It seems to me like a lot of posts on this thread are based on the assumption that everybody wants to progress in the same general fashion to higher skating levels.

While there are many skaters, both child and adult, who want to learn and master every element, there are also many skaters who are less concerned with, or perhaps unable to, master every skill. For a lot of us, learning a bunch of decent skills "out of order" is a lot more satisfying than struggling day-after-day with only one element because other skills are supposedly based on other elements.

Prior to taking my pre-preliminary MIF as a teenager, my coach taught me both forward and back brackets. I couldn't do all of my back 3-turns cleanly, but I could do brackets, which I ironically thought were a lot easier and a lot more fun! Learning them, in turn, gave me a lot of confidence which then improved my back 3s.

The same thing happens with children skaters. Who hasn't seen a no-test 7-year-old who can do axels despite having choppy edges? All it means is that the skater is still in the process of learning, as most of us are. The patterns and skills that work for some skaters don't work for others. But if the skater is enjoying the skating experience (even if it means low scores and "embarrassing" others at skating competitions), I'm not entirely certain that there's anything wrong with it.

But if it is at passing standard then I take it back- I never said you shouldn't work on something until you've totally mastered it- that would indeed be horribly counterproductive. And I'm sorry that spin is giving you so much trouble- ironically I hate backspins so I guess our situations are flip-flopped, haha. A backspin-layback must be pretty hard though, and uncommon, so you've definitely got a skill I have never seen anyone do, and I've seen a lot of spins. And that rocks. Actually I'm not sure that I could do a backspin-layback sequence. More power to you. I love forward scratches though, I definitely don't claim to be better than your coach or in any position to help over the internet but, would you care to say what you are having trouble with in the scratch? I know it's not a big deal but there must be some way it could be more comfortable for you, or some word of advice that hasn't been said?

I think it's kinda sad Gregyoshi that you asked for comments from adult skaters but then decided you'd back out of the debate because you werent getting answers you liked. I think the posts you objected to are exactly the ones you should be taking most note of because they show how your attitude is coming across to many of the adult skaters on here. (It may not be what you really mean or feel but you are free to point that out, nicely). To me that says you would not be very successful teaching adults, at the current time, with those attitudes, because as adult skaters I think most of us would like first and foremost from our coaches, some respect - we have chosen to skate for whatever reason and we are paying you to teach us. If you are not willing to work with us - and that means finding out if we want to skate seriously or if it's just fun, whether we want to compete or take part in the club shows - because we don't fit your idea of what a skater should be, then fine - don't teach adults. The difference between most kid skaters and most adult skaters is that the kid skaters all start off dreaming that they can make the Olympics; adult skaters know that they never will, so they dont have the same pressure on them to perform to the same level of skill.

However a great many adults do like to compete. At the adult level it is generally a much more laid back affair and can be as much about socialising with like minded indidviduals as skating. That's not to say some don't take it extremely seriously and they are generally the ones that win the medals.

For my part I started skating at age 38 - why? Because I'd always wanted to and never had the opportunity previously. I had no intentions of competing originally but was pushed into it by a fellow adult. My first experience was pretty horrible - a group of 18 at dance levels up to level 5 (I had no tests at this point). I came 15th. I learnt that I didn't like compulsory dance very much and I had a long way to go. At the same time my coach gave me programmes for Free dance and original dance and I was much better at these. Although in the UK there is no test track for original dance til you've done 3 levels of variation dances the third of which is based on a level 5 CD, I have since competed original dance and Free dance and been quite successful. This is my strength in skating and I will play to it where I can.

As a child I may not have had the freedom to do that, as it doesn't fit the structure. If my coach had insisted on me being able to do level 5 CD's to passing standard before trying an OD I would have given up skating long ago.

I think it is hard for some of those skaters here who have come into skating as children and are still in the late teens/young adults category to really appreciate how different it is to learn as an adult - and it may surprise you to know that learning anything new as an adult, is very different from learning it as a child. And yes this applies to ballet and gymnastics and to such things as learning a foreign language. For example in skating, I see lots of kids whose coaches will show them a move - let's say a jump - and the kid will simply copy it and eventually they get it right. Now for an adult it may make it easier if the coach explains each bit separately, talks about where to put the arms, where the body weight is and why this helps, right at the beginning. The young kids probably wouldn't need it and wouldn't understand it anyway. Also if a kid flings themselves at a jump and falls, it doesn't matter, whilst for adults falling has consequences - if I break my arm, all family activies stop (not just mine) - who will cook , clean, drive, work? The approach is different but the goal is the same (and often doing a competition concentrates the mind wonderfully so why not put in those barely there skills if you want - may not make much impression this time but by next year they might be great).

As for harder skills being more risky - in my experience those adults who've broken things have been doing very basic things when they broke them, not jumps at all.

The adult perspective is different and until you can appreciate that, rather than (apparently) berating them for not following exactly the kids structure you may find it difficult to work with adults as a coach. You took the right steps in asking us, but do not appear to be willing to adjust your perception of what a skater is, to accommodate adults with all their individualities.

__________________
'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

I'd like to commend fadedstardust for being as honest as she has been, and yes, open-minded in the discussion. She has offered some good advice and interesting points of view.

__________________
Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

[QUOTE=batikat]I think it's kinda sad Gregyoshi that you asked for comments from adult skaters but then decided you'd back out of the debate because you werent getting answers you liked. I think the posts you objected to are exactly the ones you should be taking most note of because they show how your attitude is coming across to many of the adult skaters on here. </quote>

I "backed out" of the debate after I responded about 4 times with my opinions and then 2 snotty, rude people told me to stop responding. Flo, ya out there? I felt like they were personally attacking me when I never once accused anyone here of doing anything wrong or making it personal or about them specifically. I told you guys what I have observed. You made assumptions about me, read between the lines and flat out got ugly. Nice bunch ya got here. You say adult skaters are supportive of each other and such a nice bunch. Bullcrap. You'll kick each other in the teeth, given a tiny chance.

You should be able to voice your opinions in general and I think its cool but telling someone to shut up and "chill" because you can't stand hearing their side of the story is childish and cowardly. It is also very condescending, especially when they aren't even moderators.

There have been several other people posting on my thread who have been extremely objectionable and rude but nobody has told them to shut up. What's up with that?

I don't think anyone is benefiting from this debate anymore and that it is bringing out hatefulness in people. I even decided this site isn't really worth my time due to the nasty few who sour the whole place. Keep your blinders on, shut out people who are just trying to learn and what you'll have is a conversation with yourself. Sounds like a boring forum to me.

Good luck with your skating. I'll not let the door hit me on the *** when I leave.

Wow, impressed with yourself much?

How long have you been waiting to say that to someone?

Obviously you've not met the same adult skaters most of us have - yes the odd ones like that are out there - but it's not nearly so prevalent as in the kid skating world.


Reading through the posts, it seemed to me that you might just be the one with the blinders on. If you seriously are interested in teaching adults then you seriously need to know why we dislike some of the attitudes that came across in your posts but even more those in the posts of hankykeely and arena gal. From this last post we can assume you are not really interested in teaching adults - just in ruffling feathers. I don't see anything rude in someone suggesting you chill out a bit. You are free to leave and those of us who enjoy this forum will not miss your attitude at all.

However if you genuinely want to learn from those of us who have the experience in this i.e. the adult skaters, then you need to learn to accept that some of what you said and lots of what hankykeely and arena gal said may have caused offence. I didn't sense any hatred on any side - ever think you might be overreacting???

__________________
'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

You're working at the Halloween Classic?? Not on my watch!! Who are you?

phillyskater

When last we heard, you do not qualify as an adult (either by age or maturity in this discussion).

Well said, phillyskater. We certainly don't need *that* kind of attitude around an adult competition, thankyouverymuch.

Thank you. I love these discussions, they provide me with insight I wouldn't get elsewhere. I appreciate everyone remained patient with me, as well.

Meanwhile, Greyyoshi, wow. All I wanna say, and I've agreed with SOME of the less inflammatory things you've said but, all I wonder is WHY ON EARTH you are working an adult competition (poor people, are you really that desperate for money/free ice time, or just a hypocrite and enjoy pretending to help when really you'll just undermine everyone with your negative- if unspoken- attitude?) And even more, why would you even, in the most fleeting of moments, for one second, consider teaching adult skaters? You very clearly have a hatred towards them. Actually, I think, even though you're probably around my age (I'm 19), that you have a hell of a lot of growing to do before you consinder teaching anyone, because you truly handle people's opposing views in a terrible way, and I can't imagine, even if you were to teach younger skaters, the arguments between you and the parents who may not bow down on everything you say. Let's not even get started on adult skaters, why would you torture them (and yourself, apparently) and take their money if this is what you think of them? You're not going to change adult skating so it fits your view of it. This isn't mean to be offensive to you but seriously, do everyone a favor and go do some growing up before trying to teach anyone anything. No one's even said anything bad about you. Not halfway as bad as what you said about them- and people here ARE competing at the competition you trashed and will be at, and now they have to look over their backs for a snickering ill-wisher. That's terrible. I don't get you. I guess I don't have to.

This is maybe where I'm ruffling feathers. I'm in Canada and there really isn't an adult social track. If you're serious about competing, you compete in the regular Starskate categories with the kids. It's definitely not about socializing, and the standards are the same as for the kids.

I don't know a lot of coaches that will let adults go out in that level of competition without training them, and polishing the program to show the skater to the best light and pushing the skater to get the jumps and reworking the basics if they're not properly learned. So when we see a skater who is having a good time but hopelessly over her head, we wonder what kind of coach she has. This is the message I have for gregyoshi, that if you're coaching adults, although the adult might be telling you what to do, and paying you for the privilege, the rest of the coaching community is watching.

Gregyoshi, obviously you have never been to an Adult Nationals. The way the adults root each other on is so uplifting.

It was my first. I was going to compete but did not complete my test for qualifications in Bronze due to a nasty bout with gallstones. I volunteered instead and I had an absolute blast cheering on adult skaters i already knew and making new friends.

__________________
Keeping School Figures Alive!!

I earned a couple of medals this summer in this fashion. I tell people that I won the silver, then when they oohh and aahh, I make it very clear that there were only two of us.

Who really cares how many completed? The point is that I completed. Placement isn't as important to me as doing it. It's proving to me that I can do it.

And, my coach put a half lutz in my program. I couldn't do one then--it was on the inside edge. She wanted me to learn the steps. Last month, we started working on the outside edge. If I hadn't been fairly comfortable with what I had already learned, I'd've (!) really struggled to learn it. As it was, it felt weird, but I picked it up fairly quickly. No, it's not as nice as MK or SC, but it's a lutz, of a fashion.

I skate pre-bronze (untested) I am working on jumps, spins, and edgework. I try to get in one moves session each week, but since I have to work for a living, it's hard to get in more than 3-4 hours each week, so I will progress slowly. It's better than sitting on my couch and getting older.

I don't think there is an adult 'social' track anywhere is there? I know America has an adult testing track but how that compares to the kids track beyond having fewer levels and elements in a different order I dont' know.

Here in the UK we take exactly the same tests as the kids to the same standards and compete at the appropriate level. We are lucky to have a number of adult only comps which are generally much more fun to compete and be involved in than the kids comps (I have two kids who have competed at national level). Sometimes there is no choice but to compete with higher levels when numbers are small but I personally find competing helps me to achieve my goals in skating and is a personal achievement for someone who has always been quite shy to face my fears and get out there and perform. You may think my performance is embarrassing but for me it is a personal triumph when I skate well in competition no matter where I place. This is something I don't think any child skater can ever fully understand but we do appreciate it when you try.

As an adult one has the freedom to choose whether to be deadly serious and competitive in training and competitions or to enjoy also the social side - which does not necessarily make one less competitive. Yes there are adults out there who have delusions of their capabilities but probably no more or less so than the skatemom who thinks her kid is going to the next Olympics when you can see they are struggling with the basics. Some may also choose to go to competitions against their coaches advice. I personally wouldn't but as an adult you are responsible for yourself.

__________________
'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

In the words of my coach.........I should apply for frequent flier points. 9 times out of 10 it travels to Mars and back. I can easily center a forward sit or camel........but not a scratch. At this stage of the game, I no longer feel it's important. I don't have a forward scratch in my program, and really don't see the need for one. Heck, I may never have a program again. Time will tell with that one. I'm definitely an oddball. I LOVE a back scratch.

I actually tried a back layback because the forward one was making me too dizzy. I've never had a dizzy problem on the back one. I've no clue what the difference is and why one makes me sick and the other one doesn't. I won't be doing laybacks anymore anyhow. My recent back surgery ended that one. I've pretty much retired to playing around with freestyle. I'm now learning dance (which is not playing around).

I never said I was working at any competition. Are you bananas? I said I support those adults I know who compete. Who the heck are you talking about?

READ the posts before you go bashing people. You must be confused.

This is pathetic. Lets all gang up on the grego now. Does this make you feel good? You guys are the ones with the problems. I haven't said half the garbage you're claiming and you're all smacking me because I'm young. What was I thinking ever coming here and trying to talk to a bunch of weekend, middle aged athletes.

I'm 24.

Indeed I think faded stardust may have got you confused with hankykeely over the competitions helping issue. However I wonder what your excuse is for such a mean-spirited, charmless and 'offensive to every adult skater' post, when the majority of us here have actually tried to answer your orignal and further questions honestly and helpfully.

__________________
'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

fadedstardust accidentally confused your posts with hankykeely's post--or, she simply forgot to change the name when she began talking about that post. It's obvious that it doesn't pertain to you, and if you had bothered to read the thread, you'd probably have figured that out.

Gee...you are beginning to sound awfully familiar to me. Have we met before? Four or five times, perhaps? You're starting to sound awfully like a troll I used to know. Especially with the difference between

and

It's obvious that you have no respect for adult skaters, and have no desire to gain any. That first post was by a troll in sheep's clothing.

__________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson

www.signingtime.com ~sign language fun for all!

No no, it was my mistake- I apologize for getting you confused, Gregyoshi. I would like to know Hankkeely's answer to why he/she is working Halloween classic, though. And it doesn't make the stuff you (greg) said about adults when you're claiming you just want to learn for later coaching purposes any better, either.

Meanwhile, I asked how old you were and you didn't answer, but I just turned 19, and while that may be getting old for a Novice (I'm taking the year off comp and moving up sometime in the coming months, though) I'm not middle aged. I guess I'm not the only one who isn't paying attention. I say we get back to constructive conversation. Or start one, I'm not sure anything's been all that constructive. So, I have a question: if you are genuinely trying to learn about adult skating so you can coach in that department later, then why aren't you listening/accepting anything they say? You wanted to learn about adult skating, people are answering you with their thoughts and motives, and all you really ought to be doing is taking it in (maybe question further if you need to, but respectfully) and weighing out whether or not it sounds like something you want to do. If it doesn't, move on. There's plenty of young kids you could coach, once you lose the 'tude and quick temper. I'm not "ganging up" on you, I'm discussing, because it's been a boringgggg end of the week and you brought up an interesting thread. So calm down! You seem so angry for just no reason.

I just turned 37. I have one more silver dance to go, standard track, & am ready to test my juvenile moves, having had a total of ONE lesson on them. My coach is a former Olympian & world medalist, and I will dare to say that I could skate circles around you. I've never posted like this before, but you crossed a line here. How dare you.

Middle aged athlete?

Yup. At 58 I am damn proud of it.

Probably could skate circles around you as well, but probably not as fast, or graceful as Backspin

__________________
Keeping School Figures Alive!!

gregyoshi,

You might surpass me skating but I surpass you in attitude. As do most of my fellow adult skaters here. AND, for your information this old fart skater did land her double loop on one foot recently. Being an adult skater doesn't make me uncapable. Maybe you should think about your opinion or at the least your attitude.

__________________
"I truly believe, when God created skating, he patted himself on the back."