A little background: I switched coaches recently due to relocation. I spin CCW.

My former coach, who taught me the backspin (first from a standstill, and then from a back pivot), taught me to go immediately into a closed position out of the preparatory 3-turn, without spinning with my left leg out and open. I can get a fairly fast, tight backspin this way, and I was perfectly happy with it until...

My new coach wanted me to start my backspin with an open leg position so that I could gain more speed as I closed in, and also so I could start prepping for illusions and for variations on the back upright spin.

I cannot, for the life of me, do a back spin with my free leg out. If I try to keep my hips open with the free leg out, I cannot control the spin at all--I fall onto an inside edge, I tip over, etc. If I try to keep my hips closed with my free leg out, I don't fall over, but I travel a lot, and the spin is slow (and doesn't really speed up when I close in). After the first month of working on this and finding that it was not going anywhere good, my coach just decided to hang it up and let me go back to the way I was doing the spin before (which is centered, fast, and usually gets 7+ revolutions before starting to go wonky).

But I want to learn the spin with the open leg position anyway, since I know that I will never get any variations out of a back upright spin otherwise.

Is there some trick to this?

Yes, there is a trick. I am assuming you can do a forward camel or at least are working on it. If so, you should begin work immediately on the back camel. Why? The positions involved in initiating the basic backspin are best learned in the bcamel. This sounds crazy, but it is absolutely true!

I am a very strong spinner, but always had trouble w/ the simple upright bspin. I tended to rotate on an inside edge. However, I could do many good (correct) backward spins including camel, illusion, sit, flying camel, butterflies into bsits, etc. Finally, my coach gave me the back camel tip. It apparently just dawned on him one day that I did not use the same technique entering the basic bspin as the bcamel. Therein, lay my problem.

I wrote in my journal about this experience and my coach's specific instructions. I hope it is helpful to you. The entry is called "Backspin Paradox".
www.skatejournal.com/sept01.html#paradox

This week I wrote a new backspin entry based on advice I rec'd from this board. (Many thanks to the wonderful person (Flo?) who provided the excellent advice!!!) It may be found as follows:
www.skatejournal.com/current.html#wealth

Good luck!

Kay

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Kay--Thanks for posting those links. I read your advice and your descriptions are very helpful. I can't wait to try some of your ideas on the ice. I've been having the same problems with the upright backspin that you described having in the past. I love to spin in general, so not having a really fast or consistent backspin has been challenging to me.

Thanks again!

Wow, Kay, I never thought of it that way. Thanks for the tips. I'm Pre-Bronze and can do a forward camel, but I'm only up to 2 revs (on a good day) on my backspin. I've played around with a back sit a few times, not really getting anywhere, b/c I remember that my forward scratch improved after I started working on the forward sit - I was thinking the same progession might apply to a back scratch. It hasn't so far.

Maybe I'll try what you suggested, although I admit that I'm scared at the thought of spinning backward in camel position, but hey, I'll try anything.

Actually, it's the Bronze moves (specifically those power 3's) that are keeping me from testing Bronze FS, but my inconsistent loop and lousy backspin play a role as well.

Thanks for the tip. I will try entering a back upright spin from a LBI spiral and see how that goes.

I can do a back camel from a RFI 3-turn entry with far more success than the open position backspin... I do my back camels with my shoulders parallel to the ice (although I do my forward camels with my shoulders open). You'd think that all I would have to do is stand up the back camel, but somehow my hips don't seem to want to cooperate. I can, by the way, do a back sit from the back camel, although I also hate the back sit (very awkward position for me, although it apparently looks OK). Most likely, my problems with the back upright and the back sit are related.

How do I get my hips under me in the upright position? Or should I not think about that at all?

Thanks again for the advice. I am determined to get this spin!

I assume you mean that your freeleg is open and bent, then you pull in? I find it helpful to concentrate on two things - stabilty in the entry (no rushing) and keeping over my right side the entire time.

Incidentially, getting the backspin correct from this entry is important for more than just spin variations. It's essentially the same movement you will need for full rotation on your doubles, which I assume from the strength of your axel you are working on.

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I assume you will be stepping down to spin on the right foot. This should help you. Let us know how it goes.

The bsit from bcamel is all hip snap. As you open from the camel, snap the hip closed and descend. Your free leg will close to the front so you can sit right down. If you do not gain speed in the transition, you are not snapping correctly.

Kay

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I have recently found myself doing the backspin with an open starting position for the first time, and it came from practicing the reverse sitspin from a forward inside edge entrance. Here's why:

What finally got me doing the reverse sit from the RFI edge entrance was waiting until the edge was really finished before snapping the hip in and also really extending the free leg behind me on the entrance edge. Now that I'm doing the same thing on the entrance to the reverse scratch, I find that my free leg is extended out in front of me when I turn into the spin! It's great!

Thanks everyone for all the tips. I can't wait to try all of these pointers.

OK. One last question...
If your body is a clock, with 12:00 being directly in front of you, where do you keep your free leg before pulling in (assuming you spin CCW)?

I ask this because on a forward upright spin (before pulling in for a scratch spin), I am most comfortable centering the spin with my right leg out between 2:00 and 3:00 (I think that's more "open" than most other people's free legs, but that's the only way I can center them...free leg out as if I'm setting up for a layback)

So...on the back spin, should my free leg be out between 9:00 and 10:00? Or should it be more closed, like at 11:00?