I'm a USFSA skater, but I was looking at the ISI levels and noticed that you have to do a opposite way lutz, flip or loop on one of the levels, meaning that if you normally jump counterclockwise you're supposed to do a clockwise loop/flip/lutz. Also in another level they wanted a choice of one: axel in opposite direction or double axel.

Why is this necessary? Wouldn't it be extremely hard for the skater to attempt a clockwise jump- let alone an axel?! How does this help the skater? I can imagine it holding the skater back and ruining their normal counterclockwise jumps (clockwise if they're a lefty.) Anyone know why this is required? Of course I understand that all turns, crossovers etc. must be done both clockwise and counterclockwise-- but jumps?!

Thought it might be interesting to see what others think and for ISI skaters to tell me if they had difficulty completing these required opposite way jumps. I can't even do a waltz jump clockwise without two-footing the landing and feeling really out of whack in the air.

Some of us were just talking about this today and one of the younger coaches thought this would be the way skating would go in the future - learning to go in both directions - talk about well-balanced!!!

I think if you started in the beginning learning in both directions it would not be as hard as if you learn everything in one direction and then start working on the other way...

I mean, what happens after quads? Somehow cannot imagine quintuple jumps!

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Many people on this board are much better skaters than I am. I just add my tiny 2 cents here...

Doing jump in opposite direction is not as difficult as one might think. I have seen several teenagers doing axels the other way at my rink and I have seen an adult doing double toe both ways in a competition.

I am a 42 old adult started skating 8 years ago from scratch and I do both USFSA and ISI. Like most skaters, I practice jumps and spins in my way most of the time and do footwork/MIF both ways. However, I found that once I understand how a particular jump/spin works, learning to do it the other way is quicker than learning it the first time. It does not mean that I can do the other way as good as my normal way because I don't practice it often. But it is doable.

BTW - my most difficult "clean" jump is an axel (ISI FS5), and my most diffcult opposite jump is a loop (ISI FS7). So it is not the opposite jump blocking me from testing up.

I feel that doing stuff the other way uses different muscles and requires different coordination, which can make myself stronger and healthier, which is one of the main reasons I got into skating.

This may just come down to personal choices. If one does not want to waste time learning jumps the other way, ISI has separate test/competition levels for USFSA skaters. I believe these levels do not require opposite direction jumps.

I have noted ISI offers a choice on the opposite jump issue, as you said.
As a CW skater who now teaches, I have to do jumps in the opposite direction to show the kids what to do. Most of the time a walk-through is fine. I can manage a small jump for most of the basics. When I show them "what it will look like", I do it in "my direction".

I had a student who could do a waltz equally well in both directions from a stand still but got confused skating into it. I used her turning direction on the ice as her dominant direction. However, I did not discourage her from jumping both ways.

In this video Carole Heiss performs a series of four axels, alternating rotational directions at ~2:10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKwbF...eature=related

Kay

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The ISI does have opposite jumps. (Choice of opposite loop,flip, or lutz on Test 7 and Choice of opposite axel or double axel on Test 9.) But they also have brought in a new Testing Tract for people who have problems with these items......They added their own Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum divisions where the skater can choose their best moves off the test levels. For example, I am doing the Platinum test next so I have a choice off the moves from tests 7-10. Since I find opposite jumps incredibly hard to do, I won't be choosing them. I have the option of using another jump instead since you can pick and choose from the moves to fullfill the jump requirement.

Yes, opposite direction is very hard for some people. Others find it easy. I am definitely one of those who is NOT ambidextrous (which is one of my main problems, along with closed hips on those MITF tests.) Although I'd rather struggle with opposite axel anyday than one MITF pattern. Thank goodness for the new Testing Tract at ISI!!! Yeah!!!

Oh, and I wanted to add, the new levels are not an adult tract. I do any age skater can take them instead of the traditional freestyle tests.

They offer a choice for doing the opposite axel but you must choose between an opposite loop, flip or lutz on another level.

I can understand doing CCW jumps such as waltz, etc. but axel just seems extreme to me. Have you ever worked on doing bigger CCW jumps, just for the sake of the lesson? I also agree with turning direction, I think turning direction is the most telltale indicator of natural direction, if a skater can do RFI and LFO 3turns the easiest then of course that applies to the direction of scratch spin, backspin, flip, toe loop, and salchow.

Is there any point value to doing opposite jumps in competition?
Congrats on the axel I'm never going to get my late 40s mother to do any jumps she prefers footwork.
I'd think my coordination would be messed up from switching back and forth. But that's just me, I'm the type of skater who falls on a RFO waltz threes after working on LFO waltz threes, because my muscles were expecting to turn the other way.

Really? So the skater can skip something that is too hard for them to do? ISI misstepped there..

That's kind of the point of the test. ISI higher level tests are MEANT to be hard.

Skaters who skate ISI at the high levels are in it for the challenge. There is no purpose of taking the high ISI tests except to prove to yourself and others you can do these ridiculous requirements. They are hard for the sake of being hard.

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Yes, you are right. I just looked at the requirements again.
http://www.skateisi.com/site/Sub.Cfm...Requirements#7
Levels 7 & 10 require opposite jumps. Level 10 req's the 4 axel jump sequence performed by Heiss in the link I posted previously. Very hard to pass 10. last I heard, passing this test is rare and there are only a handful who do.

The only bigger jumps in the opp direction I have tried are the half jumps. Only a few of my skaters jump beyond sal and toe.

Kay

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The ISI's intent was to continuously challenge skaters by mixing in one or two really TOUGH elements in each level. The goal was to prevent skaters from finishing all the tests and walking away from skating programs because there was nothing left. The unfortunate result was that many skaters found themselves "stuck" at a level because of one or more of these "stretch challenge" elements.

For example, ISI FS5's axel held back many, many skaters. Younger skaters would often switch over to the USFSA standard-track, but back in the day, the USFSA didn't have anything to offer adult skaters other than ice dance and figures. That changed when the USFSA Basic Skills and Adult-track testing came into existence and started drawing rinks and skaters away from the very-welcoming ISI program.

The highest-level ISI tests have to be done in front of specially-certified judges, so those tests often take place at the National Conference or one of the other national ISI events.

In an effort to simplify the tests and recoup some of their lost market share, the ISI reorganzed their Freestyle test levels into four new, consolidated levels. The test forms are here:
http://www.skateisi.com/site/content...stlyeForms.pdf

I never had an issue with the opposite-direction jumps. It's quirky, but having watched someone train for the elite ISI tests, it's far from impossible. By the time a skater has reached the ability to do doubles and triples, they have tremendous body control and have overcome their reliance on one direction over another.

It used to be a novelty for an ISI skater come out and jump/spin in both directions during a USFSA competition. However, it's much more common today. Some of the elite skaters today, such as Emily Hughes, include those elements regularly. (eta: I'm not saying Hughes was a former ISI skater, just pointing out that she has included opposite-direction spins in her Nationals programs.)

I'd have to defer to the board's IJS specialists for the scoring - I believe "opposite direction" spins are considered a "feature" under IJS, but I don't know about jumps.

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I am happy to know that your mom also skates.

For people at our age, the biggest challenge is probably staying healthy. Footwork is excellent for us because while it can be difficult, it does not take a huge toll on our old body. I love footwork too and can do it as often as I like. For freestyle, I feel exhausted after only half hour.

I have no doubt that you can master all these turns quickly, in both directions. Keep practicing both ways and you will have great footwork to put in your program. Even elite skaters have their prefer side but they still try to match both directions as much as possible.

BTW, Thank you Isk8NYC. I always learn something from your post.

Took me about two trainings to learn the loop CW, and I only worked on it briefly in each. I'm usually CCW. Just saying. For me, the mistakes I was making in my CW loop were the exact same ones I was making when I started learning the loop so it was a piece of cake to fix it.

Well, I guess that depends on how you look at it. ISI is much more inclusive and, I think, their structure encourages rather than discourages participation and, in the end, isn't that what we all want? (Some skaters are discouraged by a strict, unbending test structure and will, unfortunately, just give up and choose not to participate at all.)

I understand why ISI did it. It allows skaters to compete, hence keeping ISI (and the member rinks) in business.

But the skater can't say they have the ISI 10 test- and that test is a HUGE accomplishment.

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Oh, I totally agree with Skittl. I could never say I was an ISI 10, I'd have to say ISI Platinum ......But I like these new tests because they are a way for all skaters to be included and compete instead of a skater being so discouraged by one or two items on a test, (and the subsequent inabiltiy to progress further so that they can use other moves they might have), that they just don't participate at all.

In USFSA, almost every young skater achieves Senior level testing, even if they don't achieve Senior level competition. ISI certainly has a level that is very hard to complete, and I can understand why they needed to address the issue of skaters moving to USFSA due to the difficulty.

Is the opposite loop the easiest to achieve? I initially thought flip, because a CW flip is sort of like a CCW toeloop, just on an inside edge.

That's far from true -- many young skaters max out their skills well before they get anywhere near senior test level. And many others quit without testing out because they lose interest.

But it is true that there's a much larger group of skaters who do test all the way to senior than those who can compete successfully or at all at the higher levels.

Well, give them a try and see what's easiest for you.

I'm not much of a jumper any more myself. I could pass the ISI freestyle 4 but not 5. (When I was younger I had the jumps but not the steps or camel spin, now more the opposite.)

When playing around for fun a few times I could walk through tiny waltz jump, salchow, and toe loop in the opposite direction, but the only one I could do with any speed and lift was waltz jump.

Spins in both directions: with ISU Communication 1611, will only count in camel and sit positions. That's a real shame as I just figured out spinning more than once CCW.

Jumps in both directions: the most notable skater who could/does jump in both directions in Rohene Ward. This guy has done up to 3Lz in both directions. My male coach can do at least through Axels in both directions and has shown me 2S before as well (a little cheated CW, but hey, his technique was right. ). It helps when you are teaching an opposite direction skater. It also helps if you are a gifted jumper to be able to break down the element for a student (eventually) because you typically need a better understanding of the technique in your non-natural direction. My male coach has me do jumps in both directions to teach how to transition weight in jumps and to break down sloppiness in technique (you can't be sloppy if it feels really weird - it causes many bruises).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAdIn...eature=related
2A both ways and spins in both directions. A shame he could never get the competition nerves under control or his work ethic (if you believe the rumors)

Thanks for the link to Rohene's performance. Every time I rooted for him, he had a poor performance. I'm such a jinx - it's amazing that Lysacek did so well this season with me in his corner, lol.

Rohene Ward is an awesome skater and I loved his alternating-direction laybacks. Just incredible to watch.

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This is completely untrue. Only a tiny fraction of the skaters who begin the USFS testing process ever complete their senior moves and senior freeskate. The vast majority drop out somewhere around the juvenile level.

Actually in practice sessions at 2004 Nationals in Atlanta I watched Rohene do 2A,3S combo!!! The 2A was clockwise(his opposite)..landing on LBO edge...edge pull into LBI edge up into the 3S ccw! He was doing that in his free skate practices..it (along with most of his jumps) never materialized in competition.

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Heeeheee. Maybe that's cuz I was watching Plushenko for years hoping he'd win and he always did, but these Olympics I didn't watch (was in the middle of real life stuff) and look what happened!.. Clearly I need to watch more figure skating. ^_^ LOL.

Probably personal preference but if you can do the back outside 3's clockwise comfortably, the cw loop shouldn't be that hard, and you can cheat the take-off and landing majorly so you only do half a rev in the air if you're afraid of jumping in that direction at first (you should get over the cheating eventually though, I suspect it won't count otherwise, certainly won't do your technique any favours). I also *might* have had the advantage that I had a figure skating friend who's a wrong-side jumper to watch her do it first before trying, not sure if that helped or not. I'd say just give them all a try and see what you can do. CW-toe loop is actually also really easy, can you do that one for your purpose?

Checking a landing in the other direction to what you're used to is a little confusing though, muscle memory tends to kick in and mess things up (kinda like trying to do a half-loop when you can do a loop, it's confusing). I did a cw waltz jump in an artistic competition cuz I needed to do a jump but I had a landing-leg injury and just cuz of the nerves tried to check it ccw-style (could do it in training just fine, actually had to do it for a club test at one point even)... Checking in the wrong direction for the jump doesn't work so well. Might wanna add cw-landing edge training drills for a while to get it right (like for example cw back crossovers on a hockey circle into landing position, keep for a full circle not going into or outside of the circle)

Wow, that was incredible. But it kills me that no one applauded for the cross figure at the beginning!

Thanks for posting the Rohene vid. He's awesome. his split lutz is amazing. Never see that these days.

The prob w skaters learning these skills (opp direction jumps) seems the same w the walley argument. If the skill is not recognized and rewarded, why do it when it obviously takes a lot of time and dedication to learn. Skates are busy learning jumps and combos in their natural direction. may as well do those if opp jumps do not gain more points.

I posted here a few yrs ago a comment about opp jumping, specifically the lutz. I would love to see a lutz combo. Lutz one way, land, toe in, lutz the other way. It would be incredible.

Kay

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Oops, let me reword the senior level thing.
"In USFS, almost every young serious skater achieves Senior level testing."
Better?

Amazing skater.. I can't believe that he could do a salchow coming out of an opposite axel..!

Actually, I haven't started loops, flips, or toeloops yet. Besides half toeloops/flips, no half loops yet. I can do a back double three CCW, haven't tried CW yet, still trying to get CW BO 3turn consistent. Actually, it might not be a true double three, I taught myself that after seeing other skaters do them.
The few times I've tried a CW waltz, I always two footed the landing because half my brain was trying to land on my right foot and the other half insisted on landing on my left foot