In June, my daughter will be competing in her 1st competition. She will be competing at the basic skills level. She's passed Basic 7 and is now in Basic 8. Her coach was trying to decide what level to place her in and will put her in Basic 6. She was going to put her in Basic 5, but since she passed 7, she said she will have to put her in Basic 6. By the time the competition comes, she will have completed Basic 8. From what she said, a competitors level can only be dropped 2 down from their last passed level. So, if dd doesn't pass 8, she might be able to compete at the Basic 5 level. If she does pass 8, then she will need to compete at the Basic 6 level, right?

I only ask this because I was talking to another mom who's daughter will also be competing at the same competition in June. She mentioned that her daughter(who is currently in Freestyle 3) might be competing at the Basic 6 level. I then told her that was the level my dd was likely going to compete at and I told her what our coach had told us. She seemed surprised and said that she will have to ask her dd's coach what level she plans to have her compete at. She said that there have not been any changes made to her routine yet, so she was assuming she was going to stay in the same level.

My daughter's best friend was in her 1st competition in October and at the time was likely in Fresstyle 3 or 4(she passed Freestyle 6 in February) and skated in the basic skills levels. She has the same coach as the other skater I mentioned above. I guess I am curious if this is a common thing or not? Will my daughter be skating against a lot of kids who are being dropped more then 2 levels? Is this common? I'm certainly not intending on causing any waves, I'm just curious how this all works. I'm just trying to learn about how competitions work and since this is our first one, I know nothing. LOL!

Thanks!

It's a surprise to me that they can drop down at all. The last time any of my students participated in our (USFS) basic skills competition, the level you've passed is the level you must compete. So I have no idea of how to answer your question, other to say that you'll run into people competing at lower levels than you'd think they should all the time---it's called sandbagging, and it is fairly common. Have they changed the rules about which level you can enter?

From page 6 of the USFS Basic Skills Competition Manual:

Eligibility will be based on skill level as of closing date of entries. All SNOWPLOW SAM
and BASIC SKILLS SKATERS THROUGH BASIC 8 must skate at highest level passed
and NO official U.S. Figure Skating tests may have been passed including MIF or
individual dances.
For the Free skate 1-6, Test Track and Well Balanced levels, eligibility will be based only
upon highest free skate test level passed (moves in the field test level will not determine
skater’s competitive level). Skaters may skate at highest level passed OR one level higher

BUT not both levels in the same event during the same competition.

From page 2 of the same manual:

It is very important to the success of the competition that skaters are placed in the correct
divisions. If, for whatever reason, the Local Organizing Committee discovers that a skater
has been placed in a category that is below their class level, the Chairman and Referee will
have the option to move the skater into the proper division, even if this has to be done the
day of the competition. This will ensure that every event is as fair as possible to the

competitors.

Thanks, those are the rules I remember. Maybe isakswings' isn't an official USFS competition, so they kind of made up their own rules??

isakswings, have you yourself read through the registration packet to see what it says about what level a skater may compete?

then, there's the 'strategy' whereby a skater 'passes' a level and moves on to working on the more complicated material, but, the coach doesn't advise the club/award the badge until after the qualification date for the competition. Again, sandbagging ... and, unfortunately, a reality in this sport.

Unfortunately, the reality also creeps into the competitive track at the younger stages too! How many pre-preliminary skaters have you seen who win competitions regularly and yet never seem to try any freeskate tests which would force them to move up! We have some at our club that compete at the lowest level possible, and yet the skater can do axels and double jumps......rational being that they are not ready to move up yet....

I say there needs to be an independent qualification for skaters - a divisioning of sorts - whereby all skaters are challenged by an outside coach or judge - to do the elements.....and a division given for that competition. Few kids will deliberately screw up trying the axel or flip jump etc. unless their coach has told them otherwise...peer pressure will energize them to do well! Same with forward crosscuts, etc.

In utopia, a real basic skater could compete against a skater with like skills (bad crosscuts, slow spins, low spiral etc. -- and be rewarded for trying) without being humiliated by competing against skaters who are much stronger and advanced.

Oh well -

That's where you have to read competition announcements very carefully - and if you're writing them, word them carefully. For qualifying competitions, if you test up a level after the closing date for the competition but before the actual competition takes place, you are disqualified. In my opinion, that should always be the case. Age requirements, however, are limited to the closing date - if your birthday occurs between the closing date and the competition, that's not a problem.

It does get a little murky, though, whatever you do. I have a little private student, who is not doing our upcoming Basic Skills competition (she's very young, not jumping at the bit to compete, and her parents and I agree that there's plenty of time before we have to worry about competing). If she were entering, it would have to be at least at Basic 2, because she passed that level before she started working with me. We're working mostly on Basic 3 elements in her lessons, and some Basic 4. Like many skaters, she's quite good at some things, and not so hot at others. There's one Basic 2 skill that still needs to be strengthened, and she can't possibly do the Basic 3 skill that builds on it. On the other hand, she does many Basic 3 elements well enough to pass them and so we're working ahead on the Basic 4 skills. If she were competing, I might keep her in Basic 2 because of that very weak element. I wouldn't consider that sandbagging, because she can't pass Basic 3 yet. People who see her practicing Basic 4 elements, though, might be upset and think we were deliberately holding her back. On the other hand, if all her other elements were strong, and she could do that one skill, even if badly (currently she can't do it at all), I'd probably put her in Basic 3 anyway.

Best to help your skater set their own goals, and try not to pay too much attention to what others are doing. You're going to see all kinds of stuff, and if you let it get to you too much, it'll take all the fun out of it. (I recognize, though, that you're just trying to understand how it works, not necessarily complain about anything.)

We just ran across something similiar with our synchro team. The ISI synchro level we skate in is "adult". All of our team has passed at least Gamma, with most ffinishing either ISI or USFSA basic skills levels (Delta or 8). A few were skaters as children and retain their skills at a higher level, but most of the team is probably about freestyle 1 level and started as adults. One of the teams we skated against, the minimum qualification to even audition for the team is passing USFSA Freestyle 4! For us "adult" is not a level, it's an age division. So for us first and second (there were two teams WAY above our skating ability even on the best day) were not even options.

BUT these sorts of competitions (ISI and USFS Basic Skills) are meant to be fun. We knew we couldn't win, but had a blast. And were very pleased about our 4th because we earned it. (We would have been more pleased if we actually skated our best, but it was an off day)

You can't control what other skaters can do or what division they decide to enter. You can only control your own skating (or in this case, your daughter can only control her skating). Talk to her ahead of time and prepare her for those who are competing below their ability level (now, in case anyone from the synchro team I discussed is reading this- they are not sandbaggers, they are competiting in the correct division, so I'm not pointing fingers. It's ISI who needs to divide by ability rather than age) and let her know that what she needs to do is skate the best SHE can skate, and have fun doing it. You can't worry about other people.

Besides- is a Freestyle skater really going to have fun skating a Basic 6 program? If she should actually be in freeskate, and not just have had pity passes (there are plenty of freestyle 1-2 kids who shouldn't be there!), then my guess is no, that skater probably would have been happier doing a program at her level!

If it really bothers you, talk to the competition director, but if the rule reads right, your daughter can't skate down either. But if it was me, I would just let it go.
If it really bothers you, talk to the program director

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I didn't answer this earlier because I was confused - I thought you were mixing-and-matching ISI Freestyle tests with USFSA Basic Skills. I'm assuming you were talking about all Basic Skills tests, correct me if I'm wrong.

That said, test levels don't always equal skating level for competitions. Test levels and standards also vary widely by skating program. My current rink is becoming more strict about testing standards, but I've had students in my groups who really struggle with multiple things from lower levels. I've also been in rinks (not here) where the instructors "skipped" elements. The glaring one is the Mazurka in Basic 8 - it's hard to teach, it's hard to do, and it's really hard to master. It makes the difference in a competition at Basic 8 level.

Some people get confused and think it's based on the group lesson you're registered in, but that's not the case. I've taught in rinks where Basic 7 - Freeskate 2 were combined into one group. While it looked like everyone was working on the same things, you could see the differences in skating skills.

Competition level should be based on the highest test fully PASSED and the test standards have to be consistent.
The USFSA has been working on this with their seminars and association with the PSA.

The introduction of the "Test Track" in competitions should help eliminate some of the sandbagging by leveling the playing field of elements in the levels beyond Basic Skills.

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I'm pretty sure it's an official USFSA competition, but I haven't seen the paperwork yet. Her coach said she read the packet information and what came with it and that is where she came up with her level. That's interesting, thanks! Edited to add: No, I have not read the actual packet yet. I will ask her coach about getting a packet, tomorrow.

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

She has earned all the badges through Basic 7. SO based on what you said, she should be competing at the basic 7 level? I think I want to see the packet for the competition! Maybe it is only one level down and I misunderstood since she said since she's passed 7 she'd have to skate in basic 6? But based on the rules you posted, she'd have to skate at 7. Now I'm confused!

Her coach definately is one to follow more to the rules, so I can't see her dropping her below where she is allowed. Hmmm...

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

What this is based on is the highest CLASS passed. At least that is how I am understanding it. For each class she has passed, she has earned a badge for that class. Now I really want to get my hands on a packet so I can look at it myself and see what the official rules are. I definately do not want to sandbag. Like I said, based upon what her coach told me, I don't think that is what it happening in our situation. She did not specifically say "2 levels down" that was my own assumption since she is currently in Basic 8 and she said she could compete at the basic 6 level, based on the rules she read.

Oh and to pass classes at our rink, the children really do have to have the ability to actually do each element in order to move on. As far as how WELL the technique is done, I can't comment on that one. My daughter did not pass basic 1 because her stops and swizzles were weak. Basic 5, she had to work on back crossovers. That was no surprise to me since I know my daughter still struggles with back crossovers. The ability is there but she has to work on those more then say, spirals and lunges(which she does pretty well). Anyway... when I have the packet in my hand I will have to see what it says. Thanks!

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Absolutely. I'm not trying to complain at all. Honestly, I think the coach of the 2 girls I mentioned is not intentionally trying to "sandbag". I know both sets of parents too and they definately are not pushy parents or expect their dd's to always win. KWIM?

I just find it interesting. Like I said, I need to get my hands on a packet. My dd's coach is pretty good about sticking to rules so I can't imagine her dropping my daughter down any lower then she is allowed to drop her. My daughter won't be in LTS over the summer but will continue to take lessons from her coach. The next competition we will enter after the June comp, won't be until October. She'll likely begin LTS class again in the fall unless we decide to stop LTS classes and just continue with only private lessons.

Thanks for your feedback!

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

I'm not going to talk to the director. It doesn't really bother me. I'm just trying to learn how this all works. As far as I understand, based on the rules her coach read in the packet, my daughter will be skating at the lowest level allowed for the classes she has passed. Maybe the rules for this competition are written so a skater can skate down but only 1-2 levels below? I don't know. Once I have the packet, I will have to post the information I find. LOL!

As for the other girls, they are definately at their freestyle levels. Their coach is very particular and will not let them pass unless they can do the elements in their level. That's why I was surprised that the one little girl might be competing at the same level as my daughter. She's definately more advanced then my dd is. I'm not THAT worried about it. We are doing this because dd wants to. I'm certainly not going to make waves and get upset about this. It's not worth it to do anything like that. I was more or less curious how this all works. Thanks so much for your feedback!

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Most competition packets are online these days - check the website or the USFSA Events calendar.

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I guess that is my worry. This is her first competition. I don't want her to feel like she didn't skate well just because there might be others above her level competing with her. I think we will do what we wlays do and tell her to do her best and not to worry about anyone else. Afterall, having the guts to try and compete at all is pretty good, IMO! We'll reward her whether she places well or not. In the end, it will be OK.

Thanks!

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Thanks! I know where the competition is and what month it is, but not the exact date. I'll see if I can find it.

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Try their website first, they usually put the dates and the links on their figure skating page. If it's club-sponsored, you have to go to the club site; the rinks don't always have the links.

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I found it on the USFSA site, but there is not a packet there to review, so I will check the club site. It is a USFSA competition tho.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/event...s.asp?id=41193

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

I think every club takes sanctions seriously these days, if only for insurance purposes.

The packets are usually on the club/rink site; the USFSA event calendar can help you find their website.

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I looked. I couldn't find a packet on their site. I did find basic information for parents on required elements for each level though. She couldn't do the 7/8 level(which is Freeskate D?) because one of the required elements is a begining scratch spin. She can't do that yet! This will be interesting. Now I REALLY want to get my hands on a packet! LOL

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

http://www.saltlakefigureskating.com...tefest2008.pdf

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THANK YOU!!

Hmmm... She should be skating in Basic 7 then. Ok... we'll do what we have to do. EEK. :-)

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

I just wanted to add that I'm fairly new to this competition stuff. What I have seen parents do is request that they not be tested in the skating classes when a competition is coming up so that they don't pass up into the next level.

You just have to tell yourself to not delve into what other parents do and only worry about your own kid. There was a girl in my daughter's first competition who seemed clearly above the rest of the kids in the level, and she easily took first place. But who knows, maybe she couldn't do one element needed to pass up another level? Mostly, there's really nothing you can do about this stuff except for shrug it off and make sure your child feels appreciated by you for doing his/her best.

There also could be legit reasons for the gap. My daughter is competing at FS 1 and she's been in FS 2 classes for a while now. In FS 1 she'll have to do a 2-foot spin which she finds trickier than a 1-foot spin. Meanwhile, in her classes they're not only working on that 1-foot spin all the time, they're learning backspins and easing into a change-foot spin because that's in the next level up. So today when my daughter was practicing her FS1 routine, she kept forgetting and doing a 1-foot spin instead of a 2-foot spin. Someone observing might see she was performing an element above her level and wonder about sandbagging, but it's really that she's been working like mad on those spins for her class. She hasn't actually passed out of FS 2 (darn dance step).

Part of whether a "sandbagging" is perceived is based on the reputation of the coach. There are some coaches who do it so often and regularly that EVERY skater is tainted, and the assumption is made that it is occurring. There are other coaches who have a reputation precisely the opposite, so, their skaters are given the benefit of the doubt.

My two cents on this is: part of what we look for in our coach is modelling excellent, ethical behaviour and good sportsmanship. She does not sandbag (she also never criticizes another coach for doing so either, as that would be inappropriate and unprofessional). As a result, our kids have a good role model. Sure, it's hard sometimes to "suck it up" when other parents with coaches who are less - ethical - brag about the brilliance of their coach and their skater based on the medal haul ... and openly admit to the sandbagging. However, I would prefer to see my guys work with a coach that I respect, and who teaches good values. BTW: our coach is widely-respected throughout our region, and has skaters and their parents clamoring to work for her in part because of her ability to teach skating AND lifeskills like integrity.

(listening quietly at competitions and at rinks can give you some insight into what coaches have the respect of their colleagues, and it's rarely the ones who advocate sandbagging).