Well, I guess there are several things we need to be aware of:

As adults we need to take responsibility for our own skating.

As better skaters, we need to take responsibility for our own skating AS WELL AS inform others of the rules, and set a good example by following the rules and have a good attitude.

If we see something wrong, we need to speak up about it (especially if it's a safety issue).

If we can, maybe we can pressure our home rink management to incorporate bridge sessions, or lower freestyle if there are enough participants. This may not be possible at every rink (especially where hockey is king).

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I'm in the camp of those who think LTS kids do not belong on figure skating sessions. LTS kids, in my experience, do not possess the physical and mental awareness to deal with the fast and furious skating that FS sessions are all about. If they require a grownup to keep an eye on them, they do not belong on a FS session. It's unfair to expect figure skaters to spend some of their time and mental energy on taking care of a little kid on the ice. So unless a coach is devoted to keeping them safe the entire session, no way.

And I extend this to beginning adult skaters. It's not about age for me -- it's about awareness. The beginning adult may possess the mental awareness that the kids lack, but they don't have the physical awareness. LTSers of any age generally cannot control themselves well enough to be participants in the Safety Dance of getting out of the way. I just don't think LTSers belong on figure skating sessions. They may be serious. They may work hard. But they're not figure skaters in my book.

I agree with skaternum; it's not about age but level.

We also have coaches here who could care less about FS session rules. One even brought a 6-year old on a FS session ... for a hockey lesson! (Then there was the little star skater who skated right into my coach and me while I was in the harness getting a 2sal lesson, but that's a different story.)

There was a time when all the beginner skaters would just skate the weekend afternoon public sessions, but they've migrated onto the morning freestyle sessions. My latest theory is that since this trend started in May, the coaches are making the kids skate these early session so as to enjoy some time in the sun/at the beach!

There are even coaches who allow LTS kids on an adult freestyle session (yes, a rink here has adult freestyle sessions M,/W/F, 6-7:20PM): "Oh, well they are getting a lesson--they're an exception." <sigh>

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My rink has limited sessions. There are LTS lessons with the 30 minutes of practice time. Then there are the hockey times.

For practice skating, you have a choice of Sat/Sun public sessions, as well as the daytime sessions, late Friday night session (teen fest ), club ice on Sat/Sun/Wed, and one open freestyle session (usually Tues).

Sometimes, it's just a zoo! The daytime sessions are nice and not typically crowded unless there are home-schooled groups. The weekends are too crowded and poorly monitored by the rink guards.

Most evening ice is eaten up by hockey....

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I would encourage all; parents of toddlers, adult beginners and established skaters, to sell the idea of toddlers and adult beginners sessions, we have both at my rink and both the rink and the coaches do very nicely from them, perhaps coaches are the first line of call especially the ones with their own kids and once they are convinced maybe they can put some pressure on management also.

I attend both from time to time, they are a wonderful social event where you dont have to keep watching your back and many long term friendships have been established through them.

Its a win win situation for everyone but I agree the main priority in most rinks is hockey, thats where the big money is made and most are privately owned businesses not council run so they have to make money to stay running unfortunately.

Good Luck

Sorry im not sure how to quote on this site. {Just click "QUOTE" in the bottom right of the post you want.}

I honestly didnt realise that seasoned skaters had such a massive problem with adult beginners. If this is the case, ill give up. If Im not a figure skater becuase I havent passed certain tests then obviously I am not fit to be on the ice. With these sort of attitudes amongst higher level skaters I doubt I ever will be and I seriously feel sorry for all those adult beginners/skaters who aspire to be more than a leisure skater, skating in circles, one way around an ice rink.
I honestly now see that there is a massive amount of snobbery within this sport. Its funny how we look at things with rose tinted glasses when we love something so much. I think as with everything else Ive ever tried to do lately, ice skating will now have to be looked at as another 'play time hobby' that has gone sour. Im prepared to give up if this is what people think. I will NOT skate on a busy packed to capacity public session becuase its virtually impossible and im my opinion far far more dangerous than skating on patch. It seems that with reference to the above opinion its better if I dont skate on patch either becuase were just not wanted there either? It seems we dont have the awareness or physical ability to get out of the way? LOL Thats the funniest thing Ive heard in my life. I dont know how it works anywhere else but at my rink you simply dont go on patch unless your coach has deemed you worthy. Beginner or not I know how to keep out of the way but it seems my presence there is infact in the way wether im up by the barrier or not.

I know what Ill do, Ill press the council to build a seperate rink for adult beginners, so that we can call ourselves 'wannabe figure skaters' and not get in anyones way.

Yep call me what you want for this post, ive taken offence and Im sure many other adult beginners probably would too. oh and with the nature of forums these days, I had better cover my back and say that Im not having a personal dig here at anyone in particular, Im not out for an argument, Im not out for a row. Im just heartilly disappointed that there is NO SUPPORT amongst our skating peers. Jeesh anyone would think that adults are some serious threat?

Right off to sell my skates on ebay

Andrea xx

In theory this is very good, but with the distinct lack of ice skating arenas in the UK its not always easy to attend an adult or toddler session. My rink does an adult beginner session 1/2 hour per week very early on a saturday morning. Seeing as many adults have kids and many of these adults including myself have over an hours drive to the arena its simply not practical to be there on time, or pay the full whack price for 1/2 hrs skate.

I would have also thought that the adults that use patch like myself are invited to use the patch sessions. Im sure were not mad enough to just presume we can go on patch for the sake of it.

Andrea xx

I can see it from both points.

Firstly (and I am probably going to get lynched for this), I agree to a certain extent with what Mercedeslove says.

Okay, it is not 'fair' to say that LTS kids shouldn't be on patches. Well, perhaps it's not 'fair' that learner drivers can't drive on a motorway...but would you let a learner driver with little coordination, little awareness of other road users, lacking in skills and experience on a motorway....?

I guess it depends on the rink, but while I was learning to skate I had to make do with just public sessions, and I managed okay - though admittedly I am lucky enough to skate at a rink where not all public sessions are jam-packed and dangerous.

On the other hand, it's going a bit far to 'pigeonhole' everyone the LTS programme - okay some (especially little kids) have little coordination or awareness of other skaters, but as others have pointed out, there are some that are doing toe-loops. At our rink I see a number of adult learner skaters who may not be very advanced, but do have the skills - and sense - to get out of the way of others if necessary.

So IMHO, the way forward would be a compromise...eg having to be a certain level to skate on a patch, and also a minimum age (5?) Or do what Andrea's rink does - you have to be 'recommended' by a coach to skate on a patch.


S xxx

I think if a coach reccommends you skate on patch then there isnt a problem what so ever, regardless of the age. I have been skating 8 weeks, I am progressing very fast. I can get out of the way, I am old enough and do have enough sense, mental ability and skill now to keep out the way of those who are skating more agressively or working on a program. I think a lot of it is common sense.
If I hadnt been asked to skate on patch then there is no way that I would presume that im good enough. My coach seems that Im of the ability now to cope with patch sessions and keep myself pretty safe. There is another girl at our rink, beginner (2 weeks) decided that she will skate on patch also. This girl cannot even stop herself with either a snow plow, T stop etc so I would question her ability to using patch. Thankfully her coach refused to give her lessons on the patch session as she is deemed not ready.

This is how it works where I skate. If your coach thinks your ready and good enough for patch then its reccommended. If not, you will simply skate on a public session until you reach a standard where your considered safe.

I havent seen any children on our patch sessions, this is probably becuase the kids use the weekend patch becuase they are in school the rest of the week. The more advanced skaters dont tend to use these weekend sessions.

In an ideal world each arena would have two pads, one for the public and another for lessons/patch and deal out those patch sessions according to ability but we dont live in an ideal world. It seems arenas are only concerned with takings where as perhaps a little more emphasis on safety would be more apropriate. Where I skate the arena itself doenst seem to care too much about serious skaters as long as theyre takin a couple thousand pounds durin the day.

Andrea xx

When your rink only provides one teaching session for all levels, then you just have to learn to cope. The Husband has a scrape on his arm this morning from a collision with a child - he did try to avoid her, but didn't quite make it. I think she was okay, though.

We skate with other skaters at all ages and levels, from one of the leading dance teams in the country and a couple of people hoping to qualify for the British Juniors this year in free skating, right down to people just setting out. From adults in their 60s to children of 5 and 6. The rule is that you must have your own skates, and you need to be having lessons from one of the coaches (not necessarily that day, but to be a recognised pupil).

We manage. It's not ideal, you do have to keep your eyes open all the time, but then, you do that anyway! And yes, sometimes you have to adjust your pattern slightly, or steepen your edge to go round a skater, but we still seem to manage. The only time we have even come close to having a really nasty accident was on club ice, not on teaching ice!

I take the line that if two or three of the leading ice-dance teams in the country can cope with these conditions - as they both can and do - anybody can. At the end of the day, we're all skaters, and we all need to be careful about looking out for one another.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Our rink has a special freestyle session on Saturday mornings called "Junior Development" and I tell you, this one session solves a lot of these problems. You're not supposed to be on it if you are above ISI FS4 and it's for LTS kids and adults. I've been on it when just learning FS4 elements but wouldn't go on it now that I've passed because it's really not for me.

I think part of the problem with freestyles is there's an entirely different set of rules and that is the ONLY session in which an advanced skater can practice; they don't have the option of going to a public and practicing. I started going to freestyles as a mid level skater (I guess I'm mid level, now I can do a loop and flip) and I was completely freaked out about possibly getting in people's way and figuring out when and where I should skate, etc., and my coach was there. I still don't do my program on them without my coach there but I think I'm being ridiculous.

So AndreaUK don't be offended, the freestyles are designed for certain levels because there's a lot of speed involved, a lot of changes and turns, and beginning skaters can't anticipate it as well when you've got a bunch of high level skaters on the ice at once.

I'm 38 and felt for a long time like I shouldn't be on a freestyle...meanwhile we had a seven year old working on doubles and she was right at home and belongs there much more than I did...

Totally agree with you Skaternum.

Nova,

You hit the nail on the head with the thing about the "beach." For both coaches and Toddler parents: Convenience trumps Safety.

Okay, here's what I am going to do: I'm taking a pledge that whenever I see a LTS Toddler on a high level freestyle session (and, especially, sessions where it indecates a skating level,) with or without a coach, I am going directly to management to speak to them about it. Done.

I already had a little success with "hockey boy." Remember the little hockey boy staking out the end pattern at my rink on a Pairs/Dance/MIF session and his coach being the skating director. Well, I complained to management, they said something to her, and all though she still brings hockey boy on, she now moves the kid around and defers to me when I'm practicing moves. I can live with that for now.

I guess each rink has its own problems. Unfortunately the rink that I skate at, if i want to learn and progress I have no option other than use the patch session. I cannot practice spirals, 3 turns, lunges, waltz jumps etc on a public session that is full to capacity of stupid teenagers. My lessons with a coach are always on patch now which is a coaches reccomendation not mine. If there is likely to be a quiet period at the rink with no groups booked in, I do try to use the public ice but the majority of the time, particularly in the summer public sessions are filled to capacity so therefore there is very little other choice.

Andrea xx

Hear, hear. You have every right to use the patch session, you are obviously a competent skater aware of others around you, your coach wants to teach you on the patch session so clearly has no concerns about you not being 'good' enough.

There's a million miles between adult learners who may not yet be very advanced to little kid 'skaters' who are a danger to others and themselves. (Sorry to repeat myself again!)

I have to say although I meet the criteria for our patch sessions - having lessions with one of the rink's coaches - I would describe myself as a 'high-level beginner' and admit to sometimes feeling unworthy and almost a little intimidated when there're senior level ice dancers and people practising doubles there.

S xxx

Calm down, AUK. The histrionics don't solve anything. This isn't about snobbery. I was an adult beginner at one time too. Started LTS right before I turned 31. Been there, done that. And I still believe what I believe. It's about safety, not snobbery. I'm one of the biggest proponents of getting adults into skating, so playing the snobbery card rings hollow with me.

It does NOT work that way at every rink. Have you not seen all the posts from people saying that, out of sheer greed or self-interest, coaches and rink management will allow almost anyone on the FS ice?

Given the greed and self-interest of many of the pros, I do not believe self-policing works. Everyone thinks himself or his paying students capable of getting out of the way and being cognizant on the ice. But as a generalization, beginning skaters are less able to do so. So, then, one solution is to ban the whole class of skaters. It's not about YOU. It's about a general class of skaters. I've been involved with this sport for 11 years, and I've seen more scary stuff on the ice than you'd believe. I genuinely think everyone would be safer if LTSers were on public or appropriate level session rather than FS sessions. I hardly think that makes me a snob.

Allow me to turn the tables a little. Make the following substitutions and re-read:

spirals, 3 turns, lunges, waltz jumps = my program, moves in the field, double flips

public = FS

stupid teenagers = LTSers

Your needs would be greater than theirs because ??? Any parallels here?

Our rink has very limited open public skating sessions in summer so there is just no time for my 9 year old LTS daughter to have her lesson. Our rink will allow her to have a private lesson with her coach during freestyle if she is above a Basic 3 or 4 I believe. It costs more so I am not thrilled about it, but its the only way she can fit in a lesson this summer. Her coach stays VERY close to her all the time so I am sureshe will not interfere with others.

I'm am learning to skate, only just over a week learning! , and well I go whenever I can, mostly in the mornings because it is quiet, and I like that freedom of being able to go every day, not just on designated days just because I am a novice...

And well, my rink isn't exactly bursting with skaters, only on the weekends it is, and even then, I have not seen any accidents or stuff like that, though I did on one day see a few splatters of blood on the rink!

SO yeh, my rink doesn't have any of this freestyle sessions or anything, its all free for all, apart from the pirvate sessions for hockey etc

And even then, I think most advanced skaters belong to a skate club that has its own private sessions.

Most people are only casual skaters in my rink, thats about 95%. Rinks have to be realistic and make money.

I think this thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent.

Lovepairs' argument in the first place was not whether competent adult skaters should have the use of the rink on patch sessions - or in fact whether competent LTSers should.

He/She (? -sorry, LP!) was talking specificially about very little children who's parents like to think their little darlings can skate, but the reality is somewhat different.

Harsh as it may sound and (I am probably going to get lynched here), I wholeheartedly agree that little kids like this are a complete pain in the a**, allowing such little kids being on patch sessions is a recipe for disaster - possibly even more so for the poor adult that will inevitably trip over the little 'angel'....

S xx

i understand that, but some of the posts in the thread slowly moved to just LTS', and that includes me, so I was trying to defend myself

Can't say I blame you. Boy, when Lovepairs started this I guess he/she had no idea the thread would become this long lol....

S xxx

Great, positive suggestion; keep 'em coming.

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Personally, I never skate on the freestyle sessions unless it's really uncrowded, just because I have limited peripheral vision, so I'm not as likely to see someone coming at me from the side. It's not a problem in day to day life, and I manage driving and doing everything just fine, but the close proximety of some freestyle sessions make me nervous. I have been lucky enough to find some empty public sessions where it's usually only a couple people, especially during the school year, but I can see where the problem of having LTS kids without the proper awareness and control can be an issue. Especially when there are high freestyle skaters. You get one junior or senior skater on the ice, and it seems like the take up the entire ice on their own.

Whew...I was just referencing Skate-ism in fun on another thread.

Skaternum...we could turn the tables further....

Since there are more regular skaters than "elite" ones....would the elite skaters have rinks to skate if beginners were not participating? Would hockey then not be the only thing a rink would offer? Would another solution not be to forbid the minority of senior skaters off of most freestyle time slots so the majority with lower skills could have prime spots? Majority rules? giggle. Can you imagine the suggestion of one solution being the "ban of one group of skaters" when tables are turned in your direction? Could the high freestyler with such elite skills not have the responsibility to "get out of the way" of the "little people" all in the name of safety?

I am not really suggesting these things. However, I am tickled on how far apart the "sides" are. Truthfully, I do not know the solution but would bet that the compromise has not been posted here yet.

I am off to the rink before I break out in song "Give Peace A Chance"...I feel it coming on...eeeek!

I do think it varies from rink to rink. And from coach to coach - some will put skaters on the teaching ice when they aren't quite ready, and the net result is that the skater is terrified and makes no progress. A more sensible coach doesn't do that, but keeps the skater on the public ice, or on a different session.

At one rink not far from here, though, there is nowhere for learn-to-skate adults to practice - they are not allowed on the teaching ice, but the public ice isn't really suitable..... rather a catch 22! I suppose there are dedicated sessions for those taking classes, but at least one skater of my acquaintance, who takes dance at this rink and free skating elsewhere, is confined to learning dance on the public ice, which is very far from ideal!

So you can't win.....

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!