That's another very good point. As you say, not everyone is interested in competing in a championship event. Granted, if a skater qualifies for the championship event via this new system, I would assume they would have the option to bow out if they so desire. But then if that becomes the case, it could get complicated as to deciding who would get that now vacant spot in the championship round if we're taking a percentage from each age class. How do we decide which of the skaters that barely missed the cut in their respective age classes gets the chance to fill in?

Exactly. No one's forcing them to do the final. They still get to compete against their age peers in the open events -- that part doesn't change at all. It's only the final round portion. Skaters who would normally have a final round still will (under a different name, "championship"), and skaters who don't usually have a final (typically age groups I and V) will have a final, but no one's putting a gun to their head to do it. It would just be icing on the cake, as they say!

BTW, to the previous poster, it's not "my" suggestion. It's the adult skating committee's!

My only concerns about eliminating Adult Sectionals are two: 1) the cost of traveling for some of the competitors and 2) by taking out Sectionals, it eliminates a major avenue for No-Test and Pre-Bronze FS skaters to compete.

The cost thing is already covered here on this thread. I for one, am definitely in that case too. I certainly can't afford to go traveling to different parts of the country each year. I certainly couldn't afford Chicago this year, even I am eligible to go. And given that my hubby is in the job market again, I'm concerned whether or not I could afford to go to Lake Placid in 2008 now.

As for the #2 case: There are regions where ice skating competitions and (especially open competitions where there ARE adult skating events) are few and in between. Since AN *STILL* doesn't allow skaters in No-Test and Pre-Bronze FS skaters to compete, I take the stance that we should always give No-Test and Pre-Bronze FS the opportunity to compete and get competition experience.

I am forever thankful that I live in an area where it's unusually adult-skater friendly and there are quite a few avenues for me to compete if I wish to. In addition to finally meeting a LOT of wonderful fellow adult skaters on this board and other boards, I've gained invaluable experience thru my last competition at Sectionals in 2005 that I can take to Adults Nationals in 2008. When I finally do make it to AN, I now have some sort of a clue what to prepare for.

Let's allow the skaters who don't have such luxury the opportunity too. I'm sure that they would value the experience too, as I have.

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jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

OK, here's the thing that's getting lost: "Sectionals" means the qualifying portion of the competition. The rest of the competition is an open, not a sectional. The open competitions can still exist -- in fact, they did exist before "sectionals" were instituted. There was the "West Coast Adult Open" and other similar competitions in the Midwest and East. There's no reason those competitions can't be held the way they were only several years ago. They just won't have the qualifying element.

Is it really that difficult to find clubs to host sectionals? Or is it that the USFS no longer wants to spend the money on the grants in light of possibly losing their tv contracts.

I do agree with Jazz on sectionals (including the open events) being a great avenue for adults who have never skated at an all adult competition to do so. I know there were a lot of new faces in Minneapolis this year - everyone that I talked with who were not "regulars" were thrilled at being to compete at the first all adult competition they had ever had a chance to participate in.

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So, the final rounds will be replaced by "championship rounds", and these will be composed of all age levels? Ok with me, it is a different event with all the age groups. I'd be for this or initial and finals with no championships, but not both.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Yes and yes.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who work so hard to promote skating, especially for us adults. Its fascinating to watch this conversation, everyone trying to work out what is best for all. There is no one right answer which is why forums such as this are so healthy.

So well done skaters, committee members, those who can attend governing counsel, those who skate at nationals, those who skate on weeekends only but care, club officers, lurkers and posters.
Lyle

Right -- the final rounds would be replaced by Championship rounds. There wouldn't be both. That's why there would be fewer events, not more.

If we were to keep sectionals AND institute Championship for Bronze and Silver, then there would be MORE events at AN. Which is why I am not for that scenario. If we add Championship for Bronze and Silver, we have to eliminate sectionals. Otherwise it's too much. JMHO!

Too much indeed. My head is spinning, and this does not even include interpretive!

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

I agree with Frank. The Championship round should be based on the total scores from the QRs. Don't just go picking a certain percentage of each age group.

For instance, say four skaters in age group I score 33, 32, 31, and 30 points respectively. Now say the highest score in age group III is a 29. Just for illustation purposes, say only the top three (or some other percentage) of age group I gets to move on to the Championship round, you really don't have the best skaters, do you? I mean there is a 29 from age group III who is going to get to skate and a 30 from age group I that won't be skating. Since all these well-balanced rules came into effect this season, along with IJS, there's no reason not to go by the final scores. Base it on total scores so the best performances make the Championship round.

But I will go on record as saying I think Sectionals should stay as is.

Kelton

If you are using the actual scores, then how would this be done for events with multiple levels? How is the ch. pairs done now with different program times?

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Here here! I'm too confused as it is with the new rules... and I figured "If it ain't broke, why fix it?"

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I might have to run and hide with you, but an interesting idea. I can see Interp disappearing at some point, and think it's a good idea. Mind you, this would totally eliminate me from from ever competing again since interp is about it for me anymore, but that's ok. I'm constantly hearing that interp is a crap shoot, so wonder if it would really be missed? We could keep the 20 minute warm-up and possibly keep the days shorter that way. I'm undecided about pre-bronze and solo dance at this point, but would lean towards not adding them. How many entries do we have in these events at Sectionals?

I'll be hiding with you both. I'm intruigued by this. Especially in light of the fact that National Showcase is in existence now. Essentially, it's seen as Nationals for interp (both light and dramatic). I know for a fact they have Adult and Masters interp there. Why not eliminate interp from ANs if that's the case? For many people who only do interp anyway, it's not like they'd be forced to spend money for yet another competition. However, I can see the down side to this as it's a mixed event, not an adult-only competition. Granted, I was signed up for both freeskate and interp before I got hurt (and this group of skaters WOULD be forced to go to another competition), but it's an interesting proposition.

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One of the issues that hasn't been addressed relative to hosting Adult Nationals is the cost of bringing in officials, judges, etc from all over the Country. The costs of airfare, hotel, feeding these individuals etc is monumental. There is absolutely no common sense reason why qualified judges local to the venue of the event can't judge bronze, silver, gold and even master level adult skaters. I realize that there are rules in place which require equal sectional representation for a "National" competition, but if the concern is to try to make Adult Nationals more economical and streamlined, I think this should be an avenue to investigate as well. If LOC's could bring in qualified local officials, rather than having to fly people in, put them up, provide transport, etc, that may encourage more bids for the event, as a significant cost of putting on the event would be reduced. Just something to ponder....

I'm also curious as to where the information regarding a $50,000 grant to Oberstdorf to use IJS came from for "extra manpower and techology". As of a matter of fact the competition appeared to be extremly streamlined, and many individuals performed more than one function. I never saw "extra manpower or technology". Just curious what the source of that information was. Oberstdorf may have received a grant of some sort, but from what I understand it did not appear to be utilized with reference to the implemention of IJS.

I agree, if we eliminate interp at Nationals it will deff free up so many avenues at Nationals. Just move the interp to its own competition, so at least the adults can only focus on that instead of running around from freeskate to interps and vice versa.

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Tim David's Website

I've done both too....but mostly because I was already there, so why not? I'm obviously out of the loop. I didn't realize there was a National Showcase. If the kids go there for interp, I can see adults doing the same, and it would give interpretive skaters a great option if it were eliminated from AN.

I definitely could stand to see interpretive disappear.

But whatever ends up happening, I can't wait for Lake Placid!

I think that's only a good idea if the same judges are on the panel. Skaters will be getting different PCS scores within the same event if different judges are used.

And to go on with the absurdity of some of the PCS marks, the PCS marks weren't even logical comparing differnt level events:

In Championshio Gold Men, Nick Chou and Gilbert Chang had higher PCS marks than Brooks Jones and Joe Radomile in Championship Masters Men. While Nick and Gilbert are lovely skaters, they are way below Brooks and Joe in *all* categories of the PCS.

Similarly, Ninotcka, who won Championship Gold Ladies, had higher PCS marks than Stephanie Cooke, who won Championship Masters Ladies. Heather Hilgar in Championship Gold Ladies had higher PCS marks than Beth Delano in Championship Masters Ladies. Huh??? There is absolutely no comparison between these sets of skaters in terms of where their PCS marks should be. Furthermore, Heather’s PCS marks would have her ranked around 6th in Championship Masters Ladies!

This just goes to show you that IJS is *still* all relative, and that, in fact, there is no absolute meaning to the scores.

Taking from this example, I believe that ISU should use the top *combined* TSS (total segment scores) in determining who the top 6 are in the Grand Prix Final. I know, there are complications with this rationale, but it brings up the point that someone like Kimmie skated against tough fields (but still had high TSS scores) whereas some of the skaters who made it to the final had relatively low scores.

Similarly, right now for the QRs, it depends on who you are skating against. If you are unfortunate to be in a group with skaters who have always made it to the FR, then your chances of qualifying are lower.

So using the top TSS does not make sense to me.
There is always a luck of the draw element, and I think that is fine.

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The source was Ed Mann at the adult meeting at ANs. When Century Leigh asked the question as to how O'Dorf managed to get the scores up so quickly on the boards while the competitors were sitting in the K&C, Ed Mann responded that they had an extra $50,000 that we don't have, which allows for way more manpower and technology.

Not saying he was right, as one person already told me they think that he was referring to other internationals and not adult ones, but that's what he said at the meeting.

You can't just enter National Showcase, you have to qualify. How? By placing in the top four in a sanctioned artistic event -- of which AN Interp is one.

Interp is a cash cow. It's popular. It's fun. And it's also a way to keep AN all-inclusive, since not everyone does FS, pairs or dance.

Regarding using the top scores to qualify for Championship, the only way that's doable is to ensure the exact same panel judges every event across the board. And that's not gonna happen. BTW, standard track regionals doesn't use the top scores, it uses the top placers for final round -- for the exact same reason.

ITA with everything you said Daisies. Though I'd be interested to see the numbers on how many people would enter Solo Dance vs Interp if given the option. I think Interp would still be the higher draw.

All the more reason to leave it as is.

Kelton

I suppose where I am most uncomfortable with what has been proposed thus far is the idea that the number of qualifying spots per age class should based on something that is totally out of the control of the participants in any given event....attendance. In my age class (this year they lumped Gold Men's classes I and II together) there were only two entrants in my open event. If I'm interpreting the "percentage rule" correctly (see post #30 in this thread), only the first place finisher in the group would qualify because there are only two of us. Meanwhile, for classes II and III, there were five or six entrants this year. Applying the proposed "percentage rule" (again this is based on my interpretation of what's been posted) this group would have two or three qualifying spots for the championship event. If I have applied this proposed rule correctly (again I'm not sure so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) then I would have less of a chance of qualifying for the championship solely because fewer people signed up for my event? That would be something I can't help in the least and doesn't seem fair to me. If open events are used as qualifiers for the championship events, then all of the age groups should be offered the same number of spots. Why should one group of skaters be penalized just because nobody else showed up to skate?

Another problem I see with this revised qualifying procedure is in the case where someone who had qualified for a championship event decides to pass on skating in the championship round. Now you have as many as five (one per age class) skaters who barely missed qualifying through their open events waiting in the wings. To whom do you offer that now vacant spot in the championship round?

As with any proposed change, this one is going to take a lot of work and a lot of thought. I'm not decidedly against or decidedly for keeping Adult sectionals at the moment. However, I think I'm leaning towards keeping sectionals until I see a more detailed qualifying procedure. There are too many uncertainties at the moment for me to really jump on board removing sectionals. That's just my two cents.