I think if you are planning on coaching you really need to consider why you want to coach. I love to skate and compete. I love to coach. I talk about my students all the time in everyday conversation.

It's challenging to be an adult skater. I'm working on my Novice Moves, but I haven't taken my Adult Gold Moves. Rationally, people have said to me, "You should take your Gold test because you passed Intermediate Moves." Maybe I would and maybe I wouldn't. However, I'm focussed on my Novice Moves and I practice them a lot. I went back and practiced the moves on the Gold test and they were shaky. It doesn't mean that my skills are good. (I passed my Intermediate test the first time I took it. ) However, it means as an adult, I have a one-track mind focussing on one goal at a time.

I teach tots up to ISI freestyle 4/5. Last night I was teaching a freestyle 2 class. I have one adult student who is happy to do his/her own thing and I add imput when I can. I'm not going to force this individual to do anything that he/she isn't ready to do or isn't willing to do. Yes, it can be frustrating, but you have to accept that all people learn differently. I also have a student in this class that I know from when I volunteered with Special Olympics. Last night she did three revolutions on a one foot spin. It was definitely not perfect, but my gosh, what an accomplishment. I congratulated the student and exchanged high fives. This spin was not perfect, but it was an accomplishment.

I agree that basic skills should be strong, however, I teach my tots waltz jumps or 2 foot spins and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. It's a reward system. We'll work on cossovers with good edges and then at the end of the lesson, one trick. All my private lessons, no matter what level they are start out with stroking, crossovers, etc.

Another helpful hint if you do decide to coach...remember how it feels to learn something. I skated from the time I was 3 until 11. Then I didn't skate again until I was 21. I have images in my mind of a few things. The spiral was tough because I had horrible skates. The inside axel...I fell a lot. The spread eagle...my coach told me that I needed to learn it or skate with the babies. However, I don't remember learning a 3-turn or a loop jump, or much. I have tried to teach myself to jump and spin left handed (with varying degrees of success-the flip is really scary...)

I hope that helps and ask your coaches if you can sit in or observe them as they teach.

Happy Skating!

Wow! None of the kids at my rink think the adults are foolish or make fun of us adults. In fact, I can't get on the ice with them without three coming over to show me what they're learning or asking for help with their spirals (the only thing I can do really well).

Here's my deal: I'm never going to be a jumper. I might not be a great spinner. But I love practicing edge exercises and stroking. I may do lousy 3 turns, but I have a decent mohawk and skate with more fluidity than I really should. I nearly always have good alignment and skate with extension in everything I do. I don't try to enumerate my skills, because I don't really HAVE any. But I have fun each and every time I get on the ice. I am a teriffic cheerleader (ask Mel!) and am thrilled for every skill anyone learns. I take lessons because I enjoy the challenge and the people with whom I skate. I an guarantee that I do not have the best skating skills on my synchro team, but I remember every beat of choreography the first time we do something and I'm a human metronome when it comes to doing run-throughs without music or off-ice.

I take a power skating class weekly and a private lesson every other week. I'm working on a one-foot spin and a waltz jump and three turns in every direction/edge.

What do I want from my coach? Someone who teaches me the CORRECT way to do something from the very beginning. I don't just want to do it, I want to do it RIGHT.

And, yes, I have had 15 years of ballet and the discipline that goes with it. I simply don't want to do something if I haven't learned it the correct way. I've always been that way -- at least since I can remember. Now, the fact of the matter is, one must practice a skill to get it down, so you will see me out there attempting under-rotated 3 turns and waltz jumps that barely leave the ice. But I can't possibly do them well without practice, can I?

skatergirlva, you're missing my point. I'm not saying it isn't good or wise to teach jumps and spins to adults who are willing to learn. I'm saying that I find it confusing and odd that I've seen many adults trying to do things that don't follow natural progression. Why is it acceptable to work on combination jumps and spins when the single jumps and spins are weak, technically incorrect and need lots of refinement themselves? Yet, you go to comps and see this stuff with adults all the time. It isn't just my rink. I go to comps to support people I know and skate with, adults included and it is painful to watch a person trying something such as a camel-sitspin when they can't do those elements well individually. What is the point? Why are coaches incouraging this? What is the value of being able to say you can do a waltz-loop combo and compete with those in a program if your waltz jump is 6 inches off the ice and you can't fully rotate the loop? Oh brother, I guess I'm too much of a perfectionist and some people just don't understand where I'm coming from.

Please though-next competition you participate in or observe, ask yourselves what you think about what you see people trying to do and if its good for adult skating and then get back with me.

I don't think it's a fact that coaches encourage this. My guess (at least as good as yours, since I'm a coach, a skater and the mother of skaters) is that many people want to push their limits and that many want to do what is fun and not do what is boring.

I saw this with my younger daughter who started skating at 10 and had her axel in a year. I do mean that she landed the axel, not cheated, most of the time. Meanwhile, she barely squeeked past pre-prelim moves at year 2. This was a child who wanted to jump and spin and could not be restrained. When her coaches saw her attempting the axel on her own, they decided to work with her on it as a safer option than not. My daughter would have quit in that first year if she had not been allowed to work on jumps and spins as much as she wanted. We all knew she was not going to the Olympics, the point of her skating was for her to enjoy it! Her skating did finally catch up to her jumps and spins.

As a coach you have to have some insight into why your students want to skate. If you deprive them of their primary joy in skating, they will either leave you or quit skating.

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Several thoughts on this one: (1) Either your tolerance for "bad" is extremely low, or you're not going to the same competitons I'm going to. There is a definite "look" to adult skaters. Are you maybe confusing *that* with what you're seeing as bad skating? (2) Did you ever answer the question about when you started skating? Just from your postings, it seems like you either have a problem with adult skaters or just don't really understand what it's all about. We don't just mindlessly do what Coach tells us. We're very inidividualistic about our skating -- you can't generalize about us except to say that our brains and bodies are different from the kids.

This is where you need to take a step back, get a deep breath, and get over it.
Indeed you are. Perfectionism is good when you're coaching skaters with perfectionist tendancies. But you won't always get those students. Then what are you going to do?
Just like you don't understand where they're coming from Call it a draw and vow never to teach those students.

I don't need to go to another competition. I've been competing for years. I still want to know, what the **** are you watching? I've been in local club comps, non-qualifying adult comps (like Peach Classic, New Years Adult Invitational, etc.), and Adult Nationals. There will always be skaters/coaches who are self-delusional (we've got one of those in my club) or who put too-difficult elements in their programs, but it's not the epidemic you describe. I think you've got some crummy adult skaters in your area, and it's just driving you crazy. And in my experience, adult skaters are treated with respect and admiration for having the guts to something most people wouldn't try. Your world is sad: only do things you can do well; only do things that will keep some 7 year old from making fun of you. I like my world better.

This is a fabulous post. I could not agree more.

Well, whether people agree with you or disagree with you, this has certainly become a popular post! I think you should sell ad space!

I agree with a lot of what has been said here.

I think the original post was about the difference between talking the talk and walking the walk. For instance, Susie Skater has a cheated axel and an inconsistent double sal. But when she talks about her skating, she says she "has" her axel and double sal. I think most of that comes from the inherently competitive nature of the sport. Talking a little bigger to intimidate the competition, although that's not usually the immediate goal or desire. Some people do it out of a little bit of delusion to make themselves feel better. It's depressing telling everyone how much you suck all the time. I think sometimes it's ok to be less than realistic.

Although I take my skating very seriously, I realize that there are people who don't take their own skating as seriously. I liken it to my experiences playing piano. I took private lessons for 7 years. I came out of it not being able to play very well, because by the time I was in high school I didn't want to do technique songs and boring exercises anymore. I bought some Tori Amos sheet music books and asked my teacher to help me work on those instead. Since I hadn't learned the techniques very well, my playing wasn't very good. But I liked it and it made me happy. It was continued income for her, and I got to work on what I wanted. Some people approach skating that way. So what? As long as they're not a danger to themselves or others, let them eat cake. Different skaters have different goals.

I know coaches whose skaters have flutzes, wrapped jumps, cheated jumps, bad technique. They attempt every jump they can in programs without killing themselves. And I know coaches who wouldn't dare put in an inconsistent jump in a program, who hold skaters back until they're overprepared for tests, who send their skaters to ballet lessons and choreographers and custom dressmakers to polish them within an inch of their life. Different strokes for different folks. I wish every skater valued deep smooth edges, strong fast spins, high and clean jumps. Not every skater is Ryan Jahnke.

You should either choose to live happily and take the high road in the melting pot of personalities that is this world and skating, or you can become bitter and obsessed with it. Your choice.

Gregyoshi--I know people who have passed their gold dances (and with very few retries) who would get physically sick before each test. Not because they were doing things out of sequence or because they had an unrealistic view of their skating, but because of how their body reacts to stress. Sometimes people cry before getting their results because of relief or perhaps because of their opinion of how they skated at that time--perhaps they felt they were off *that day* for *that skate* or disappointment in a certain element.

I don't think this has been mentioned yet (sorry if it has--I've been reading this thread at different times)--but when/if you do take on students, it might be good for you to have a discussion up front with each student about goals, work process, etcetera, so that each of you has an idea where the other is coming from. As others have mentioned, some skaters will agree and thrive under your perspective/process, whereas others may have a different style or focus. This kind of discusssion would foster a more productive relationship between you and the student and could potentially save time (and money, for the skater) if you don't see eye to eye.

I feel badly for you that you skate in an area where adults are mocked. Although every rink and every skating club can have its drama from time to time, the kids and teenagers I know are very supportive of the adults (and their peers), don't mock the adults, and practice very good ice etiquette (with the exception of a few young ones who are total space cadets). We are mutually interested in each other's progress and accomplishments in skating, working hard, and enjoying ourselves.

Ah, this is the problem, then. Have you never done anything just for fun, without feeling a need to be perfect at it? How about playing a game of pick-up baseball or basketball on the playground at school? How about writing a poem, or painting a picture? It would be a sad, sad world if no one could do anything without having to make a career of it.

What was your goal in taking ballet? Was it just something to do with your free time, or were you intending to be a Dancer? I've met a few people for whom dance isn't art ot sport--it's life. . . and these folks do seem to have a hard time understanding how anyone else can separate it--how it can possibly be just a small part of a life instead of a whole life in and of itself.

Goals are a huge part of how seriously someone takes something. I take my skating a lot more seriously than I took my college ballet class, but then my goals were completely different. I did intend to eventually compete in adult skating events. I never had any illusions about being any kind of dancer. I was never going to audition for a company, I was never even going to dance in a recital. Sure, I wanted to get the steps and movements right--but a 'good' pirouette on me means getting around without falling down, and without dropping my shoulders to China. Since I didn't have huge goals for ballet in the first place, that was enough. I was never going to take it far enough for my crappy spotting to mean anything. Don't get me wrong--I loved my ballet class. But it was strictly for fun and stretching my horizons a bit. I was always more strict with myself with skating, because I wanted to take it further, and look as sharp as possible doing it (which may not be perfect, but it was to the best of my abilities). But for another skater, skating might be their 'ballet class'. As long as they're not hindering my progress (and they're not), I don't give a rip.



As for greg...I'm going to read between the lines a bit. Maybe I'm wrong, but my theory is that since he's said that he's an 'in-between' skater, moving into the adult realm...he's probably still hanging out with the younger skaters, some of which appear to be little punks who wouldn't know maturity if it smacked them upside the head, who think it's funny to make fun of adult skaters. And since greg is soon to become an 'adult skater', he'd rather that the entire set of them 'shape up' and stop skating like crap, because he's worried he's going to get lumped in with them, and it will make him look bad. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to agree with the other posters who've said that that crappy little attitude really isn't all that prevalent. Sure, I've seen a drama queen or two, but on the whole, the kids I've skated with are very supportive. And for the DQs, well, it eventually comes around to bite them in the @ss anyway.

I also said previously that if an adult isn't skating up to standard, but thinks they're still going to compete and win with the sad stuff they've got, well, they'll eventually learn differently. Once you compete against a large enough field, you discover what's up to snuff, and what's not. I certainly do not advocate changing standards to accommodate rotten, poorly executed attempts at elements. Just remember that a toe loop competed at Pre-Bronze level will look vastly different from one competed at Silver. You don't expect the kids skating Intermediate to look like kids in Seniors, do you?

At my rink, there are a couple adult skaters who come in the mornings, and there's me. I used to work at my rink and all the kids know me and have supported me for years. It's a GREAT feeling. And I've never heard anything disparaging said about adult skaters from any of my friends. If the skaters at your rink are mocking adults, why don't you speak up for yourself? Bottom line, we're all skaters, whether it's the 12 year old Junior National Champion, Michelle Kwan, or me. We all skate because we LOVE to skate. I think it's really sad that you don't say anything to these kids, and that it bothers you that much. If you truly enjoy skating, you shouldn't let it bother you. And if some kids don't like adult skaters, so what?? They're not your peers, other adult skaters are. I don't compare myself to my friends who are trying triples.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Because of my unusual work schedule, I can go skating during the week and I usually go to some morning sessions. A lot of the times I am the only adult...I joke that I raise the average age 10 years when I step out onto the ice.

I have never heard one discouraging word or any mocking from any of the kids there. In fact some of them give me encouragement and some pointers as well. I know most of their patterns and try to stay out of the way.

I have the greatest coach in the world. She is patient and explains in detail. She is a profectionist but so am I so there is no problem there. I am working on figures and plan to test next summer at Lake Placid since I am the only skater at my rink, kid or adult, who is doing figures. By the way, figures has really improved my edge quality.

I have no delusions about my skating. I realize I am a 58 year old male with a rebuilt left knee and arthritis in my lower back and on some days it shows. Compared to other adults skaters, I may be on the lower end of the food chain but I am having a lot of fun and I am making progress, albiet slowly. However, compared to a lot of overweight, out of shape friends my age...I am doing great!!

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Keeping School Figures Alive!!

Well, one of the coaches at my rink - and he has been in the sport for well over 40 years - tells me that combination jumps first happened because skaters couldn't hold the landing of a jump in isolation, but had to tack a cherry-flip or loop on to the end to stabilise themselves! So perhaps the adults in question actually find combination jumps easier?

But please don't pretend it's only adults who do this! I've seen younger skaters try elements they're not really ready for, just for fun. In fact, most coaches do help their skaters get some idea of a great deal of stuff, and then go back and consolidate it all later.

And if you are going to teach, you are going to have to teach all sorts and conditions of skaters, from the older woman who just hangs on to your arm all the time and doesn't dare even push, through the kids who are skating as one of a plethora of activities, to the adults who take it fairly seriously but know quite well they'll never be very good, the kids ditto, and, if you are exceptionally lucky, maybe you will have one, just one student who goes places.

But this applies to all skaters, not just to adults! Don't pretend you never see a child skater fluff an element in a competition, or do something that is probably just beyond her capability!

You've never heard of having fun, then? Lots of skaters - and honestly, this applies to all age groups, not just adults - are in it for the sheer fun of it. They don't plan to make a career of it, couldn't care less if they never passed another test - but they are still going to see how far they can get. The younger ones will probably lose interest with secondary school or, if they survive that, with their first serious romance, but the adults will probably stay with it while they are physically able to do so.

Again, you must show why this is just adults? In my experience, it's all of us.

And yes, it is good for our sport. It's superb for our sport. It's exactly what our sport needs. You are saying, basically, that nobody can play on a football team unless they are in the Premiership, or whatever your equivalent in the USA is. That nobody can bake a cake unless they are a master chef. That nobody can go to a swimming-bath unless they can swim 50 lengths without stopping in all four main strokes.

How, please, do you plan for people to learn? And what do you do with the 99.9% of athletes who never get beyond the basics?

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

You will find all sorts of personalities with figure skaters and all sorts of coaches to coach them. I'm sure, Greg, that you'll fit in the big scheme of things somewhere so don't let some of these members here get you down. Your intentions seem all good.

The problems you talk about don't seem to be solely with adults; the kids and teens can be just as bad and the parents many times feed into the frenzy to do advanced jumps and spins. I've been in skating most of my life and I think there is more of a push in recent years to do things faster, bigger, with more rotations, all that, rather than striving to have more artistry and well balanced skaters. I think it is sad.

You seem to have more than your share of prima donnas at your rink and it could be due to your location and popularity of skating in your area. I don't know. I have skated at many rinks on a regular basis and know there are kids and adults alike who need to check their tiaras at the door, so you aren't alone on that. Coaches have their own agendas and some call the kids and adults on their behavior, some don't. Some coaches will teach whatever the student wants and go the direction the student wants to go, even if the expectations are highly unrealistic. They want happy students and to have a full schedule. It is a business, from a coaching perspective. I don't think they're producing very talented skaters in the long run and I betcha the majority of those students rushing into the tricks will burnout and never come anywhere close to the goals their set out to achieve in the first place. Plus, the coaches aren't doing their reputations any favors. The word gets out, trust me. I think there are checks and balances with this problem you are concerned about, so hang in there!

Greg- since your original obective of this post was to gain information for your potential coaching, I would have to say that as an adult (successful,serious ...adult) , I would not take lessons from a coach with your perceptions. You may want to think about what type of students you are wishing to attract.

I agree. The original post mentioned that this might sound "uppity" and I must heartily agree with that sentiment. Why would I want to pay you money if you think adult skaters are a joke? Especially if you act that way.

As a potential coach, I would suggest that you don't have much business sense.

I am an adult skater, with a college degree, a husband and a nice life. I feel pretty good about my choices and my choice to skate as a hobby. I don't go to the rink to feel crappy about myself or skating in general. That's why it's a HOBBY-i.e. something one does for FUN.

Finally, why the heck would I care what some snotty teenager thinks of me?

You know what Hannahclear and FLo, I haven't attacked you personally and I don't think I've attacked anyone else here. Why does it seem you're really getting rude and antagonistic towards me? I never said I thought adult skaters were a joke! I NEVER SAID THAT!

I don't have much business sense? Did I say I was in business? I'm a student. I have a bachelors degree in dance. I'm working on my masters in dance education. I don't have a business degree but maybe I should get one? Is that what you're saying? I guess coaches get their MBA before they coach? Are you saying that because I think skating basics should be stressed before moving on to harder elements, I have bad business sense and shouldn't be considering coaching? Are you saying the coaches who skim over this stuff, let their students do whatever their 'lil heart desires- have good business sense? You're saying I'm in the minority out there? Go ask some elite coaches what they think. I'm interested.

Are you saying that everyone should just have fun and not worry about injury or the reputation of the adult field of competitive and rec skating? Are you saying that teenagers, the ones who make up a very, very large percentage of the comp skating world, should treat adults like you who have no regard for what they think-with respect and deference? What ARE you saying cuz I'm getting confused.

I am trying to learn. I did said that. I didn't say I was a teenager, either. Also, I am years and years away from wanting to coach. I have much to learn. I have appreciated all the comments so far and I've said that. I haven't said "no, you're wrong" when people disagreed with me and I haven't said I was right and that my view was the gospel and that anyone else not on my sheet of music was wrong. I am willing to listen and learn and gather some insight. Excuse me for entering my thoughts on these questions and sharing with people what my perception and observations are. I guess you don't want to know all sides of the story, only your own. Sorry. I am not going to pursue this discussion any longer because I think you're only hearing what you want to hear and you're not as open minded as many posts here keep saying I need to be. Greg

I'd just like to comment that learning things "out of order" is often a valuable teaching technique. Also, what the correct order is depends what syllabus you're learning from.

When I was a kid learning to skate, the only tests were figure tests. Back three turns were tested on the second figure test (juvenile test). By the time most skaters had passed the first test, they usually were landing axels already and at least starting to work on the first double jumps. And there was no requirement for coaches to teach back three turns before then.

I quit shortly before I was ready to test my first figure test. So I was starting to learn double salchows, but I had never been taught back threes.

These days the USFSA has a learn-to-skate program that introduces back threes before most (any?) of the single jumps. Skaters who come up through that program will at least be familiar with the concept of turning from backward to forward on one foot from an early stage and be able to incorporate those turns in footwork or as transitions in programs long before they're ready to control the edges enough to do second-test figures or prejuvenile and higher Moves in the Field.

As an adult, I struggle with the back threes on the prejuv alternating threes pattern, which is why I am unable after years of adult skating to test prejuvenile moves, and which is one reason I'm not close to being able to test the adult silver moves either. My coach has me working on back threes not only in the prejuv and intermediate patterns on the adult silver test, but also in other patterns or parts of patterns from juvenile, intermediate, and novice tests and exercises she puts together herself. Working on something from a higher test or just a different pattern actually makes it easier for me to learn something useful about weight placement, etc., for the back turns than if I just repeated the prejuv pattern over and over again.

The prejuvenile freestyle test requires both a camel and a camel-sit combination. The adult silver freestyle test requires camel and any combination, camel-sit being the easiest/most common choice. Skaters working toward these tests are working to get the solo camel up to a test standard for the first time, but also on combining it with another position. Going from camel to sit is actually often a good way to save a shaky camel entry. So in a competition program, why not put in the combination if it has a better chance to finish strongly than the solo camel?

My loop jumps tend to be better in some ways as the second jump in a combination than as solo jumps. I can do loops from several different approaches, but the ones I'm best at would not be very useful for double loops should I ever be ready to attempt those. Should I only do loops from one entry, and only one that's supposed to set up a jump I may never get to, or should I keep trying them from all sorts of approaches and try to transfer what I learn about the technique from the setups that work best to the other setups that are harder for me?

In other words, working on harder skills and combinations of skills often helps improve the easier ones more than just repeating the basics in isolation.

And often skills have been mastered enough to be combined or elaborated for fun or for program choreography long before they're perfected (when is any skill really perfect anyway?) or even mastered to test standard in isolation. And often different skaters learn different types of moves easily and struggle with others at the same test level. So flexibility in the learning sequence is a positive, IMO.

I'm lucky that my current coach approaches things like this, and unlucky that my childhood coach didn't think to pre-teach some harder basic skills out of sequence.

Very good point. One thing that you didn't touch on in your post though are the psychological benefits of working on harder stuff. Sometimes working on more difficult skills than those you can do well helps with your confidence on the easier skills.

As an example, when I was first able to land my axel, if only tentatively, I discovered that I could pop up from the landing and come really close to tacking a double loop on the end. I worked on this at first with no real hope of landing it, but it sure made doing an axel on its own feel far less daunting. There is a clear correlation between having the nerve to attempt an element with confidence and the likelihood of it being a good attempt, and working on harder stuff is a sure way to improve your confidence on the easier stuff. After that my axel was never much of a problem. Eventually I landed my double loop for the first time this way too.

John

I agree. Once again, from my experience at the PSA conference: in the on-ice segment on teaching turns, the presenter noted that many times a student will rotate the wrong way when learning three turns, but we should not "correct" that, but rather, point out that the "wrong" rotation for a three turn produces a bracket....thus turning a mistake into a learning experience. Of course we do not teach brackets at the same time as threes, but when the opportunity presents itself, we should at least introduce the concept of the more advanced turn.

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Okay Gregyoshi, chill out. You now let us know that you have been in the dance world for quite some time. Tell us why you want to enter the skating world? Do you plan to coach skating or choreography or bring your ballet education to help skaters 'present' better? There are some wonderful off-ice ballet instructors that do come onto the ice to help skaters with their body movements. The ones that are successful work well with the technical coaches and don't try to cross over the line.

I think there has been a many excellant posts here for you to digest in our attempt to answer your initial question. I would like to see the PSA pick up on these posts and share them with their coaches!

Perhaps it is time for you to discontinue participation here as we seem to be at an impasse.

I want to thank everyone for some very insightfull stories and serious thought. It has helped me to understand and accept my own adult skating history.

As a young adult who frequently coaches adults, I thought I'd add to this enlightening discussion.

In some ways, the hardest part about coaching adults is that they have their own ideas and agendas. Obviously, most take their coaches' ideas and agendas into consideration when making decisions! The other important point is that adults, like kids, are going to have varying levels of committment to the sport. I have one adult student right now who I only manage to give a lesson to every month or so, between my schedule and his (don't get me started on the ice schedules in our area right now). I've explained to him that regardless of how often we work together, he's really only going to improve if he can practice on a regular basis. He doesn't often manage to do this. As a result, we're working on the same things we were working on when I took him on eighteen months ago. He talks about doing things that he's years away from doing, like starting dance, and I remind him that he'd have to be putting in a lot more hours on the ice and getting lessons at least once a week to be making that kind of progress. Is it frustrating? Yes, for both of us. But I've accepted that he's not going to be a super-dedicated, quick-progressing student, and we work with that. He's very enthusiastic when we do get together, and I still enjoy teaching him. I had another adult student in her late fifties/early sixties who had skated off and on for several years but had never managed to "get" crossovers. I was able to get her doing them on one side, but not the other. She had a lot of fear issues that she wasn't really willing to totally push herself to get over- which is fine. I accepted the fact that if she ever got those CW crossovers it would be quite awhile down the road, and we worked on other basics in the meantime. Before we lost our ice time, I actually did get her to do one CW crossover on three or four separate occasions.

Would I like it if all of my adult students were 100% realisitic about their abilities, and willing to push themselves and get in the practice time they need to achieve their goals? Of course. But with adults- any students really- you have to take them for what they are and what they're willing to give. And yes, there are some adult skaters out there with a truly overblown sense of their abilities. I know a couple. But what tends to happen is that they get their butt kicked in a competition, or fail a test, (it may have to happen more than once, BTW) and they either quit or say to their coach, "What do I have to do differently?"

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Shae-Lynn and Victor: We knew you were champions, and on 3/28/03 the whole WORLD found out! Thank you for twelve wonderful years!

This is pretty much me, too. I skate three times a week for a total of 3-4 hours. I'm hoping to start bumping that up soon. I too, am usually the oldest on the ice--even including most of the coaches. Most of the kids know me, and some of them even talk to me.

My coach teaches me basic and more advanced skills at the same time, frequently in the same lesson. And, we both know my limitations. I have a healthy dose of fear when I do anything going backwards, so we approach that cautiously. I'll never be a great skater--I may never win a competition--but I have fun and am learning something everytime I step on the ice. Isn't that what life is about?

I'm 41, started skating at 38. Most of the other adult skaters at my rink (who I rarely ever see) are 10+ years younger than me. And, like you, I am getting better a little at a time, and have a sport that most of my friends and co-workers will NEVER attempt.

I was referring to your younger friends who think that adult skaters are a joke. Why do I care what they think? No really, why?

If you want to be a coach, you'd better have some business sense to attract and keep students. With your current attitude, as a prospective theorectical student, there's no way I'd hire you. And I'm a skater.

I actually agree that basics come first, but your attitude is borderline insulting.

Finally, I agree with flo.....chill. You ask for opinions and you'll get them!

What I am reading on this thread is consistent with what we see on the ice and in human nature. Some want to learn an element well and will take time to master it others prefer to "check the box" and say they have passed. We see that at work & school. But in the end it all catches up. (tortoise & the hare story).

I started a year or two behind some of the adults with whom I skate. One in particular seemed to gloat a bit as to what level he was at. Two years later I am only one level behind him. He seemed more interested in the badge level than true mastery. Which seems to be catching up with him at the higher levels. I might add that his posture is poor and arm positions are not straight, and no edges on cross overs. He has spent a fortune on skates (always the latest boot and over the top blades). But you know what, that's what gives him pleasure and how he likes to execute his hobby.

I probably don't look great on the ice, wimpy jumps & un relaxed shoulders. But I spent time developing the areas I am weak on and don't care about the levels.

This is an individual sport and how it gives us pleasure and satisfies our motivations and goals is unique to each of us.

I see that coaches ask what we want to get out of the sport and work towards helping us acheive that within the framework of badge and testing levels.