Good to know I have another option for skating if my jumping days goes away! (Thank you for reporting, SK8RX!)

I am very happy that it came out the way it did. I especially am happy that they've put back one extra spin as an option, since I am more of a spinner than a jumper... doesn't mean I can lax on the jumps though.

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Thank you SK8RX for letting us know how the Bronze WB reqs and Ch. Silver/ Bronze issues turned out.

For those who were there, what do you feel were the major changes, if any, affecting standard-track skating? (That is, the non-adult skating proposals.)

__________________
Whatever!

Hm, I can partly answer my own question... on the USFS website, it reports that the draw for the long program skating order will be a little more tightly coupled with the order of finish from the short program. And, there's a new $10 admin fee for all regional and sectional events, including adult sectionals.

Any other interesting news from GC?

__________________
Whatever!

That decision was made strictly for NBC - part of the TV deal to make it easier to broadcast. WHen ABC/ESPN declined to renew their contract, it looked like we would not get ANY skating on TV in the US!

j

Re 301: I'm wondering how it is possible to have 3 spin elements and 4 jump elements in a 1'40" program, especially if three of the jumps are combos or sequences and one or more of the spins are combos, and coverage of ice is also expected? Also, what does this do to international rules? Do they stay at two spins?

I did not favor the passage of 301.

I technically have 6 jump elements (including 2 3-jump combos/sequences and one two jump combo) and 3 spins in my 1:40 pre-bronze program, as well as a 1/2 length step sequence and some other transitions. I don't have any true combination spins or spins with a change of foot in my program yet so the spins take less time but I certainly think it's possible to have a decent program* with 4 jump elements and 3 spins (maybe on of which is a combination spin) and just think that two spins isn't really enough for a program (especially when there are 3 on the test). JMO. Personally I would favor allowing more than 4 jump elements too, with limits on repeats so a skater would be encouraged to demonstrate all of the different takeoffs and have more than one solo jump if they use up the 3 combo "boxes."

*Note that I did not necessarily imply that my program was decent, although I hope to skate it well at my competition coming up in a few weeks.

If you plan on using this for a Bronze program, you'll need to make some changes. Per the WBP rules that went into effect this year (301 only affects spins, not jumps), you can only have 1 3-jump combo - the other combos must be 2-jump. A jump element is defined as a jumping pass, meaning it could be a solo jump or a combo - each jump within a combo is not a separate jump element.

As for limits on repeats, they are already in effect. You may only repeat a jump once, and if repeated it must be done in combination - if the same jumps are done in combo with each other (ex: loop-loop, lutz-loop-loop), then you can't do the jump again in the program. This repeat rule was not used at Sectionals or AN this year b/c of a mistake in the announcement, but it was in effect at all other comps and I assume will be in effect at Sectionals and AN next year.

Joan, I understand what you are saying, but remember, the rule was changed b/c the Bronze test requires 3 spins, so skaters wanting to use their test program to compete can do so. I think the change was a good idea, as it seemed bizarre to require more for a test than would be allowed in a comp. Usually, it's the reverse, with the test requirements being the minimum of what is needed for competition at a particular level. And Bronze skaters are not being required to do 3 spins, just allowed if they choose to do so. So skaters who are better at spins than jumps will be able to make themselves more competitive, and those who prefer to just do 2 spins will be able to.

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Yes, I know of all that but since they aren't limited so much at pre-bronze my coach and I decided to put in as much content as I could within reason (the only jump I do more than twice is the loop, because I had 2 in combo and we decided I should demonstrate it solo since it was within the rules). My pet peeve is when skaters do 6 or 7 loop jumps in a program, sometimes even doing up to 6 combinations, all involving loops.

I thought that was what happened but was too lazy to look it up (not to mention the fact that those rules are screwed up in the rulebook anyway), so thanks. I still think it should be 5 jump elements personally, since I'd like to see more than one solo jump. Also I'd also be in favor of either requiring an axel-type jump (which would obviously have to be a waltz jump at the bronze level) and giving the waltz jump a value, or having the waltz jump not count as a jump element at all so skaters could do it without using a jump "box." I'd prefer to see all the takeoffs but it's sort of a waste to do a waltz jump under the current rules if you can do enough of the higher level jumps, which it shouldn't be (especially since a waltz jump is one that is likely to be of high quality relative to the others).

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

There is absolutely no room in my program to add another spin and I'm already pushing it right to the end of my music with what is already there!

__________________
I've got mad salchow disease!

5 jump passes is WAY too much in a 1:40 program to actually have anything beyond skate, skate, jump, spin, skate, skate,... 6 jump passes barely fit in a Gold length program with 3 spins and a F/W or spiral sequence while having good ice coverage and interesting transitions.

Mandatory 5?! I had 5 jump passes in my program last year and 3 spins. It was terrible for ice coverage and gave me almost no time for quality footwork or spirals.

I will begrudgingly do 4 jumps/3 spins if it passes since I want to remain competitive, but please, do you want elements or a well-balanced program? Even the senior skaters only do 4 jumps in their short.

__________________
Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

I disagree. I see skaters do programs of about that length with 5 or more jump elements and 3 spins that demonstrate nice transitions and skating ability all the time. Granted I see more pre-preliminary and preliminary skaters than adults, but it's certainly not impossible. It is true that sometimes (but not always) the adults tend to be slower than the kids and not have as much ice coverage but I just don't think the difference between 4 jumping passes and having one more solo jump would make a big difference in the overall program or quality of skating. (I wouldn't support more jump elements at the higher levels because they already get plenty of opportunities to demonstrate a variety of jumps and since the jumps are much more difficult they tend to take much longer to set up and sometimes do take away from the program-- but I haven't ever found that to be the case at the low levels). Anyway, it's just my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.

ETA: I was responding to techskater and hadn't seen your post before I posted, Mel. Yes I would like to see a well-balanced program but part of that is having a variety of jump takeoffs and a balance of combinations and solo jumps. Another jump might mean taking out a transition but I would hope the skater and coach could find a way to work at least a few transitions that really show of your strengths anyway. I could conceivably change my mind after seeing more adult programs. That was just my initial opinion as a skater since I know I like being able to demonstrate all the jumps I can do and would feel slightly restricted by only being allowed 4 jump elements (especially since I certainly want to include at least one waltz jump and think there should be one in a bronze program but with only 4 elements it would feel like throwing points away when thinking in IJS mode).

*shrug* Dunno... I got 3 spins in 1:40 and did my Bronze Test Program for Pre-Bronze FS comp. I also got 4 jump passes in there too... AND footwork to boot!!!

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

In my bronze program, I think I had 1 combo, 2 single jumps, 1 combo spin and 1 solo, and lots of edges. What I don't like about the current rules is that there is no room for skating.

__________________
Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

If you want 5 jump passes and three spins move to Silver. Why should a Bronze and Silver program have the same maximums?

I agree. At the USFS adult gold level, we have about 2 minutes 30 seconds plus or minus ten seconds. That's just ten seconds less than the time limit for a senior short program assuming a gold skater uses the full 2:40 allotted to them. However, in a senior short program you must have three jumping passes, three spins and two step sequences or a step and a spiral sequence. At USFS gold level freestyle, with ten seconds less time, we're trying to cram in six jump elements (or jumping passes), the same number of spins and a step sequence or spiral sequence. It really is a challenge to actually demonstrate skating ability when you're trying to cram in as much technical content as you can under such a tight time-frame. I suppose that there's always the option to elect to do fewer technical elements so that you can actually skate but that's risky in a freestyle event. At least technical elements have a set value and you can do the math and figure out your program's technical base value. It's not always easy to predict how your program will score on the PCS scores. So we have a conundrum. Cram in as much technical content and sacrifice displaying the quality of your basic skating to its fullest or pull out technical elements and really ride your edges and possibly lose what could be valuable points on jumps and spins??

Just wanted to add the adult program times are MAX times, not +- times. So, adult gold, for example, is max 2:40 not 2:30 +- 10 seconds.

__________________
August 22, back on the ice!

On the other hand, decent step and spiral sequences usually take 20-30 seconds each (depending on the level), so only having to do one or the other gives you an additional 20-30 seconds. Subtract the 10 seconds difference between 2:50 and 2:40 and we Adult Gold skaters still have 10-20 more seconds to fit stuff in. When you factor in the difference in how long our spins last compared to the Senior level skaters, we've got another 5-10 seconds to work with. Ture, fitting in 6 jump passes while still doing some skating in-between requires some strategizing on the choreography/logistics, but I actually think it's kind of a fun challenge.

__________________
"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Remember, it's a *maximum* of three spins. That means you can still do two and not get penalized. But those who already have three in their program because they used the same program for their test now won't have to rechoreograph. It's pretty much one size fits all now!

Very true as well. One just has to get creative. I plan on keeping my program another year in large part because, though I certainly do love my program, I think there is still a way to space my elements out a bit better and do more in between skating in addition to performing the elements I've chosen. I also would like to raise the level of my basic skating and then give this program another shot. It would be easier to fit in all the elements I'd like if my stroking were more efficient. You're right, Lauren. It isn't impossible but certainly it is a challenge.

Ummm... last I've check, there are only 4 jump passes allowed at the Bronze level, as opposed to Silver's 5 jump passes.

But playing Devil's Advocate here... if the reasoning for having Bronze do only 2 spins in their WBP program is a matter of timing, then they should also change the TEST requirement for Bronze FS so there would only be 2 spin on the test. As it is now, once I was done with my Bronze FS test program, I had to totally ditched it for a TOTALLY BRAND NEW PROGRAM!!!! (Which, BTW, is STILL not done yet!!! ) This new change to the rules is to specifically address this issue so the Pre-Bronze FS skaters who are testing Bronze FS soon (like our Terri C here) won't have to totally rip apart their FS program to follow the WBP requirements - they just change spins and jumps!!!

How about this as a compromise: Instead of tweaking the number of spin passes allowed, how about proposing for next year that a certain number of combo spins be allowed at the Bronze level and at least one must be a solo spin. That should cut a little bit of time out for more "skating!"

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I like this idea

Well I'm not thrilled to see 3 spins back in bronze, as I'm not a huge spin fan. I could do 2, but I feel that makes me less than competitive.

I'm probably going to Adult Nats as a bronze skater next year, so I have to think about this, though I have been skating up.

At least 4 jumping passes leaves more time to cram those spins in.

I would like to see Adult Bronze program time inch up to 1:50. My biggest reason for skating up this year to silver was program time. 1:40 feels very rushed to me.

I don't know if it's a good ideal to just do two jumps... I'm a spinner myself and prefer the compromise... It's the "figure skating" not "figure jumping..." thing for me.

Besides that, and this is purely from a selfish standpoint...jumps puts STRESS on my lower back and joints.... if the skaters are rewarded based on jumps a lot more than on spins and footwork, I'd rather take up ice dancing then and spare my lower back.

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Yeah, someone here wanted 5 jump passes at Bronze and my first comment was "where would the transitions and skating be" and my second reponse was move up to Silver.