(Newbie question)

I am looking for suggestions with respect to drills, subtle aspects to focus on with respect to form or just general suggestions so as to really hit on good, deep outside edgework.

I am taking group lessons (Alpha ISI) and private lessons. I'm a little stuck on this in my private lessons. Coach has been patient and has given me a few ideas to help me. The group lesson unfortunately isn't much help, partly because of the number of people (11 for a 30-minute lesson) and the fact that Alpha focuses on the result more than the technique (doing crossovers before outside edges have been mastered).

And ... "just do it" (ice-time) is an appropriate answer also. I really want to move into a 3-turn as soon as possible, but I know that nailing the basics are more important. (In fact, my coach told me recently, that we aren't even thinking about too much else besides basics until "skates on ice" are as comfortable as "shoes on the ground".)

With respect to overall balance skills, I am probably the best in the group class (ONLY because of the private lessons ... believe me, no ego issues here), so the problem isn't that I am not ready for outside edge work because of balance problems. In fact, I am really empathetic towards the other folx in the group class who haven't got the good weight transfer/balance/knee bend/stroking issues figured out yet .. and crossovers are thrown at them.

Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

Thanx all

Joe

Since you're still a newbie, the only thing I can really recommend is practice. Lots of it. That's really the only way to get comfortable with edges. I wasn't comfortable with edges until I was past the Delta level, LOL.

I mean, edges are edges. They aren't like MITF or jumps or spins where there's a "right way" to do them. Once you get more advanced, you should be able to hit an outside edge with almost any body position. (I mean, shoulders relative to the circle.)

You will go on an outside edge with some degree of lean once your hips are facing outside of the circle you are making. Thus, for an RFO edge, your left hip is pushed back relative to the right, and vice versa.

The trick with any edge, I've found, seeing how far you can lean without falling over. It's scary when you're first learning outside edges since there's no leg on the other side to catch you if you lean TOO much. There's really no way to teach that even if your coach is really good, because you yourself have to get over that fear. But after a lot of experimentation, I found that you can lean quite a bit before you actually fall. Although, this only works if you keep your back upright. If you lean over with your upper body, you'll fall before you hit any edge.

I will say this: You can only hit a good steady edge when your upper body isn't moving. Again, this takes practice, to see what your torso is doing and why it's doing it. When I haven't skated in a while, sometimes I find that it's harder to check one side than the other, and it feels like I'm fighting my shoulders to keep still. Usually that's because I'm holding one shoulder too far forward. When you get a good edge position, you shouldn't be fighting anything.

It's worth it to spend the time getting comfortable with edges while you're new. (Notice that I don't say, "deep." Deep edges only come with years of practice. Sorry.) I was a slooooow learner on skates until edges clicked with me. Couldn't do a 3turn, couldn't do a waltz jump, until I stopped fearing the lean. Strangely, it was learning a waltz jump (the landing position) that I got the "Eureka!" moment regarding back outside edges.

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"The ice is finer when the zombie goes over it!" - said by an excited 5-year-old at the rink

"The life you've led is in fact not the totality of what is possible for you." - John Partridge of Wheaton College (and a Matrix philosopher )

First of all you have a great attitude about getting the basics really solid. You will never stop working on them, and they are the foundation of all skating!

If you're able to do a push onto an outside edge and hold it a bit, have your coach show you edge rolls, which are a great drill for practice, as they take you down the ice in a serpentine pattern & you can just keep going forever.

You are also right in thinking this is a "time put in" sort of skill--you have to pay your dues in practice time. Each time you skate, spend at least 10-15 minutes on your edges--you'll be surprised at how quickly they progress!

ETA: when you work on these make sure your head is up & you're looking where you're going. If you look down it will tip your whole upper body forward & the edge will never be solid.

Yes! I think coach called it a "rock-over".

Part of the problem is that I am trying to server "two masters" right now (private lesson and group lesson). The group lesson is ONLY addressing outside edges in the context of cross-overs with no other applicability or practices. And the 'boss" doing it right.

I struggle a bit (early on a LOT) with posture and yes I look down way too much. The posture is improving. This will help. When you say "look where you are going" do you mean looking "into" the turn (center of the turn) or "straight ahead"?

Joe

Well, I'd say the most convenient is to look where your skates are pointing, so you don't bump into anyone. But really, you can look wherever you want as long as it doesn't torque your torso and you AREN'T looking down.

I actually never got the hang of edge rolls, LOL. Well, I guess I have the "edge roll" part but now I'm trying to turn them into power pushes. I have a tendency to slip onto my toepick...It also doesn't help that I skate so infrequently that I've lost a lot of muscle. I went skating on Sunday (hadn't gone in a month, and before that, I hadn't gone in a month either) and my muscles just stopped being sore this morning. And most of what I was doing was stroking exercises and spins! Gack.

Crossovers can be helpful in learning how to control edges. Once you get your feet to cross over, you'll eventually learn how to push and pull with each edge. Fun stuff, it never ends. Well only if your coach is good, I guess. Some coaches never teach their students how to make their crossovers more efficient, and you can actually see it.

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"The ice is finer when the zombie goes over it!" - said by an excited 5-year-old at the rink

"The life you've led is in fact not the totality of what is possible for you." - John Partridge of Wheaton College (and a Matrix philosopher )

Try doing your crossovers in "slow motion"-- for example, hold for a count of 2 on each foot so you're getting a really good held glide in each position. That's a VERY good exercise for control. You'll probably find it easiest to look slightly inside the curve of circle you're on.

Edgework is boring, yes. Kids don't work on them often enough, yes. Adults do (mostly). They are necessary (sometimes evil) and I find them relaxing. I'm working on getting the right amount of "lean"

When you get more advanced in the crossovers, you will learn which edge you need to be on at which time (inside vs. outside) and able to hold that edge longer (front and back).

Right now, you should concentrate on balance and posture (don't look down or be stiff-legged!!!!). And spend the time on your edges and proper stroking (as a warmup).

Good Luck!!

PS-I also have 2 coaches-private and group and sometimes what they teach doesn't quite match up-I go with what the private coach tell me-I pay her more $$$$!!!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I used to think that edgework was boring until my coach really pushed me on it! Her philosophy was that if you don't feel as though you're on the edge of falling over then you're not trying hard enough It's amazing how just altering my way of thinking (instead of comfortably gliding along on decent enough edges actually PUSHING my limits) really improved my edges!

Another exercise that she had me do was to start on a hockey circle, set up, push onto an edge and spiral it down and down and down as far as I could go ... usually until I HAD to do a 3-turn at the end of it. For some sick and weird reason I really enjoyed that! You realise just how much 'swinging' you do with your body when you try and exercise like that and it really focuses you to keep that upper body still

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The best whisper is a click

Hey, *any* positive degree of lean would be good here! (By which I mean any lean in the direction of the edge, instead of away from it...) My coach is still amazed that I get and hold an outside edge with everything from the ankle upwards (well, maybe the hip) leaning away from the edge! He comments how much better I'd be if only I leant *with* the edge...but the trick is how to trust yourself enough to take yourself there...

Any hints on that, anyone??

The faster and sharper you travel around a circular path, the more you should be able to lean your gliding skate over to the outter edge side without toppling over to the side. The thing is...when you lean, it's not as if your whole body is straight and leaning like the tower of piza. You will bend to the side a bit from your hip ... a sideways hip bend so that you can get weight onto the outter edge of your gliding skate.

Inexperienced skaters will eventually be able to go around a circular path on an outter edge, but mainly around a wide diameter circle because they haven't yet ventured into the unknown.....that is, they haven't ventured out far enough to see just how much they can lean their hip over to the side while maintaining good posture and balance. Eventually, they will slowly build up to it. The more adventurous will just go for it. The really smart ones will put protective gear on so they can test their limits without fear even if they go beyond their limit.

New skaters will eventually be taught to bend at the hips sideways, which will then allow the gliding leg and the gliding skate to tip over on an angle. The upper torso must compensate for the lean by keeping the tummy etc right over the gliding skate. So basically, you'll be able to keep the bulk of your weight centred right over the gliding skate all the time.

So ... the gliding leg and company (ie including ankle and skate blade) should be leaned over at the same angle. While the upper body compensates to keep the weight straight over the gliding skate.

How funny ... I was just digging around this thread again, and other web resources, and trying to understand why all the great suggestions here resulted in mostly utter failure today. I didn't put the finishing touches on the concept of maintaining the upper body position over the skate (duh). (I knew that I was doing those weighted hip flexor exercises in the gym for a reason!)

Yea, I know, relax. Don't expect too much too fast. One thing that is becoming clear to me though, is that even though I "think" that I have good balance, that is only up to my "comfort level" wrt knee bend. As I push that limit, just normally stroking, I realize that I really have to start quad work off the ice. Ice time is just not going to get it done.

Yea, I really should get a diary going also.

Thanx

Give it time and lots of practice. Edges are your friends, but feeling comfortable in the body on an edge takes time to happen.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

I disagree with this. A good skater will be on an edge & their body will be a straight line from ankle to top of head--there should be no "break" in the body w/ the hip jutting into the circle. It takes time & practice to get this, but you shouldn't get in the habit of dropping a hip into the circle, you'll never be able to hold that position at speed & it will screw up 3 turns, etc. down the road.

I tried to find some photos for example (yes, they're all dancers!), couldn't find one head on, but you can kind of see it. Their knees are bent, but their body line is straight, no dropped hip.

http://www.ice-dance.com/photography...80404-0592.jpg

http://www.ice-dance.com/photography...Sidrov3518.jpg
(his position is great, she's too bent over. Wouldn't you kill for his extension??!!)

http://www.ice-dance.com/photography...ington5051.jpg

You aren't the only one, I love that exercise - except on BO edges......

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Hi All. It is my first time posting, I was a fairly high level singles and pairs skater, and now I am coaching while attending law school. Anyways, I have to disagree with Phoenix about the jutting your hips out versuses leaning completely into the circle. Your shoulders are always going to have to be slightly on top of your feet or else you are going to slip and fall over. The way I get my students to work on better edges is to put them on the half circles at the end of the rink where the hockey goals go. They then push and follow the half circle on two feet. While doing this get deep on the heels, and tuck your butt slightly under. Then lean into the circle by popping your hips in that direction. Once you do this, you can then gradually work on leaning your shoulders in slightly so the line is not as disconnected in your body. Once you master this, begin the steps again except this time on one foot. I think the key to a good FO edge is being secure on the heel of your blade.

I think maybe dancers are taught edges differently (as far as body position). I don't do freestyle at all, just dance & moves.

Not really... I was corrected many many times by my coach on forward crossovers - was sticking the hip out into the circle with shoulders going the other way. Those corrections have resulted in quite nice, solid XOs that were rewarded with praise on Tuesday by judges when I took the pre-juvenile MITF.

There is a difference between having a full body lean and applying a downward pressure on the "outside" shoulder for control, and bending at the hip.

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--renatele

http://www.chaleticerinks.com/robertunger.htm

This link was posted on one of skating e-mail lists. I was totally amazed at the amount of body lean! No shoulders being vertically over the feet here, for sure.

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--renatele

I agree with this, but was willing to split the difference..... A hip popped into the circle will result in a weak edge that will not hold up for advanced skating. Sorry, but this has been my own experience. Again, my experience is dance & moves, not freestyle, so you may be able to get away with it for freestyle.

My experience is to learn it right for freeskate too. I have a coach who is a real stickler for proper body lean with nothing sticking out, a lot less to correct or un-learn later.

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If you keep your eyes on God, you can walk on water.

Actually....if we think about physics, it's good to not do a full body lean, like the leaning tower of piza, unless we're going fast enough around a circular path. If we're going fast enough and sharp enough around a circular path, then we have forces that counter the lean. But if we're going slower around a circular path, we must try to keep our centre of gravity over the gliding edge of the skate, or else....no doubt about it...we'd topple over. And the way you compensate is sideways hip bend, and trying to keep upper body over the skate....or trying to adjust the body so that the weight stays mainly over the edge of the gliding skate.

So yes....if you're going fast enough and sharp enough around a circular path.....no problem if your body is leaned over. But try going slow and sharp around a circular path .... there is no way our body can be leaned over like the leaning tower of piza.

And new skaters will mainly be practising at slow speeds, in which case, it is not possible to do a leaning tower of piza lean.

That's a neat shot. To be fair, it's an inside spread eagle, which means he's got some speed/momentum 'pushing' the edge into the ice, to help support the lean. You can't do that at a turtle's pace!

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
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www.signingtime.com ~sign language fun for all!

Yes, can definitely not do a big lean / deep edge at slow speeds. But it doesn't take much lean to get a clean edge, and it can be done without dropping the hip into the circle, even if you're not flying down the ice. Watch a kid doing 3 turns in the field--they're not going fast at all, but their body is still straight. Just a nice big arc-ing curve. Better yet watch someone do figures. Very slow, definitely not dropping a hip out of line with the body!

I started a long post, but phoenix said all I wanted to say



EastonSkater: you contradicted yourself in your two posts:

(I still believe that good technique involves a full body lean, with the degree of lean dependent on speed/depth of edge).

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--renatele

Okay, wait...I think I understand what EastonSkater is trying to say. It's not a 'hip bend' exactly...you don't really 'bend' at the hip--if you do, you're certain to drop the hip, and you definitely don't want that. But if you're doing a deep enough edge (to the side, not a spread eagle), your upper body (or neck, even) will curve just the slightest bit towards vertical again....if it didn't, you'd look a bit like a dog hanging out the car window! But this isn't something you should 'try' to do...if you do, you're guaranteed to mess it up, and drop hips/shoulders all over the place. It's something that happens organically, and it is very slight.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson

www.signingtime.com ~sign language fun for all!