I'll ad my 2 cents then I have to dash off to the rink (where else???):

I struggled with these blasted things-i was taught to swing my arms around-bad idea.

My current coach has worked hard (so have I) to fix them-no swinging; strong check, free foot tucked behind. Turning is done by a subtle down-up-down action of the foot/leg. My arms stay where they are. This has helped me so much in overcoming many problems!

I'm still not there but it's a start. I'm also a learner that has to know down to the nth degree what my body needs to be doing at every single second of each movement...and why. My current coach can explain, demonstrate, and makes sure I understand!

I use the hockey goal "circle" for my 3-turns-and turn at the top (or center) of the arc. That way, i'm pushing down the rink...

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Can't argue with that. One of my favorite quotes from my coach's spin instruction is "control the force".

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Doubletoe, I LOVE how you can put into words things like this!!! (There's a coach in you somewhere, methinks...)

It took me a good long while to really figure this out in my body (not just my brain), and only in the past few months have I really been feeling it on my FI3s and on my "bad side" for FO3s (LFO3), and even then I sometimes lose my check.

By corollary, does that mean that on back threes (BI or BO), the chest is always facing outside the circle you're creating? I think this is how I've been (trying) to do them. (I run into trouble when my chest is too square to my hips on BO3s.)

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I think so... At least I'm facing outside on the setup for the 3-s that go from a back outside edge, and I *think* I'm facing outside on the exit edge (before the change-foot) too, but I'd have to check that.
Hey while on subject, is it normal that it seems to me like I have to open up the hip into the rotation on those 3-turns? Is that an error, or maybe because of my closed hips or something?
(the group lessons coach hasn't made remarks about my those 3-turns so far, but they're fairly controlled so I think I have the general idea...?)

Here's some basic tips for backward 3 turns from this website...

http://books.google.com/books?id=Hzd...oxPWULZEE86Wn4

It's on page 143 of this book. I think it should work on any web browser.


·

Thanks!

Physics:
Skater problems are a standard in physics texts. Skaters are excellent examples of physics. As a teacher, I used to bring in my skate spinner for a demo. Kids loved it. I also used to show a vid produced by ESPN w Sasha Cohen that explained angular momentum, centripetal force, etc. It showed Cohen spinning and compared distribution of mass around the center of rotation (don't know if I remember those terms correctly) in a camel and scratch spin. The vid included relevant equations. it was really great and kids liked it.

Doesn't mean skaters need this level of detail, esp those who have not studied physics. Personally, I find it helpful. It is not relevant for young skaters though.

3-Turns:
I have not seen mention of 2-foot exercises. I recently rewatched my PSA MITF tapes. They recommend 2foot exercises on a hockey circle. This method seems to work. I have used it w students. They can get the feel of the body positions w/o fear of falling. Also do the shoulders against hips action of the turn on 2 feet standing still. Move on the 2-foot on the hockey circle then 1-foot.

Kay

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Thanks, Mikawendy! It all comes from having a body that is "stupid" and needs specific directions from my brain, LOL!

Exactly! On the back inside and back outside 3's, you want your back facing the inside of your circle before executing the turn, and your chest facing the outside of the circle. And you want it to stay that way as you exit the turn. Assuming you start your entry edge at the top of the circle (12:00), I find that it works well to look into the circle and have your chest facing into the circle until you hit 1:00 (CW entry) or 11:00 (CCW entry) and then gently start turning your head to look outside of the circle. Once you start turning your head to look outside the circle, gently scissor your hands close to your hips so that the back arm comes forward and the forward arm comes to the back. Now your chest will be facing outside the circle. Bend the ankle and execute the turn from the hips down.

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You're welcome sessy. If you want to see more things about the 3 turn...eg page 144 and 146....then you must use google ... and type in : "inside three turns" - without the quotes.

Then google will give you a link that says :

"Ice Skating: Steps to Success - Google Books Result"

Click on that link..... I could not just copy and paste the link because the google thing is very TRICKY/SNEAKY, and the link that I paste just doesn't seem to work. That is, I can copy and paste the link, but 144 and 146 just won't show up! But very very interestingly, mouse-clicking on the link that I find directly from google works!! Pretty sneaky stuff.

Thanks for the link =] the physics stuff was lost on me though =P.

Yes. Of course, you gotta remember a typical intro science textbook has between 0.3 and 3 errors/page - sometimes math errors, sometimes notational inconsistencies, sometimes outdated or bad science they copied from another intro textbook, that copied from another intro textbook, etc.

I don't have any problem with the physics book example where bringing in the arms and legs makes you go faster.

But I think the hypothesis that pressure induced melting point shift is sufficient to explain how ice "melts" under ice skates to let you glide was debunked decades ago, but it still appears. (It takes a lot of pressure to melt ice - even many glaciers don't have enough.)

More modern theories possibly involving surface physics effects possibly combined with friction, sheer and/or thermal melting are both controversial and harder to explain.

Besides, they lose the whole point of the intro physics book example, which is to illustrate the idea that water crystals (dry snow) have such an open crystal structure, that compressing it forces it into fluid state and lowers the melting point, unlike most rock and metal solids, where compressing pushes the atoms or molecules into a more compact solid crystal structure, and so raises the melting point. (Though under at some pressures and temperatures for most rocks, more pressure produces a "plastic solid", one of things that makes continental drift possible.) But ordinary ice is already non-crystalline, and I guess could be called a supercooled liquid, an amorphous solid, or a glass (I'm not sure what the distinctions are), so it compresses much less than dry snow.

The physics books should maybe choose a different example, that you can sometimes compress snow into snowballs (more or less ice), a different phase change.

I've never seen an explanation of why one foot skaters are more stable moving than standing still. I assume it involves hydrodynamics, but most planing hull boats are less stable moving.

Most boats lie deeper in the water when they lie still, because the thrust of the engine sorta lifts the boat out of the water (especially if it's not a propellor engine but a jet engine, but even propellor boats have a very noticeable change of surface angle between still and top speed), especially at high speeds. With movement in skating, you can dig your edge into the ice and when you stand still you don't dig your edge into the ice at all. Maybe the right comparison is like... Ever seen how some salespeople cut materials for sewing? They make a small cut and then let the scissors rip through the material. Those rips are smoother than normal scissorcuts too.

I really don't understand hydrodynamics, but I think most small powerboats are planing hulls (like whitewater kayaks), so that the overall water flow, particularly at the bow, is downwards, which means the boat (especially the bow) is pushed upwards. It makes sense that if the bow is tilted upwards, as I notice it is in ordinary speedboats, the motor thrust would accentuate the tendency to come out of the water.

I think most big ships are displacment hulls (like sea kayaks), so the majority of flow at the bow is upwards (to make a bow wave), and motion may make the boat go deeper (I'm not sure - two different engineers gave me different takes on this - perhaps it isn't the same for all ships).

I like to think skates are more like planing hulls. For one thing, when you tilt, you tend to turn into the tilt - a characteristic of planing hulls; displacement hulls tend to turn out of the tilt. But I'm not sure stability at speed makes sense for a planing hull.

So maybe it is more of a displacement hull, and the blade is thrust downwards by faster motion? Or does cutting through the ice create stability, because of the forces against the sides of the blade from the solid?

People must have done a few studies about this, and I guess I could look for them if I really wanted to.

I guess I don't understand that either. Why does would the rip go faster and smoother than the cut? Is what purer sheer force? Or maybe the scissors ends up cutting threads in both directions, whereas the rip only has to split threads at right angles to the tear. If the second case, ice doesn't have the same structure, with threads woven at two orthogonal directions. I don't think you can rip fabric like that at a diagonal direction.

Maybe I should go read some ice physics before saying anything else. But honestly, I don't think going that far into the physics will help even an analytic nut like me skate - I'd rather spend the time practicing.

My coach has basically told me the things I need to do to make 3 turns better. My body just doesn't seem to want to do them. I had the simple technique OK within a few months of starting to skate, but checking and controlling trajectory remain out of reach. That's why I like inside 3 turns better (forwards) - checking isn't needed as much to avoid continuing the rotation. And dance threes (drop threes), where you quickly switch to the oppostite foot, eliminate the need completely, so are much easier.

It is possible the original poster was looking more for how to initiate the inside three than how to control it. If so, all we needed to say is she should place the arms and shoulders along the arc of motion (i.e., embrace the circle), pull the leading arm and shoulder forward and the trailing arm and shoulder back as she rocked onto her toe, perhaps brushing the toe pick, and the snap would just happen.

I was working on these yesterday and my coach the exact same thing and it really worked for me!

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Level one Field Moves......PASSED 05.06.08
Level one Free dance.....PASSED 02.10.08

GOALS FOR 2009

• Level One Compulsary dances.......PASSED 19.02.09
• Level One Elements.....................PASSED 10.07.09
• Level Two Free dance.................PASSED 19.02.09
• Level One Free...........................
• Level Two compulsory dances.......

Loving it, Loving it, Loving it!!!!!

A quick little tip that helped me get the left forward inside three. I had the right, trouble with the left. The tip is to lean a little outside the circle. Don't know why it worked, but it did for me.

Thanks everyone, I passed them today (God knows how) . They still need a lot of work - but for now, I'm happy with them.