Hey everyone

So I recently started taking lessons from an EXTREMELY honest dance coach...

I thought I was quite good at my dance...but now I'm realizing how many things are "not so good" in it...

He points out EVERYTHING...which is kind of depressing...haha

Anyone else ever have to deal with this? I guess its good that he points out a lot...it will help me improve...but it's somewhat self-esteem-crushing!! lol

I don't mind honest, as long as they can find something good, some improvement. I really do want to know the truth, but if I only heard how bad I was, I would get depressed. Honest coaches should be able to find some honest positives

j

my coach is like that and it can be really frustrating sometimes. you just have to be positive, accept the criticism, and remind yourself that you'd never learn anything if your coach just cheered you on all the time.

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hehehe-reminds me of the time when i thought i was good enough to test my first dance test, but our resident expert said they weren't anywere good enough. so I did not test them.

My current coach is honest but phrases it in a way that feelings are not hurt, which is really nice of her!!!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

My mother studied piano with a very famous teacher. She has told me he would always praise her playing, and then correct "one little thing". She realized after months of study that he had actually reworked just about everything she did, "one little thing" at a time. How much more constructive it was for him to do it that way, rather than telling her everything she was doing wrong all at once. I think a good skating coach should work in a similar fashion.

clarice, Your mom had a very wise teacher. I want my coach to be honest, how can I change what I don't know, but I don't want to hear everything I need to fix in one lesson. Many baby step is one big change over time. Baby steps seem possible one huge leap can seem impossible. I hate to hear compliments I don't deserve but one that I do is great.

teresa

My coach almost never hands out any praise. Ever. About once a year I get very very discouraged by that, & usually end up taking a lesson or two w/ another coach who is more encouraging. But I stay with him for several reasons, top of the list is that he has transformed my skating & I've done very well under his teaching. It isn't his style to praise, and while I do need it now & then, I've learned to look elsewhere for it. He's not going to change. I have learned how to handle that--or work around it I guess. But I think he's a great coach & don't intend to switch.

On the other hand, when I'm teaching, I tend to be more of a "that's not bad, here's what I liked, & here's one small thing to change" kind of coach myself.

Different teaching styles work for different people--you have to find (or create) a situation that works well for you.

Some of my coach's more infamous sayings:

"I no come here compliment you."

"You no paying me tell you already can doing."

"Each correction is gift. No correction mean you in really trouble."

"I no want you trying. I want you doing."

His idea of a compliment:

"I never thinking you this can do."

"When you first start I thinking I call 911."

"You looking like champion. For your age and weight."

And if you've really impressed him:
"Not bad."

Did I mention he's of the tough love russian school?

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3turn
The Great Skate Experiment

LOL, that is very funny. I do like the part about "no correction mean you really in trouble".

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Blog: http://chowskates.blogspot.com

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My coach's highest praise appears to be "Check your arms and shoulders!" That way you know you're doing your feet right, at least....

Actually, he once told me something was "textbook!" I practically burst into tears.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

LOL.

Funniest comment I've ever heard from a Russian coach;

"Excellent! ...... still no good".

Doubletoe: I LOL at your coaches comments. That is too cute!

My primary coach is not very nurturing other to say...you are doing well....FOR AN ADULT. Egads.

My new secondary coach (soon to be primary) is awesome. She always starts with ...I really liked your first try better and then will immediately have suggestions for corrections or give exercises that will help in the future.

If I really blow something..even the the first time...she says...I really liked your smile! giggle. And then go into the corrections or exercises and drills to correct.

For me, honest feedback is so much more effective than someone blowing sunshine up me bum. Seriously. I'm not one who needs parise to motivate -- I generally DO know what I'm doing well and what I'm not doing well. Yes, I may improve at a snail's pace, but I'm OK with that -- fear hold me back, not praise/criticism/feedback. I'm very self-motivated and have a lot of body awareness, so I'm often MORE critical of myself than my coach -- and not in a bad self-esteem way. I spend most of my lessons grinning like a fool, LOL!

However, I also understand that this approach is not good for every student (I have my degree in secondary ed). I do know that everyone's needs are different.

LOLOLOL!! Mine's Russian too, & the "not bad" is also my highest compliment to aspire to.

I read in one of my PSA magazines an article about this very topic. I can't remember everything as it was quite a while ago, but I do recall that for every negative thing you say, you should balance it out with something positive. I believe the statistic said that for every negative comment, a skater needs to hear 6 positive comments in order to keep up their self-esteem.

I do remember that the article was written by someone from the Positive Coaching Alliance (PCA), which is a great resource for skaters and coaches (of all sports) alike. I really agree with a lot of the philosophy of this organization and thought I'd share the URL for their Web site for anyone who may be interested.

Positive Coaching Alliance (PCA):
http://www.positivecoach.org/default.aspx

My old dance coach never said anything positive about my skating. Ever. He used to have to limit himself to max 3 corrections at a time and it was hard for him to decide which were the 3 things most in need of correction.

The best I usually ever got was 'ok'. I think I sometimes got a comment of 'good' which was usually quickly changed to 'not good but better - still could be more'.

Current coaches are more positive but are very harsh. They will try to find something that was good but they tell me the truth and are tough. I prefer that - I don't want to be told something is good when it isn't.

My favourite comments are
'Is there a particular reason why you are doing xyz?'
'Your problem is you skate like an old person'
'You look like you are scared to stand on one foot'
'You aren't very good at the skating in between parts, are you?'
'Enough. You will have to practice that' (which usually means she can't bear to watch it and isn't wasting anymore time on it today)

I think it depends on the skater. If my coach gave me 6 positive comments for every negative one, I don't think I'd ever get anything done. I NEED negative feedback -- usually when I complain about a negative remark my coach has made, she responds with "well, would you rather I lied and told you it was great?" I wouldn't. But because she's very critical, when she does give me a positive remark (most recently -- "you actually have a pretty decent one foot spin"...I'm a senior level skater!) it means much, much more.

The big thing for me is how it's said. I had a previous coach who, when giving you a negative remark, really directed it at the skater rather than the skating. My newer coach actually gives far more negative remarks, but, because they're directly only at the skating or move in question and never at the skater, they don't, and shouldn't, affect your self-esteem.

Of course, this might not hold true for everyone, particularly young children. I've been with my coach since I was quite young, though, and it's never been a problem, so I don't think that all children necessarily need more positive than negative feedback.

I don't need SIX positive statements but because I have such a slow learning curve, it's easy to get discouraged and I do need to know if there is improvement. But I'm happy with one "this was good" and one "now let's work on this"

Both my coaches are very positive but one of the funniest things my coach ever said to me was when I was not taking time to set up my waltz jump after a backward spiral and she said very exasperated "YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO DO A WALTZ JUMP RIGHT OUT OF A SPIRAL!" I just laughed.

Someday I am going to do a waltz jump right out of a back spiral though...

k

Right. I agree with those of you who don't feel you need 6 positive remarks along with 1 negative one. When coaching, I try to remain as positive with my students as possible, but I'm not going to praise them endlessly for poor skating technique or a lack of motivation. I think that you can correct and critique tactfully, which makes the difference between everything-being-wonderful and everything-being-terrible messages.

The coach I'm working with this summer told me I don't know how to do 3-turns. Maybe that's why passing novice moves was so hard...! But I really like working with him, very different from my other coach, and much, much pickier and more technical.

I wanted to do a cherry flip out of a back spiral one year, and wasn't allowed - not because my cherry (toe loop) was so awful but because my back spiral was. "The judges won't know what you are trying to do!" But last year, I was allowed to do it, which I took as proof positive I had improved on that element. I wasn't allowed to attempt a change-foot spin, though, as "the judges won't know what you're trying to do", so had to put in my bi-directional, which I hate!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Since I have a background in corporate training, I cringe when I hear coaches say stuff like "That was awful! I said to keep the free leg in front!" And they do, loudly enough for all to hear. Everyone laughs it off, but I still don't like that approach.

So, I keep my comments positive. I can usually remember the skater's level of achievement and when I see them push themselves, I encourage it through feedback. Yeah, they're not doing it as well as I'd like, but they're trying and isn't that what we want in the end?

If I ask a student to keep the free leg in front and s/he doesn't, I'll suggest that they "try it again and keep the free leg more in front so I can see it from here."

When I see them getting discouraged, I point out what they're doing right and do a simple drill to help them feel the correct muscle usage. Then, they have to try three more times, which I usually turn into five tries when they're not paying attention. LOL

When they get too frustrated, I just give them a practice item and tell them to let it go until later, adding that they WILL get it. They always do get things in the long run, some students just take a little longer.

I will admit that I say "Gooood." a lot. In my case, it means the maneuver was recognizable. If I say "That was great!" you know you did it well.

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My first coach used to say "That was very good. Now do it again, and this time I'd like you to....." and proceed to give all the corrections.

I am quite convinced my current coach is Russian (although with his accent? I don't think so - he's pure London!), as he is very like a Russian coach. Mind you, his hero is Mishin, so....

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Nah.... I like honest coaches... but (here's the caveat) their comments has to be so funny that they know that I would kill them for the comment...when I stop laughing so hard!!!

The latest ones from secondary coach was

• "What the heck is your trainer doing with your flexibility!?!?! That's it!!!! Give me his number and I'll tell him HOW he should stretch you!!! He should be pulling the sockets out of your joint!!! " (Of course, I'm putting my money on her NOT calling him though. But just in case, he's been warned.... *ahem* )
• Re: my posture "Well, you no longer look like Melinda Doolittle, but you still look like Lurch (from Addams Family...)
• And when she gets me crackin' up, she makes these Daffy Duck noises. (Yes, I sometimes laugh a little like Daffy Duck...)

One of my favorite lines coming out of working on my recent program with primary coach were both reference to the "To Wong Foo" movie:

• "You have to skate this part like a Queen! Otherwise you're just a girl in a dress!" (To which I answer "What's wrong with being a girl in a dress??? " I didn't watch the movie at that point, so I didn't get the reference then.)
• "There are four rules to being a Queen. You're not even at Rule #1 yet!!!" (This lead me to get the DVD to the movie... so I know what the 4 rules of being a Queen is...)

Ummm... I don't *get* my primary coach though! I really AM a woman!!! Why would I want to pretend to be a drag queen here???? (i.e. man pretending to be a women) Too "Victor Victoria"-ish for me!

Anyway, the point of his comment is that I need to put more "sass" into the personality of my FS program. Oooookay... you want a software computer geek who's been taught all along to be mechnical and have "lack of emotion and personality" (other than the sarcasm) to put more personality into her program? Oooooohkay...

AND THAT, my friends, is how honest my coaches are!!! Can't believe I come back for more too, but hey I'm a better skater for it!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

My coach is very encouraging, but last week I asked her to get tougher with me - yes, it works and I am at a point in my skating where I am ready for that. For example, I gave her my DVD from the last competition to review. She discussed it with me this morning, and started out with a few good things that I have definitely improved on, but then gave me the unvarnished truth about the problems she saw. It's the first time she has been that tough, but I thanked her for it. Did it hurt my feelings - not really, because she is absolutely 100% right, and she really got through to me! It also showed me that she has faith in my ability to work hard and correct what needs to be corrected with her help. Will it happen overnight? No. Will it happen? Absolutely!

Have a wonderful weekend everyone!