I don't fall nearly often enough but I have two types of fall. The first is with a great flurry of flailing arms and feet, usually a bounce or a slide accompanied by peals of laughter. Coaches wander by to see what smart-a@@ remark I have this time. The other type is silent, then the coaches rush over because they know something isn't good. So far (14 months) I have only cracked a rib, sprained an ankle, and damaged a shoulder. Not to fear - will start jumps one day soon and add to the list

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Dianne
(A.O.S.S.? Got it BAD! )

It's probably just the English teacher in me coming out, but every time I see the word "Adult" in quotation marks in posts about Adult Skating, I think "Adult" as in the euphemism for "XXX-Rated" or pornographic, movies, websites or bookstores. I'm an Adult skater, not an "Adult" skater. Believe me, there's nothing obscene about what I do on the ice.

Well I don't have any cute falls. When I go down, I go down hard. But I don't know if that is an age thing - my daughter takes hard falls - she scares people when she goes down - it's even kind of a joke at both the clubs she's skating at about how hard she falls - she, however can get up and take it.

The fact that I don't have easy falls is probably why I don't like to take risks.

j

well, since i got accused of "generalizing" i guess i should say i didn't mean to insinuate ALL skating moms dislike ALL adult skaters. i'm genuinely glad that some of you find support from the skating parents. it's great that you get to skate at 3 different rinks, and no one gives you a hard time. that has not been my experience (at our tiny rink), or the experience of some other adult skaters i've talked to. that's all i was saying.

also, i don't know about anywhere else, but the adult session here is not a freestyle - it's twice a week from 10:30-11:00, during school hours, well after the many morning freestyles available, and before the public session starts. it gets canceled during the summer and for all school holidays. i fail to see the harm in that.

i'm proud of learning something completely new, and i'm proud of all of us adult skaters who work so hard. i'm amazed at all of you who are doing doubles, which i've just started, and fancy high-level spins, which i would like to do someday. i hope to skate for a long time, and good luck to you all.

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The skating may not sparkle, but my dress sure does!

Just passed: Pre-Bronze MIF & Freeskate. Next goal: Bronze tests in July.

I actually get less concern about how hard I fall, because I'm not bursting out in tears like some of the kids do.

Touche'! I tend to overuse quotation marks myself, but my DH had an employee once who positively abused them! He once left a note that read: (Spelling and punctuation are his, not mine)

As a training specialist, former competitive adult skater, a current recreational adult skater, and a coach of both child and adult skaters, I say pffffth! to the theory that everyone's the same.

Different people learn in different ways - if you tell me a story, I'll remember most of it for a long time. Give me a statistic and it's gone by lunchtime. Same thing with skating - I now remember to LOOK while doing power back crossover patterns because my coach told me a story about a kid who slammed into someone due to NOT looking. There is a huge difference between learning as an adult and learning as a child. I see it in my students - while some kids are fearful, they've got nothing on the adults. There are very few reckless adults - clueless and in their own world, yes - but not reckless.

Adult freestyles serve an even more important purpose: socialization. It's nice to skate with people your own age and make friends (almost) your own height. While kids are fun to talk to and skate with, I work harder when I'm with adult who watch where they're going and show courtesy. Many young skaters are courteous (especially the ones on this Board), but I've rarely come across adult skaters who were.

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Good discussion, Casey! As an adult skater myself, I will add my 0.02 here:

I respectfully disagree that adults & kid skaters are the same for a coupla reasons:

1.) Kids skaters don't have to deal with giving birth to anything. I don't think we need to discuss the toll that takes on a woman's body.

2.) Adults are generally heavier than kids. Falls can be more devastating when working on higher-level elements when you have more momentum hitting the ice. Getting higher in the air for a double jump is harder when you have 50-100 more lbs. to get up in the air. As a teen, my dad put me in charge of heaving 50 lb bags of bird seed around the yard so I saw firsthand what 50 lbs felt like. eek. Not my fav. teen chore, that's for sure!

3.) Weight loss is more difficult as an adult (vs. the kids who are still growing).

But you are right about the fact that we do share some similarities too:

1.) Kids have school & homework, adults have work. No issue there!

2.) General costs of skating are expensive, no matter what level!

Do I think adult-only FS sessions are needed? I think that needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. While I have been lucky with my FS sessions (I have skated with the kids for over 7 yrs with no problems!), I know not every club is as accepting of adult skaters. I tend to just go with the flow....just let me work with my coach & skate my sessions, and I don't complain about anything!

Cheers!

Yeah, I think this is kinda what I'm trying to get at. I don't really like having adult-specific things, because it seems like "whoa nelly, you're one of them there "adults", eh? We better get you off to the adult reservation!"

Yeah we're a bit different average-wise but I guess the point I'm getting at is that it's not enough to justify having one page with an article about "regular" skaters, and another with a pretty equivalent article about adult skaters. Instead there should be one article, and if it does address things that are age-specific, it should do it in passing within the single article without focusing on it, in my opinion.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Heh, well that's true.

Okay, gotta argue that one. We also have a lot stronger muscles... I don't see many kids, even the really good ones, getting all that much height in their jumps. I do see a lot of doubles and even triples done with very little height and a whole lot of snap. It's the older, senior-level skaters that really go sailing. I can get great height in jumps, but I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to figure out how to get the body position just right fast enough to pull off a double.

Yep...if I only skated the available adult sessions, I wouldn't be skating much at all. Unfortunately, having them available changes the general attitude of everyone who regularly goes to the rink to more of a "you have your sessions, this one is ours" mindset in the non-adults, which I feel is unhealthy.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Casey, maybe this is something that's peculiar to your area?

What did you end up doing re: skating vs. work vs. place to live? Where are you skating now?

I agree with you about the articles - I don't rally see why the Adult skater should get a focus in US Figure Skating any more than the "average skater" should have an article written about them - it would be nice I guess to see more articles about the "average-skater in general" than there are...

Just some mindless ramblings here...

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Maybe it's different at rinks in other regions/countries, but every standard freestyle session I've ever skated at across perhaps 10 rinks, has never felt "aimed at youths". Do you have a specific reason for that belief, or is it just a perceptive? Yes, in freestyle sessions, the majority is usually youths, but I'm not sure why that's a problem, or why it would make adults feel excluded.

Yeah, well I think that's because it targets the competitive folks (and by that I don't just mean "those who want to compete", but "those who desire to be the best"). While ANs are a valid and great competition to have, they are a lower-level than and not nearly as sought-after as regular Nationals so they don't get the same attention. While I like Skating magazine having an article talking about ANs when they happen, I don't think they should focus any less on the more popular stuff, nor have adult-specific content because it just perpetuates the notion that we should be treated differently, which I think will just increase youth skaters disrespect for adult skaters.

I guess I don't see the need for adult-specific events at all, as long as we're welcomed to standard ones... I can understand that maybe we weren't being welcomed, and in that case, the complaints were well-justified, but they've been answered wrongly - rather than working to eliminate age discrimination, it's been answered with segregation.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Nah, my area seems pretty good compared to the other stuff I hear. I've never felt unwelcome on any session (hence why I have to wonder if it's just a matter of false perception). The only things I have seen that are negative aren't specific to the area, like overprotective parents and adult skaters berating me for "almost" killing them...

I'm still in Seattle. It's a great place to skate. I'm not complaining about my area at all.

Yeah! Exactly. I think most folks have wrongly associated kids with high-level, and adults with average. But you can have average kids and high-level adults, and the articles should suit the entire range without focus on age in my opinion.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I understood your point . . . like an Adult skater is a totally different breed . . .

And my other take on the quotations was yeah, right . .. "adult" aka "allgrownup" skaters . . . I still don't feel like an "allgrownup" adult, although I'm pushing 40 . . . still seems funny to me that *I* am the one signing permission slips and writing notes to my kids' teachers . . .

Oh Casey you really are naive aren't you?

When I say aimed at youths I mean, that since the majority of skaters are youngsters and almost all rinks are geared up towards competitive youngsters, (even those with mostly recreational youngsters who don't compete much) then those (youngsters) are the ones that are expected at any freestyle session. Now if it doesn't specifically have an age limit then of course adults could and should join but the 'youths' don't need to ask for one since they would use and be expected to use it anyway.

Segregation by age is endemic in the sport, indeed in many sports. Look at the kid's 'opens' - you often have the lower levels divided by age (eg over 10 and under 10) and that is perfectly fine, given enough participants, since a 5 year old is going to skate differently - even if nominally the same level- to a 12 year old. Similarly a 35 year old is going to skate differently to a 10 year old so I see no reason why there should not be age groups for adults too.

Indeed at Adult championships there are often splits by age, though the age ranges tend to be wider than in the kids comps e.g up to 35, 35 to 50 and 50 and over. There are many variations and you can argue til the cows come home where the splits should be or whether there should be splits at all.

In the UK adult dance champ this year I believe they have done away with age splits altogether which means that I, as an adult learner in her 40's may end up competing against someone who learnt in their teens and is only 25, or even worse, a former freestyler who has just taken up dance so is still at a low level in testing. I have done this (competing against a level 8 free style person at a low level dance comp) and it is disheartening as really there is no way you can compete. At least if you have the option of an adult comp with age splits you know you have some chance of being competitive and that is much more motivating.

I totally agree that adults, if they believe they are competitive, should be able to compete in the kids championships. A few years ago a 36 year old adult learner (who started I think in her 20's) did just that in the UK coming 11th of 12 in the senior championships (solo dance). I think it is no longer possible to do this.

The other thing you seem to forget is that for the majority of adults, having started late they are never going to get to a very high level and yet through adult national championships they get the opportunity to compete on a national level with others who have similar constraints since the adult championships start from the lowest levels all the way to masters. As mentioned above, only 1 adult learner in the UK reached a sufficient standard to compete in the national dance championships with the 'elite'. In free skating I doubt there was anybody (indeed there are age limits on the lower levels of the championships that many kids cannot reach).

Adult competition also serves to keep a lot of kids in the sport as they get older. Those who cannot reach the standards for the national championships used to have nowhere to go after 18. We have quite a few kids of that age in our club who can't wait to be able to compete in the adult championships as it gives them an opportunity to continue to compete in the sport they love with other like minded individuals. And no they don't want to keep on competing with the competitive 10 year olds either, complete with (horrible generalisation coming up!) #####y skate moms and competitive stress.

(edited to add - oops I didn't realise this board was so prudish...what else am I supposed to call the 'b*t**y skate mums' who do exist - though thankfully relatively few in number where I am. Does it mean something worse things in America than in UK?)

Would I want to compete at level 1 with 5 year olds, 10 year olds or even young teens? No not really. Would I like to compete against other adults at my level with whom you can have a decent conversation and be friendly as well as competitive - yes definitely. And you can substitute any sport you like for skating and the answer would be the same.

I did actually beat a teenager in a competition once (a club improvisation comp) and I felt so bad for her after, and that is another reason to keep seperate - it is very demotivating for a kid to be beaten by an adult - I think she gave up skating. Don't want that on my conscience really!

More coverage of grass roots skaters at all levels and all ages would be nice but don't let's throw the baby out with the bathwater here!

Lastly - sorry about the length of this!- I do know of skate mothers who believe adults should not be taking up the same ice as their precious darlings. One even told me that she instructed her daughter never to give way to adults even if they had their music on and this is at what is actually a pretty adult-friendly rink (we run the biggest adult open in the UK).

I only had parents say this to me a few times. I wanted to quit, but thought if I did they would win.

Most come up to me and are really nice and just as supportive to me as they are to their kids.


i just never understood what makes an adult of any age less an of important skater then a kid.

Heck I know a lady she is 76 and skates and dude I love rooting for her. its so awesome.

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Check out the sites I run
http://www.joelisi.net
http://www.charlieday.net

I've had a skating mom who asked me if I was married and when I said yes, she said "Why don't you just go and have a child and have your daughter skate for you instead?" My nice but "I'm insulted" answer is "What? And miss out on all the fun??? I don't think so!!!"

And of course, I have a skating niece that I've known since skating school and I met her when she was 10-11. She's now 18 and one of the coaches at my rink. She likes calling me "Auntie" b/c I've known her over the years and I'm always doing jumps and spins along with her and her friends when she's skating. I'm quite proud to be called "Auntie" by her and got a chance to watch her grow up to become the lovely young lady she is now.

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Batikat,

I take it that you skate in the UK, and I honestly can't say I know what that's like, but I can share with you about the "age" stuff regarding my rink. I've passed my adult Silver FS & it is my level that determines the ice I am allowed to be on. Nothing about age segregation and most of the Detroit (Michigan) area rinks do the same. It's based on levels only (lower levels like basic thru prelim or pre-juv have their own ice vs. Juvenile thru Senior). If you are "good enough" to pass the higher level tests, you are on that higher level ice. It is more of a detriment to have a 12 yr old working on triples on the same ice with a 12 yr old who is working on edges since the lower level skater will literally "get in the way" and it can be very dangerous for both skaters.

Don't know if that helps, but it's just the way they do it around here.

I've never encountered this attitude, at least not to my face. Can't say I really care though. My money is just as green as theirs and I paid for my ice just like they did.

Hi Kristin
Thanks for the info although the age segregation I was referring to was not for patches but for open competitions where there are often splits by age within the levels at comps and often an upper age limit which excludes most adults (depending on your definition - over 18years but high level skaters tend to be referred to as 'elites' here. Not sure what the maximum age for open comps is but Championship level comps do have maximum age limits at each level.)

At our rink we dont have any segregation whatsoever on most patches (skate sessions) which can be a problem with clueless beginner 6 year olds and clueless beginner adults alike, mingling with 'elites' doing doubles and triples etc. There is a level limit to some of the patches but not many and that seemed to be basically introduced to keep the learn to skate kids/adults out of the way of our top skater (not at our rink now). When you add in the couples dancers and solo dancers it can be a real madhouse!

Our club patches (different to rink patches) do have a bit of level segregation but not much. On our main club session it was the head coach who first introduced a seperate club group lesson for the adults but the club has now agreed that those adults who wish to may skate with their appropriate level group lesson rather than the adult group.

Our rink is hosting a skate camp in the summer and the free coach has agreed that adults may take part but the dance coach has said she doesn't want adults

Almost every rink seems to arrange things their own way so it's hard to generalise.

There seem to be a lot more rinks in the US that have level segregated patches but maybe it depends how much ice time they have available.

Many rinks that serious about figure skating have sessions split up by test level/ability. Even if you have skaters that haven't tested up to their level, sometimes they will put them on appropriate sessions so that it is safer for all skaters on the ice.

It can definitely be dangerous when you have a mix of skaters from toddler to high level skaters working on triples, and really bad accidents can happen.

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Keep Evolving. "From this moment forward, every voice that told you - You Can't - , has been silenced." - Freedom Writers

This thread started with the discussion of why it is difficult for adults to get to advanced levels, and Two words came to mind today , namely:

"Violent" and "Aggressive".

Yeah, I know - for such a graceful looking sport, that's precisely the oomph needed to get to advanced jumps/spins/moves to work in figure skating. They just don't work from skating gently into the element or by sliding off the top of the ice surface.

There are days when it's pretty FREAKING scary as SH*T to learn how to do advanced spins and jumps. I think the older we get the harder to take the plunge.

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Keep Evolving. "From this moment forward, every voice that told you - You Can't - , has been silenced." - Freedom Writers

My theory (worth what you'd expect from a skater who can barely land a single sal on a good day with a following wind) is it's more than just more weight to vault into the air. It's a combination of height and mass that just makes physical laws apply more strongly. Kids can do things much more sloppily, inertia doesn't notice them as much and they haven't gotten the gravity memo yet.

-Liz

I have heard many adults say "I'm too old to learn to skate" My question is: Where did this misconception or myth arise from? (and I think this is where this whole debate is rooted in "Adult skating") I tend to believe that our own figure skating governing body has created this over time. (and news media too) Many adults who don't skate think that if they are over 13 that it is too late. There have been threads started here with the question "How old is too old to learn to skate?"

Another thing, in my opinion is that by creating an adult track aside from a standard track basically our own US figure skating body has created this debate (I am not sure about Canada and UK) USFSA has esentially said "Well, yes, adults can learn to skate, but we'll make it easier because you have no chance in Hades of ever competing at a national level anyway. (being a little sarcastic here, but at least it is a good thing that one can cross over once you get to the novice level... ).

On the other spectrum, yes we can choose which track we would like to test/compete in. I have heard of skaters testing in both the standard US and Adult tracks.

For me, skating is my own sport. I will make it what I want it to be. I own it. (sure as heck pay enough for it too!) It is mine. I tell people I am a figure skater, and just end it there.
well, that's my ramble for now.
~sk8pdx

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"Occasionally in life there are those moments of unutterable fulfillment which cannot be completely explained by those symbols called words. Their meanings can only be articulated by the inaudible language of the heart." ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

At least that's one less thing we have to worry about in the UK since we only have standard track which everyone does unless you are a very competitive skater at a high level at an early age when there is a competitive option. NISA UK seem to have recognised that lots of kids want to compete and skate but arent' going to make it to qualify for a national championships and have even instituted a national championship for them (sort of like a non-qualifying championship). I think this is great and perhaps another reason I don't have a problem with an Adult Championship seperate from the 'elite' championship since there is also a 'kids' championship seperate from the elite
'I'm going to the Olympics..' type kids. Makes sense and allows everyone to compete with their peers whether by age or level.

Would probably be more difficult to do in the US due to sheer weight of numbers.

I also don't think there should be an adult track with lower standards and would be against it in the UK - as someone said above - you've either reached the level or you haven't and if you haven't you compete at a lower level. This is from someone who swore as an adult she'd never learn to jump and have both feet off the ice at the same time but ended up doing it (due to test changes which negated my low level free test) and loving it. Never thought I'd be able to get level 1 even but am contemplating taking level 2 soon, (salchow, toe-loop all with flow, backspin (my nemesis) sitspin maybe loop can't remember etc) .Amazing what a bit of motivation can do.

Having said that I do think some judges in the UK are more lenient with adults but especially at the lower levels they can be lenient with kids too. In fact the variation in judging standards in tests is something of a pet peeve with me at the moment and it applies to kids as much if not more than adults.

I'm both, generally speaking. Not just in skating. Once I took a swing at someone with a solid metal bar with the intent to mush their brains (they had it coming), I beat a full-grown man off me who'd tried to rape/murder/whatever me when I was 14 and again when I was 16 and I had detention nearly every day for physically fighting with boys at school. Not to mention my girl friends were all either into kickboxing, freefighting, or doing judo on nationals level. I've also shot just about every type of firearm you can think of, short of uzi's and ak-47's.

It's the reason I like skating and not just any sport I could be doing. I like the adrenaline rush from the falls and the landings.