I am new to this board and would like advice. My skater girl wants to compete in USFSA. She has passed pre pre, but the coach says to pass preliminary and then compete at preliminary, that pre pre is too easy for her. I trust my coach, she is wonderful, but I would like to understand this USFSA stuff myself. I have looked up the competition restrictions and axels are allowed at the pre pre level. Are axels actually done at this level in a competition? What would a competitive preliminary routine include? My skater girl is very competitive and likes to win. She has passed ISI 4 and is working on her axel. Her spirals look nice and she can do a good lutz. Spins (back, camel, camel sit) should be ready for a competition in a month or so. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Everything that is allowed is done, at any level. That includes Axels in no-test! Sometimes, in non-qualifying competitions, they will exclude certain elements or break up a level, like "Prelim A - no Axels" and "Prelim B - Axels allowed". Skating down is a way of life in the USFS.

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These days you need at least one solid double in Preliminary to be competitive, at least in the midwest area (Eastern Great Lakes) The last time I watched this level, which was awhile ago, the top Preliminary skaters had two doubles. Most were really struggling with them though!

My daughter was at Preliminary years ago, but even then she had an axel and a double salchow. Not every competition would allow that double, but she had it. At the next level, Pre-juvenile, she had 2-3 consistent doubles. We competed in Ann Arbor at Pre-juvenile, and the top skater there had a double lutz in combination This was back in 2000.

Since this is her first USFSA competition I would allow her to compete Pre-pre and put out that axel in a program. If axels are allowed, you definitely will see them. Sounds to me like Pre-preliminary would be just fine for her.

I do remember my daughter's Pre-pre program......she had a flip/toe, loop/loop, and a solid lutz. She had a good scratch and backspin. A fairly decent sitspin, and a camel that needed work.

In case you think we're a bunch of sandbaggers, she didn't get her first gold medal until Pre-juvenile. We pushed her up the levels as fast as we could since she was older than most when she started. She was ten years old at Pre-preliminary.

the first lesson of USFSA is to read the competition announcements very carefully. At the lower levels it seems like every competition is different regarding what they allow for axels, doubles, etc. Most these days at least in my region will have two separate pre-pre levels, A with no axels or doubles, and B with axel. Prelim is usually the same except that in pre B I think they usually allow two doubles.

The top pre-pre A skaters around here usually have Lutz-loop or Lutz-loop-loop, solid sit-back sit, nice camel, some degree of a layback, and lots of speed. At any given competition, you can usually watch the top four and tell that they're probably landing clean axels in practice, that's how good their singles and combinations are. Prelim is similar; the main difference is that they're faster and they usually have more difficult connecting steps, harder footwork, and overall better skating and in-betweens.

I know you said your daughter likes to win- don't we all?- but frankly, before starting USFSA, I'd prepare her for the fact that she may not medal her first time, and is almost certain to not medal sometimes. USFSA and ISI are whole different ballgames; other people have explained sandbagging well, but the first difference is that while ISI events are usually limited in number so every kid wins something, USFSA groups are frequently made up of 6-10 skaters, with only the top three or four (read: fewer than half) getting a medal. I've known kids, including my best friend, who are devastated at their first USFSA event when they don't win a medal- they've always won medals Only you and her coach can make the decision about whether this is something you want to go into right away.

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USFSA rules limit jumps to an axel at pre-pre, and up to 2 different double jumps in preliminary. Sometimes the local committee will restrict things further at these lowest levels, in our area we frequently see pre-pre divided into "low" (no axel allowed) and "high" (axel permitted). Most of the time, most of the skaters will be trying the maximum jump content permitted by the rules of that particular competition. So unless the announcement of your particular competition is very different from my area, I'd expect axels at pre-pre and attempts at a couple of different doubles (usually sal and toe, occasionally loop instead of toe) at preliminary.

I don't know what part of the country you're in, but I can tell you about the girls in the southwest. Especially in Arizona, if you do not have at least an attempted axel in your program, your base score is simply not high enough to be competitive. Even if some of the girls around here skate clean, if their highest jump is a lutz, they will lose to a girl that falls on an axel. Axels are in almost every pre-pre program, and in every program for the older pre-pre girls.

To be competitive in preliminary, usually the girls have an axel in combonation (axel-half loop-double sal or something like it) and two solid doubles.

This changes in every competition, but generally this is what is seen in my region. In others, I'm sure it's quite different.

Good luck to you and your daughter!

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"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

Thanks to all for the responses. I appears to be as I feared. My skater would feel pretty bad competing with a newly learned axel against skaters doing doubles. ISI is as one poster stated, with chances of getting a medal being pretty good. The largest group she has skated in was six (she took 1st ) My skater is quite unhappy if she does not get 1st or 2nd, and this has happened a couple of times. At least she doesn't cry anymore.

Hmmm.. I wonder how I should approach this with her coach. I am not exactly an expert on skating.

You could tell your coach what you have learned here about the expected level of competition, and explain that your daughter has such high expectatations of herself, that she might not be ready for USFS competitions.
Your coach will have a much better idea of the local competition your daughter is likely to encounter and what your daughter's chances might be.

My daughter was in a local competition at the prelim level in which two of the girls landed clean Axels, and a third (from our rink) who was a stronger, faster skater than my daughter, landed an Axel, but only on her third try. Her coach said after all had skated, that my daughter would likely get second or third. She was right on, as my daughter had skated a clean program with an Axel and tied the girl from our rink for third out of seven. We were all thrilled, as none of us had expected a medal at all.

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If I may put in a differing opinion--though you may not know much about skating yet, you can, and must, be an overwhelming teacher for your daughter about skating being for herself, to skate well, have fun, show good sportmanship, and then, let the chips fall where they may. If she can't bring herself around to that, she's going to have a very hard time competing USFSA. You cannot place her only in competitions where you think she'll win. This isn't realistic, & it may just serve as motivation & challenge if she gets beat sometimes. You can't control the judges, you don't know how anyone else is going to skate or what they'll pull off--all she can do is work hard, skate her best, as see what happens.

Besides, there is such a thing as putting someone out (be it on a test or a competition) for the experience, to gain "mileage" in a performance setting, to let the judges start to figure out who she is, to get her used to controlling nerves--there are lots of reasons. Remember how the tv announcers always talk about an elite skater's first trip to Worlds as pretty much purely for the experience? It works all the way down to this level too. You have to start somewhere--& it most likely won't be at the top.

Good luck to you & your skater, I hope you both learn to love this great sport. But she must be in it for herself--otherwise she won't last long.

someone told me when they start doing well is when a good coach moves them up to the next level and then they start at the bottom again ie coming in last or next to last. it takes awhile to move up.
I like usfsa better than isi,at least you can tell how they did.She did two isi and one usfsa and did better in the usfsa.She is competing with much older kids but still did well.
Maybe she should learn that she will not always come in first or second.sometimes it is about the process, not the end result.

Yes, she is and will continue to adjust to not coming in 1st or 2nd. The only way to really lose is not to try. I just want her to have a chance. Maybe our local competitions do not feature the high level at the pre pre and preliminary that has been presented here??

Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Remember that in USFSA competition, test level only determines the MINIMUM skills that a skater has to be able to do to compete at that level. Generally, you don't test up until you have the skills needed to be competitive at the next level - which are way more difficult than the test requirements. As an example, the axel is not required on a test until the Juvenile level, but you'll see it at Pre-pre unless it is specifically not allowed. Very competitive Juveniles do double axels. The only way to be sure of the difficulty of your area would be to go to some local USFSA competitions and observe. Or, talk to local USFSA club members and ask what their experiences have been. I agree with posters who have said that it isn't about winning, necessarily, but more about aquiring new skills, conquering nerves, etc. - you're primarily in competition with yourself. Did I meet my goals for this competition? If so, then I was successful, regardless of my placement. The point of USFSA competition is not to give as many skaters as possible the opportunity to win, but to filter out eventual National Champions. Still, there are many ways to play the game. My daughter and I choose to focus on her progress and skill development (though of course it's exciting when she places well!). If your focus is on winning, more than likely you're going to be disappointed a lot.

what do the other kids at the rink or area do in her level?Watch the other kids and see what they do.I would have a real talk with her coach as well.
The last poster was right about being at the bottom and moving up.
good luck no matter what happens !!

I'll probably know more about what skaters at lower levels do after I watch the Chesapeake Open this Friday (a bunch of kids I skate with are competing), but I know that the rule among coaches around here (mid-Atlantic) is that skaters should stay at no-test until they can land an axel, that is, a fully-rotated axel. As Clarice pointed out, the minimum test level is not what is competitive. I know the Hershey Open in August will have 2 pre-pre levels, one that allows an axel and one that doesn't, but most other competitions I've seen have only 1 pre-pre category, and if you want to be competitive, you better have an axel.

A 10-year-old skater at my rink just passed her Pre-pre FS. She has already passed MIF tests through Pre-Juv and is getting ready to test Juv at the end of the summer. As you can imagine, her basic skating skills are strong, and her spinning is better than most kids at her level that I've seen in practice. But her coaches waited until she had her axel to test. Her program, at least as of last week, has a flip, lutz, loop-loop, axel, and sal. (I'm not sure if she is doing a toe separately or as part of a combo, her program changed slightly after she tested.) Her spins are camel-sit, sit, layback, and back scratch. I'm not sure if she intends to put a forward scratch in somewhere. She can do a back sit, albeit slowly, but I don't think it's in her program at this point. Another pre-pre skater at my rink does have a sit-back sit combo in her program.

Since 2 different doubles are allowed at Prelim, coaches around here usually insist that a skater can do a 2 toe and 2 sal before testing to that level. Pre-Juv allows 4 doubles - you get the picture.

Encourage your daughter to view her first competition as a learning experience. She doesn't need to medal to have a successful competition. After all, I bet even Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen didn't win their first competitions! I read an article once where Michelle recalled her first competition and said she forgot her program halfway through.

Thanks for all the help. I have worked out everything on the phone with her coach. The coach and I usually talk at the rink, where it is very hectic. People sometimes line up to talk their coaches.