There isn't a huge disparity between the tests and WBP requirements for Silver and Gold. In Gold, especially with IJS, you can be competitive without an axel sometimes. Silver can do an axel, but again, you can be quite competitive without one, several people have medaled and won Silver I and II the past few years with no axels. It's Bronze where you only need a Sal and Toe loop on the test but can do up to a lutz in competition.

But even if they limit the jumps more, they're not going to say a Silver I skater can't do rockers, choctaws and counters for their footwork or have a flying camel-catchfoot spin. That's where I see the biggest improvement is, the spins and footwork. Not the jumps. So the idea of test track really dosen't help there, although I can see how it would help in Bronze.

Is the solution of a test track like event needed across all levels and classes? Where's the most disparity? Bronze III? Silver II? What levels most need to be "tweaked"?

I've only done 4 ANs, only this most recent one was at Gold. I never felt as a Silver skater I wasn't as "celebrated", for lack of a better term, as the Gold/Masters skaters. I guess what I am looking for is hearing how AN used to run, where they did do more to bring adults into the sport? How was the focus back then, compared to now? How is focusing more on the Championship skaters discouraging the Bronze and Silver skaters? If anything, through the years it's made me more focused and determined to be one of those skaters someday. I found it motivating as opposed to discouraging.

I know I keep asking a lot of questions, but I really want to try to get at the "root of the problem". If we can get back skaters who have shied away from AN for whatever reasons, I think that's a great thing!

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Again - good questions. I noticed the decline in my age group when the moves were made manditory. This added an extra burden to the competitive skaters. The money and time shifted from attending events to preparing for tests. The change in requirements also slowed and in some cases stopped the advance of skaters from level to level. Other friends with whom I use to compete, did stay with the program but then found it very discouraging after taking the tests to find themselves competing against someone who started skating at 4 and now at bronze or silver. Adult Nationls use have a spirit that set us apart from the standard track. In this we were proud to work on the tests and compete at an appropriate level and skate! After I medaled at Bronze, I moved up, and until I did, I did not compete at Nationals in bronze again. The mindset of the standard track - to put off testing to compete below your level was not the case with adults. Even the older kids skating then were usually responsible enough to test themselves to the proper level.

I believe what encouraged adults to participate in the events was the fun and sense of fellowship among the skaters. We all attended eachother's events, be them 8:00am or 11:00pm. Over the years the character of the event has changed significantly. This last AN, with it's exceptional LOC was more like the early events.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Actually, on the Silver test, the hardest required jump is a flip. And on the Bronze test, you also need a loop (well, one other single rev jump other than sal or toe).

This is an issue everywhere. Some adult skaters, particularly Silver and Gold, are a lot more advanced in their moves relative to their FS. The only thing for the skaters less advanced in MIF to do is work on their MIF. Even if you're never (or not for a while) going to test rockers and counters, you can still learn them. A lot of kids I skate with have turns in their programs that they haven't learned in MIF yet - the coaches just teach them the turn and say "this is a ____." I don't see that a lot with adults - most coaches will put in what an adult skater can already do, but there's no reason you can't discuss this with your coach(es) when you get your program and ask them to challenge you.

I competed in Pre-Bronze FS once with a skater who obviously skated as a kid. This was the old Class I (25-35) and I was 33 - this woman looked barely 25. She only did sal, toe, and waltz-toe, but they were very high jumps, and she did an Ina Bauer and a change-of-edge spread eagle that took up about half the length of the ice. Great speed and flow. Of course she was at the wrong level, but this was when returning skaters were still required to take adult MIF and FS tests to qualify to compete, so she likely just hadn't taken the Bronze (or Silver) tests. She may have just not tested in her previous skating experience (or maybe she only tested dance?) or maybe did ISI, or may have really tested higher in FS than she should have to be eligible for Pre-B, but this was a non-qual event, and therefore was basically on the honor system as far as eligibility. Was it fair to me and the other skater? Well, not really - I'll never forget this woman's smile (think proverbial cat that swallowed the canary) when I came off the ice after my program - I skated last and didn't see the others until I got the video, but she skated first so she presumably watched both of us - she knew she was going to win b/c next to her, we looked like, well, beginners, which is who Pre-B is for - I've never seen her again at any comp, though, so maybe she had her fill of beating up on the non-sandbaggers and went on her merry way.)

But my point is, you can't control what happens at a comp or who competes against you and whether they should be there or not. So you either have to improve your skating enough to be more competitive against the people at your level or else don't compete. And by "don't compete", I don't mean don't skate - there are plenty of other things to work on in skating and enjoy.

Well, I've never been to AN and haven't been skating that long, but my guess is that, as with most things, the novelty has worn off. When AN was first created, I'm sure there was a lot of excitement and a lot of adults that wanted to show support for such a comp, so they entered in droves. But I suspect that now, a lot of those skaters have moved on - either they're not skating anymore due to various life issues, or skating less, or they've decided not to compete, for whatever reason. I think the increase in 'returning' skaters may be discouraging both old and new adult-onset skaters from competing, but I don't think that's the only factor. AN is expensive, and it's likely that many people don't enter unless they feel they can be competitive, or maybe they enter once and that's it, so the result is skaters tend to be at the high end of their level's comp standard, which discourages newbies, and so on... I think it would be interesting to look at numbers of adults competing locally (before the economy started tanking) and see if that has changed significantly over the years.

And I don't think the increase in returning kids is solely the result of the USFSA rule changes (which I assume have all originated in the Adult Committee?). I think with the growth of the adult program, more and more kids are seeing that as a viable way to continue their skating after college, and more adults who may have stopped skating for a while are deciding to come back and participate - at least, that's what I've picked up from reading the Skating Mag profiles and the AN articles.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

To clarify this for those who are challenged in understanding a pretty basic statement in it's proper context:

"Then it's just a step closer to being a truely 'national' competition [for adults]as opposed to a giant scale 'local' event"."

If some are truely serious about a 'test track for adults', go ahead and send that to the new adult committee! IMHO Older adults ARE protected from kid skaters. They are called age group 2-5.

As to whether AN is shrinking, I think the data suggests that it fluctuates pretty much in line with general economic conditions and how ever remote the location is from larger population centers...no exact correlations of course. (& I qualify this next statement by saying that AN is far from the sole focal point of being an adult skating) - So what if AN IS shrinking? So what? 800 competitors is virtually unmanagable and from what I heard, the 400+ this year seems to have contributed to about the best event ever! The real problem in adult skating is with shrinking participation from the younger age groups (in all competitions - everywhere) and the aging of the long timers in the older age groups - no new blood coming in there!, so I say WELCOME KID SKATERS!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think that was the point, exactly. Many have said there's a big difference in skill from a skater in Silver II or III that started at age 30, than one that started at 8, quit in college or whenever, and returned again at age 30. I'm just throwing out numbers as examples here.

Is the Class I age group shrinking? Like I said, I've only been doing it for 4 years, but my first AN had 6 in Silver II and it's grown a lot from there Only 2 Gold I girls last year and this year there were 7 (one scratched).

Pairman did make me think..is a bigger AN better? Bigger means more days, longer days, more time away from work and family If AN was so big it started on Tuesday and ended Saturday night, I can bet you people wouldn't be pleased. Sure, you don't have to stay the whole time but that's most of the fun of it. Did AN have 800 competitors ever? I worked at the rink in Marlboro, MA when AN was there and it was certainly big but not THAT big.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I beleive one or two of the AN's at lake placid were at about 800

My main point is that AN does not define 'adult skating' - as in, if I can't go to AN and be 'competitve', I'm quitting skating altogether....I don;t think that really defines very many, if anyone, out there....or maybe it does

"Then it's just a step closer to being a truely 'national' competition [for adults]as opposed to a giant scale 'local' event"."
We understand this is for adults. Anyone who believes this is not a "national" competition may want to enter the standard events if they are more in line with their beliefs as to what a "national" event should be.

AN may not defne adult skating for some, but it is clearly a major component for many of us. No one wants to keep out the kids, or the aging kids - yes, they do get out of age group 1, but to not discourage new adult skaters from starting. If not the "400" left will be 400 aged kids and 2 adult skaters.


Debbie - I think the novelty may have worn off, as you say for some of the skaters begining when I did, but the change in makeup of the early age groups is not due to that, or it would be equal for both groups. I believe fewer adult skaters (starting as adults) is due to the test burden (4 now vs. 1 or 2) and the decline in continuation of adult skaters is due to the added test burden and the returning kid factor.

The point is not to keep the returning skaters out, but to encourage them to test to and thus compete at their correct level.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

[quote=flo;The point is not to keep the returning skaters out, but to encourage them to test to and thus compete at their correct level.[/quote]

this has been my coach's focus since I she became my coach, but we have had setbacks (i.e. correcting previous bad teaching, then my injury).

Theoretically I could compete USFS as a no-test but that wouldn't be right. The plan is for me to test sometime this next season and maybe (shhhh! just a maybe out there) do HC 2009 or another USFS at the pre-bronze/bronze level. This would be a HUGE change for me from the mostly-kid ISI comps but I think a very refreshing one. I'm just glad there are no big changes in the adult pre-bronze test since I started preparing for it years ago (has it been that long?)

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

What an interesting discussion, and thanks for the mature approach.

Stormy, you do bring in some interesting questions. I think the introduction of moves has had a huge change, as well as the rules that have made Adult Nationals become "more competitive." The one thing we are losing is the idea that, as soon as you pass your bronze free test, you are "qualified" to compete at Adult Nationals. Several times I have had to correct bronze-level skaters I've met along the way who thought they weren't "good enough" to compete at ANs.

What I'm seeing quite a bit in the Class I's is the remnant of kid skating in that your moves are several levels higher than your freestyle, and I think it's why you see such strong skating in Bronze and Silver I--many of those skaters continued with synchro, dance, or moves while they struggled with a freestyle element or two.

Meanwhile, we also have skaters who are just passing the moves tests that correspond to the level. It is a huge disparity, but limiting the moves tests of lower freestyle levels (which I advocated five years ago) would also deprive us of some great skaters who are most definitely coming down with AOSS.

Now, I think if we had the qual groups separated by skating level (moves/dance/test dates) vs the other methods (age, random), the playing fields would be more even--and you never know what can happen in the SuperFinal!

That is exactly where I am now.

I medaled in Bronze I at AN08 but due to various issues (health, work, life in general), I haven't passed my Silver tests yet. I also have not competed in freestyle since AN 08. If I get my Silver test program together, I'll probably skate up at a few local competitions but will definitely NOT compete in Bronze again at ANs, even if that means just doing interps or solo dance at ANs.

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I've got mad salchow disease!

Yeah, test track requirements won't solve anything. Limit the elements in silver to what is required for the test, you won't her me complain, and it still won't stop me from doing rockers, choctaws, and twizzles to my heart's content. It wouldn't push me into gold either, because I don't have an axel yet. No axel, no gold test. And trust me, I'm trying to get it.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Not really. You get returning kid skaters in every age class. To give a hypothetical example, you could have a kid who skated from age 5-18, quit skating, then started back up again at age 35. That person clearly has an advantage over the skater in her age class who started at 29. You could pick her out of the group in a heartbeat.

re: age groups and fairness, Well opinion on that is clearly divided about that as people from both sides of the arguement have spoken up about this in recent discussions on the forums here. However it's not just 'kid skaters' that threaten what others perceive as fairness. As skateguard implied, what about the large segment of skaters (kids especially) that test well ahead in their moves? For example, if doubles are unattainable or inconsistent for a skater why would it be a problem for them to improve something else instead? At a certain point, don't we just consider that learning to be a better skater? Isn't that what judges want to see more then anything? Just throwing that out for consideration.

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea. I think an older Silver adult, with Silver moves is more equal to a young adult with silver moves, than two of the same age where one only has Silver Moves and the other has novice!

I haven't passed my bronze test yet, but I hope to by adult nationals next year. I'm still a "I"- but I am definitely adult start. I have major injuries in my past to contend with and am not an "athlete". I've met bronze skaters who started as children (though more are Silver) who had axels as kids, but not tests. I am at a very similiar level to another skater of my same level (bronze moves, pre-bronze fee) and she's 20 years older than me. Local competitions don't have enough adults to have levels so no-test competes against silver, and everyone else (I don't think there are gold skaters around here) at all the ones I've seen. Placement has always been by test. The reason I want to compete at adult nationals is to compete against people at my own level. But it doesn't really sound like that would happen.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

"and from what I heard, the 400+ this year seems to have contributed to about the best event ever! "

No. From those of us who were there, we saw that this LOC could have handled any crowd. They were prepared, did their homework and were also made up of adults who exemplify the adult program.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Oops, I was referring within age groups. Of course, then we would need enough skaters in each group to have qual rounds...

I was very much like you, starting at 22 and taking my first USFSA test the day before my 25th birthday (back when adult started at 25). Keep at it, and I can't wait to see you at ANs!

Ironically, I am on both sides of this issue. I am barely above a "test-level" silver, mainly because I just passed my silver free last year, right before having a major health issue. On the flip side, I have done a lot of social dancing in the past couple years. I can social dance up to the American (first silver) and have played with the tango and blues. However, my tests qualify me to compete in pre-bronze dance. I know many primarily "social" dancers who, if attracted to do ANs, would qualify significantly lower than their abilities, mainly because they have never tested....

High moves tests aren't everything competitively. Passing my Junior Moves two years ago didn't stop me from finishing 9th out of 11 in Silver 1 at this year's ANs.

So here are a couple thoughts (and I'm not targeting any one person, I'm just putting it up for discussion):

1. Why can someone who has passed their Gold moves, compete below Gold level freestyle? The last time I checked, a freestyle program has jumps, spins AND footwork. Does it make sense to limit the freestyle elements at the lower levels, but not the footwork executed?

2. The main beef I have with freestyle elements being limited at my level is that (for some strange reason) I can execute a fast flying camel, but my lutz is just so-so (always been a pretty good spinner, but not a strong jumper). Recently, they made the rule of no flying spins at Bronze level.....sigh....wish that could've been no lutzes at Bronze ;->. Anyway, they took away the one advanced spin that I had in my arsenal!!!!

3. What would happen if we limited the components allowed in each competition level to the components required at the corresponding test level (ie., Bronze moves at Bronze, Silver moves at Silver, etc....ISI does this I believe). This doesn't change the problem we have with returning kid skaters, but I can tell you that I would be much more motivated by seeing the same moves that I did in competition, maybe better executed, then I am by seeing someone competing at my level with Novice moves. The former is much more reachable for me with some hard work.

4. With the introduction of Adult MIF, I have definitely seen a higher level of skating at my level (bronze/silver). So then, tell me again why aren't we allowing Pre-Bronze at Adult Nationals? Maybe we could encourage more participation at AN if we included this group?

5. I really enjoy AN being all-inclusive. It was built that way from the beginning. I'm pretty sure that I remember the main USFSA headline about Adult Nationals was the huge number of starts we had back then. We could totally brag about how adult skating was becoming huge and that we had this one place where we could all get together.....so the answer to "so what if AN is only 400 starts?" is exactly what Flo said earlier.....and the sheer number of participants is part of what made AN great. It made you feel like you were part of something big. Don't get me wrong, 400 is still a lot, but I think AN numbers dwindling is a definite concern.

Would that put dancers or synchro skaters at a disadvantage since they focus on MITF and those discipline tests, but may not be as strong in Freestyle? Would putting a limit, say "max. one MITF test ahead" be achievable or would it shut out skaters who've focused on MITF and Ice Dance, for example?

ISI Freestyle tests include the required "dance step sequence" in the skills for the test. They don't have separate MITF testing. Once you pass ISI Delta, you can do any/all of the tracks with no restrictions. (Figures, Dance, Couples, Pairs, Freestyle, etc.)

This is a great conversation, everyone. Thanks for contributing. Please continue to do so.

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Interesting idea of limiting jumps/spins/ and moves for competition. Keeping up with the levels and elements would be interesting as well.

I do like AN being inclusive. We're adults and for the majority of us, we have adult lives with all that comes with them. We're not able to spend the time and often the $$ that the kids/parents put forth. We enter fewer events, and as such we do want our events to be a great experience. This of course doesn't mean we all expect to medal, but we do expect a reasonable opportunity.

What really needs to be encouraged is, like Flying Camel, each skater testing and competing at the proper level. More publicity in the Skating magazine on what adult skaters are doing at each level, and yes if they are adults or returning kids could bring this to the attention of the skaters as well as the coaches.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

To put this in perspective, at least 3 of the ladies that placed above you have passed (or are currently taking) their SENIOR moves.

Simply put, because they have not passed the Gold FS test. The moves and FS tests require different elements. In the USFS system, passing moves does not qualify a skater in freestyle.
Who has passed Senior moves? As far as I know, there are several of us who have passed Junior and are actively working on Senior. And if they have, that's great. Good for them for bringing competition to the event. I was beaten by people who have high level moves ... AND by skaters who have only Silver moves. All I'm saying is, having a high level moves test does not necessarily guarantee competitive freestyle success, and for that reason, moves tests should not be the basis for excluding skaters.

The logistical problem with this is that you need a MIF test passed before you can pass the next freestyle test, so somebody in Silver who wants to move up to Gold has to pass the Gold MIF test first, and then the Gold free. Limiting the MIF to the same level as the free would prevent this skater from competing at all in between passing the moves test and the corresponding freestyle test, unless they skated up a level (which isn't allowed at some competitions). I had a full year in between my gold MIF and free tests.

I don't think that moves tests should be limited, because one of the great things about skating is that there is an avenue for everybody to continue working and improving, whether it be freestyle, moves, dance or synchro. Right now, my moves and free are the same level (just having passed gold free and failed intermediate moves) but I hope to pass some higher moves tests in the future. However, I doubt I would ever be ready to move up to standard track freestyle. Double jumps just aren't really happening for me, at least yet, and I'm not getting any younger. If further moves tests were off-limits for me, It would eliminate a whole part of skating that I want to explore and improve upon. I don't begrudge the skaters at my level with awesome moves - watching them just makes me motivated to get better, because it's something that could realistically happen, rather than getting a bielmann spin or a double loop, which probably won't happen.

IMHO, MIF should be taken into consideration when determining Interp levels.

If you've passed 1 Silver dance, you have to skater Masters Interp, so why not have a similar rule for MIF?

Something like, if you've passed Gold FS, Intermediate MIF and/or 1 Silver dance, you must skate Masters interp.

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I've got mad salchow disease!

Yeah, I know 3 out of the 4 Silver I medalists, and only 1 of them is working on Senior MIF.

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I've got mad salchow disease!