The previous thread on approaching students for private lessons got me thinking. Mrs. Redboots mentioned that once a skater can manage forward edges and crossovers, they can manage the first few dances.

At what point is a skater ready to start working on the first 3 dances with an eye towards testing? After Basic 8? At some point in the Freestyle series? Could a 6yo really execute the steps to test standard? To my untrained eye, it looks as if a smooth Dutch Waltz requires much better control of edges than the typical Basic 8 or FS1 competitive program.

I really don't know, but I just thought I'd comment that the ability to keep time is important in dance. I suppose that can be learned, but I would think it is also something that comes with development over time.

The thing about dance is that it may look easy, but every step has to be on the correct edge, and every step on the correct beat. I just don't think a 6 year old could do that.....

I think the skater needs to be old enough to take alot of specific direction and corrections. Otherwise you are wasting their lesson time. My daughter was at a fairly high FS level - maybe pre-juvenile, and then dance was relatively easy to accomplish for her, and complimented her other skating.

This is just my opinion....I'm curious to hear others.

I don't know that there is one specific age. A 6yo who has good basics and some rhythm could do dance quite well, while another 6yo wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

I also don't know what level people should start dancing, but they should have control over their forward edges and have solid crossovers. I started dancing (granted at an older age) as soon as I started getting ready to test my pre-pre moves. The dances have actually helped my moves and control over the edges, as well as helping my footwork. But beyond control, the child should have some strength behind their stroking. For a smaller child, power is needed to fill out the patterns properly.

The first 3 dances are relatively simple in terms of patterning, and trying the Dutch Waltz a couple of times would be a good indicator of whether or not your child is ready. There isn't any way to tell, really, other than looking at how he/she responds to their group coach and if they pick up the patterning of the exercises quickly or not.

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"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

There is a kid at the rink I skate at who started dance at age 8 or 9, just as she transitioned from group to private lessons. Although she continued working on low-level freestyle elements for awhile, she wanted to focus almost totally on dance.

Not all can, but I know one child (now, of course, long given up) who had taken her Preliminary dance test before her sixth birthday - now equivalent to level 5 (I think) of our Compulsory Dance tests.

In hindsight, this turned out to be a mistake, as for many years she wasn't competitive against girls who simply had longer legs than she did.

I think that, as long as the child in question is enjoying herself and isn't under any pressure to test or compete unless and until she wants to, dance can only be a good addition to her skating. It would probably not be wise to focus exclusively on dance at that age, but to do it as well as free skating and Moves. The more all-round she can be now, the better it will be if and when she wants to specialise later.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Personally, I think if your daughter has shown an interest in dance, great! Get her some lessons! However, it's true that it could be quite awhile before she's ready to test dance. I'll give you an example- I started dance as soon as I finished Basic 6 (there was no Basic 7 and 8 then). I tested my Dutch Waltz nine months later, and my Canasta and Rythym Blues two months after that. However, I was turning thirteen the week I tested the last two. I would plan on at least a year, maybe longer, before your daughter would be ready to test dances. But I would still put her in it if she's interested. The important thing will be to find a coach who can make it fun for her, since dance can be kind of dry and she won't be testing or competing for awhile. (I'm picturing my coach trying to teach Prelims to a six y.o. and grinning- I actually think he'd be great at it). Although actually, when I was in Learn-to-Skate, some of the Basic Skill competitions offered solo dance events for kids who hadn't passed their Prelims yet, so if she wanted to compete you could look into that.

I almost forgot- the USFSA Basic Skills has a set of Dance badges equivalent to the Freestyle levels that come after Learn-to-Skate. If your rink does USFSA Learn-to-Skate she could definitely get into taking those tests. They're broken down more than the "real" dance tests. Dance 1, IIRC, is forward swing rolls, forward progressives, the end steps to the Dutch Waltz, and the Dutch Waltz done to music either solo or with a partner. That would be a reasonable short-term goal for someone your daughter's age and level, I would think.

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Shae-Lynn and Victor: We knew you were champions, and on 3/28/03 the whole WORLD found out! Thank you for twelve wonderful years!

I know several 10 year old kids who have completed their gold tests.
I also know a lady who was finishing her senior silver dances in her mid 70's.
You can start dance at any age if you just want to enjoy it and do the tests.
If you are with a partner and competing, the dance tests are only a sideline to the competitive tests. (stroking and freedances)

Wow, I found it amazing that a ten year old could pass a gold test! You are all right.....if the child is ready and enjoys it, go for it!

I started dance when I was seven, but I also started skating when I was four. By seven, I had all my singles and a double sal, so I wasn't exactly a beginner.

By six, a more mature and intelligent kid is ready to learn dance, and physically, as soon as a kid can do decent crossovers, stroking, and three-turns (so basically equivalent to pre-pre moves), they're ready. Of course, kids master the dance faster if they're both older and more experieced (though, the later you start, the more you dance like a freestyler), but I noticed dancing was a great foil for my freestyle -- I had better expression, speed, timing, and stroking than my couterparts because of it. And, since children have notoriously short attention spans, it's one more thing they can do.

One problem with starting early, though, is skater's dance technique can mature faster than them, and depending on how the judges are where you live, that can be a huge problem. I was ten when I started working on my blues, and at the time, I was about 4'7", 75 lbs, and had a really young loking face. The first time we had a judge look at it, not to test, they said that, had I been testing, they probably would have failed me, not because my technique or timing was off, but because I looked to young (in the rule-book, under expression, it says something to the effect of the skater must exhibit sensuality...and obviously that's a little difficult for a tiny little ten year old).

This is what I was thinking with this thread, but I think the judges have to take the age and maturity into consideration when they look at the test -- at least in my area I have heard judges say, "Well, she's just a little kid, I don't expect her to have such neat extensions, toe-point, etc." Some may say that is wrong, but I had to agree that except for things that couldn't be surmounted by the skater due to age and maturity, the dance was certainly passing!!

Thanks to everyone for all the great information!

I've seen a couple of dance coaches working with little girls who came up to about their waists. One of the girls required a lot of help just to stay on task , but the coach just took it in stride.

I saw them in the LTS book and wondered if the "passing" standard was lower than an official dance test. Are they usually taught by a dance coach? Or could any coach who had tested those dances teach the group dance classes? There are no FS or Dance students in the group lessons this session. I'll have to ask if they ever teach those classes. The little golden stickers for each of the sub-tests are probably wasted on older students, but they are just the thing for a 6yo.

I tested my first dance when I was 7or 8 (the Dutch Waltz in canada sry I dont know wut the dances are in the US) I did fine, all the judges I had said that they liked 2 see that I was having fun with the dance because I was so young..........they also thought it was cute beacause my dance coach was about 6ft 3 and I was probly 4ft 3. I couldnt keep the time very well but most of my coaches would help me count it and whisper 2 me the time during the test. Most of the girls on the Preliminary dances at my club are around 5-9ish.............and some of them pass most of their Jr. Bronze dances before they finish their preliminary freeskate.** Again Canadian test levels so Im not sure Im u understand what Im saying**

My daughter passed preliminary dances (Canada) when she was six and got goods and a couple of excellents on them. Dance was more important than freeskate. I also know 10 year olds with gold dances, it's very common for little kids to do high level dances where I am (Ontario). I have a cousin-of-sorts in Quebec the same age as my daughter and the coaches won't even discuss dance with her until she is a teenager and "mature". They push freeskate and if you don't have an axel when you're seven, you're soooo left behind. So, dance instruction depends on the coach and the area and what they consider more important. Where I am, dance is important because it teaches good edges, other places, not so important.

As an adult who is taking dance again, it doesn't matter what level, the coaches still whisper the timing and the steps to you!

I've never had a coach whisper timing or steps to me........YELLED to me, yes....... Sorry to go OT, I couldn't help myself......

I would think a private coach could teach her the dances and put the stickers in the book for her when she's "passed" something. I taught the dance class at my rink this summer, and from what I can tell there is no real passing standard. It's the same as the Freeskate 1-6, where the coach tests the kids when they're ready. For example, I only had eight weeks with my class, and they were all pretty much beginners, so no one actually passed Dance 1. I passed them all on all the Dance 1 elements except actually doing the dance on pattern with music, since no one could yet.

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Shae-Lynn and Victor: We knew you were champions, and on 3/28/03 the whole WORLD found out! Thank you for twelve wonderful years!

Sorry, I am Canadian (well I'm not sorry I'm Canadian ha ha) but can someone explain what the stickers in the book are? Many years ago we used to have a pre beginner badge series that included Dance I and Dance II. Is this similar to that? The only dance testing Canada has now is the prelim, jr bronze, sr bronze..... etc., or competitive freedances.

They have stickers to put on a page when you have learned an element ie your 3 turn,your sit spin ect.
To be honest, we want our skater to master something as she wants to, not cause she will get a sticker.We dont do any stickers as a reward. Might work for some, just not for our family.
we had a huge issue two months ago as dd coach was teaching another girl a bit older and my dd. She was writing down what she went over with each girl and put a sticker by each item.
The other little girl looked at my dd paper and was counting who got more STICKERS!!!!!!! That isnt what is all about, so it got stopped.This other girl is competive way past how a 6yo should be. Our skater is learning how she skates her best, not to worry about someone else.The funny thing is our skater is a higher level than the older child in the first place.
anyway im sure its a great way for some kids to learn

I'm from Canada as well, and in both clubs I've skated at (in different provinces), it is totally normal for kids to start testing dances when they are 6 or 7 and have their golds by the time they are in their early teens. However, these are typically the kids who are primarily free-skaters and are just doing dance tests because they have to. I've watched them test, and they do just what they have to to get by--i.e., no toe point, minimal extension, etc.--because they are bored out of their minds...they want to be jumping. For a kid who is really serious and exceptionally talented at dance, I think it is beneficial to wait until they are a bit older so they put more effort into it. I am a MUCH better dancer from taking my dances at an older age, when I wanted to do well, then I would have been if I had started dance really young. I would have just wanted to pass the dance and get on with the next one.

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~No thinking, breathing, or hesitation!~

I too am Canadian, and am having a difficult time trying to make the comparison from our skate program levels to the US levels.

If someone could post a site where I can look at the requirements for each level in the US - right from LTS up - it would be MUCH appreciated.

My daughter is 9 years old. She has just started her 3rd year in the StarSkate program with Skate Canada. When she was 6 we enrolled her in the CanSkate program with our local club. She absolutely hated it. She fought tooth and nail about going each week, and yes I know, many of you are probably saying THEN YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE MADE HER DO IT! I agree that children should not be forced to do anything they don't like, BUT we also have a policy in our family that once you commit to something, you finish out your commitment. We don't care if you never do that particular activity again, BUT you will finish the session/year for which we have paid good money. Now, that said, the reason she dreaded skating, as we found out from her and from talking to the coach is that she didn't want to be doing all that "baby" stuff as she called it. When the next season came around she cried because she wanted to skate. We reminded her about all the fights from the previous year yet she insisted she loved skating, just not doing all that "baby" stuff. I went and talked to the coach and she suggested maybe privates would be a better option. I nearly choked when she said that - why pay all that money for a child that had to be dragged to the arena..... but we agreed to try it for one month. That was the BEST decision we EVER made. Her progress and love of the sport was overwhelming by the end of that first month. Here was a tiny little 7 year old that would have skated from morning til night if we had let her.

When she entered Star Skate, she had only passed level 3 of the Canskate program. By the end of that year, she was landing sals, toe loops, and was able to do a passable sit spin. She competed in her first competition in Spin Spiral Jump, and she also took her first 2 dances - the Dutch Waltz and the Baby Blues (I think I have figured out that in the US its called the Rythym Blues). Her coach started teaching them to her in February of that first year, because she found that her basic skating was lacking from her focusing so much on what she perceived as Fun stuff - jumps and spins. It worked extrememly well for her. She was 7 when she took those first 2 tests, and she got all goods and excellents on her test sheet. Last year, her second year in Star Skate, she took her Canasta and finished her prelims, and also finished all 3 Junior Bronze Dances. I find that at 9 years old, she is actually a little behind other skaters her age in dances. Most 9/10 year olds in my area are at least finished Sr. Bronzes and quite often their Jr. Silvers as well. The goal for this year is to complete the Sr. Bronzes.

My daughter loves freeskate more than anything else, but she also has seen a vast improvement in her overall skating quality since taking the dance tests. Her stroking has improved, as has her footwork and speed. She also understands the necessity of "playing to the music" which helps considerably in her FS.

In talking to our coach, she likes to keep the kids levels in each discipline comparable. With our daughter she wants to try and keep her advancing at basically the same rate accross the board, for example this year, the goal is to complete her Jr. bronze Skills and FS, Sr. Bronze elements and Sr. bronze dances. Her feeling is it makes for a more well rounded skater who is strong in all areas.

A good coach will only do what is in the best interest of the skater, and there really is no magic age at which a child should start dance.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_basic_ref/lts/basic_dance.htm
http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_basic_ref/...sic_eights.htm

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_basic_ref/...owplow_sam.htm
http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_basic_ref/..._freestyle.htm

http://www.sk8stuff.com/m_rules.htm

That is why all the baby stuff is inportant, cause if you dont have the basics down its hard to teach jumps.even a waltz jump standing still isnt the same as a jump using speed and nice stroking.I see lots of kids who start late who dont want to do the babystuff but dont get the whole one thing leads to another thing. Ie a dip in the toddler program helps with your shoot the duck which then leads to a great sit spin.
We would have made them honor the same commintment, which is why we started in group lessons once a week with our then 3yo.She would have finished the session but that would have been it if her heart wasnt in it.Its way too spendy to do otherwise when they could do something else.

I'm trying to figure out the equivalents.
Canada I know. Help us out, US skaters!
Canada/ US
Preliminary / Preliminary
Junior Bronze/ Pre Bronze?
Senior Bronze / Bronze?
Junior Silver/ Pre Silver?
Senior Silver / Silver? Pre Gold?
Gold / Gold

CANADA
Preliminary
Dutch
Canasta
Baby Blues (different steps from the Rhythm Blues)

Junior Bronze
Fiesta
Willow
Swing Dance

Senior Bronze
Ten Fox
Fourteenstep
European

Junior Silver
Harris Tango
American
Keats Foxtrot
Rocker

Senior Silver
Paso
Starlight
Blues
Kilian
Cha Cha Congelato

Gold
Viennese
Westminster
Quickstep
Argentine
Silver Samba

Diamond
Rhumba
Tango Romantica
Yankee Polka
Austrian Waltz
Golden Waltz
Ravensburger

I have a child who tested her first dances when she was almost 9 and finished the Gold dances a month or two after her 12th birthday. She went on to finish the Diamond tests a month after her 16th birthday. She also has Gold Skills and Freekskate and Novice FS.

Dance was crucial to her becoming competent with edges and turns. Between dance and skills, her in-betweens became her THING in freeskate. There were many times when the jumps were iffy, her strength of footwork and edges held her up.

It always just killed me to see coaches who passed over dances in favour of more freeskate lessons for their kids. These were often the same coaches who didn't bother much with Skills either. IMO, you can always tell the freeskaters who have had decent dance/skills coaching and taken the tests; they're usually smoother skaters and have much better edging and turns.

I'm now an adult skater and working solely on Dance and Skills. I may or may not get into Freeskate at some point. There is a wee one on one of my sessions who is 6 years old. She flies around the ice like a bat-out-of-h*ll. I can see where, with this little one, her dance lessons will slow her down a bit and let her work more on edges and stroking technique -- even if she's too young to realize what's happening.

I guess I'm just a really strong believer in the value of dance and that any age is good to start -- if you want your 6-year-old to have dance lessons, go for it.

Besides, there's nothing cuter than a coach doing a group lesson with a bunch of wee ones on the Dutch Waltz -- a mama duck and all her little 'babies' going 'round the ice...

This is the US order. As you can see, there are some major differences from the Canadian order:

Preliminary
Dutch Waltz
Canasta Tango
Rhythym Blues

Pre-Bronze
Swing Dance
Cha Cha
Fiesta Tango

Bronze
Hickory Hoedown
Willow Waltz
Ten-Fox

Pre-Silver
Fourteenstep
European Waltz
Foxtrot

Silver
American Waltz
(Harris) Tango
Rocker Foxtrot

Pre-gold
Kilian
Blues
Paso Doble
Starlight Waltz

Gold
Viennese Waltz
Westminster Waltz
Quickstep
Argentine Tango

International
Rhumba
Austrian Waltz
Cha Cha Congelado
Yankee Polka
Ravensburger Waltz
Tango Romantica
Silver Samba
Golden Waltz
Midnight Blues

__________________
"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

Thanks TreSk8AZ
I forgot about the Midnight Blues - it's Diamond in Canada (international)
There is a new Starskate (test stream) freeskate competition category called Introductory. It is the the very first level, below pre preliminary. To qualify for entry in a competition at that level you have to have no tests, dance or free. This is keeping some of the younger kids out of the dance tests now, so that they can still qualify for competing at this level.