Not everyone knows how to separate good info from bad info over the internet. Sometimes you find outdated postings/rules and if you go by that you can get into serious trouble. I recommend to parents that they spend the few extra bucks and get a current rule book so they can stay up to speed, and make sure their coach has one as well (our rink learned this the hard way, when a coach was teaching with one several years out of date-required elements for programs were omitted at a competition).

I try to keep folks informed about adult skating (recreational and competitive), but not be pushy about it. Like I said, the adult skating group at my rink is small-myself plus 3 other ladies but it's slowly growing (2 in LTS). My coach is well-informed (and she competes, synchro).

Its nice to have a council that listens.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Here's the thing. Skating is expensive. If I'm going to invest that much money and what little free time I have into something that is purely a hobby/obsession at this point, I'm going to seek out the rules and at least know the appropriate people to contact if I have a question. That's called being responsible. And if I'm paying someone to be my coach, and they refuse to learn the rules that apply to me, guess what? I'm finding a different coach.

I learned this lesson the hard way, I failed my prelim freestyle test when I was 11 because my coach put me on the ice with the wrong jumps in my program--did the competition version, not a watered down test version. Failed because I had an axel toe, not a waltz toe...yes, I actually had an axel back in those days. One of the judges gave ME a long lecture on making sure my program followed the rules. Not my coach. So I got a rulebook and vowed to never let something like that happen again and to become a check on what my coach knew (because we're all human and make mistakes). And I was 11...if an 11 year old can do it, surely an adult can teach themselves a basic understanding of the rules, too.

RULEBOOK=ONLINE, ON USFS WEB SITE, FOR FREE NOWADAYS!!!! So is all the contact info for all the members of the adult skating committee who are (or should be) more than willing to help point someone in the right direction. If you know how to find the USFS web site, I don't think there are really any excuses. I started skating in the 80s before Al Gore invented the internet, and Skating magazine was a piece of crap that no one really bothered to look at, and we managed to find things just fine back then.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Yes, in the final analysis, if a coach is prepping skaters to test --ANY skater and ANY test--he or she must remained informed and current. I think a lot of people trust their coaches to know these things. If a coach is aggressively clueless or doesn't seem interested in finding out info for adults, then it may be time to find a different coach. I say this from personal experience. My old coach couldn't/wouldn't teach me the waltz 8 for the PB test (nor the three-turn pattern -- he literally couldn't figure it out from the diagram).

Trying to educate people is an old gripe of mine (no wonder; I've been teaching college for a million years). Really, you can tell people info, write it down for them, email it to them, make posters, snail mail them, facebook them, and etc. and some folks still won't get it. At that point, forget them (or, as I do, worry about the future of civilzation...ha!).

The clueless coach will hopefully be a thing of the past in the not too distant future. PSA now requires Continuing Education Requirements (CER) that cover such basics as familiarity with the rule book. It wasn't too long ago that that a coach just signed up, paid the dues and that was it.

For less then the price of a lesson, everyone can have a rulebook sitting next to their computer or else book mark the online version. I like paper version so it's well worth the investment. Coaches now receive it as part of their USFS Coach registration process and fee. So it's just up to them to read it.

LMAO!!!

Yup! I also wonder about that. From my test experience (and at least two failed Bronze Moves test), it's hard AS IS to judge a moves element based on the adult test track. I've aimed my training more towards doing the moves as if I was doing them on the standard track test. I think the multiple track for the standard moves test would make it even more confusing if you ask me!!!

There will always be clueless coaches, unfortunately! (And BTW: I've heard of coaches (not at MY rink, of course... ) who don't bother reading up about the WBP requirements when they choreograph their Adult student skater in competition. The unfortunate skater gets marked down and wonders why their excellent skate got dinged if their mistakes are not caught in time (say at a skating critique before the competition.)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I'm really really REALLY lucky to have my coach! Not only does she stay current, she competes so she sees things from both sides of the fence. As far as testing to an 'adult' standard, she wants me to push it hard. She went to a few test sessions and watched the adults testing, so she knows what passes and what doesn't.

RachelSk8er, that is EXACTLY what happened to our girls about 6 years ago. The coach (who was also skating director, now long gone) didn't stay up to date. About 8 girls didn't even place in the competition. Girls were upset, parents were TICKED!!! She was embarrassed. The following season, she had a new book. Really no reason for this to happen.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

The question came up about what the voting records next to the RFAs means - it means that that was the record of the specific committee to get it on the docket for GC. FWIW, we discussed a few items last night at our board meeting and opinion was requested for our club's vote

Hi All,

I hope I can answer some of your questions . . .

GC has NOT yet begun, so it is incorrect that anything has passed. The vote numbers you see on the RFAs are the yea/nay votes from applicable committees that voted to send them to the USFS board of directors prior to GC. The board then votes on them, THEN it goes into a general vote from all attending delegates and their proxies.

MIF - the adult & masters passing averages are NOT a new track of testing. This will be the SAME set of tests, but at a lower passing average. You must declare that you want to take the test at the lower average or you will be tested at the standard passing average.

There is no discussion at this time about changing anything else in the adult tests, such as making the entire standard track available at a lower passing average. The adult tests are not going away.

MIF - the age variance for the adult passing average to begin at 25 instead of 21 is to prevent the unintended consequences of younger skaters taking these tests at a lower passing average when they are capable of taking the standard passing average.

The adult skating pages on the USFS site - please offer suggestions if what you would like to see is not there! ON this page: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=112 there is a link directly to the rule book. Every skater should be familiar with the rules that apply to their skating.

Also, the adult skating pages now have their own photo montage banner at the top!

Stay tuned for GC news!

~ Lexi

I would really like to see the RFAs presented in a "summary" format for clubs. The language of much of the rulebook is so dry it could rival the Sahara. I know the official language often has to be written the way it is, but I think it could be easily summed up for people who don't necessarily need all the gory details. people who need the details will find them. but for the purposes of most of the membership, give them some simplified language. and maybe prepare separate info packages for test chairs, adults, coaches, etc.?

Was wondering.....

Right now it looks as if the adult MITF testing track only goes up through Gold, then the skater would have to go back to the beginning and do the standard tract all the way through in order to take Intermediate MITF (and, subsequently, the Intermediate FS which would qualify a skater to skate Championship Masters.) Right? Are they adding an Adult Masters MITF, or is that still the case? If you want to skate beyond Gold, you must go back and take all the standard MITF, albeit at the lower passing average?

No, once you pass your adult gold moves, you do NOT have to go back to the beginning of the standard track. You go right to Intermediate. I suppose you could take all the standard track from the beginning if you wanted to. Also, just because you take the MIF tests, does not mean you MUST take the corresponding freestyle test. You don't ever have to take freestyle tests at all if you don't want to. It's possible to have passed all your moves tests but have no freestyle tests.

To your second question, what they are proposing is not adding a "Masters MIF", and again, no, you will not have to go back to the beginning if you want to skate beyond Gold. No matter what, if you pass your Gold moves, you never have to go back to the beginning of the standard track, you keep going right in to Intermediate. What is being proposed is a lower Adult and Masters passing average for the Intermediate, Novice, Junior and Senior MIF tests. Both Adult (ages 21-49) and Masters (ages 50+) will have a slightly lower passing average than the corresponding standard track MIF tests. This is supposed to help encourage adults to keep testing after passing Gold moves. Also proposed is a lower Masters (ages 50+) passing average for the Bronze through Gold MIF tests. Hope that helps?

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Oh..... so that's what's ment by TR 19.02 B. Thanks Stormy.

To further clarify...here, with reference to the addition of adult and masters passing averages for the intermediate-senior MIF tests,

MASTERS IS WITH REGARD TO AGE.

AGE 50+ gives you the option of a masters passing average, which is lower than even the adult (age 25+) passing average.

Again, these are 100% optional. A 54 year old could take senior MIF on the standard track if she wanted to. Just because someone is 25+ does not require them to take the test at an adult standard, and 50+ does not require a masters standard. We all know that there are certain 50+ skaters out there (ahem, Cindy Crouse) who could run circles around us 20-somethings.

The terminology that we have in adult skating tends to lead to so much of the confusion (i.e. masters...does that mean high test level, or high age? Or both?). It's been bugging me for a few years now. Next year when my school schedule is less hectic, I'd really like to work on proposing some re-wording to help fix that and make things more consistent across the board, if anyone is interested in working with me on it or has any ideas of how to approach it.

Right now the easy way to keep it all straight is just to remember that at adult competitions (excluding synchro), masters=high test level. Testing, masters=age, and has nothing to do with what test level a skater is on. Synchro masters also=age (overall individual ability and level of skating on and adult team is higher than on a masters team).

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

So if the "Adult" option is not a testing track, does that mean that a skater could go back and forth from test to test, i.e. take Novice with the adult standard and then Junior with the kid standard? It seems to me that it makes more sense to structure it like dance testing, where if you pass a test at the adult standard, the rest of your tests need to be done at adult standard unless you go back and re-pass your earlier tests at the kid standard.

Looking through the RFAs again, I noticed that there is also a proposal to eliminate the ISI test disqualification rules. I realize it's difficult to enforce, but it seems unfair to me - if adult skaters tested ISI as kids, why should they get a free pass to the level of their choosing while those who tested USFSA are subject to qual/disqual rules? I think it could lead to problems - I've already seen adult ISI skaters compete in USFSA club comps at a level obviously lower than where they should be - I imagine their thinking is since they haven't tested USFSA, they're fine to skate at Pre-Bronze.

It seems to me that if the goal is to make it easier for ISI skaters to compete in USFSA adult comps, then adopt the same rules that now apply to standard track testing where ISI tests can qualify a skater for a certain level while disqualifying them for lower levels.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Debbie I definitely agree with you!!! But I can answer why the USFS would never allow it.

There is no MITF in ISI testing so to speak. (It was only a footwork sequence in the Freestyle Test). So someone like me (who was good at elements but weak in moves) could "sneak" past the MITF requirements by using ISI tests. (Although, personally, I love this idea).....That is why they will never allow it.

Also, the USFS would loose $ because many skaters would choose to take the ISI tests instead.

Pandora- I think that Debbie is talking about REMOVING something that already exists.

Right now, if you have an ISI test you must compete at a minimum level based on that test. (I'm too lazy to look up what they are. But let's say you have ISI 10 and the rulebook says that means you can skate no lower than Master's Junior/Senior). So that ISI test disqualifies you from skating any lower than that level- it doesn't QUALIFY you to skate in that level. You would still need to take the appropriate tests to get into the level.

What Debbie is saying is that requirement has been removed. (proposed to be removed) So someone who passed ISI 10, but had no USFS tests could, theoretically, take the adult prebronze mitf and freeskate and then skate in that level and kick all our butts, because they can do axels in both directions.

(Oh wait- you were right. Debbie herself is proposing that ISI qualifies you for the level, so you do get by the MITF requirement.)

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Yup, it's in the last sentence. Mind you, I like it!! .....But it will never happen.

An interesting aside. I did find one event that will let high level ISI compete with the USFS: The Empire State Games held every year in NY state (not sure about other state games.) http://www.empirestategames.org/wint...figure2010.htm I don't think I could get by on Platinum Test, though. I'd have to test ISI 7 which is actually a hard test due to some strange jumps (reverse direction loop or flip or lutz, one foot axel-half flip-axel combo, and 2 walleys in a row). Nasty stuff to do correctly. And there is no adult catagory, so I'd be forced to skate against standard intermediate....and would loose BADLY.

Too bad there are no "adult" events included in the state games. It only seems to be standard levels.

It would be nice if the USFS would let the ISI skate a few local non-qualifying adult events with them. It might mean more $ and contestants.

Yes, that's right, but I forgot about the MIF issue (you'd think after all this discussion about MIF it would be fresh in my mind, lol). I do see why it would not be right to have direct qualification using ISI tests, but that being said, I still think there should be a disqualification rule. The rationale for the change says it's to encourage more participation in adult comps by ISI skaters, but if ISI skaters have to take USFSA tests anyway to (theoretically) skate their level, then they have to go through the same process they do now, so it really won't get any easier, unless ISI skaters take fewer tests than they might currently have to and end up skating below their level, which I don't think would add value to adult skating.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Local events are a local issue. Our state games have adult events. It also seems like a non-qualifying competition could set it's own standards and allow ISI or USFS. I've seen ISI competitions that have USFS sanctions (so those skaters can participate). It seems like a local thing, but if you are a USFS club- I don't know what your motivation is to not encourage USFS testing.

I don't know why USFS should let ISI skaters skate without having taken the appropriate tests. ISI requires USFS skaters to take their tests to be eligible for competition (though they've recently added the "Open Freestyle" levels, so if you have USFS tests you at least don't have to do the lower level tests, just the appropriate Open Freestyle test. But if you have your USFS Bronze test, you can't compete lower than Freestyle 3, and that means you first have to register pre-alpha through Freestyle 3 tests to do it.)

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Oh wow!! Cool!! Thanks skittl. I didn't know this ever happened. I will check out the local competitions in the future.

Double checked our state games site. Nope. Looks like only standard level. (Hope someone tells me I'm wrong about this and there is an adult catagory. That would be awesome!)

Well....as for skating together ....just figured the more the merrier.....It's for fun, right? Maybe even bring in a few more competitors and $.

Every State Games sets their own event agenda. NY State has never offered a wide variety of test/age categories, IIRC.
There are so many skaters in NYS that the organizers try to keep the entries low and they target the higher-level skaters. The lowest skating level is ISI FS5 and USFSA Juvenile. Older skaters (over 18) can enter the "Open" categories.
http://www.empirestategames.org/wint...figure2010.htm

By comparison, North Carolina offers the same events you would see at a USFSA Basic Skills/Open competition. Adults 19 and older can choose to skate with their age peers (19+) or against the younger skaters.
http://www.ncsports.org/pdfs/FIGURE_SKATINGreg.pdf


I have mixed feelings about setting a crossover limit, as a former ISI FS5/6 skater. Since we didn't have MITF, just footwork sequences, we don't have the beautiful edges, turns and transitions that USFSA skaters have, so we start off at a disadvantage in competitions. It really is worth it for ISI skaters to take Moves tests to fill in those gaps (if they have them) in their skating repertoires.

I do think (and I hate to say it) that it's time for the ISI and the USFSA to become one system in the US. The ISI has already taken these steps by combining their Freestyle test levels for competitions. Skating is so expensive that very few skaters do both programs. The ISI does some things really well: their national conference is excellent, their sportsmanship/inclusiveness efforts work well, they keep people active and involved in skating for all ages/levels/interests. The USFSA has been eating the ISI's lunch since Basic Skills was launched, but they still didn't get the increase in formal testing that they had hoped for because skaters are staying in Basic Skills instead of transitioning to standard/adult testing.

As an aside, while the ISI's test requirements of jumping in both directions always seems whacky, I've noticed a lot of elite International-level skaters with those skills in their programs during this past season. Gotta get those points somehow, and the ISI was ahead of its time.

The PSA brokered a agreement to work together in anticipation of future combinations, and I think that was a smart move on Jimmy Santee's part.

If skating could merge the ISI and USFSA, Figure Skating would be better off as a whole in the USA. It would be more effective, fun and organized, not to mention less expensive.

As to your question, Debbie's right: as an ISI FS5/6 skater, I "belong" in the Adult Silver freeskate group. I can't compete fairly until I've taken the USFSA tests to reach that point. The ISI does allow skaters who've lost skills to "step down" in their test level which keeps them able to participate as they age. While my ISI test level qualifies me for Silver, it doesn't mean I can still skate at that level... *snicker* I remember how to do an axel and a double loop, but you won't see me attempting either unless my new skates make a dramatic difference in my skating. (Everyone pray for Don Klingbeil to make some magic! lol)

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Wow! This is the first I've heard of this!!

Isk8NYC, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but generally speaking, if there were a merge, then it would be best to test as far as possible in ISI because there is usually a "grandfather" clause in such cases wherein the changes (test rules etc. would take effect after the date of a merge, but not effect those who passed tests before the date of the change.) Is that generally correct?

I'm not sure about getting rid of the ISI requirement. At least it told you where you should be. Without it, when I came back knowing nothing about adult skating and with a coach who didn't either, I probably would have competed AN the first time as Bronze since all I had passed as a kid in USFS was preliminary. That would have been wrong, wrong, wrong! Although I would have liked to have had the option to skate at silver (I was FS 6) that first year.

I do like the petitioning down part of ISI. For those of us who skated as a kid but had many years off, for some people those skills can be long gone.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I'm not a big fan of ISI in general, but that's JMHO. Since ISI is worldwide, I don't see how you could possibly merge the two, though? They're pretty different in structure and testing. ISI is more "for fun" in general, where USFS is more "competitive", IIRC. It's an interesting idea, and I'd be interested to see a plan on how to accomplish it (that's not directed at you Isk8, more just thinking out loud).

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I don't think the USFSA would "grandfather" ISI freestyle tests to bypass MITF. Just mho. There's really no equivalent in the ISI for the MITF tests. I would expect to take the MITF tests from Pre-Preliminary or Pre-Bronze. They *might* be inclined to allow a skip in Freeskate levels, saying that an ISI FS5 skater needed to pass Pre-Juv/Adult Silver before being allowed to compete at those levels int he competition, but maybe not the prerequisite freeskate tests. I doubt it though.

If they made an exception for the ISI, they'd have to do it for skaters who tested in other countries under different systems. I think the USFSA wouldn't want to set such a precedent.

If I were you, I'd pursue the USFSA MITF tests AND the ISI Freestyle tests.

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