. But of course this does nothing to prevent you from cheating the landing.... I'm not sure I can even get my body around for a full rotation...

j

Yeh this is what my coach has me do. An alternate exercise (CCW jumper) is a LFO half swoop(R arm front), legs and arms together stand tall, RBO swoop (L arm front), L toe in and pull onto it like a brief back pivot and SIT on you L foot then you HAVE to use the draw of the free leg to get your momentum to get up for the toeloop. Gotta be strong for that exercise to work, aka more strength than skill.

AS for my troubles with Waltz toe vs solitary toe: Seems that the problem is the landing - Works much better if I land with free leg knee bent and up front and sweep it back instead of landing already open, dooooh!
Lyle

The back pivot-like entry will never prevent you from cheating the landing, that is made up from the rest of the technique and strength.

The other exercise that seems to help people is mazurkas (not side toe hops/toe taps, real live MAZURKAS). It teaches the draw.

Okay, I think I know what you mean. The idea is to get the right leg to start crossing over the left while keeping the hips facing the direction you came from, right? (but what do you mean by, "far back instead of in the sand box"?) BTW, I tried your mazurka exercise awhile ago and I think it did help with the timing.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Mazurkas are even more evil than Bunny hops!

Lyle

Oh, there's no comparison! I like bunny hops.....

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Mrs Redboots
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Mazurkas are just sideways bunny hops....and almost as evil !!!!!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Well this is my head, not technique - I'd rather jump sideways, backward, anything but forward so I pick a mazurka over a bunny hop anyday,

j