CORE STRENGTH!!!!

I notice also when I see younger skaters who are wibbly wobbly wet noodley all over, they just haven't learned yet how to use all their muscle groups together. I think with adults, especially those who have done other sports and physical activities, we know how to do that, it's just that focusing on one thing tends to make us forget about others. Or you may feel like you're doing what your coach is telling you to do (whether it's bending a knee, twisting at the waist, any other little thing we are constantly reminded of), and you genuinely may be trying to do it as much as you can and feel like you are, but you're still not doing it enough--video can REALLY help you see this.

I don't get noodley, but my "focusing on something else" bad habit is letting my arms come up and straight out, which makes my shoulders come up, and in turn makes me lose knee bend. I have all the years of synchro to thank for that. My coach calls it my imaginary synchro team.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Oh, so too much synchro isn't really a good thing - it should be secondary to the moves and dance disciplines. Good advice, thanks.

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It's a pretty common problem, I have 3 students w/ the exact same thing--arms high in the air---one perpetually skates with her hands level w/ the top of her head!! Not good.

Sychro is a mixed blessing--it gives the girls stamina among other things, but it definitely teaches some very bad habits. Some kids can turn the 'synchro style' switch on & off, some can't.

What's with the attitude?

Synchro was the best thing that happened to me growing up. If it weren't for synchro, I probably would have quit skating as a kid. Instead, I got to compete at the senior level, represent my country internationally, be a college athlete, win numerous national medals, make lifelong friends, learn how to be competitive yet still be part of a team. It taught me dedication, determination, persistence, confidence, and more important lessons than I ever learned in school. If the only "negative" was a few bad habits that occasionally come about in my individual skating (because the bulk of my synchro years were back when you didn't spend as much time focusing on moves and dance like synchro skaters now), that's not too bad of a trade-off. So no, too much synchro is not a bad thing. Thanks.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Thanks again for the tip, Rachel - I just hadn't made the connection between Synchro and bad habits before. It's definitely an eye-opener that I hadn't considered before.

I have several private (mitf/freestyle) students involved in synchro and that explains some of the corrections I have to constantly review during Moves and even Freestyle. I had to remind one of the young ladies, who had really great stroking last season, to stop turning her head on each stroke and stay down on her knees more. Just last week, I said to her "Don't do Synchro stroking with the head turns - this should be strong, confident stroking down the rink, looking where you're going." That really made a big difference, but I thought it was just a fluke.

She just finished the sychro season followed by a few months of twice-weekly synchro classes. IMO, synchro really doesn't improve speed, power or correctness of crossovers or turns - there's no way for the coaches to teach the patterns/steps/etc. and correct technique mistakes. The skaters are toe pushing and side stroking more, I think out of fear that they'll hit the person next to them in line. That toe pushing is showing up during Moves, which is a worst-case scenario.

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That must explain my arms- I have years and years of drill team (kickline) experience, and a little bit of synchro. If I'm told "arms up" they go to shoulder height. It's nearly impossible for me to hold them practically at my waist where my coach seems to want them.

I also notice that while I can check strongly out of the turn, holding the check is nearly impossible and my arms drift slowly to the other side.

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I wonder if the other side of the coin is that Synchro is good for those skaters who never remember keep their arms up at all? I've threatened to sew up pockets if I see hands in them again, lol.

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I don't want anyone to get the wrong ideas about synchro. Being a synchro skater won't necessarily give you any bad habits. It completely depends on the person and I wouldn't want anyone discouraging any skater from doing synchro because they think it will give them bad habits. Isk8NYC, I think you're getting the wrong ideas.....and I don't think synchro is necessarily to blame for the problems your students are having. It could be any number of things. I really dislike the way this thread is turning. Being a synchro skater helped me tremendously, and I'm sure I speak for a lot of other skaters when I say that.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Thanks for the ideas, folks!

I think it does stem from doing things wrong down below (if I'm not on the right part of the blade or my balance is off, hey, I can throw my arm around!). And trying to keep about 12 commands in my head at the same time (for example, those 3s in the field: where's your free foot? you're dropping your free hip! don't look down! look in the direction you're going! tuck your butt under! bend your knees! get your weight over your skating foot! don't let your shoulders get crooked! and so on).

I don't swing my arms on power pulls, although I've seen that approach. Not really sure how that would work.

I have done lots of other sports and dance, but it's apparently not rubbing off on my skating enough. That quiet upper body I was so good at in ski racing? Those graceful hands from ballet? HA! I probably do need to work on different core strength moves, too--more yoga, more BOSU and such. I will definitely try the hands behind the back or over the head for a start. This morning I did a lot of 3-turns in front of the glass, watching my upper body very closely. Hopefully that helped.

Interesting comments about synchro. I know our synchro coach uses synchro as a method of teaching both basics and challenging the better skaters. For instance, I'd never know how to do a FI twizzle or a FI-BI counter, or outside swing mohawks, were it not for synchro!

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I think it's fine in moderation, and the comraderie is awesome.

You and Rachel have proclaimed several times that you're loyal to a fault for Synchro and have had a wonderful skating experience in the sport. That doesn't mean everyone has to agree with you and I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. However, the mechanical doll-like head turning on stroking is purely a synchro move, so I don't have the wrong idea, but thank you for your concern.

I'll split this discussion out to a new thread, because I think it's really valuable and enlightening.

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I have several friends who think synchro is the best thing since sliced bread and really enjoy it, so I took a class a few years ago and found, to everyone's amusement, that I can't stand having a bunch of people who are not my dance coach or partner touching me all the time! Ick! It's not for everyone.

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You miss 100% of the shots you never take.--Wayne Gretzky

Fine in moderation? Like.....one day a week? Twice? You realize "in moderation" isn't how a synchro team works. I was on a pretty low level synchro team this past season and we practiced 3-4 hours a week. Novice, Junior & Senior teams do much more. What's too much? Yes, Rach and I both love synchro and of course we both realize that not everyone agrees. It doesn't hurt my feelings. It's fine to not like it or not want to do it. It's not every skater's cup of tea. I completely respect that. I just don't want a coach to discourage a skater from synchro because the coach thinks it *might* hurt their individual skating. That's not true for every skater and it should be the skater's choice anyways.

The "mechanical doll like head turning" has a name. It's called guiding. When you guide, you're looking in the direction that you're going. I'm very confused as to what you said about your student..."who had really great stroking last season, to stop turning her head on each stroke and stay down on her knees more. Just last week, I said to her "Don't do Synchro stroking with the head turns - this should be strong, confident stroking down the rink, looking where you're going." That doesn't make any sense. In synchro, if you're in a line and just stroking forward, you're looking forward. You're not turning your head if you're just going forward. If she's turning her head back and forth when she's just going forward, well, that's not how synchro is taught. I'm familiar with the teams at your rink and they're all pretty good....is your student on one of those?

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Is guiding when they turn their head on every stroke, even when they're skating down the rink from end to end? If so, it's guiding. I think it's just leftover synchro choreography that's getting in the way of her mastering Moves, which is her goal for the summer.

Our synchro team skaters all take private moves and freestyle lessons, many also do dance. That's moderation, not time limits or frequencies.
I don't think synchro alone really develops good technique, only because the coaches are stretched so thin and ice time is so expensive.
Frankly, the flying camels our Intermediate team did were NOT learned through synchro - those skaters spent hours individually working on moves and freestyle.

Skaters that are good at Synchro are well-rounded and able to change styles more easily.
However, the lower-level skaters aren't able to do that until they've begun to master moves and freestyle, so that they understand the difference.

Isn't that what both you and Rachel have said - you both do Synchro, but you also take private lessons and work on Moves and Freestyle? It's the same as skating in a dance vs. freestyle skating styles. Depending on what you're working on, you focus on doing it in the correct style.

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I used to think synchro skaters lacked good basic skills, but that's not really true. They have great turns, and great posture.

Where I see a lack - and this is totally a generalization - is in stroking and finishing moves. Some skaters who specialize in synchro tend to be choppy and don't elongate their moves. However, I think this is far more noticible at the lower levels. By the time many synchro skaters get to junior or senior they have the highest level moves and quite often high level dances, which mitigates the synchro stroking influence.

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Hmm my understanding of "guiding" is using your peripheral vision to keep lines straight -that you shouldn't be able to see past the person next to you. When our synchro team used this term, it was because we weren't turning our heads. It's possible that our team used it wrong in the context of skating because of skaters on the team with dance backgrounds.

As for mechanical head turning- honestly, that's offensive. I've never seen good synchro skaters look mechanical, they look together, but never like robots (their knees are too bent and they skate with too much flow for that). I skated on a low level team, and we often did head turns on chasses, but it wasn't an automatic for just stroking. A skater who does that automatically is just picking up a bad habit. I used to do a sort of seig heil/karate chop on my backward crossover stroking. No idea where it came from, but the coach had to stop it quickly, same as a coach would need to stop a freestyle skater from head turning.

I credit synchro with making me skate with much more power than I would have without it. I was the shortest skater on the team, and more often than not the end of the pinwheel, because I learned how to use my pushes. I'd be even more tenative then I am in freestyle without the synchro experience. (It's also where I learned brackets, stars, and a few other steps above my level)

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What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

I'm not trying to be offensive, but that's what it looks like when there's only one skater. Kind of takes the "sync" out of "Synchro" lol.

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Well, no.... Like I said, if you're in a synchro line and just skating forward, you wouldn't be turning your head. What you're describing just doesn't happen....you would never turn your head on every stroke just going forward. Maybe it is choreography...?

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

This. I'm not knocking synchro--I've seen it work wonders w/ students who were shy or downright anti-social before they got involved w/ the team. But it is true (also a generalization, but true) that it *can* mess w/ technique, and as sk8er1964 said, mostly at the lower levels where the skater has not yet learned how to 'switch' technique depending on what they're doing.

I've seen it over & over again--in the young ones it often shows up as back crossovers that suddenly go in a straight line instead of curving on edges. And that "choppy" sort of look to the overall skating & the high arm placement, even in the older ones. They have to learn to skate a different style when not skating synchro, and some do that better than others.

Not trying to offend anyone here, just making an observation from 10+ years of coaching. Most of my kids are synchro kids.

I thought I knew what "guiding" was from when I skated on a (ahem) Precision skating team many, many moons ago. Like Skittl, we used our peripheral vision or you "looked down the line." If you could see past the person next to you, you were out of line.

I think the head-turning is just choreography. The student probably thought it was fancy stroking that would impress the judges or she just didn't even realize she was doing it. That type of correction is needed - thankfully, it was just a practice, but she wants to pass the first moves test on the first try. The mostly-straight knees and high arms are still a work in progress. Those weren't there before she started synchro.

All of my private students tried synchro this year. As someone else said, it's a mixed bag for lower-level skaters.


What impact (if any) do Moves tests have on a skaters' team level? Our coach says it's based on age, not MITF. In our case, the highest-level team has a wide spread of ages, but all have quite a few Moves tests under their belts.

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Synchro reinforces the turns if they have them, but if they don't, they're faking it and trying to catch up during private lessons, lol.

The higher-level synchro skaters do have great turns and great posture, but again, it's a chicken-and-egg question: which came first? Synchro or individual lessons?

Are you watching my lessons? *chuckles* I just corrected those straight-line back crossovers tonight during a lesson. This skater can be forgiven - she's young, she's small, and she's still in the Basic 8's.

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I find it odd that synchro is being blamed for failures in skaters basic technique. Synchro to me isn't about teaching me how to skate, you have to be able to do that first, it's teaching me how to skate with someone standing next to me on either side and to keep in time. Since starting synchro my dance coach has been impressed that I can suddenly keep in time with the music and had attrocious timing before (although I think that's probably more to do with more practice time with music as I can't practice my compulsory dances unless I'm in lesson as we're not allowed to use the music box).
Synchro might teach people to fake turns, but as synchro is progressing from the old drill lines into doing more things no hold (so the arms don't have to be aeroplane arms the whole time, they're back down to more freestyle height) it's forcing people to have to learn how to do the turns properly.
And whilst synchro might not teach flying camels, I bet the requirement to have to do one in the program forced those people to practice them doubly hard to make sure they're right.

I do get the point about stroking with the head turning. If you're skating down the rink and you're on an edge, you look where you're going, so your head is turned and it snaps back when you push onto the next edge. But there's a point where you've got to know how to turn these things on and off. It's similar to the dance and freestyle 3 turns. No one way is correct and a good skater should be able to do both.

As for the comment about doing back crosses in straight lines. A synchro coach showed us a drill last week and emphasised how she didn't want the scratchy straight line back crosses, and she wanted them on a curve. I don't think it's necessarily the coaches generating these bad habits but the kids themselves as they draw a straight line in their heads between A and B and forget that skating is all about curves.

Freestyle/moves coaches who coach synchro skaters...you all need to realize that if it weren't for synchro, a lot of your students probably would not still be skating. And taking lessons from (and paying) you. So quite frankly, if there are teams at your rink, it's in your best interest to learn about synchro, be supportive of those skaters, and not trash it. I've stopped taking from coaches who did this when I was younger. It's no different than when I was still coaching synchro (I had pre-juv, open junior, and collegiate) and I had freestyle skaters who were going to regionals, an ice dancer who had a partner, etc. They weren't hardcore synchro skaters, they were just doing it for fun. I never, ever, ever would have made any negative comments about their other skating goals, made sure I was supportive when they had to miss team practices for individual competitions, and that I had good professional relationships with all their individual coaches.

Again...WHY are they taking private lessons from you? Because they want to be a singles skater, or because they are doing it to augment their synchro? You have to take private lessons when you're a synchro skater. Maybe in the 80s-early 90s some teams could get away not doing it. But on every team I've been on (and I skated on teams from about 1991-2008, other than a few years during college), long before the USFS implemented test requirements, we were required to have private lessons and do moves (patch before moves came along) and they wanted us doing dance, too.

I've always gone to my coach for help in private lessons with things I needed work on in synchro when I was still skating on a team, because you do need to practice some things on your own outside of team practice time in order to get them. I wasn't catching up in private lessons, I was getting help on things I needed help with and making sure all my turns were being done on the correct edges that were deep enough with the free foot positions and everything else our coaches wanted in place (like RBO double twizzle-change edge-RBI loop--that turn combo took me a long time to get down). Because guess what? You can't fake turns under IJS. Your team won't get the step stequence called. And if I botched a step sequence, and so did 2 other skaters, and that resulted in us not getting a call and losing by fractions of a point as a result, I wasn't just letting myself down, I was letting 15 other people down, too.

I think some of the issue is geography. Stormy had I have been fortunate enough to be around and part of some of the biggest synchro programs in the country. Walk into a rink where the Hayden or Crystallette or Miami University or Chicago Jazz teams are practicing. Watch the individual ability of these skaters, and then how it all meshes together. Guarantee it's a whole lot different than what you all may see at your rinks. I'm not saying that watching these teams should make everyone love synchro--not everyone will, I get that. But you would at least see that a lot of these false beliefs are just that.

And there are some synchro habits that are not "bad." For example, on rockers, on the entry edge, I always have my free foot placed they way the last club I skated with always did them in the program. Or my free foot on twizzles comes up to the exact spot our coach wanted us to hit. There is nothing wrong about those type of things. They don't look goofy when I do them on my own. It's just a stylistic thing.

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2010-2011 goals:
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Some levels have MIF requirements.

Senior--novice MIF
Junior--intermediate MIF
Novice--juvenile MIF
Intermediate--pre-juvenile MIF
Juvenile--preliminary MIF
Collegiate--preliminary MIF
Adult--preliminary, first figure, adult bronze MIF

Now...those are just the USFS-imposed tests. Most clubs want higher test levels and have for quite some time (long before USFS had any requirements, USFS test requirements were talked about for a good 8 years or so before it ever passed). Most of the internationally competitive senior teams want skaters with one, if not multiple gold tests, and I've seen skaters with 2 and 3 gold tests cut from some of these teams. To make some of the top junior teams, you had better be hovering around the junior/pre-gold dance mark, if not higher. That trickled down to wanting higher tests on lower levels, too. My old collegiate team wanted intermediate moves. My old adult team didn't have a written rule, but all of us had at least novice. And there are always a few exceptions even at the bigger clubs--there are a few coaches who will look the other way on their own higher test requirements for a skater who has the right skills and the right motivation and just fits the team. Other teams, especially newer ones, teams from smaller clubs, or those in areas where they are struggling for numbers, are much less picky.

There are a lot of open levels which don't have any USFS-imposed requirements (someone correct me if I'm wrong, haven't been coaching and therefore keeping up with rules for these levels). It's mostly just the qualifying levels.

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2010-2011 goals:
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Probably.

You're talking about the perimeter stroking on the prepreliminary MITF? I don't think it would make much difference to the judges what she does with her head unless it's really distracting. The main points on that move are to avoid toe pushing and to cover the length of the ice in 4-8 strokes. Nice knee bend, real edges especially on the crossovers around the ends, and nice upper body carriage including arms would also be appreciated of course.

It's very rare not to pass that test and especially that move.

ITA, but it has happened. Our club has a reputation for difficult moves tests, including the PPM. At one test session, a coach got a five-minute critique of every thing the skater did wrong on PPM, even beyond the test sheet - shoulders weren't back, toes weren't pointed, etc. I watched the test and didn't see anything glaring like that - it was a low-level skater. She passed, but still, here they don't want to see skaters who aren't more than ready. The things I pointed out are distracting and show weaknesses. Strong moves tests are always better.

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