I am a professional machinist. Almost every day I cut and grind and make something or other out of metal. So all I can say about the following link is is this a joke!?!?

http://www.revolhockey.com/SharpTastic.htm

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I'm a boy, and I can figure skate if I want to.

You are the machinist, so should be able to evaluate it better than us.

But it looks intuitively reasonable to me.

It might fix the issue with the Pro-Filer hand sharpener (I have links here), that it is too slow to remove much metal efficiently if you let the blade go too flat., or if you wanat to change the rocker profile.

A few issues could occur:

1. It is specifically geared towards hockey players. It is possible it would work poorly at the toe pick, or that it might be hard to avoid rounding off the back of the blade. If I had to guess, it probably isn't a problem, but I can't tell.

2. There doesn't seem to be any way to follow a given rocker profile that I can see. So you would have to be careful, and keep comparing the profile to a photocopy or tracing of the original profile.

Because it doesn't hold the skate for you, and there is no profile following guide, you might end up removing more metal than the .003" or so / sharpening that a good sharpener using a good machine can achieve. High end figure skating blades cost a lot, so this could be a problem.

I might be wrong about the guide. Perhaps the position of the metal piece imposes a specific rocker diameter - which is smaller than that of a figure skating blade.

3. It doesn't list the hollow radius. But the "Skate Sharpening 101" links implies 7/16" is the one the company favors. That may or may not be what you prefer to use. I currently use 3/8", and have also used 5/16" on thin MK Dance blades.

If you do the hand sharpening thing to finish it, and bend the lips into thin sheet edges that slices into the ice, the hollow radius is less relevant, because the edge sheets provide most of the bite. Perhaps 7/16" is good enough.

I wonder if you could fit a smaller diameter cylindrical grinding tool (e.g., from MotoTool) into it.

4. It looks like it does a cross grind (i.e. it turns across the blade, not along it). I'm not sure if everyone agrees that is the best way. But it does imply you turn the power off to do a hand grind, that I guess resembles what Pro-Filer does, which would fix any asymmetry a cross grind would create, and the recommended procedure of reversing the direction would help too.

5. I would guess the sanding sleeves don't last all that long - but I might be wrong. Probably a lot cheaper to replace than the Pro-Filer cylindrical stones.

6. As you know, people who love sharp clean edges lubricate grinders and stones with water or oil to create a cleaner edge. Water is less messy, and many people claim water makes a cleaner edge at hand grinding speeds, but if your drill doesn't go slow enough, water may boil.

On the other hand, I don't know whether the sanding sleeves are compatible with water, or oil.

7. If you click on Products you see they offer cheaper and more expensive similar hand and machine sharpening products, that might meet your needs better.

8. I wonder whether it will snugly hug a figure skating blade that is a bit wider than a hockey blade, as is typical. Maybe it won't fit at all?

Not having seen the device, I'm not saying any of these problems exist. Only that they might. I find the concept quite appealing.

If you or someone buys this, I would love to know how well it works, and whether you have compared it to the Pro-Filer. Your experience as a machinist would make you much more qualified than me to evaluate it.

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Mitch Grunes ModifyingBoots FallingGently HomePage

Yeah I'm wondering why they went with a cardboard sleeve instead of something like what Dremel has, a cylindrical stone? Dremel even has a tapered stone, about the same size. My 3 cents.

Anyone with a pro-filer ever "clean" their stones with a brass/bronze brush to extend the life? Just wondering....

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

The pro-filer actually looks like a reasonable device, depending on how coarse it is. It would be good to remove any burrs that show up on your edge without actually sharpening it per-se. I'm sure most of us are not as careful as we should be about never stepping on anything but ice.

http://www.revolhockey.com/Excalibur.htm
This is not a reasonable device. This is just going to fold over a burr that makes your skates feel sharper when they actually aren't. There's no way of getting any consistency.

As for the skate-tastic, they do say it's only for hockey skates, so it's not really even all that relevant for us. I just thought it was completely laughable. The sanding drums are 120 grit. That's rough! They claim in the "dave's tips" section that you can get a surface finish of 4 micro inches using the device. (meaning a height of 4 micro inches between the highest and lowest points on the surface). That is very smooth, it would look like a mirror. Explain how that's possible with a 120 grit sanding drum.

#4 is the big one, grinding across the direction you wish to skate. Every one of those scratches is going to work against you trying to move. Plus the fact that one edge is being (somewhat microscopically) folded over, while the other is stretched out. There's no way the 2 edges can be exactly the same.

The radius is not 7/16 as they say. That would require a drum diameter of 7/8, which they don't make (these are ordinary Dremel tools). The ones in the picture are 1/2" diameter. A piece of cardboard on a rubber holder is not a very reliable way to hold any given radius. The things never run very straight anyway, you always wear the grit off one side first.

You're right that it doesn't control the rocker radius in any way, but neither do ordinary machines. You just put even pressure all along the blade and it should follow the radius that's already there. This would be a lot more difficult in the vertical position the skate-tastic uses. And considering the roughness of the drum and the fact that you'd presumably be doing this many many times, I can see the rocker getting way off. I have heard there are computer controlled skate grinders, but I haven't seen one yet.

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I'm a boy, and I can figure skate if I want to.

Many of us have used the Pro-Filer. The figure kit comes with a course and a fine stone, both with diamond grit. I don't know what the grit numbers are. I wore down and replaced one stone (or did I only fill the grit with particles? I didn't know about using wire brushes to remove particles.) The course stone isn't course enough to sharpen a completely dull blade, or to modify the rocker profile, in a reasonable amount of time.

The Pro-Filer does produces an edge and a hollow that is just as clean and consistent as what the best powered grinders do. If you keep your blades sharp, it takes maybe 5 or 10 minutes, which may or may not be faster for you than dealing with a skate pro shop. It even fits in a skate bag. But it's slower if you need to make major changes.

Unfortunately, the holder doesn't fit my old style Ultima Matrix system removable blade runner mounts, which means I have to remove and replace the runners, which adds 30-60 minutes. That mount doesn't fit the powered skate grinder my favored pro shop likes to use either.

I use the Pro-Filer to do routine sharpenings, but if I let it go too flat or want to change the hollow or play much with the rocker profile, I take the blades into the best available pro-shop. If the SharpTastic were faster than hand sharpening, and worked reasonably well, I could do it myself.

If you sometimes walk off-ice, the sharpest edges are indeed not for you, because anything very sharp is very fragile.

>This is not a reasonable device. This is just going to fold over a burr
>that makes your skates feel sharper when they actually aren't.

A folded and straightened lip or burr is essentially a very thin piece of sheet metal, and is a thinner edge than the angle between the hollow and the side of the skate produces.

That is precisely how you make the sharpest edges, both on skates and on knives. It is the way the edges on many kitchen knives and straight razors work. Kitchen steels and razor strops straighten but don't create that style edge. I can't tell if Excalibur can create it from the picture. If you create a lip carefully, it can be consistent.

But maybe edges created from lips and burrs aren't strong or durable enough for the machine shop work.

In addition, you would need another tool than the Excalibur itself to create a hollow, if you want one. The Pro-Filer can create both, though some people remove the lip or burr with a flat stone instead of bending and straightening it.

>#4 is the big one, grinding across the direction you wish to skate.
>Every one of those scratches is going to work against you trying to move.

But they say you can do a final sharpening after you turn the drill off, by stroking along the blade, which is exactly the way Pro-Filer works. They way I see it, you would only turn the drill on if you had let the blade go unsharpened too long.

>Plus the fact that one edge is being (somewhat microscopically)
>folded over, while the other is stretched out. There's no way
>the 2 edges can be exactly the same.

But they say to reverse the stroke direction half way through the sharpening. I do the same with Pro-Filer.

I also look carefully at the edges, and touch up if needed. I feel them too, but I wouldn't tell someone else to do that, because they might cut themselves. Do you ever feel edges in a machine shop?

>A piece of cardboard on a rubber holder is not a very reliable way to
>hold any given radius. The things never run very straight anyway,
>you always wear the grit off one side first.

A pro shop guy told me the grinding tools on commercial skate grinders change shape with time, and that they vary in shape a bit, even if they are the same brand and model. It's best to come back to the same sharpener, using the same tool, so you waste less metal.

>You're right that it doesn't control the rocker radius in any way, but
>neither do ordinary machines.

AgnesNitt do I remember you said the sharpener from http://www.iceskateology.com has a guide?

MK used to sell a guide, that a local pro shop has, but I'm not sure if it just a template, or if it fits sharpening machines.

>I can see the rocker getting way off.

This happens with any skate grinder. Skating changes the profile a little too. Unchecked, both gradually eliminate the sweet spot and flatten the rocker.

You should periodically compare the blades to the original rocker profile - or change it to the one you want.

You may be very correct. Perhaps the SharpTastic is a good idea implemented badly. Could you make one yourself that works well for figure blades, and sell it to us at a reasonable price?

I like the SharpTastic price. We shouldn't have to pay thousands of dollars. (http://www.iceskateology.com charges $3000.)

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Mitch Grunes ModifyingBoots FallingGently HomePage

Not really. I can't presently conceive anything portable that would do a proper job on them. You need big bearings and a strong spindle to keep the grinding wheel perfectly still. Also just being mounted to a heavy mass of cast iron absorbs vibrations that would effect the surface finish (this is why most machine tools are 2000 to 6000 lbs). You also have to have a device on there for dressing the wheel, which you have to do all the time to keep the radius right.

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I'm a boy, and I can figure skate if I want to.

It is a gimmick! Those cheap little sanding discs wont do squat and will last like 5 seconds. The mandrel for those sanding discs is about 1/2" in diameter so you will only get 1/4" Radius of Hollow (assuming they lasted long enough to remove any metal).

It is junk, just like so many "save money" schemes.

(From 30 years in engineering, my fair share of time in the machine shop, as well as sharpening skates on a PROPER machine! )

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Dianne
(A.O.S.S.? Got it BAD! )

I was waiting for your opinion, RB! Thanks for contributing.

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Woulda been nice.

The SharpTastic folks put a lot of time and effort into designing a nice website, and with pictures of many gadgets, and lots of technical sounding buzzwords. Without practical engineering knowledge, I couldn't figure out it couldn't work (though even I had some doubts), and I'm sure there will be others who go ahead and buy it. They might sell a fair number, if they can market it right.

Rusty, if you are riight, and the sandpaper sleeves last about 5 seconds, at least they won't do too much damage.

Now if only someone like Black and Decker could get into this, maybe they could make a light duty sharpener adequate for a single skater. Based on the cost of other reasonably high precision devices, like small low end lathes, maybe it could cost $300-$400 (US)?.

For that matter Pro-Filer needs some competition. How about a slight modification, with longitudinal (rocker direction) curvature in the grinding stone, and available coarser stones so major changes can be made faster? Couldn't one of you come out with something like that at an affordable price?

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Mitch Grunes ModifyingBoots FallingGently HomePage

That is how you make sales!

The problem (from an engineering standpoint) is that producing a constant Radius of Hollow that is precisely aligned with the centre of the blade is not easy to accomplish. Skates have been around since 3000 B.C. and many sharp minds have pretty much exhausted the ideas.

The Pro-Filer and its predecessors (I remember similar units from the 1960's!) are the best of the best for hand-sharpening but lack the ability to maintain RoH over time. To do a proper sharpening the larger (and more expensive) machines all address sharpening in the same way and the only differences are refinements in the machine design, from the basic $1,000 Wissota to the most advanced $4,000 "Incredible Edger" to the >$10,000 computer controlled sharpeners - the principle is the same only the "frills" are different.

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Dianne
(A.O.S.S.? Got it BAD! )

Their website reminds me of the ones that try to convinve you that if you're tired an overwhelmed you must have some imaginary medical condition and need their miracle cure.

If you can buy a top of the line (non computerized) sharpener for $4000 that sounds pretty good to me. If you want to compare them to lathes, first of all the $500 ones are miniture toys and they don't make good lathes in that size. If you consider a useable size of small lathe (10" swing) a $5,000 one is an extreme piece of crap. $30,000 will get you a pretty good one, and the best in the world is $70,000 (still not computerized). That's brand new prices, and a good one will last much longer than your lifetime.

I think there's a lot more viability in making a blade that needs sharpened less often. The blade is basically a cutting tool like you'd use on a lathe, all the same principals apply. Yet they are currently using something equivalent to cutting tools used in 1900. It would be very easy to add an edge made of high speed steel, I can't fathom why it apparently hasn't been done yet. If you used M42 cobalt steel, it would probably last 100 times as long. There are other still harder materials like tungsten carbide and ceramics, but those are very brittle and you might be able to chip them when landing a jump. There are also many modern hard surface coatings that could be applied, you might make a blade that never needs sharpened.

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I'm a boy, and I can figure skate if I want to.

Rusty, the Pro-Filer uses a cylindrical stone whose radius is the ROH. By the time the radius of the stone changes significantly, the diamond dust abrasive also wears away, and the stone must be replaced (after about 100 sharpenings, though I didn't try a wire brush or whatever the "Diamond dresser" they sell for it is). So it doesn't have a significant ROH maintenance problem, though I feel the device could be improved several ways, and it is way too expensive - $75+$15 shipping, for the figure skating kit (one course and one fine stone, with holders), and you need a different kit for each ROH. Sounds like you folks spend lots of money on your tools, but I love dollar stores. The Pro-Filer doesn't fit my dollar store mentality. A lot of things about skating don't.

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Mitch Grunes ModifyingBoots FallingGently HomePage

Diamond tools are always expensive. That's not really very out of line with other diamond stuff. You would not believe how much you can spend on machinist tools. $1000 worth wouldn't fill your pockets.

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I'm a boy, and I can figure skate if I want to.

My grandmother had a saying; "If you buy cheap, you buy twice" and she has been proven to be right enough times that there's no way I'd buy tools in a dollar store but get high quality ones from a reputable brand instead. They cost a lot more initially but they work out cheaper in the end as they don't need to keep being replaced;

My cheap Draper vernier calipers? Replaced with Mitutoyo digital. My cheap unbranded pliers? Replaced with Knipex. My cheap unbranded screwdrivers? Replaced with high quality branded ones.

The only reason I have to replace tools now is if I lose them. They don't wear out or break.

Sarah