I disagree, because of the same argument. Good MIF and dance skills don't always correspond to good FS skills. It's not out of the realm of possibility a Bronze FS will have Intermediate moves. Should they be skating against Emily Naperkoski and Alexandra Dunne-Bryant in Interp? NO WAY.

Isn't Gold the qualifier for Masters Interp? Becky and Julie were in Masters Interp and they don't have Intermediate FS.

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I'll list names if you want, it's no secret who was in the level. Jocelyn and Rochelle are working on Senior moves. Rachel is working on Junior. Who are the others?

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

No, you can't pass your Gold FS test without an Axel or at least a reasonable facsimile of a rotated one.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I had a feeling something like that was gonna happen with the number of lower level skaters dropping when the Pre-Bronze at AN petition actually happened. I also noticed that there were fellow skater friends who were competing a lot when I was struggling in Pre-Bronze that had either stopped competing or stopped skating altogether. I did not see as many newbie Pre-Bronze and Bronze skaters moving up and I did not see many Pre-Bronze skaters coming in to take up the lower FS spots at Skate SF. So I knew back then that there were problems with getting more lower level skaters out there to compete. By the time I made it to AN in 2007, I saw two groups of 19 skaters in Bronze III FS ladies QR instead of the 4 groups that I saw back around 2002-2003? And THIS YEAR!!?!?! Sheesh!!! 9 skaters in each Bronze ladies QR?!?!?! THAT is SAD!!!

I'm gonna keep an eye out on Skate SF this year to see who's competing. I know it won't be me b/c I'm taking a hiatus to get my Silver moves out of the way... and just to have SOME MONEY in the bank!!!

BTW: I am well aware from my competition experience post-Bronze FS that I need to be competitive that I need to have more higher level moves and even ice dance background to be competitive at Bronze or Silver! I *get* it! It's exactly why I want to take a hiatus from competing to work on those things. (Well, that and I want to save up for new purple skates! ) I know I'll never get around to getting those things if I keep getting distracted b/c I have to work on a program or get ready to compete.

LMAO!!! (Hey! What can I say? I'm married to a Trekkie -- or is it Trekker now? )

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

But if that same Bronze FS skater has also passed the Rocker Foxtrot, for example, they would be forced into Masters interp.

I meant Intermediate FS was the qualifier to Masters freestyle events - Championship Masters Int/Nov, Masters Novice, etc.

Masters interp requirements are meeting the standards for Gold FS OR passing one Silver dance. If a single silver dance (which is arguably easier than many high moves tests) forces a skaters into Masters interp, why don't high moves tests? Maybe it should be Novice MIF?

I think the rules regarding levels for Adult events are fair and working in the broadest sense, maybe with a few tweaks needed.

Rules make the sport fair, but part of the nature of a sport is that it's not unfair for someone to be skating at a higher level than you. Subdividing AN into too many groups to ensure that someone with only Bronze Moves and FS isn't competing against someone who passed Juvenile or Intermediate Moves would just spoil the whole concept of a broad and large adult event.

I say this as someone who struggled to pass Silver Moves and will probably be outclassed at that competitive level by skaters with higher moves tests, along with better jumps and spins. I'm ok with that. It is a competition.

I agree with passing Intermediate MIF being a qualifyer for Masters Interp. A skater with Intermediate moves can SKATE at a Masters Interp level and that's what interp is about - skating skills. Then again, you do have Regional/state to state differences in what the passing standards are.

Glad I could provide a moment of humor on this for you, Stormy. It IS true that some judges have passed the Gold FS test with a two-footed or cheated Axel.

Lots to plow through...

FYI, you only need to pass one pre-gold to do the current Gold solo dance level.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Story.asp?id=42986

As a judge and skater, I do not agree with that at all. In 6.0 it's the complete package. Some judges may focus on jumps, some may focus on spins, others may focus on basic skating. But it's a generalization to say jumps are most important. All programs are mainly composed of jumps, because that is what the WBP requirements call for, but if you can't spin and you can't skate on true edges, you're not going to fare that well. Hey, you can take me for an example -- I placed second in Championship Masters Int/Nov at sectionals, which was 6.0, and I didn't have one double jump in my program; everyone else did. So if jumps were the most important, I wouldn't have been up there!

See, I think that's awesome. Good for you!

Word.

I know you said you're exaggerating, but none of this is true and it would be better if such speculation wasn't disseminated on a public forum.

The reason there are dance tests applied to Interp at all is so that dancers who don't free skate can participate without having to take any FS tests. And you can't lump all dancers into the same group (how would it look of Julie Keith or Mike Ricigliano was in Adult Interp and not Masters?), so that's why there's a cutoff between Adult and Masters, and one Silver is half-way to Gold -- that's the only reason.

Standard track allows a Pre-Pre kid to test all the way up to Senior MIF, and they don't make that kid compete in Intermediate artistic. Rather, they encourage that kid to take their MIF as far as they can go so that they better their basic skating. That is one of the Adult Skating Committee's goals as well, so the last thing we want to do is discourage anyone from improving their basic skating.

THANK YOU!

Save for the part about the downfall of adult skating and life on Earth, I was only summarizing what was said during the debate here on this "public forum" about 3 years ago, when the petition to add Pre-Bronze to AN was discussed. If someone has more time than me, they can search through the archives and read that thread (I think it ended up being about 10 pages long).

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Thanks for clarifying.

The ironoic part is I passed Juvenile a year and a half ago, the judges knew me and knew I was just taking the test to have it It was a cheated axel and they mercy passed it. I've failed Gold twice with the same cheated axel, but now have to skate Gold anyways because of my Juvenile test. But it does just push me to improve my skating and be a Gold skater.

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Can I please see the "results" of your research?

Rochelle passed senior. She is the ONLY one with her senior moves test. For the record, she also does not have a clean axel, but is trying to get it ASAP to move up to gold for next year.
I *think* Danielle is working on novice, I thought she mentioned testing soon when we were talking in the locker room.
Kim is working on Intermediate.
Brandy has silver, dont' know if she passed her gold (she tried to move up to gold but failed one of the tests, not sure if it was her moves or free).
I have novice, aiming to test junior by fall.
Jocelyn is working on senior.
I think Inna is working on Intermediate.

Not sure about the rest. But from the top to the bottom of the placements, there are girls with higher moves levels, and girls only one higher.

Some of us dance--Jocelyn and I are on pre-golds, Rochelle on pre-silvers, Carolyn on pre-bronze or bronze (not sure she did compete bronze solo though).

You really can't limit moves tests with regard to freestyle...I know those of us who have skated our whole lives but have done little or no freestyle are few and far between. But could you imagine if moves were limited to, say, one level above freestyle level? That meant I'd have to come in an masters intermediate last year when I started freestyle just months before ANs. I, quite frankly, barely passed my bronze free to make it to AN for 08 because I could NOT do a back scratch, they let me slide with a RBO triple twizzle that didn't travel much because I was a strong skater. I had JUST gotten my lutz before ANs, and it wasn't even good, neither was my camel-sit that I had just learned. There was no way I could have even done silver at my first ANs in terms of testing--I only sort of had a camel spin (and failed my silver MIF when I tested right after ANs because of that). After a year of hard work I'm catching the freestyle up to my moves/dance levels, but there is still no way I'm ready for gold yet, let alone intermediate (no axel, iffy flying camel because my back camel is very shaky still). I'm just getting over the fish out of water "holy crap where are my teammates" feeling when I compete freestyle.
Basically by saying there need to be limits to make it easier for the people on the lower end of levels to be more competitive, you're making it harder for the people who are competitive at their current levels to stay competitive. We're adults. We know when to move up. All of the top 4 from Bronze I in 08 moved up to Silver for 09 (with the exception of Jen, who was off the ice for various reasons and she did not compete). Out of the silver I podium this year, I know 3 of the top 4 will be moving up or at least trying to. Again though, silver is a place where you can get stuck (no axel, no gold test). (Really though, is the person on here complaining about how good our group was someone who was even in our group? I know most of these girls and I will say that we LIKED having it be a very strong, competitive group.)

For the record though, Emily is not really a freestyle skater. She did about 15 years of synchro just at the senior level alone, competed at worlds twice, has her gold dance test and senior moves. She quit freestyle as a kid (no clue what level FS she was on) but she's had to spin in synchro programs. She does coach freestyle, and to a skater whose skating skills are just that good, bringing back a few single jumps is nothing.

This is what happened to me at my first AN in '08. Bronze free, had two silver dances. I did NOT look like a masters skater, lack of freestyle skills in comparison aside, my nerves got to my basic skating skills and finished dead last. This year I'm proud to say I actually held my own against those girls, my entire group was strong and marks were all over.

I think making intermediate and above moves do masters interp is fine. Or even novice moves and above. If you have to do masters because you passed one silver dance, you should have to do it because you have intermediate + moves, too. I really don't see a reason why someone like Rochelle shouldn't have been competing masters interp this year rather than adult when she obviously would have fit in fine with the Alex/Emily/Amber/Julie/Rachel/Becky show (i.e. Masters I). (Not complaining about Rochelle being in adult by any means, those are the rules, but just using someone like her as an example).

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Warning History Lesson Ahead:

Regarding the dwindling numbers, I can say almost all of the people who were in Silver 2 and 3 with me back in the first five years ol AN were people who had started skating (as in Basic Skills level skating) after the age of 25. Almost all of them have either quit skating completely, moved to ISI, or have quit going to Adult Nationals.

Why?

Well, one reason is that the Adult Tests we passed back in the early 90's bear NO resemblence to the current tests. The Silver Test that I passed in 1992 (at age 40 and passed with flying colors, I might add and way over the minimum passing mark ) would not pass Bronze now. Thanks to age and arthritis and injury, my skating level hasn't improved a whole lot and I'm struggling to hang onto what skills I have.

But back in the Beginning, I was middle of the pack and the fact that I didn't have a lutz didn't matter much because 90% of the women in my age group who'd started as adults didn't either. In fact that was pretty much the tip-off as the years went by: if someone in Silver 3 showed up with a good clean solid lutz, they'd probably started skating before the age of 25.

And then the rules changed. Suddenly axels were not only allowed but encouraged and people who had medalled in Silver 2 and 3 at Nationals were barely making it out qualifying rounds. They're skating skills hadn't changed, but their competition had. With axels allowed at Silver, the people who would have tested up to Gold as soon as they had one now had no reason to test up. And with the new tests added in, more of the Bronzes looked at the axels and lutz-loop-loop combos in Silver and said "Nope, I'm staying Bronze." The incentive to move up was gone, espcially for the older folks.

And after a few years, people forgot that there had been an earlier set of tests that people had passed and they just assumed that everyone in a group had passed the same Silver or Bronze test. I started to hear whispers of "How did she get into Silver? She can't even do a loop!" We;;l that's because when she took the Silver test, she didn't need a loop." And one by one the people I'd been skating with for more than a decade began to drop away with the idea that they were no long "good enough" to be in Silver.

As for what to do, I've given it a lot of though. While splitting groups by test date would be nice, I can't see USFS taking on that administration. What I think I'd like to see is giving those adults who tested under the old standard (any of the old standards) given a chance to be "reclassified" if they choose to. So those of us who passed Silver back in 1990-1996 might be able to drop back to Bronze. I can hear the howls of protest from the Bronzes, though, so it probably won't fly.

Or maybe the ISU Adult categories would work: they don't use test level at all, just list the number and type of elements that are allowed at each level. That doesn't always work either; every year there seems to be an obvious sandbagger or two to throw things off but at least you know going in pretty much what's going to be done on each level.

I don't know. But it's pretty obvious that as the levels of difficulty have risen at AN, the number of participants have declined (take out the number of starts for the solo dance events this year and compare to previous years). I think it would behoone the Adult Committe to ask why.

And to listen to the answers.

Bluemoon
You make a few good points but please clarify something: in 1992, you took an easier Silver test at 40 yrs of age. I think most of the discussion has been about younger age groups. Has the competition in your age group radically changed? Has there been an influx of skaters in your age bracket/silver level with significantly higher skills? I've been skating almost 15 years and I recall axels being put out in Silver even back in the beginning. If your competition has or acquired higher technical skills, where did they come from?

This has been excellent, and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. I dont think classifying by test date is a good idea, but I'm not opposed to the idea of "reclassifying" people who tested under older and different standards. I'll bring up this idea. It redistributes and evens out the playing field. Blue, do you think this will being back those who stopped skating, or gone to ISI? Is this the goal, to bring back those who stopped? To up the numbers again at AN?

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I don't see why the influx of younger, former kid skaters is a bad thing? With the growth of collegiate skating opportunities, it is nothing but inevitable that we will see an increase in strong skaters in class I at all levels. Whether you started skating as a toddler, child or teenager, there is no reason to quit skating any more once you go off to college, because regardless of what level a skater is, they can compete intercollegiate conference. If they have a synchro team at their school and make it, they can participate in that. Increased participation in college skating leads to increased participation in adult skating. It's the way we're heading and it's a good thing.

I just don't get why a higher standard in class I seems to get some resentment from people in the older age classes. They aren't competing agaisnt us (unless at a smaller competition where age classes aren't split).

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Blue moon - exactly! Most of the people I started with have stopped competing, and those who remain and were competitive are no longer. The influx of the aging kid skaters with skills far beyond the test level into our age groups has been very frustrating.
I competed in silver and grew tired of the same situation year after year. I think it's a good idea to look at the test levels and qualify for your level based on your real test level, and not what it has morphed into. This is exactly what has happened in pairs. Basically I believe that you have to decide early on if you're interested in testing for competing or testing for testing.
I believe I took the fs tests before the changes - the silver may have been after - not sure, but I've no interest in even working on any higher fs or pair tests because of this mess. If I had the option of competing at a lower fs level, I'm not sure I would, because I medaled in bronze. I don't know if it would be fair to the new adult bronze skaters - the returning kids yes, but not the adults.

Rachel - we at higher age classes are not oppose to the influx of kid skaters if they enter at the appropriate level.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

But the numbers aren't increasing. They're declining. The Former-kids skaters are/have been members of USFS. Their staying in only maintains the status quo or slows the drain. It doesn't ADD bodies to the roster. Only new people taking up the sport ADDS bodies.

And the influx of kid-skaters in Class 1 is driving out the addition of NEW Adult Skaters who look at these kids and think: "No way can I match that! She's been skating for 20 years and I've been skating for five!"

Which means there are fewer people to age up to Class 2 and Class 3 and Class 4. So the kids skaters age up into those levels and the adults who were THERE are being driven out. That's the long view from someone whose been an adult skater from almost 30 years now.

There is no place currently in the structure as it exists now for me and for the people like me who started the whole Adult Skating phenomenon. And that's a shame.

Ok but isn't that our problem (speaking as an adult-onset skater for the most part) and not theirs? Ultimately this is a sport. I'm definitely anti-sandbagging, but it sounds like sandbagging is different that what you're saying here.

It seems that class 1 kid skaters who have passed their bronze test for the most part aren't going to want to stay in bronze, anyway. They're going to want to move to silver and higher.

I totally see what you're saying if there were different testing standards when you passed, and can see why people might then switch to ISI. But I also think it's a choice of: 1) rising to the skill challenge, or 2) being ok with not qualifying/not being as competitive as the newer skaters who have axels for silver. I think it's a choice of being ok with doing the best that you can do - and maybe that best hasn't been reached just yet.

I didn't go to AN this year mainly because I couldn't afford it - I was also uncomfortable with going without a flip or lutz for bronze, but if I'd had the cash I would have gone anyway. With full acceptance of the fact that I likely wouldn't have qualified. I figure, I beat myself up enough in skating, why make the additional comparisons? It's sports. I've got enough problems making my programs look artistic in any way, the last thing I need to do is resent a co-competitor for having more experience than I.

I don't think the influx of kid skaters in Class 1 is really likely to drive out new adults in the long run. There will be adults who will also want to see if they can beat the kid skaters . And some will.

__________________
Revised Official 2010 Goals checklist
Skate __
New boots __
(lowering the bar for 2010 as I haven't skated in a year)

Let's throw in a monkey wrench. What about the Canadian Adult skaters who passed tests in Canada in the last 10 years who come to compete in the USA. For example you're Adult Bronze categories say must have passed Adult Bronze or Preliminary FS test, but your tests are nothing like our tests over here.

Our Preliminary FS test here in Canada require us to do the following;

Elements in isolation
Bunny Hop
Waltz
Salchow
Loop
Flip
Toe Loop + Toe Loop combo
Forward Upright Spin (basic or corkscrew) 2 revs min
Forward Sitspin (90 degrees or less) 2 revs min
Forward Camel Spin 2 revs min
Upright Backspin 2 revs min (not sure on min)
Forward Left Spiral (choice of edge)
Forward Right Spiral (choice of edge)
Forward Perimeter Stroking with crosscuts on the ends
Backward Perimeter Stroking with crosscuts on the ends

Program Set to Music 1:30 min +/- 10 secs or 2 min +/- 10 secs
At least 3 jumps of a different nature min 1 full rotation
Min of 2 spins

Junior Bronze
Elements in Isolation
STROKING: 4 exercises (draw for direction then alternate):
• FORWARD OUTSIDE EDGE STROKING WITH CROSSCUTS ON END: The
skater skates forward outside edges down the length of the rink and forward crosscuts on the ends.
• FORWARD INSIDE EDGE STROKING WITH CROSSCUTS ON END: The
skater skates forward inside edges down the length of the rink and forward crosscuts on the ends.
• BACKWARD OUTSIDE EDGE STROKING WITH CROSSCUTS ON END:
The skater skates backward outside edges down the length of the rink and backward crosscuts on the ends.
• BACKWARD INSIDE EDGE STROKING WITH CROSSCUTS ON END: The
skater skates backward inside edges down the length of the rink and backward crosscuts on the ends.

JUMPS: Four jumps consisting of:
• Flip
• Lutz
• Axel or Walley
• Split

JUMP COMBINATIONS: Two jump combinations as follows:
• Salchow/Toe Loop
• Loop/Loop

SPINS: Three spins consisting of:
• One-Foot Upright Spin: Backward, corkscrew position, minimum of 3 rotations
• Flying Spin: Minimum of 3 rotations.
• Combination Spin: Minimum of 2 rotations in each position, minimum of 2 positions, optional change of foot.

FIELD MOVEMENTS: Backward Spiral (choice of edge)

PASSING REQUIREMENT: 12/14 elements satisfactory or better. All stroking
exercises must be satisfactory or better.

PART 2: PROGRAM (Rule 4304 (2) (b)): A free skating program to music:
(a) DURATION: 2.0 or 2.5 minutes (± 10 seconds).
(b) ELEMENTS: This program shall contain:
• JUMPS: A minimum of 4 different jumps of at least one rotation.
• SPINS: 2 different spins.
(c) PASSING REQUIREMENT:
(i) FOUR OF SIX CRITERIA SATISFACTORY OR BETTER: A satisfactory
evaluation or better in 4/6 of the following criteria.
• Use of Ice
• Use of Music
• Carriage/Line/Form
• Sureness of Skating Skills (excluding jumps and spins)
• Speed
• Program Composition

FURTHER PASSING REQUIREMENT: Sureness of Skating Skills must be
satisfactory or better.

This is why I've been competing Adult Bronze without having yet pasing Adult Preliminary but if I want to be really competitive I need to pass my coresponding test to your competion requirements. But all this changes once I pass Junior Bronze here in Canada. Then I may have the Axel and the Flying spins under my belt. It seems the higher you test in Canada there is more of a difference competitively between us Canadian adult skaters and US adult skaters. One saving grace though for the US skaters is that before you can move on to the next level in FS, you have to pass your Moves in the Field first. Most of you US Adult Skaters who compete have passed your Moves in the Field way beyond your coresponding freeskate level. There are many of us who haven't tested our Skills yet especially if we started out as adult onset skaters. And that's where those of us Canadians who compete in Adult Pre-Bronze to Adult Gold get kicked in the pants in the US.

singerskates

__________________
"It's not age that determines but the heart." "Skating is not just a sport for the young but it's a passion for the soul of the young at heart." Brigitte Laskowski

I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

http://eastcastlemusic.tripod.com

Singerskates Sports Music Editing

Yes, they will. Just look at the podium for Championship Gold. They very handily beat out the younger skaters who came in expecting to win.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Singer - perhaps when/if the rules are revised so they are equitable for US skaters it will be an easy leap to review the Canadian to US rules.

looplover - It's fine to be happy with doing your best, but this is a competition and as such you at least want to feel that you belong in your group.

__________________
Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Canadian adult skaters don't have to pass MIF tests? I thought Canadian adults took the same tests as the kids b/c there are no "Adult" tests, and I'm pretty sure the kids have to pass MIF, correct? Or are MIF woven into the FS test, based on what you posted above?

The Preliminary test you posted above sounds a lot like USFSA Preliminary. I believe Prelim requires a waltz, sal, loop, and flip, and a waltz-to combo. Sit and back upright spins. Music time is 1:30 +/- 10 secs. Spirals and stroking are required in the Pre-Prelim and Prelim MIF tests. A camel is not required until Pre-Juv - is the the Junior Bronze test the Pre-Juv/Silver equivalent? It sounds a lot like Pre-Juv, except for the flying spin, which is not required until Juv, I believe.

The Adult Bronze FS test in the U.S. requires a waltz-toe, sal, toe, and loop. Sit, forward upright, and back upright spins. Music limit 1:50. Sounds actually a tad easier than your Prelim test. Although 3 revs are required for all spins.

If you get "kicked in the pants" b/c your basic skating skills are lacking, then improve your basics. When you compete, if you want to win, you have to do what it takes to perform better than your competitors.

From what I have seen in Bronze, most skaters are also at the Bronze MIF level. Most who are competitive (lutz-loop, camel-sit, etc) move up to Silver after they pass Silver MIF, usually after a couple of years in Bronze. I know some older skaters that have stayed Bronze for a while, but they're not exactly demolishing their competitors right and left. I figure that if they're still in Bronze, that's where they are comfortable and/or they couldn't pass Silver MIF. I have passed Silver MIF and am working on Gold. My goal is to pass through Intermediate, but who knows. I will likely not take another FS test - if I do compete agin, I'll probably do Interp where my 'advanced' skills might make a difference....sorry, but I respectfully disagree with anyone who says jumps aren't the primary placement-driver in FS, at least in Bronze. I doubt a few brackets and rockers in my program will make up for the fact that my hardest jump is a loop (and a rather puny one at that) and I only do sit and upright spins (no camel). And especially given that in Bronze, most are adult-onset and we all have that awkwardness quality, so my brackets and rockers would look kind of scary anyway, lol.

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!