Thanks for putting your adult skating experience into words so eloquently! I was beginning to think that I was missing something and I was living in a bubble. Sure, there will always be things that need to be fixed. That's what progress is.

I would like to change the title of this thread to:

"Trying to ride Eight Bells to the barn after the 2008 Kentucky Derby"


This is a dead horse people, MOVE ON!

Or at least spend your time doing one of the following:
1. SKATING
2. Contact your Adult Reps
C. Skating!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

If you read people's posts, you would see that they are doing/have done exactly that. This is a forum for discussion. As long as people aren't cursing at each other or calling each other names, I don't see a problem with it. I am actually learning quite a bit about adult skating past and present from hearing others' perspectives.

If you find the thread boring and don't want to read it, then don't.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Well, FWIW, here's my take:

My first ANs was 1998. So not at the very beginning, but close to it. And I've attended ten since then. I personally haven't seen that much of a change in attitude or focus, or whatever you want to call it. However, i started in Gold and am now Junior, and am a "returning child skater," so I certainly can't speak for those in Bronze and Silver who had different experiences.

In the beginning I competed A LOT locally. Since I hadn't competed in 20 years, my coach wanted me to get used to it again. I must have done eight events my first year. It was exhausting. For the past several years I have only ever done Sectionals and ANs. That's it. I can't afford to do more than that, and I don't need to get used to competing anymore. Our local club has offered Adult events if we wanted to do them, but my local competitor(s) and I usually decline because we don't have the time or money.

The bleachers have usually been sparse, but that's because there are so many more bleachers than attendees. Chicago was really quite full on the last day, but we had a fantastic PR person and Larry Holliday alone I think brought in 30 outside spectators for his event, LOL!

This year in GR, i came Wednesday night, competed Thursday, and was gone by Friday afternoon. Not how I wanted to do it, but it was what my schedule could allow. So how would we take that into account for attendance? Some of us can't stay the whole week. ANs averages about 450-500 attendees every year, and many people either don't stay the whole week or are competing in multiple events. I don't recall that in the beginning as many skaters were doing so many multiple events. So of course the bleachers would be somewhat empty!

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Well said Debbie.
this is far from dead - the discussion is just the beginnig.

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A question from an observer:

How many adult skaters are there in USFSA? Do they have stats online?

I don't even know if that would give us an accurate number of adult skaters, if that's what you're really looking for. There are plenty of adults at my rink who skate, may take private lessons, but aren't testing or competing, and therefore aren't members of USFS. (My rink has a sparsely attended public all day on one surface and open figure skating sessions on the other most of the day, no club membership or anything required). These people range from beginning adult skaters to people who have been skating for ages, some who skated competitively as kids (a friend of mine I skated with growing up skates once or twice a week during lunch when her work schedule allows, but has no interest in competing or finishing her moves/dances right now, as much as I've tried to talk her into it). I'm sure these people exist at just about any rink.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

I dont beleive there is any thing close to an accurate mechanism for counting all adult skaters (and even the definition would be very fluid) but in my informal observation locally, for every full USFS full membership skating adult, there are at least 3 or more that are taking some level of instruction, or practice a defined set of figure skating skills, on some regular basis that I do not think have full membership in USFS

This has been an excellent and I believe, much needed discussion. If you don't care to read it, please feel free to stay out of the thread.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

If you are a USFS member, you can specify "Adult Skater" in your member profile. Some clubs may include the pre-defined USFS categories on their annual membership renewals.

It's not going to capture any adult skater who is ISI-only but within the USFS category, if an adult who skates self-selects "adult skater", then they'll be included in any demographics that includes Adult skater as a selection (primary or secondary)

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

There is an option in the USFS member profile to check off what type of member you are - and there is a box for "adult skater". However, there are also boxes for "competitive skater" and "recreational skater" and you can check off as many as you want. I don't know that USFS has ever used the data from these checklists to compile a list of adult skaters although it would be a good place to start.

However, as hard as it might be to believe, there are still a lot of adult skaters who aren't technologically inclined and aren't updating their profiles online.

If there are so many adults skating who are not members of USFS (and I know that there are), I'd be curious as to why and what it would take to get them to join. I know that the daytime skaters at my home club tend to be ISI members because that's the program that the rink runs. My club is and has been working with rink management to "bring everyone under one big umbrella" - which hasn't totally been defined yet, but we're working on it. Then the only people who will be outside the umbrella will be the people who come only for public sessions and don't take lessons of any kind.

So far of the people I've talked to, the issue seems to be the cost. But I've also gotten comments along the lines of "Oh, USFS is for kids." and "I'm not good enough." to "I don't belong there." Misconceptions for the most part, but frankly when the picture USFS paints of adult skating revolves almost totally around Adult Sectionals and Nationals(and the higher levels of that), I can understand where the misconceptions come from. And it's not just the skaters themselves that labor under them. I've heard similar comments from coaches, who should know better, you'd think. But looking at the PSA seminar agendas, there's nary a mention of teaching adults and there's virtually nothing in USFS's Basic Skills documentation that mentions anything beyond the existence of the adult levels.

So maybe those are tasks for the new Adult Skaters Committee members: to research how many adult skaters are out there,beyond the ranks of Adults Nationals competitiors, how many are members and how to go about reaching "the rest"; to encourage PSA and USFS to develop teaching methods for adults (like it or not, adults do not generally learn the same way kids do and require different teaching techniques) and to find some way of recognizing excellence in coaching of adults, maybe with an award along the lines of the developmental coach of the year.

Just some thoughts anyway.

And one more time, I'd like to see profiles of the members of the adult committee somewhere to get an idea of their skating levels and involvement and see just how balanced the representation is, age, experience and level-wise.

Yeah, my rink just switched over to ISI, my club will soon be dis-associating from USFS as well; we are pretty much non-USFS.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Any reason given as to why they are switching?

"Adult Skater" is an optional category on the USFSA individual membership form. I remember that category description on a prior membership form as including "competitive adult skaters only", so many people don't check that category on the membership form.

I had thought about the Basic Skills programs picking up those adult skaters who don't test/compete, but that doesn't work either. Some rinks don't register all skaters, and many adult skaters choose private or "coffee club" lessons which may not be registered. As you mentioned, the ISI-only contingent usually gets left out as well.

There is a real need to get an accurate count/survey of skaters, but I don't think the USFSA has sufficient information on file. I had suggested this a few years ago. Several months later, the Adult Committee did a survey through the Adult Skating Ambassadors, but it was focused on Adult Sectionals, not on identifying a population and their needs.

I agree that an accurate survey would provide valuable information for future decisions.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond to this thread.
You are more than welcome to continue your discussions here. I think a roundtable with different points of view is valuable.

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Last I heard, it has something to do with the way the club's non-profit status is granted. If there is no national affiliation then we get a friendlier basis and can qualify for state funding (if there is some available) plus some perks from the rink. If we are under a national organization (like USFS) we don't get any perks and have to follow their rules for everything.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

If an adult skater doesn't test or compete and doesn't want to test or compete, they have no reason to join USFSA. Unless they want to skate on club sessions that require membership in a USFSA club. Or, of course, if they want to be invovled in the sport for another reason (e.g., a child who tests and competes).

Same if their testing and competing needs are covered by ISI membership.

Should USFSA as a whole or individual clubs or adult skaters affiliated with these clubs try to make membership and participation in USFSA activities more attractive to these skaters? What would that involve?

I think that kind of outreach would work better at a local level. Each club could offer programs to appeal to adult beginners or adult figure skaters who had been content just to skate and not test/compete that make sense in the context of the kinds of programs that the club already offers to other populations including active adult skaters. Maybe the Adult Committee could suggest some potential outreach efforts, but not all will be effective in every local context.

And there would still be individuals who would be happy just to putter around on adult-friendly public sessions or even freestyle or dance sessions, maintaining the skills they've already learned, and wouldn't be interested in anything more structured, no matter how attractive the programs might seem to those of us who do enjoy the structure.

As a kid I skated first, under the ISIA program, then later under USFSA. Back then, the perception was exactly that - ISIA was for fun and USFSA was for serious skaters. It wouldn't surprise me if that general perception is still around.

Also, you mention costs. I think that's a huge factor. The cost of club membership and competition entrie fees are sometimes huge for USFSA. I don't skate ISI so I can't comment on their costs. However, the entry fees for Sectionals (championship event) and AN were staggering, in my mind.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

ISI is a national organization, though.

The couple of rink managers that I've talked to seem to feel that ISI is "friendlier" than USFS - perhaps easier to deal with and definitely cheaper for the rink. Maybe this is something the USFS needs to address as well, since it affects more than just adults.

That's what I said, but maybe it has more to do with the rink itself switching to the ISI "We-Skate" program and dropping USFS affiliation? Who knows? I think there is a misperception that if we were USFS then we (the skaters) were somehow "sponsored" by the companies that also support USFS. (this was something I heard through the grapevine)

Maybe it all boils down to the bottom line if the ISI program is less expensive than the USFS program? I honestly can't say because I'm not a club officer and no longer involved in the discussions.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

And some of it may be that ISI and the way ISI is organized works better for many rink managers than working with one or more local USFS-affiliated clubs, who may have different officers every year or so.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Good idea, I agree. Sure, there are plenty of adults that have no desire to compete or test and thus would have no reason to join USFSA, but I also think a lot of adults who start skating aren't aware of the opportunities. B/c no one tells them. LTS programs tend to be kid-oriented, and from what I've observed, coaches and program directors focus on steering the kid 'graduates' into private lessons, but not so much the adults. Maybe they don't think adults would want to go any further than Basic Skills, I don't know. Or maybe they just don't know much about adult skating - since the PSA seems to content to ignore adult skating (I'm basing that on Blue's earlier post), I guess that's not surprising. So that's the first thing that needs to change.

Simultaneously, it would be good for the Adult Committee to work on making sure the info on adult tests and comps in the rulebook is correct (which should be easier now that the rulebook is online). And disseminating that info. Honestly, if I didn't hang out on this board, I wouldn't know most of what I know about adult skating. And there are plenty of coaches and club officials that are in the dark, too. I keep seeing comp entry forms (and occasionally test forms) with incorrect rules for the adult events (ex: "Young Adult" categories, min age for Adult events listed as 25, wrong times and jump/spin limits for various levels).

I think I read that ISI offers liability insurance to rinks, but I don't know about USFSA. If a rink's expenses are cheaper as a result of aligning with ISI vs USFSA, I could see why a rink would go that route.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

In my experience:
-ISI is an organization that really exists for rinks. The purpose of their LTS program is to keep rinks in business.

-USFS is an organization that exists to support the qualifying structure. Their LTS program exists to identify (but not really develop) potential talent, and to help fund the program (be the bottom of the pyramid, to an extent).

Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places, but I haven't seen anything from USFS about rink management, maintence, alternate money makers (broom ball, bumper car things) etc. I see that alot from ISI.

So from a rink's point of view ISI has a lot to offer. Our rink switched to USFS LTS recently because the skate director said they were losing business to a nearby rink who used it. Parents didn't think ISI LTS was the real program, because it wasn't the name they were used to hearing. The rink is still technically an ISI rink too, as our adult synchro team splits the fee for the rink's membership, so we can skate as an ISI team. (ISI skaters represent rinks, not clubs.)

Although our rink has a USFS club, many of the skaters and pretty much all of the top skaters who use the rink are members of a different club at the other nearby rink (which they also skate at.) I'm a board member of that 2nd club, but I never skate at the primary rink. Ironically, at regionals, sectionals, etc the club I'm a member of is announced as based at the rink I skate at, because that's where it was based at when it was founded. But it's not anymore, another club is.

As for why many adult skaters out there don't join USFS- it's expensive. I wasn't planning on rejoining this year because my tests won't be ready, so why bother. But then I got on the club board, so I'll need to be a member. That fee will not do anything but support the structure of USFS. I don't use any club resources (ice, parties, testing, competitions) if I'm not testing in a particular year. Club ice isn't really a thing here- it's 2 hours a week for my home club, and 1 hour a week, but not in the summer for my local club. Freestyle ice at the club's home rink is only before 9:00 am, but everyday, and at the rink I skate at 2 hours a week- and those are the two hours I skate each week. You don't need to be a member to skate freestyle ice. It's like public for better skaters.

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What I need is a montage...
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I have very little first hand knowledge of ISI but a lot of past and present participants that I know spoke well of it, therefore, I don't see any reason to make a special appeal that ISI people change to USFS unless they have an interest in expanding their horizons to USFS competitions. I feel it is better to co-exist and even cross promote....after all a 3-turn is done the same way no matter where you belong. I've heard that USFS took quite a few ques from ISI in developing the LTS program after listening to critisisms that they were so over focused only on elites. So in a way, maybe we could credit ISI for making USFS more user friendly. PSA does have a vacume when it comes to mentioning adult skating in their programs, even though when pressed about it, they will claim "yes, ummm, adults are important too" I think they're starting to get the message but it will be quite awhile before it gets full recognition. - but it will happen.

Any attempt to number adult skaters will have to go beyond USFS -AND- ISI sources. There are a ton of adult skaters that have no reason to belong to either, but show up regularly to enjoy skating. Ultimately, I think the rink management could provide the most comprehensive number if they had a good business reason to define it.

There really isn't much incentive to join USFS...can't say competitions as the ones in my area are ISI (at least the ones the kids participate in are); we don't get a break on ice time or ice fees (club ice is the same price as regular ice, just in different chunks of time); basic USFS membership was included in the club membership but that didn't really mean anything to skaters, their parents or the rink. My rink did have a test session but it was for dance and I'm not sure about the details (I wasn't involved in it).

As for adult skaters, once they get good in the lesson track there is a "now what" type of question and usually it's presented for them to participate in the ice shows. A few are asked about competitions and testing.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Another thing to remember is that ISI does not exist everywhere. I've lived most of my life in Cleveland, and never even heard of ISI until I went to Miami for synchro camp as a teenager and met girls from Chicago who had been on ISI teams. I don't know of any rinks around here who offer ISI, none of the rinks I skate at offer it. I *think* the club tha that was my home club for most of the 90s now has a few beginner synchro teams competing both USFS and ISI (even though the club has historically been just USFS), and the team's coach has started competing ISI freestyle herself, but that's it.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything