To add to Flippet - often "lace bite" (the ankle pain from the tongue/lace pressure) can be alleviated by skipping an eyelet on the boot when you are lacing them up. You will see many skaters who do not lace up the top eyelet, or who skip the one at the bend in the ankle (the lowest eyelet) because these are pressure points. Other skaters (like me) double up in these areas We are gluttons for pain.

There are other solutions, too, like blister pads, blister pads with cut outs, lamb's wool, etc. If you generally like the Klings, stick with them for a bit, play around with the lacing, see what the pro shop has for padding. Sometimes skaters even cut out some of the tongue padding...but dont do this until you are positive about wanting to.

To break in skates - well, when I was younger, it was advised to walk around your house with the guards on with very thin wet socks. These are leather and the leather will mold to your feet. It might help to stretch the toebox.

Skaters who are properly fitted often do not have their toes completely flat in a skate when they buy it. They let the heat and moisture of their feet expand the toebos to get a super tight, comfortable, proper fit. I DO NOT rec. this type of fit for you because it will hurt....a lot....and you dont need skates that are that cozy.

I'm going to go COMPLETELY against popular opinion here ... sort of!

I would agree that, in general, getting top end boots and blades isn't a good idea if you've only just started jumps etc BUT I really, really wish that I'd bought custom Harlicks MANY MANY years before I did! I had no end of problems with stock boots and would have saved a lot of money and pain by going for a softer custom Harlick. Since buying Harlicks I haven't had a single problem with painful feet, scars, weals, lumps and bumps. It also means that I spent more time on the ice rather than off the ice trying to get my boots comfortable.

Again with the blades I wouldn't generally recommend getting top end blades BUT I got a very cheap pair of Risport Super Diamant with Gold Star blades when I was just starting jumping and spinning and the difference was amazing for me. I HATED Coronation Ace blades and couldn't get on with them but the Gold Stars made me feel like I was 'home'. I should say that I didn't know what the heck Gold Stars were at that point so it wasn't psychological! I have since gone onto Harlick Customs and Gold Seals which I LOVE.

At the end of the day it's each to his or her own. I wouldn't tell someone with very little experience to go right out and get customs and high end blades BUT I wouldn't rule them out if other things just aren't working.

Oh, if you hadn't realised already I ADORE Harlicks

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The best whisper is a click

TashaKat, I agree with you that custom boots may be the best solution if you have "problem" feet. Like you said, you had a lot of problems with stock boots probably even after doing everything possible like stretching, insteps etc. Your weight and skating power (or how hard you are on your boots) can also be factors. But still, I think that when just starting out, custom boots are the "last resort." Customs can be a good investment if you'd otherwise be throwing money away on switching boots trying to find something comfortable.

As for blades, I still think Gold Stars are way too much at this level. Aces or Pros would be more approprite. Maybe Visions.

However, I think a good fitter should be able to really help with boot and blade choice. Mine always seems to know exactly what kind of boot would be best for me. Before getting my latest pair, many people recommended Silver and Gold stars. But when I went it, my skates pro took one look at the condition my old skates were in and said Bronze stars would be plenty stiff. I'm still learning the axel now, but my boots feel really good, good enough for doubles.

Hey cshobe,
You've skated in stock boots, moved up to (used) Klingbeils, weighed you "needs" against your "wants", consulted with a fitter (who tried to save you $) and ultimately decided on custom Grafs and expensive blades. Good for you! Don't listen to all these skaters (including me) who may tell you what you should have done! YOU KNOW YOURSELF BETTER THAN ANY OF US. Skate! Enjoy! Have Fun! Don't let "coulda", "shoulda", "woulda" bring you down. Good Luck.

Wow, lots of things to think about...

Yes, I certainly bought more than I need, without any doubt. However I wanted to have something that I wouldn't need to replace before they broke down, and wouldn't limit my abilities.

I would not blame the fitter at all, so let me clear that up. If anyone is to blame besides myself, it's my roomate who has been telling me I should buy the best possible boots for weeks on end. But it was really my own decision.

I found after getting the Klingbeils (which are very stiff) and trying my roomate's SP Teris that I really prefer a stiff boot, I feel like I have so much more control. In fact, I tried skating on my original skates after only two sessions on the Klingbeils, and found myself pretty much unable to do anything because of the lack of support. I went to the fitter asking specifically to get Super Teris. He recommended against them for several reasons, and I finally decided to go with his recommendation. I found the Graf boots to be extremely comfortable, and a good fit. I can wiggle _all_ of my toes a small bit in them (as opposed to the Klingbeils where all but my two innermost toes can't budge), but the fit is also quite tight when they are laced up. When unlaced, if I force my foot as far forward as I can, I can squeeze in a finger behind my heel, but the fitter said this is okay (he was concerned about them being too small).

I don't mind break-in time, or I wouldn't have been seeking a pair of SP Teris. The Klingbeils were especially hard on the sides of my ankles at first, and it took a couple weeks before I could keep them on more than an hour or so without a 5 minute break.

The Grafs though are padded very well, they use heat to form them, and they don't feel as stiff as Super Teris to boot. I really like the boots, and even after considering the opinions against them for my level, I intend to stick with them (I do appreciate all the advice though, whether for or against!).


The blades on the other hand I'm feeling a bit uncertain about, because of the (mostly) negative opinions on them here. It probably wouldn't be too much trouble to cancel the order and get some Coronation Aces in instead, however I want to think about that . I'm not worried about them wearing out by the time I get to the point of being able to do double jumps (if I ever even manage to, singles seem a distant goal for now )...because if this set lasts me a couple years before I have to replace it, I'll consider it a good deal - I'm not concerned about the expense, as much as whether they will be as usable by me.

I knew they were overkill, but the big question is - will they hinder my progress? I don't mind a steep learning curve, because if this is something I might eventually graduate to with years of practice, wouldn't it be better to learn on them now, instead of having to relearn later? Will I be able to skate as well on the gold stars, given time? I was under the impression that either could be gotten used to. Yes, as some have said, I am most certainly under the inaccurate "bigger is better" influence, but I figured it would be good to start with the best, and learn what I could live without, rather than not know what I was missing out on (this ideal mostly came from starting with really poor skates).

Somebody suggested using the blades from the Klingbeils - I don't think this is possible because the Klingbeil is a shorter boot - I will measure it when I get home to be sure, but the Grafs will need an 11 3/4" blade. The bigger problem with the blades on the Klingbeils is that the rocker is too large - the fitter estimated it at 8' or even 9'.

I'd kind of hate to cancel and change the blade order (hence my resistance in this post ), but I am pretty sure it wouldn't be too much of a problem to do if necessary. I wish I'd found this forum earlier! Ahh well... I guess if worst comes to worst and I end up getting yet really hate the blades, I can get a set of Aces or another blade to replace them, and put the gold stars in the closet for a couple years down the road.


Thanks a million for all the advice - I may well end up with a set of lesser blades yet.

Well, this is true. You do sound like a determined skater, so even if this equipment is difficult, you'll probably persevere.

What were you skating on before the Klingbeils?

When I started, I was using an old pair of recreational (but better than most) CCMs. I could skate forward pretty decently, with a crossover or two, and move backward, but that was about it. I very shortly moved into Riedell 220s (and probably should have had the 320s), which lasted about 6 months, though I had them for a year. I then bought Riedell Silver Stars (this was 5 years ago, so before the redesign), and again, those lasted about a year before the ankle support was shot, and I'd compressed the heel padding enough that I was slopping around in them. I had MK Professional blades on those, and the Pros are a good, quality mid-level blade. When I went up to my SPTeri Super Teris (again, an older model...they'd been on the shelf for a long time--I got a good deal), I switched to Vision blades, because I wanted a smaller radius for better spinning. I did have to get used to the new, larger king pick, though! But I adore my Visions. I was in FS3 by that time, however. And I am pretty rough on boots...I can't imagine remaining in a Bronze Star for years...I'd trash those within 6 months doing no more than toe loops! People can be very different to their boots!

I'm also not sure exactly how much experience you really have....you sound quite knowledgable, but we're not used to seeing large amounts of knowledge here from folks who are a) teaching themselves and b) don't yet have a waltz jump. So we may be underestimating you somewhat.

Getting equipment that is perfect for you takes some trial and error...for pretty much everybody. We just hate to see your 'trial and error' occur on the high end of the scale, before you have a good idea of what kind of skating you'll do, and how hard you might be on your skates. But it's possible that you actually do understand this, and we just aren't getting clear on that at the moment.

Oh, and I think the Grafs may be ok...if you know you do well with a stiff boot. I've never skated in them, but some friends have them. (One hated hers, but she's got 'problem' feet and dislikes a number of brands. The other seems to like hers just fine.) Just be sure to follow good advice for breaking them in, and especially good advice for what to wear on your feet, and how to lace them up for the break-in period.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

you're asking if you'll ever be able to do moves and spins and jumps properly in the blades. Well, the problem is, you may never learn them in such advanced blades. When you start with lower ones, you can learn the moves, learn the feel of them, learn approximately how much force you need to put in, etc. so when you progress to more advanced blades, you already know how the move is to be accomplished, and what hte end result is supposed to be. Yes, there will be a bit of adjustment before you can do them perfectly again, but it's not a long time. When I skated as a kid, before i went back and now have to relearn everything, i don't think it took me more than a day or two after breaking in the skates before i was able to pick up where i left off.

will you be able to learn the moves on the gold stars? maybe. or you could get discouraged and give up before anything comes out of it. You may say now that you won't quit, but it happens a lot when people can't do something. I'll be the first to admit that i didn't like having to start from square one to learn all the jumps and spins again. But if I had bought a pair of skates and blades equivalent to what i was on when i stopped (i was working on doubles at the time) i would have been so discouraged because even something like a 3 turn i wouldn't have been able to do. So i downgraded, so to speak, and am i glad i did? hell yea, because I'm enjoying skating, not feeling like i'm fighting with the boot or blade.

i think the main part of this post is that skating is supposed to be fun. very few people have fun when they're attempting something and keep falling on it. It's a lot more fun to see the progress. And learning everything on gold stars, well, you're not going to see much progress on those anytime soon.

btw, how would you bend the blade? the only feasible way i could see to bend them is if you take a hammer and bend it out of shape. i've fallen so many times, and my blades are still straight.

My brother bent many blades. His favorite ones to bend were pattern 99's. When the blades were taken off the boot you could the the plate bent as well as the blade. It was only when he got ultimas that he stopped bending them.

BTW he was doing triples and working on quads

well then he's a very powerful skater. but i can't imagine bending blades when you're working on a waltz jump. maybe if they were the walmart specials, but a decent pair from a reputable seller, i don't htink they'd bend so easily from a waltz.

Uhhhhh no, that is definitely NOT okay. Too big. And it's not abnormal not to be able to wiggle the little toe in your boot, as long as it isn't being crushed. My feeling is your boot is too big.

YES, no question about it. It's hard to explain but....here it is: each blade has a certain window of usage guideline in mind. You bought blades for people who have been jumping, spinning, and skating for a very long time- an experienced blade, top end actually. Now, advanced skaters could CONTROL those blades perfectly fine, however, you could not. Think of launching into a 3-turn. Coronation aces are controllable blades for your level. Gold Stars will send you to China before you have the strength to check the turn it will send you into, because they are much more powerful. They are also faster blades. The problem with this is...you'll never work to learn to push and really work your edges and build up your muscles as much as you would in a less advanced blade. The blade will be doing too much of the work FOR you, if you will. When you're a Senior level skater, that's not a problem because you're doing triple jumps and the little help those blades give don't take away from your workout, but at the start up level, it makes a difference. And spins, oh Lord, spins. You want to take it slow. You want to have CONTROL. You will not be able to center and control these spins half as easily on the Gold Stars as you would on lower end blades. Same with jumps! All jumps involve toe-pick action or three turns and the like, to learn to control the Gold Star's edge turns and toe pick, you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

I get your point about "well if I'm going to graduate to them later...." First, cold hard truth: unless you think you're going to be doing triple jumps, you will NEVER need these blades, ever ever ever. You can go up to a Phantom (which I hate) or a Pattern 99 (which aren't blades that get bent if you're a girl, it's guys that break them, they can handle a girl's weight just fine- I should know since I've worn them for a long time). Anyhow, you may never need these blades. It's more likely that someday your coach will make you switch to a blade more appropriate to your level (away from the Gold Stars) and then you'll really be lost. Point is...can you learn your basics on Gold Stars? Perhaps, if you want a simple three turn to take you three years to learn how to check. But why would you pay 200 extra dollars to make life HARDER for yourself? These blades have absolutely ZERO to offer you, they will only hurt you. I guarantee it. Quote me for all I care, and go ask your fitter. If he's the least bit honest (and knowledgeable) he'll agree with me.

I don't know the brand - the skates had never been used, but were some 20 years old. This was my first plunge into skating, and I didn't know anything about what I was doing - I bought them before I knew the value of stiff boots - the ankle support was nearly nonexistant, and my roomate told me the blade was a joke.

I didn't really understand the extent of his words until I got the pair of used Klingbeils and felt the difference.

Sounds about the same as me. I got pretty good at crossovers on them, and could do a sloppy 3 turn, but not well, and balancing on one foot was difficult and I could not manage it for long. A much better skater noticed me one day and told me that I needed better skates if I wanted to progress much further. This being the second opinion convinced me to finally got the Klingbeils. I got them pretty cheap, which was a curse - because they're really worn in, and the blade isn't so great; but also a blessing - because they are much better than the last pair I owned, and have allowed me to progress further without spending too much money on a used pair.

Well, thanks for the compliment, but I'm not very experienced yet! I have just been really obsessive about skating as it's the best thing I've done in years.

To give you an idea, I can do forward crossovers very well, forward 3-turns pretty good (best is right then left insides, outsides are still rough), cross rolls, a 360 degree or more turn on any edge (both CCW edges are cleaner than CW). Probably the most impressive thing I can do now is gain a lot of speed with crossovers on one end of the rink, round the other half on an outside edge while holding the free foot up with either hand (I do this more to learn balance better than anything), and end it with a series of 3-turns turned into full rotations. I can only barely waltz jump (currently giving it a rest because I strained my foot the last time), and can't really spin at all (but a lot of that may be because of the large rocker). Just a beginner yet, don't let me give you false impression.

I wore out the first pair (albeit poor quality) quickly. They were pretty much shot in a little more than a month (around 60 hours skating). I know I'm not using them terribly hard now, but I skate harder as time goes on, and intend to learn more jumps with time.

I'm pretty darn persistant about skating...when I first started and 3 hours out would leave me laying in bed sore and exhausted I'd just get up and go again the next day. My first boots caused a lot of blistering on the top of my foot where the tongue bit in without having enough padding...the Klingbeils were extraordinarily painful at first. I've had some unfortunate falls on my wrists which hurt for days and one on my elbow which is still sore nearly 2 weeks later. But I won't be discouraged!! The fun and excitement alone is worth it, and making progress is great too.

I am always wanting to learn more though, and even my short time here has been very informative!

The only skaters ive ever heard of bending blades are the big boys....arutr, lloyd, and even todd (doing a triple). Otherwise, it takes something like Harding's steel rod to bend a blade.

I'm not worried about bending blades in a waltz, I'm worried about bending them months down the road, maybe a normal single jump wouldn't hurt them, but what of a few bad landings and stumbles in a row when learning them?

Really though, the fact that the blades are stronger was just a nice point to them...mostly I just assumed that higher end blades would be better all around, which it isn't sounding like...

Well, the last thing I will say is this: the more often you skate, the more the blades will need to be sharpened. A pair of blades can wear out their sharpening potential within a year...so buying now to grow into something in years from now is not really the smartest approach. The more you skate, the more you sharpen, the more you sharpen, the more you lose your blade...

Good Luck in whatever you decide!

My roomate tells me that he has broken several in the past. He focused more on spins than jumps, so these would have probably been singles or doubles that did it (will have to ask him).

No way! Blades don't bend. You have to be doing some SERIOUS jumping (quads...) to maybe bend them. Singles are nothing! You shouldn't even be worrying about this.

Also, I understand you're trying to look ahead to when you'll be needing this kind of equipment, but really, getting to the point of learning doubles takes several years of serious skating.

Right, the best blades are the ones that are appropriate for your level. There's a reason Aces and Pros are different from Gold Seals and Gold Stars. They combine everything that will help you learn the skills at that level without the unnecessary massive toe picks etc. But don't worry about quality, MK and Wilson blades are all high quality. And no, they're not gonna bend

Hmm, well that is concerning and I wondered the same myself. But I asked the fitter and he said it was okay, as I could not move my heal when the boots were laced. He wears Grafs himself, and has quite a lot of experience, so I would be surprised if he misrecommended them.

*nods* That's kind of what I picked up and wondered about from the other comments, and for something hard to put, I think you put it quite well.

Well, I'm a guy, unfortunately. Probably wouldn't break them nonetheless.

I plan to call him in the morning (I didn't want to call him earlier today as I wanted to wait and take all possible commentary from this thread into account - I rushed too much the first time), and discuss the blades with him and try to figure out what's best. Your insight has been most valuable (and others' too). I'll ask again about the boot size too - it might be best to step down to a size 10 (of course that means I'll have to wait a few weeks for it to be ordered in, but such is life).

I don't know which way I'll go for sure yet - it sure is tough to decide! But I'll raise the issues mentioned here and ask him for insight.

Maybe it would be good to learn moves on the klingbeil blades first, and then refine them on the gold stars? Ahh, a lot to weigh...

7 inch, and under $800, all in all. Still, as others have pointed out, over $200 less for blades that are quite likely better for me.

just a thought, it is usually good to try on different sizes. My skates, i originally tried on a 7.5, and i thought those were fine, but then i tried on the 7, and those felt snugger, and more secure. but a better fit would be worth the wait. Also, i don't know if you do this or not, but to help with fit, wear a thin sock. I don't know what guys wear, but i usually wear nylon socks, similar to the mondor tights. and make sure you wear them when you tried on the skates as well. it'll keep your foot from flopping around.

....He's broken SEVERAL? While focusing on spins?? No offense, I don't know your roomate, but between the crappy (and uneducated as far as skating goes) advice and these presumably false (and pretty ludicrous) claims about bending/breaking blades, it sounds to me like your roomate is one of those skaters that never accomplished much but likes to talk like they did. I highly doubt your roomate is telling you the truth about blade bending, unless he weighed over 300 pounds when he was jumping his doubles. It's VERY VERY rare for a blade to break. Kurt Browning landed the first quad jump in a Pattern 99 blade- he didn't break it. If I were you, I would get a coach and stay as far away from your roomate's advice as possible regarding skating, because he's done nothing but impressionate you and steer you the wrong way.

As far as you saying "I'm not concerned about bending them now, doing single jumps...but a few months down the road..." I don't know what you have in mind, but unless you're a very special case, you can expect it to take you between one to two years of skating a couple of hours a day, 5 days a week, with 4+ lessons a week to manage learning your doubles. If you skate less, take less lessons, take vacations, etc...this time will increase. If you skate three times a week and have two lessons a week, I'd say more like three to four years before you get your doubles. An axel, on average, takes about a year to learn all on its own. And before you learn it, you need to have ALL your singles solid- and all your singles with loops tacked at the end. That in itself will be at LEAST a year, probably more. Then a year or more for the axel, which isn't even a double jump per se, and THEN doubles. You're in it for the very long haul, you WILL have changed blades before you have to worry about your double jumps, trust me. It doesn't sound like you have a coach as of now- your only real money investement worth your while right now is to give back to blades (and possibly the boots since they are not only too high for your level, but seem ill-fitted) and spend some of that cash on a coach instead, trust me that would do you way more good.

Sorry to type so much but situations like these make me cringe, and I really want you to do this right, or you're going to walk away with bad memories from this sport not too far down the line.

I can't stand it any longer! The radius of a blade is measured in feet, not inches. A blade with a 7 foot radius has the curvature of the circumference of a circle with a 7 foot radius. It's easy to get confused because the size of the hollow is also designated by the term radius, but that is measured in inches.

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No offense taken - I've wondered about the same myself. I've been very foolhardy in not asking around earlier, and especially gullible and seeking huge improvement after using known-poor/mediocre skates.

Of course, there's no perfect answer for anything, but a range of opinions certainly helps!

Good catch. If you scroll up to my first mention of it, you'll see I at least wrote it correctly the first time around. It is easy to confuse!

You're right! A 7 inch circle would be way too small.

And I must have been thinking of Gold Seals, they're the ones with the 8' radius rocker.

Oops cshobe, if you're a guy then that does change my opinion about boots a little. You may need a stiffer boot since you'll probably be heavier on your skates.

I agree with most of what has been said here, especially about the blade issues. I have seen TONS of adult-beginner-type skaters with blades that I wouldn't be caught dead wearing (Phantoms, Gold Seals, Gold Stars, etc.) because I know that they are way too much blade for me, and I've been skating since I was a little kid and now into adulthood!

I keep wondering about some of the problems that I see with these skaters and have often thought that the blades they were on (mostly high-level freestyle blades with gigantic picks!) were too much for them. I have tried to talk them into getting coronation Ace or MK Pro, and they act like they are not good enough for them.

Why not? what is so great about their skating that they need the top-level blade? Is it about being able to spend the money, or is it about just thinking gradiose thoughts?

Now I wear a pretty top-line dance blade that frankly I don't like that much because on some level it is too much blade for me. Sure, the edges feel clean and nice and they FEEL expensive (good flow, all of that) -- but still, it's too much and I'm thinking of downgrading to a more "common" dance blade...

I once saw a little girl testing her pre-pre Moves -- she was about 6 and she was wearing gold-plated blades with huge picks -- I think they were Gold Seals -- she could hardly skate and she didn't pass this test. I was positive it was because of the blade. What were her parents thinking? (They want the "best" for their little darling, but don't realize that what's best for Todd Eldrige isn't necessarilly the best for the beginner skater!)

Okay, end of rant.

Good luck with your boots and I hope the blade thing works out. In any case, welcome to the wacky, wonderful world of skating!!

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