That may be true most of the time, but I know of an adult in our area who is great at competition but is terribly nervous during testing.

In his perspective, testing leaves less room for error than competing, because you can miss a few elements in competition but can make up for it with extra speed, presentation, a great spin. Plus your competitors may make mistakes too, so you may come out on the podium with a sub-par performance.

But his view was that during a test if he couldn't get that a particular required element that particular day (even with a re-skate), he fails. Doing an extra jump/spin elsewhere in a program doesn't allow him to pass.

So he tried a few times to pass an Adult test before the Sept 1st deadline, and failed every time. But in competition he's great. So he may, unfortnately, get accused of snadbagging this year at Nationals.

I agree that, at least in the case of Adults, we should all use caution against labeling someone a sandbagger. There are so many reasons why someone could be held back a level or two. Some real life examples that I personally know:

I know one guy who has won medals consistantly at AN, but can't pass to the next level because he can't do a backspin, even though he has elements on higher up tests. Beleive me, he'd love to pass the test.

One woman at a recent AN who had just moved here from another country wasn't sure what level she should be in in the US system. So she competed in Gold and won, landing a beautiful 2loop-2loop combo...more advanced than many of the Novice and up ladies were doing! So now that she knows, she was planning on testing this summer to move up. (Interestingly, in a different event earlier in the competition, she didn't skate nearly as well, and did not win even with her advanced skills)

Similarly to Flo, I know people in Dance/Pairs who don't want to take tests for all the reasons Flo stated.

Of course, there is life/work/bills/kids that hampers adults from testing too! So I too caution against labeling anyone a sandbagger.

There is a flip side to this too...I compete Novice at AN, and was shocked at how many of the Gold skaters were WAY better at jumping than we were! I think there were a lot of Novice level skaters who are Novice only because they passed a test 20 years ago, but can no longer do the elements. I kid you not, that in Novice the past few years a lot of the girls have had trouble landing axels and 2sals (which, one would think, would be standard at Novice). Yet in Gold I see ladies doing axels from spread eagles, 2toes, even 2loops and 2flips. And I think what's happening is a misperception: I've had Gold ladies tell me they are afraid to move up because they think Novice is so much harder! So a lot stay down on Gold just because the word "Novice" scares them!

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this.

My various thoughts on sandbagging... yes, there are people who stay at a certain level in order to win medals; in fact, one of my competitors told me he would not test FS before the Adult MIF tests came into effect because he wanted to win 1st place at AN. But one thing to realize is that, for many of us, you're going to get complaints no matter what you do. Most skaters at any level have some, but not all of the skills that are common in the next higher level (e.g. many bronze skaters have flip & Lutz). If you stay at your current level, some will say you're sandbagging ("He has a ***? Well then, he should move up!"). If you test up, some will feel free to weigh in on your weaknesses ("What's he doing in *** level? He can't even do a ***!").

manleywoman, I'm pretty sure I know who you're referring to in your first post, and yes, it is unfortunate that, if he competes at AN03 at the same level, he will probably be accused of sandbagging when we all know he is doing his best to test up.

It is interesting to me that people worry about sandbagging. To me, it's like this: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I watched a woman at a recent Bronze competition win with a camel-change-camel and a sloppy lutz jump. Now, I have a beautiful lutz-combo and sloppy spins. Do I think should place above Camel-change-camel? No, I use my placement as motivation to continue to work hard on my spins.

I've been called a sandbagger to my face. The woman who accused me could only see the lutz-loop combo in my Bronze program and didn't notice that I had no backspin and my forward scratch had frequent-flyer miles. Even when I tried to explain that I had not passed the Bronze freestyle test and was "skating up" a level and that I could technically compete in pre-Bronze she became even more indignant. She said that I was "depriving" lower-level Bronze skaters of medals.

I could care less about medals. I've won some. I've never won an event. And there were some times I've looked at the results sheet and just *could not* understand what the judges were looking at. But so what? I was pleased with how I skated and that was most important.

So I guess this is a long-winded way to say don't worry about the competition. As long as the rules are the way they are, what other people do has nothing to do with you. IMO, it makes more sense to channel that energy toward improving your skating. Get that flip fully rotated or get your sitspin lower. I'm trying to test up to silver before Adult Nationals. I know people will be doing axels, maybe two. Unfortunately, my axel is two-footed. All I can do is work on getting that clean back-outside edge.

Usually, but not necessarily. I perform much better at competitions (Peach Classic notwithstanding!!)than I do at tests. I know some folks who are just the opposite. It really depends on the skater.

skaternum

Well you sure did get some attitude from that lady! It never ceases to amaze me how skating competitions can reduce adults to childish behavior. (I don't have to remind some of you of a certain poster on FSWorld who blamed everyone who ranked above her of being elite skaters, using positions on their skating club board to influence judging, etc. to rank above her.) This is all supposed to be fun!

DesignDiva, I think you have the right attitude in focusing on your skating only, and blocking out some of the negative comments made by others.

You know, some of the things I'm hearing on this thread are amazing! I cannot believe for instance that someone has come right out and called someone else a sandbagger to their face! Wow! That's just really bad form. Even if its true. I'm trying to search my feelings to see how I would feel about some of this. Its a little hard on a personal level because I haven't had as much chance to compete as I'd like (Missed AN two years ago due to a schedule conflict and tore my calf 2 weeks before it last year). My motivation has been to achieve the skills to test up - whether I'm competitive at that level instantly or not. I like the achievement of getting to the milestone I guess. I skated Silver this past year but only at sectionals, came in middle of the pack because I got nervous and blew the first two elements but felt good that I recovered. My goal is to test up to Gold this fall because I want to compete at that level in the Spring. I may get buried but if I skate well, that will be ok for me. My axel is good (when I'm calm) and my double sal is coming along as is my double loop. I just think it would be fun to compete and have a chance to do them all in my program - for me it will be a victory just to get there at the Gold level. (Must survive the inside 3's from Novice/Gold moves first!)

I am also a better in competition than tests...at least the last time I competed (about 1.5 years ago) I felt much more relaxed and skated better than any tests I've taken so far. I wouldn't mind skating Gold since I can sort of land doubles and think it's fun to try ...I think my spins are also pretty good for Silver - I can do camel-back camels, camel-sit-back sit-Y spins (though not near my ear), and flying camel into back sit. However, I do not have an axel. It's been fairly consistent lately...but for me that means very cheated on one foot or nearly clean on 2 - at least not falling hard anymore, but not exactly test quality. I try and try, but I think axels are just going to be difficult for me.

I will try to go Gold, because I really don't care about winning - I'd rather get to try doubles, but it's still pretty intimidating to think that I'll be up against double flips. Testing Intermediate (to compete Novice) is not an option though .

Kim

dcden, you and I have had conversations about how some people take this stuff a little too seriously.

KJD, I must say, this woman messed with my head a bit. I mean, it took me four tries to pass the Bronze freestyle test. And each time I failed, I left a little confidence on the ice. Then, someone basically tells me that I'm cheating, which even though I find ridiculous, I admit to giving her comments some considration. So, there were a couple of times when I placed lower than I expected when I wondered: "Hmm, are they penalizing me for that 3-jump combo?"

Diva wisdom #53:
In skating, as in life, it is unwise to make assumptions about other people.

Oh Designdiva! Hugs to you! That is so sad! I cannot relate to some adult skaters' behavior.
On the practice ice at Nats this past year, many silver ladies were moaning to me about this one particular skater that was knocking other ladies over left and right! During their music! And she wasn't apologizing! She buzzed by me one time and when she came around again, I stretched my 5'1" wide body to it's fullest. I added a my tough "teacher face" on top (maybe I growled a little too) and she got out of my way pretty fast as she must have weighed 100 pounds tops.
I could not believe her behavior! Now I would never try to hurt someone but if she had given me the bum's rush, chances are she would be the loser as I probably outweigh her by 50 lbs.

We could probably start a whole board about these overly "serious" skaters. Personally, I prefer the spirit of the lady at a training camp that was wearing a medal that said "last place". Yes, she did come in last but she was celebrating that she skated and seemed to be enjoying it. I felt honored to be in her company!

To the obnoxious skaters, I say life is too short to be serious! Get a grip! Get over yourselves! Learn to have fun!

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Kathleen

"It is never too late to become what you might have been."
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LOL! To be polite to the group, I suppose I should confess to everyone here that I was pestering poor Dani while she was warming up her tango at Peach Classic. I was making faces at her and yelling with a terrible accent, "I need to see the *passion.* This is the dance of love." Dani dutifully complied as best she could in the middle of a competition.

I have had a few expeiences either at a competition or seminar that people have said " You're bronze level"
I've had to say no, because I have the same predicament as DesignDiva. I've failed the Bronze freestyle 4 times, with no real chance to take it again unitl I get a clean , consistent 3rd single and my sitsppin lowered. Also, there's the MIF issue now!

Trust me, some of us are not sandbagging- wea re really trying to test up to the next level!

That's exactly what I'n doing!

Dance is different. Sometimes it's better. For example, the competition I'm doing in three weeks (yikes!) said for Intermediate you can't have passed any Silver dances, and the dance was Keats' Foxtrot. Makes sense. I'm competing Novice; I can't remember the requirement off the top of my head. Now, I've passed exactly the maximum for Intermediate, Pre-Silver and no Silvers. BUT, since I've already passed the Foxtrot, I decided to compete Novice. I figure I have to work on my Tango anyway. I know there may well be girls in Novice who have passed a Silver dance or two or three, and it's possible there will be girls who have a Pre-Gold already. My Tango stinks, but I wanted to do this competition because it's near where my best friend moved to and she might come watch. And skating Intermediate at this point seemed, well, pointless. Making the podium would probably not even be a challenge. As much as I like to win things, I'd rather say "I got fifth out of ten or whatever in Novice, and that's my best finish in Novice so far," than "Yeah, I won Intermediate," when I know that the girls in Intermediate will probably be girls who are working on their Foxtrots, not girls who have passed it. In other words, I technically am eligible for Intermediate, but I know it's better to challenge myself and skate Novice. After all, next year I won't have a choice!

Lake Placid, OTOH, has no requirements or limits for its solo events. I skated Novice Solo this year. The girl who won my group has passed her Gold Dance. Why wasn't she skating senior, or at least junior? I have no idea- although I think she may have skated junior as well. At the other end of the spectrum, another girl from my club skated the same level having only passed her Pre-Bronze. The dances, BTW, were Blues and Rocker. I can't think of a competition except Lake Placid that I'd go to knowing that I could end up competing in Novice against girls who have their Golds. Luckily, the competition thins out big time after Novice. This year they had forty-five Novices and I think twenty Juniors. I'm ready, provided that the dances they draw are ones I can do, to skate Junior next year. I could spend the rest of my life trying to move up to the top spots in Novice. At least in Junior the groups are smaller.

Incidentally, the USFSA seems to have abolished upper-end limits on dance tests. It used to be that passing two Pre-Golds made you Junior, but I know quite a few Novices who have passed that, as well as some Juniors who I'm pretty sure have passed their Golds. Anyone know if it's true that you can pass any dance or moves tests and still compete in qualifying events at the free dance level you've tested? In other words, my understanding- which may be wrong- is that you could technically have you senior moves and gold dance, but as long as you haven't passed your novice free dance and you're not over 18, you could compete Internediate. Does this make sense to anyone?

This sounds like me. My spins far outweigh my jumps. Although my singles are good, I do not have an axel and my 2sal is cheated.

I wonder if anyone has been called a sandbagger for spins.

Kay

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I know the skater in question and disagree with the statement that she is a "real adult sandbagger." Choosing not to test to the next higher level even though one can pass the elements does not make one a sandbagger. I saw a lot of kids at regionals who could do the elements for passing a higher level freestyle test but were competing in a lower level. Would you call them sandbaggers, too?

Some people may be content with medaling only when there are just two to four skaters in their event; others prefer to be competitive in a larger group of skaters. There are many legitimate reasons for not moving to a higher level. I agree with Manleywoman that we should all use caution against labeling someone a sandbagger and would like to add that we should also make sure we are not giving an inaccurate and unfair portrayal of another skater.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with not testing up so that one may have a chance to medal at Nationals. BUT I must have pity for the person that sees no point in competing without that chance. They are missing out on so much!
Also, my best learning experiences in skating have come from competitions where I was skating in a new level or against better skaters. (That Senior lady excluded! That was just ridiculous!)

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Warm Regards,
Kathleen

"It is never too late to become what you might have been."
George Eliot

KathySkates--I myself have never heard this skater say that she saw no point in competing without the chance of winning a medal, and we've had several conversations on this subject. She mentioned several good reasons for not testing up, but that wasn't one of them. She enjoys competing.

I disagree, but maybe the source of the disagreement is the word "chance." Maybe you're putting more emphasis on the "chance" than I've seen. Is there a difference between someone who would be competitive for a medal and someone who is a shoe-in for a medal? Is that what makes the difference between sandbagging and being competitive?

I don't necessarily see it as a matter of being able to pass the next test. Almost everybody who makes it to the final round at AN can pass the next test up. It's also a matter of competitiveness, which is a very gray area. If I can pass the next test, am a shoe-in for a medal at the current level, and could be middle of the pack or better in the next level, but stay at the current level so I can get that $2.50 medal, I'm a sandbagger.

Having said that, I still think we should be careful about labeling someone a sandbagger. I still haven't seen very many in my 4 or 5 years of competing in the adult stuff. It's very hard to tell what someone's internal motivations are. Like all ethical issues, we each must make our own decision.

Let me clarify for a bit! As I do not know the lady in question, I am speaking generally.
When I first began to compete, I won almost every time. Boy was it fun! Who wouldn't love competing under those circumstances?! Later on due to several factors ( skating a higher level, age, better competitors, serious illness) I didn't win nearly as much. At first, I worried that I wouldn't like to compete anymore. Well, I still like it and even though I can't seem to get it together very often to compete much these days, I find I get more out of it and love skating itself just as much or more. Though I would be thrilled to win a competition, I don't seem to miss the medals that I don't win too much! The day after being beaten by some truly superior skaters, I go the rink early with a renewed sense of purpose!
I don't see anything wrong with wanting to win. Or trying to win. I think that once you win, or even medal at US adult nationals you should move on! (Unless you can't pass that test, of course!) IMHO, it is just greedy to stick around for more "jewlery".

Though I don't know for sure, there don't seem to be too many instances of this brand of "REAL" sandbagging.

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Kathleen

"It is never too late to become what you might have been."
George Eliot

Something that happened yesterday prompts me to post a "counter" to this thread. There is a skater here who obviously has no idea of her ability, or lack of it. She insists on entering classes that are too difficult for her, and then minds quite dreadfully when she comes last. Yesterday, had she entered the lowest-level class, she would not have won, but might have finished in the top ten. But she wouldn't enter that class, but insisted on entering the class above, and the Open class, which demanded a Silver Samba. Of course, she finished last by a very long way in both classes, minded dreadfully, and didn't feel able to skate her free dance, but left the arena in tears.

The thing is, what do you say to her? She obviously has no idea of the standard at which she skates, or fails to. If she didn't mind coming last, that would be one thing, but she does mind. I don't know....

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Mrs Redboots
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Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Mrs. Redboots.
That's a good coaching issue. Her coach should speak with her about her golas, or her expectations.

Skating up can be great to see where you do or don't belong. I had skated bronze at one nationals, and then no freestyle for quite a while. I skated up to silver at one local event, did well and found I was competitive, then tested the silver.

I don't even know whether this skater employs a coach - I have a feeling she doesn't, regularly. This is part of the problem.....

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Mrs Redboots
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Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Once you've won at a level four or five years in a row, and know you can beat just about everybody else you know competing at that level, then it's time to move up.

To me, a 'sandbagger" is some who is clearly quite capable of passing the next level (and maybe the level above as well!) but who refuses to move up solely for the ego-boost they gain by coming in first all the time. And while there aren't a lot of them, there certainly are a few and they become quite well-known pretty quickly. I've also known a couple people who LIED about their test levels in order to compete at a level below their test level just to be certain of winning. That's just wrong.

My local interclub competitions have rules that state that the gold medalist in any event cannot compete at that level any more; they must test up to the next level before they can compete in another interclub competition. Adults and boys are exempted from the rule unless there are more than six skaters in the event. This is to prevent the same people from winning over and over. It works pretty well, although it's a pain to administrate.

If this is the same lady that I know then, no, she doesn't have a regular coach and does, unfortunately, have no idea about her level of skating. It's a shame that she puts herself in this position as she could do much better is she skated down a level! A year or so ago she entered a kids class in one of the Opens and then argued with the judges when she was placed last .... it's a difficult call as she isn't open to any constructive 'criticism'.

Thanks for all the replies! I agree with most of what has been said here, the class that I was originally referring to, though was child beginners ..... my jumps are much better than my spins BUT (IMHO) there is NO WAY on earth that a Lutz belongs in a beginners class!

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