I have a dumb question: if 7' rockers are so much easier, then why does anyone skate on an 8'? Is the trade-off between spinning and edge security?

Comets are the "recommended" blade here. Now that I know better (and have asked just about all the skaters at my rink) almost everyone skates in them and every coach recommends them regardless ... My coach said they are better for jump landing stability.

Unfortunately, my blades had already been bought and paid for (and they must be shipped by the slooow boat as it's been 3 weeks) so unless someone wants to buy a set of 10" Coronation Comets for $200.....I'm stuck with them for a while. However, this info will help me in ordering blades for my daughter, as I was contemplating Aces or Pattern 99. She is a much better skater than I am and has started working on a double salchow. I think she will do well with that kind of blade. Her boots have been special ordered (weird feet).

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

7' Rocker gives you a bigger sweet spot to spin, 8' rocker has more blade to ice contact and therefore a better glide out on jumps and more speed for less work.

There are advantages to skating on an 8 ft rocker, namely, they are much faster blades. People like/need flatter blades for different reasons...personally, my jumps can get a little swingy at times and on a 7 ft rocker they were a little out of control. Obviously I've progressed heaps since I last wore a 7 ft rocker and have learned that I just wasn't checking my jumps enough, but switching to an 8 ft really helped me get my jumps more secure and my entries less swingy, and really *feel* that need to check my jumps more. I was working on doubles when I switched though, my singles were nice and clean and checked. It's also easier (for me) to do footwork sequences as the edges grab better and feel like they are more defined.

I don't think someone still working out 3-turns or single jumps would notice much improvement by having an 8ft rocker though, because those are simple enough moves that you should have no problems doing them in 7 ft rockers, and even if there were a slight advantage to a flatter blade for some things, it wouldn't be worth it to make it that much harder on yourself to learn spins and at the basic level, it is really important to fix all technique issues before resorting to upgrading blades to fix it for you. If you do that so soon, by the time you *are* doing doubles, you'll have nowhere to go! It does seem wrong that you would be planning on using the same blade to learn one foot spins and single jumps as you would for death drops and triple axels, no? And yet people who do land triple axels do use Gold Seals, mainly. I think the equipment should progress with the technique, not the other way around.

Either way back to the 7ft vs 8ft and why anyone would bother with 8 ft...I think the main reason is really speed. And my whole point is that when you're working on single jumps and one foot spins, you don't need THAT much extra speed that you should place this benefit above getting a blade that's easier to spin on and do basic edges on and use the toepick on (because the Gold Seal and Pattern 99 toepicks ARE a pain to get used to, and they're both drastically different) the way 7 ft are. Once you are a proficient spinner and have solid single/double jumps, switching to an 8 ft rocker will not hold any downsides, and that's the idea...when you're ready for it, the switch will not hold you back, if you do it too soon, I think it'll only hinder you. I didn't lose any spins when switching to an 8ft rocker, but it probably would've taken me a lot longer to learn them had I not had really secure spins before making the switch. You can feel that it's harder to hook and center spins...but if you know how to spin well already, it will not bother you or affect you at all. The only people that would suffer from an 8 ft rocker are people who aren't yet comfortable with the basics of freestyle.

Just my very subjective thoughts on this. Obviously, no matter what, to each their own. I just think that skating (at any age) is hard enough, there is no reason to make it harder just for the glory of having advanced blades, or even just for the false belief that more advanced = better for everybody. More advanced = better for more advanced skaters. It makes sense when you think about it. There's nothing beyond the Gold Seal. It's as good as it gets. So, get the blade when you think that's true of your skating, too.

Well, your coach is actually right- they are better for jump landing stability. But as I said in my super long winded post above, if she's reccommending them to people learning single jumps because of this, it's a little pointless as you shouldn't have any stability problems landing singles anyways, if you do, the technique needs to be fixed ASAP...you know? And either way I don't think it's a big enough advantage to compromise ease of spinning, especially if you have students who are just in the middle of learning spins. But as I also said above to each their own and hey it sounds like they haven't worked out too badly for you so more power to you! I could not imagine skating on anything flatter than what I have (which is 8ft) so you are basically my hero. And by working on spins in this blade, you're really going to have it easy if you ever switch to an 8ft or 7ft, so there are plenty of upsides, too.

Good luck on your daughter's skates!

Stardust:
Thanks for the info. I did talk to a coach last nigh (not mine) about blades. His are Aces and he has the most awesome spins. He was astonished that I'm in Comets (and able to spin-doh). He also recommended Aces. Well, I told him my new shorter Comets have already been ordered and he said to let my daughter have them (ha, ha, ha). If I could, I would!!!

I'm going to talk to the pro-shop and see if I can switch to Aces. Especially since the blades aren't even here yet (still waiting...)

Still thinking Pattern 99 for daughter (this coach agrees-he only coaches here occasionally so he is somewhat removed from the structure and politics).

Ya learn something new everyday!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Thanks for the detailed replies! -- I just had an honest question! No worries, not planning on buying an elite level blade here. I'm still in my Ultima Mirages, happy with them, just was curious about the 8' rocker they have. I do like spinning, though, so maybe a spinnier blade would be better the next time I upgrade.

What's a "new, shorter Comet"?

I ask because I am looking for a blade that is not as short as my dance blades, but not as long as a regular freestyle blade. Might this be the "new, shorter Comet"?

Thanks. I don't mean to co-opt this thread.

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Oh, yeah I guess I should have been more specific to say "my new blades that will fit my smaller boots" which are 10" vs 10.5".......(the blades, I mean)

Have you tried looking at synchro blades? some of them are in-between and might suit you.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Well, there is really no reason that you couldn't cancel your order and switch. I mean, unless you order custom boots, you can always change your mind, even after something has arrived. They can always keep it in their stock and sell it to someone else later, or return the item to the dealer if they do not think they will be able to sell it. So long as you haven't skated on your new blades (and clearly you have not since they aren't even there yet), you should be able to return them, that's just normal customer service in any store. Even if they've arrived, just ask for them to be sent back. You're sticking with the same brand so this should be even less of an issue. Just tell them the truth- that you've gathered more information about different blades and feel that you need to switch in order to progress. No pro-shop should refuse this, if they do, call the dealer directly.

Good luck!!

PS: Pattern 99 are great blades, so long as your daughter does not have any problems with toepick slippage on pick jumps. If she does, it's the wrong blade for her as you really have to be able to reach far back to get that top toe pick under you. But if she doesn't, you're golden!

Time for a really dumb question. I think I now sort of know the benefits of 7' versus 8' (thanks, guys! ), so wonder if it's possible if a good sharpener could reduce the rocker slightly (from say 8' to 7.5' - I already worked out that you couldn't go from 8.5' to 7' !!)? Also, am I right in assuming that it is possible to increase the rocker, and that this happens naturally with repeated sharpenings once the "point of no return" has been reached?

Yes, sometimes this happens (sometimes unintentionally). My sharpener also asks if you need to have the rocker "checked". But you need to have your original blade tracing for that. He lines up the blade and the tracing and sees how far "off" the blade is. He can adjust it back closer to the original, but not by much.
You have to be careful changing one blade's rocker to a different setting, as that also changes how much "sharpening metal" there is left on the blade. Change it too much and you could be left with less life in the blade.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

You don't necessarily need the original tracing- a lot of figure skating pro shops have plastic "rulers" from each blade manufacturer with the rocker curvature and they can measure that to your blade. It's much more fool-proof than a tracing, anyhow. But I wouldn't toy around with trying to adjust a rocker...the odds of it turning out right are pretty small. If you want a different rocker, get a different blade. I know this is sort of "duh" statement, but seriously- don't risk butchering your blades and confusing your body without even really knowing what rocker you'll end up with. Too risky.

[QUOTE=stardust skies]
Either way back to the 7ft vs 8ft and why anyone would bother with 8 ft...I think the main reason is really speed. And my whole point is that when you're working on single jumps and one foot spins, you don't need THAT much extra speed that you should place this benefit above getting a blade that's easier to spin on and do basic edges on and use the toepick on (because the Gold Seal and Pattern 99 toepicks ARE a pain to get used to, and they're both drastically different) the way 7 ft are. Once you are a proficient spinner and have solid single/double jumps, switching to an 8 ft rocker will not hold any downsides, and that's the idea...when you're ready for it, the switch will not hold you back, if you do it too soon, I think it'll only hinder you. I didn't lose any spins when switching to an 8ft rocker, but it probably would've taken me a lot longer to learn them had I not had really secure spins before making the switch. You can feel that it's harder to hook and center spins...but if you know how to spin well already, it will not bother you or affect you at all. The only people that would suffer from an 8 ft rocker are people who aren't yet comfortable with the basics of freestyle. [QUOTE]
I totally agree. I am more of a jumper than a spinner and I don't have problems with speed, so I do much better on blades with a 7' rocker. They make spins much easier!

Okay, here is the million dollar dilemma: when I went to the pro-shop (and found out my Comets were in) and asked about switching to Aces (no big deal), my other coach was saying how much a step down they will be for me and how tiny the toe-pick was compared to the Comet and I would regret it.....meanwhile, back at the ranch (pro-shop), figure-skating person behind desk asks why not Pattern 99's .

Okay, I'm buggin' now.

I'm to the point of saying "f" it and give me the Comets so I can get back on the road (gotta break the boots in before the show; hey, didn't I do this last year?)

At least daughter will get the Pattern 99's. But I'm not buying them from my pro-shop . I don't want to get cross-examined (again).

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Unless you are talking about FOUR ACES, this is not true about the Ace toepick being any smaller than yours- the Ace's is actually slightly bigger (more on that later).

Coronation Aces are the all-around freestyle blades for learning singles and doubles and most spins. They are one step down from Pattern 99/Phantoms, and Pattern 99 is way too much blade for you IMHO. They're good once you already have axel and some doubles- but that toepick is HUGEEEEE and was the bane of my existence for two years. You have be very precise with your picking to hit that top toe pick (I also always used to trip over it because it protuded so much), and the pick is straight-cut (like yours), which makes for very little grip on the ice when jumping. It's also a much shorter blade (in height, from bottom of boot to the ice) and will be harder to spin on, and finally, it's an 8 ft rocker, which really isn't much better than what you have in regards to ease of use.

The Coronation Aces are the same level as the MK Professionals, which I personally learned most of my doubles on. They are great blades. I only said stick to Aces because you are already in John Wilson with the Comets and I do not know if you wanna switch brands or if the pro shop would let you return John Wilson blades for MK ones, but either brand and model is really fine. Both blades are equally good and should serve you through at LEAST double loop.

In the end, aside for the toepick (which I compared in pics in the next paragraph), the only real difference between both of these blades and your Coronation Comets is the size of the radius, the disadvantage of yours having already been talked about ad-nauseum above. No offense, but it sounds like your coach is really biased/doesn't really know what they are talking about, and like the dude at the pro shop is just trying to make money off your back like they always do by trying to sell you something WAYYYYYY more expensive and advanced than you actually want/need.

Here are some comparisons for ya regarding the toepick issue:

Coronation Ace: http://riedellskates.com/blades/jw-coronace.html
Coronation Comet: http://riedellskates.com/blades/jw-coroncomet.html

As you can see, the Ace has a larger toepick, and also what I consider to be a better toepick, especially for single/double jumps learners, as it's crosscut so that you get better grab on jumps. The Comet has straight cut teeth, which makes it harder to grab the ice when jumping off the toepick. Also, from the description, it seems very clear that the makers consider the Comet to actually be a step down from the Ace.

But make sure you ask for CORONATION Ace, and not Four Aces, which while being a step up from the Comet because it has a 7 ft rocker, has the same toepick as the Comet (straight cut), and doesn't benefit from the enhanced crosscut toepick of the Coronation Ace. Here's a description of the Four Aces: http://riedellskates.com/blades/jw-fouraces.html

For further reference, here's the MK Pro blade: http://riedellskates.com/blades/mk-professional.html

and the Pattern 99 blade (which is the only blade not even in the "freestyle" section, but "advanced freestyle section", to show you how far off this dude really is from the right suggestion): http://riedellskates.com/blades/jw-pattern99.html.

Most of the time, it's better to leave decisions like these to your coach, but sometimes, it's better to just educate yourself to death on a topic and then make your own choices. I think this is one of such cases. I really reccommend you consider the Coronation Ace or MK Professional as a replacement blade, and not to let yourself be pushed by your coach or pro shop guy, or your own impatience with this ordeal. If you feel the Comet is best for you, so be it, but make sure it's your own decision, not some form of conformity on your part to make anyone else happy or get it over with faster.

Good luck!

Once again, I totally agree with Stardust Skies. I would definitely recommend MK Professionals, and if Coronation Aces are similar, they should be an excellent blade for you. Sure, they'll take a little getting used to, but any new blade does, even when you buy the same blade you just had.

Oh, I meant to add, it is SURPRISING how few coaches are up-to-date on the technical specifications of different boots and blades. I would go as far as to say "shocking." Unlike most of their students, we are ADULTS and therefore just as capable of researching the specs on blades and making a good, educated decision as to what would be a good choice. I find myself actually telling my coaches about this stuff.

Most coaches were skaters as kids and have been using the same blade models for a very long time. Same with boots. They really don't know a lot about the equipment they don't use themselves.

BTW, Wilson and MK are now one and the same, although they have maintained their separate brand names. I don't recall which company bought out the other.

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I'm going to ask my private coach for her opinion, then I will make my decision. I'll let you guys know!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Wilson bought out MK, I believe.

Yes, I third, or is it fourth, the recommendation for Coronation Ace - they're a wonderful blade! I have since upgraded to John Watson Dance, which is very nearly too much blade for me, but the Husband is happy with Coronation Dance, which is the dance version of the Coronation Ace.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I also agree that the Coronation Ace would be a better blade for you.

Pattern 99? What are they THINKING????

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

I had the same discussion with some coaches at the rink yesterday. We have an excellent local skate guy, and the coaches PREFER to leave most boot and some blade decisions up to him. Many boots have been redesigned in the past few years, and that's a lot to keep up to date with for a coach. Most of them know more about blades, but still prefer to have the skate tech make the decisions. Yes, in an ideal world, a coach would know the key feature of every boot and blade on the market, but I'd rather my coach spend the time being up to date on the actual skating side of the sport and leave the equipment to the experts (this logic only works if you know you have a good skate tech).

One common feature I've found in the good skate fitters is that they rarely, if ever, try to sell you more than you need. I asked my skate guy if he thought my boots needed to be replaced, he looked at them carefully, and told me they had at least a few more months of life in them. These boots are 6 years old and look it; if he'd said he thought they were going, I would have bought a new pair. Same deal with blades - I was buying new ones, and asked what kind he suggested. I'm working on Junior moves, getting my Axel consistent, and some doubles. He could have easily said to upgrade based on my level, but instead said if I was happy with the MK Professionals, there was no reason to upgrade. I guess the logic is that he KNOWS he's good - he'll get my money eventually.

We do not have a boot fitter at my rink, the people in the pro shop (except for one person who does figure skate) are not knowledgeable about anything skate-related.

The one coach who recommends that I stay in comets used to do figures. This blade is one she recommends to everyone, regardless of their wants, desires, skills, etc. I asked her for a recommendation for my husband, who only wants to ice dance---can you guess what blade she recommended?

Same thing with boots, the only brands she recommends are Jacksons and Gams. Every other boot on the planet "they have problems" Yeah, so do Jacksons and Gams......

My private coach, I'm sure, doesn't really care, as long as my skating continues to improve. She was concerned that I didn't have a flex bend in the leather yet (hey, it's only been a year, and these are Jackson Competitors!) and she is concerned that they are too big, which is causing problems.

Doesn't the Mirage blade have an 8' rocker? I don't remember her cautioning me when I went from them to the gigantic toepick on the Comets. All she said was my speed will improve. That was never my concern. Spinning (or lack of ) was. Jumping was...

Ok, I'll shut up now. I'm calling the pro-shop and telling them Aces are on.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

It's not a question of whether you deserve the blade; it's whether you need the blade. You don't. I was on Cornation Comets until I had at least half of my doubles. The GoldSeals or Pattern99s are simply going to actually hamper your skating, since it's really more blade than you need. Add that to the fact that they're both insanely expensive, and I'd suggest waitig (why spend more money than you have to!). And actually, most skaters are moving away from GoldSeals since their prices have gone up significantly compared to Pattern99s and they're roughly comparable blades (it's really a matter of personal preference). Most of the people (like myself) who are skating on them are skating on them because that's what we're used to, not because they're 100-200 dollars better than Pattern99s.