I have learned that the Chief Ref decided not to have the numerical scores posted at AN. Does anyone know if the judges actually gave numerical scores then just posted ordinals or did the judges just watch...take notes..and make an ordinal placement. I would be interested in getting my numerical scores...can we ask the judges directly?

No big deal if I cant get the scores...just thought it would help in preparation for next tests!

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Hi MSF,

As far as I know, the judges do give two marks (technical and presentation) and then base their ordinals off of those marks.

I also was interested in seeing my marks for this year. However, I don't really know if we can get a look at them now. I would imagine the accountant and event ref for each event saw the marks. I don't know if anyone kept them after the results were finalized.

Hi,
Actually the posting of the actual scores at nats is not the norm. Anyone remember when they were posted?

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I was surprised to not see the actual marks, such as was done last year (and looking at my marks in last year's Silver I event, I could see from the scores that it was my presentation that won me the event). But I guess that's up to the ref to decide. It was my understanding that USFS competitions MUST use a marking system and that judges cannot simply watch and rank the skaters by strict ordinals.

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This is the third straight nationals I've participated in and this is the first time that the marks were not posted. In Lake Placid in 2004 and in Kansas last year the marks were posted on the USFS site and hard copies were posted at the event itself. I looked at the 2003 results from Ann Arbor and those scores have also been posted on the USFS site.

Last year I had a couple of judges tell me that I should work more on my presentation. I was hoping to see how my program was received this year and whether or not the judges felt my technical skating was better than my presentation.

At this point, the only way to get them would be for USFS to contact the Accountant have him/her produce another file(s). The software will produce HTM files with either the ordinals or the scores. It is up to the accountant and referee to choose which to post.

And, yes, the judges do have to record both marks. And, both marks are entered into the software. That is how ties are broken and the TOMs are calculated when necessary.

Rob

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Judging under 6.0 is always done by giving two marks, and then ordinals are derived from those marks. It would be impossible to simply take notes and then place skaters after the fact.

I am 99% positive you will not be able to see your marks if the chief ref decided they wouldn't be posted. Judges are informed ahead of time if marks will be posted, and if the chief ref said they would not be, that means the judges don't expect them to be public. Also, when marks are going to be posted, the ref of each event must take a median mark after the first skater, and I did not see them doing that throughout the competition.

Remember too that marks really mean nothing. They are placeholders, and that is all.

Is ANs using COP next year? I remember hearing this but I'm not sure where.

I recall getting my Tech/Art marks last year for both my open event and champ. They are on last years site for the 2005 AN on the USFSA site.

NJS for Gold and Master's next year is the proposal for GC in May.

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And if this passes (likely), then 2toe, 2sal, and 2loop will be the only doubles allowed in gold level. (This matches what ISU is doing in this year's O'dorf competition.)

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Now that would not be cool. I'm working on the 2flip now!

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I knew they were posted at a couple of the AN's and it was strange to see them, but I didn't remember where.
Thanks

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Oh yeah!! I forgot about the median mark. I didn't realize at the time that they weren't making the ubiquitous "median mark" speech during the events this time around.


That's very true. However, I do like to see how the first mark compares to the second mark for my skate. I think it gives me some indication as to whether or not the judges liked the program itself, regardless of the technical elements. I've been trying to pay attention to that more this year and it would have been nice to have some feedback on that, however small. Although it would have been nice to have, I'll live if I don't get the marks.

Thanks daisies.

Take care,

Frank

Hey, no prob, Frank! Use caution when interpreting your marks, however. Sometimes as an event goes on, judges can "box themselves in" -- meaning their scores are too tight for them to fit someone in between. When that happens, we need to be creative with our marks, and a lot of times one mark will be way higher or lower than the other -- regardless of whether we thought the program components were better or worse than the elements. It's the two marks added together -- not the two marks separately -- that matter in the long run to us judges and in the results overall. It doesn't even matter if you skate early in the event -- getting boxed in can happen at any time! And even if you're the first skater and you give a mark, when the ref takes the median mark the judge has the option of changing his/her mark to that median mark. So the marks you see may not even be what the judge originally intended to give you. Again, it's only placeholder!

Seriously? So they weren't judging this AN using standard procedures for a national event?

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It's a standard procedure for when marks are posted, not necessarily a standard procedure for a national event. Again, it's the chief ref's call.

Don't forget it takes time to make a median mark, most likely this is why it was not used, just a thought.

Steven

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Hmmm -- I've skated in four championship events (three sectionals and one nationals) and they always established a median mark.

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Me too. But what I have noticed in a lot of competitions I have judged lately is that they are forgoing the median mark and the posting of scores. Might have to do with the phase-in of IJS, I don't know. But I sit there with my clipboard and wait for the ref to take my mark, and he/she never gets up!

The point is, just because they've done it in the past it does not mean it's a requirement. With them being short on judges this year, they probably just didn't want to use up the time. Just speculation.

New changes to well balanced program requirements are up for vote at GC as a separate issue from IJS. 2 loop is listed as the new highest jump for Gold. Doesn't mean you can't work on the 2 flip, just can't compete with it. FWIW, I've landed a handful of them already (<20) and am planning the program changes between years based on the new requirements since those look like they're going to pass. What will inside axel do if he decides to stay in Gold next year?

Comply with the rules I suppose? Although I can't figure the rationale behind a rule change weakening the content for a Championship level event.

Kelton

It's intended to get it in line with O'dorf's requirements since that's the limit there.

Ah, so we're qualifying for Oberstdorf now, got it.

Kelton

I believe the point had been made (by the ISU Adult Skating Working Group Members, whose rationale has then been adopted by the USFS Adult Skating Committee) that while 2loop is on the novice test, 2flip and 2lutz are on the junior and senior level, respectively. Assumably, if one is working on those jumps, one would by this point in a skating career have also developed the skating skills and spins to compete at the master's level. After all, the 2lutz and 2flip were the top jumps executed in the past 2 years in championship masters. (But yes, occasionally, one will see a 2axel and a triple attempt).

Perhaps, just perhaps (?), this is the adult committee and judges' way of communicating that at the gold level, they would rather see skaters improving their edges, presentation, and spins before adding 2flip, 2lutz, and 2axel.

At any rate, I will never be landing any of these jumps! LOL!

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The rationale is that IJS is a point-based system, so it would be unfair for the content to vary too widely at that level.