Coach's duties at competition

[Ice T]

Just curious.......what exactly does your coach do for you at competitions? What makes you feel like they have earned their fee?

I'm frustrated with my coach right now, so I want to know what others are getting out of their coaches at competitions.

[vesperholly]

A good coach will can calm your nerves, get you organized beforehand, guide your warm-up, hold your stuff (guards, water bottle, jacket), and provide you with fair insight after your performance. I like to have my coach there so we can talk about what I did well, what I need to work on, and gauge my progress. Coaches can provide constructive criticism because it is their job and you expect it from them. Sometimes if friends put you out, they don't want to say anything mean to make you nervous or feel bad afterwards, so you won't get the truth from them ("You were so graceful when you fell on that toe loop"). My coaches both charge the price of one lesson when they stand with you at a competition.

A bad coach shows up late, doesn't seem to pay any attention to you in warm-up or during the event, or care how you did. They probably won't care to discuss the competition afterwards, either.

I don't particularly like competing without my coach, but I've done it several times and it wasn't disastrous. The worst part about that is not having someone who really knows you and your skating around to console or congratulate.

Jocelyn

[skaternum]

Tangent: I actually prefer to compete without a coach. I know; I'm weird. Having a coach there makes it seem like a Big Deal, and I skate better when I tell myself it's just another skate.

But as for the original question, I think a good coach typically does these things for a competition:

** Before anything** reads the @#$%&! competition announcement and makes sure the skater is entered in the right events and that their program adheres to the requirements in the announcement!!!!! (You'd be amazed. sigh.)

1. Attends agreed-upon practice sessions and actively coaches during them. If the skater has multiple students practicing, divides time fairly.
2. Before the event, makes sure skater has registered & turned in music.
3. Before the event, double checks to make sure the skater has costume, spare music copy, etc.
4. Makes sure skater has checked in (or checks skater in) with the ice monitor.
5. Keeps an eye on the schedule and makes sure the skater is ready at the right time.
6. Makes sure skater has removed guards before taking the ice.
7. Actively coaches during the warmup.
8. Makes sure skater has re-removed guards and/or jacket before competing.
9. Provides appropriate feedback after the event.
10. Makes sure skater picks up tape at the end of the event.

Depending on the whether the skater is a kid or adult (and whether the adult has control issues :oops: or self-esteem issues) some of this may be overkill. It really depends on the skater. I'm quite capable of handling the logistics of getting dressed, registering, checking in with the monitor, etc. and get a little peeved if someone tries to do them for me.

Notice I didn't include "makes you feel good" and "says positive things" stuff on the list. I think the psychological approach the coach should take depends entirely on the skater. Most skaters really want positive reinforcement at a comp; others need to have a fire lit under the behinds. I don't want my coach suddenly becoming a "cotton candy" coach on me at a comp if that's not our usual relationship.

When my coach is around (like for test sessions), I do get lots of positive strokes from him/her. I, personally, find that helpful. Others don't.

[BABYSKATES]

We have incredibly busy coaches who have top competitors at each level. Our main coaches only come to important events. We might not see them until a couple of minutes before the warm up begins. What I expect (as the parent of a juvenile level child) the coach will do is be specific as to when he will meet my daughter, tell us what he expects us to do on our own prior to meeting him (checking in, turning in tapes, skates on, etc) and to be there and coach the on ice warm up. My daughter and her coaches have a good relationship and her coaches are very encouraging always so I expect they will continue that when they put her on the ice for an event. I hope for feedback about the skate. That's basically it. When we decided to go after a high level coach, we knew we were likely giving up the warm fuzzies.

The coach that puts my daughter on for the smaller events is more of a cuddly, feel good kind of lady. She will likely do an off ice warm up and encouragement talk, on ice warm up and gentle but honest critique after the event. My daughter will likely receive several encouraging hugs. I have hired her because she is an excellent coach and because she is sooo warm and makes my child feel like a million bucks. I don't have the same expectations for all the coaches. They are all fabulous, in their own ways.

My daughter's former coach was a woman who was a total !@#$%^ in lessons but turned into this gooey, cooing, sweet thing once they were at the event. Although this was better than continuing to shriek it always seemed to me that she was putting on a face for the other coaches, not for my daughter's good. It was kind of annoying and I was glad when we moved on to greener pastures...

[Ice T]

Babyskates,

Thanks! Your high-level pro is exactly my scenario. I think I'm expecting too much. Somehow, I guess I just want something more than I'm getting. I got a lot more coddling from my ISI coaches in the early years, but now that I'm very experienced in USFSA, I don't really need that anymore. But sometimes a little bit is nice to have.

He said he would be there to coach me on the on-ice warm up, handle emergencies, and put back into my lesson from what he saw at competition, but that's it. And over the 3 years I've been with him, I guess that's all he has ever done, but it's really been bothering me now. Maybe I perceive that he is doing less and less? And maybe that's because I have more experience now. But there have been some emergencies that he didn't handle that have destroyed competitions for me. But things happen, and we all make mistakes.

Getting him to give verbal feedback afterwards has been like pulling teeth. Also, he will not help me warm up off the ice, which is fine because he's told me what to do. But he also never stays for results, since the adult events are usually the last one on his schedule for that day.

And believe me, there are definitely NO warm fuzzies coming from him. A "good job" is the best you will get, and if you get a handshake, that's worth far more than the gold medal.

[Terri C]

My coach, as well as the coach that team teaches with her, meet me at the competition approximately 45 minutes before my event. They will do a 15- 20 minute off ice warm- up, with jumping rope, stretching and walking through your program and off ice jumps.
They check me in with the ice monitor and hold water and warm up sweater, but no guards!
They get me through the on ice warmup and will stay with me before my skate, as well as give me feedback afterwards, which is also applied during future lessons.

Thus, I continue to work on the salchow, loop, to toe loop- toe loop jump pattern in my program until the next competition!

[lizzz]

My coach is not a touchy feely type of guy but he is there. I am expected to do my own off ice warm up, as are all his kids unless you are competitive. He's really good at practice ice and the warm up,it's like a lesson. He makes sure you get on the ice at the proper time etc. Afterwards he rarely says anything but good job etc. This last competition I did get him to sit down like he does with the competitive kids, and actually critique what I did. We'll see if I can get that to continue at the next competition! he never stays for results so that's not a problem. This works for me pretty well. I'd rather have him really helpful at the practice ice and the warm up than anything else!

[Sk8Bunny]

My coach is a tuff/strict lady, not all warm and stuff like that, but i think its kool cause at competitions, she will charge us a lesson fee for each event, no matter how long it takes. She is the top coach at our rink so i think its a good deal. She will meet me usually an hour or 45 mins before my event, and help me warm up and stretch. she always has a complement to give about costumes or hair or something so i always think that is nice of her to do. it makes me feel important. the koolest thing about her is she is really calm during competitions and will just make small chit chat with me when she can she im nervous. then about 5 minutes before my group warm-up she will do fun excerises like balance and wiggling toes and rolling shoulders, just small stuff to make me forget about the other skaters nearby. then she takes my stuff, and always always has a package of kleenex with her for me,(one of my pet peeves is not having kleenex on hand when skating). the time after group warm-up and before i go on is the time that she fills me with positive words and encouragement, and gives last minute reminders. sometimes we do breathing exercises too. And afterwards she will give construction critizicm. What i like about her is she is strict, but she knows when you tried your best, and even if you fell but tried your best she wont yell or make a scene. it is only when a skater gives up and doesnt give it their best that she gets angry. but yeah, i think my coach is really good at competitions, definetly worth the money we pay.

[Mrs Redboots]

I don't think we adults really need our coaches with us, not like the kids do. Adults can be, and usually are, there for one another even if they're competing against each other - we chat in the changing-rooms, help each other control our breathing if we're nervous, remind each other to take our guards and jackets off, wish each other luck, and so on. We may or may not have a Significant Other with us to do all that, if we do, so much the better.

For kids, though, often their parents are even more nervous than they are (watching someone you love compete is infinitely worse than doing it yourself - I get so stressed when Robert is soloing!), and sometimes a kid can pick up on that and make a Big Deal out of it, and perhaps skate badly because of it. Especially if said kid is inclined to be prima-donna-ish anyway. A coach can separate Kid from Mamma when it's necessary!

[Ice T]

Well I just have to give a very happy report today. After expressing my frustations to my coach earlier this week, he REALLY tried much harder today at my competition to do more for me and be a better coach. And he really succeeded and made me pleased with his services.

When I checked in with him upon arriving at the rink, he already knew my skate order, the time I was to skate, and the warm up groups. He told me everything I needed to know. He gave me good words of advice and encouragement before I took the ice, actively coached me on the warm up, and then gave me positive words when I came off the ice. And then to top it all off, he absolutely shocked me by telling me that he would stay around for my results.

WOW WOW WOW!!!

I was going to try and get my "post competition" feedback, but we got swarmed by several of the little girls that I skate with that were there cheering for me, along with lots of other friends who all came up to hug me and tell me what a good skate I had. It made me feel so unbelievably good today!!

This is probably the most satisfied I have been with my coach at competition in quite a while, and it made me so happy that he put forth the effort to make things better for me. :D :D :D

And to top things off, I won the silver medal today in the Adult Silver Ladies Freeskate at the Florida Open. :D :D :D

Thank you to all of you who contributed to this thread. It really helped me sort things out before the competition today. I appreciate it!

[jazzpants]

Hmmmm? Wonder if he's been reading this thread??? :roll: :twisted:

Congratulations on the Silver at Adult Silver!!! :D :D :D

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by jazzpants
Congratulations on the Silver at Adult Silver!!! :D :D :D Seconded!

[sonora]

Pardon me if this was already mentioned, but the coach should also be rinkside with a back up of the skater's music during warm up and competition.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by sonora
Pardon me if this was already mentioned, but the coach should also be rinkside with a back up of the skater's music during warm up and competition. Someone should have a backup, but it doesn't have to be the coach - it is not his/her responsibility to provide one, either, but the skater's. Even if my coach is there, I always give my backup music to my husband, just in case.

Actually, I always have my back-up music on cassette, which means I can then listen to it before my warm-up starts, and remind myself of the choreography - I keep a small Walkman in my skate bag, and try to remember to take batteries for it.

[sonora]

I believe the coach should have it, rinkside, to avoid unnecssary delays in the event the original music is unplayable.

Skating over to the coach is far preferable than trying to get to Mom up in the stands. Referees everywhere will thank you!

[roogu]

Originally posted by sonora
Pardon me if this was already mentioned, but the coach should also be rinkside with a back up of the skater's music during warm up and competition.

Most competitions normally require you to sign in a back up copy along with the original copy so that really shouldn't be a problem

[sonora]

Maybe in Canada. Around here, waiting while coach & mom run down a back up happens all too frequently.

I don't think this does the skater any good either.

[dooobedooo]

How much do people usually pay their coach to come to competitions? And how do they settle expenses?
Thanks.

[~*SkYlA*~]

I dont know how much my coach charges....but when he took me to my first compation with him during my worm up he went and sat up in the stans talking to some women! i couldn't belive it! and he didn't even come down when i was wating to skate to talk to me just sat up there and WAVED at me! i thought i was going to kill him! but he olny took me to one compation cause we got rid of him pretty fast! my new coach worms me up and talkes to me before i skate and get's my mind of everything! SHE'S GREAT!:D :D

[land64shark]

Ice T,

As my daughter is a former student of your coach, I know your frustrations firsthand. Quite frankly, I was always happier when he couldn't/didn't come to the various competitions because I never felt he was doing anything that warrented being paid for. He did exactly for her what he did for you (not much). My daughter also PREFERRED it when I put her on the ice instead of him. She has her own ideas of how she wants to warm up and she wasn't comfortable at all with how he did it and I could calm her nerves where he couldn't. She always skated better when I put her on.

He never hung around for her results either so it's not an "adult" thing. He would always say the same "good job" no matter how well or badly she skated. He's a sweetheart of a guy, but she found that annoying because it told her nothing about what he really thought.

My daughter just competed with her new coach for the first time. What a difference! This coach has quite a different philosophy about what coaches are supposed to do than most. For a flat rate (that was less than her old coach's fee for one event) he will coach her on all practice ice sessions, (my daughter has NEVER had anyone coach her during practice ice before and she liked it ALOT) he'll coach ALL events warm-ups and give a full assessment of the performance to the skater and parent. He goes over the results posted and discusses the ordinals, placements and where do we go from here. Then he'll do something her shy mild mannered former coach would NEVER do...talk to the judges! He also doesn't charge for meals or gas mileage. His expenses will only be hotel and airfare (if applicable) divided amongst his students. He doesn't charge for "missed lessons" back home either.

I'm really comfortable with him at competition. I can now send my child with friends to away competitions (if I can't get the time off from work) and feel secure that he'll handle her just fine.

The pizza party he hosted for the kids and parents one evening was a nice touch too. Apparently it's a tradition at competition.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by sonora
I believe the coach should have it, rinkside, to avoid unnecssary delays in the event the original music is unplayable.But few adults - and not all children, these days - have their coaches with them.

Skating over to the coach is far preferable than trying to get to Mom up in the stands. Referees everywhere will thank you! What makes you think Mom is up in the stands? In my experience, she's usually hovering pretty near..... unless the coach is there, in which case she is hovering if she is a Helpful Mother, and making herself useful tying bows, finishing make-up, etc. If she is an Unhelpful Mother, coach will have banished her, or got Helpful Mother to take her for a coffee.....

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by dooobedooo
How much do people usually pay their coach to come to competitions? And how do they settle expenses?
Thanks. The thing to do is ask your coach what his/her policy is. Mine, for instance, doesn't charge for competitions held at our home rink, but asks for petrol money for elsewhere. On the other hand, he doesn't usually go if it means missing a great many lessons. For instance, although I don't suppose he'd at all mind coming to Dunkerque (he likes France as much as I do, and French red wine even more than I do, and that's saying something!), he couldn't possibly miss one teatime and two full morning patches, and I certainly couldn't afford to pay him enough to make up for it!

So I don't ask him to go, now. He did come to Bracknell once or twice, but all but the first time he had another pupil as well as me, and we shared his costs. We arranged with him in advance how much would be fair, and split it between us.

As for how they settle, cash or cheque in advance is the best way - perhaps in an envelope when you settle up your lesson/patch fees. "That's this, and that, and this is for next Saturday"

[sonora]

Mrs Redboots;

In my opinion, humble or no, Mom should be in the stands. Only coaches and competitors should be by the ice.

And re talking with the judges afterwards, it never ceases to amaza me how many coaches & skaters fail to show up after events when critiques by the judges are offered.

[arena_gal]

Coach charges:

We're usually at the rink first, register, check in music, find dressing room. Get costume on. Coach shows up about that point and takes over (I find a seat in the stands), does off ice warm up, talks through the tensions and puts the skater on the ice. Hangs around until results are called, about a half an hour. Leaves if this is the only skater. If there are multiple skaters, will juggle with another certified coach (we know about this in advance) if there are two skaters on at the same time on different rinks.

For this we pay the base coach one hour of time at the regular rate whether it is an hour or not. If another coach was involved, the base coach settles this, we don't ever pay the other coach.

Then we pay:

Coach mileage to and from the event
Coach per diem (food)
Coach accommodations
Payment for lessons lost at home club while coach is at the competition (yup, this is the killer one)

All this pro-rated by the number of skaters the coach has at an event on that day.

The competition costs show up on the regular bill from the coach.

[sk8er1964]

Having my coach with me at Adult Nationals last weekend was invaluable. I was jittery when I started my warm up, and he noticed it, called me over and said just the right things to get me in focus. He repeated them before I competed, and the skate went very well - no real jitters, no real problems. Anyone can hold my water and skate guards, but having somebody there who knows me and my skating was quite important. I'm really glad he was there!

My coach charges a standard fee for competitions plus mileage. He just adds it onto his monthly bill. If I were to want him to accompany me out of area, then I would pay for his airfare and room.

BTW, my mother, who is an ex-coach herself, would not have been anywhere near the competitors area unless I had asked her to be. I am an adult, not a kid, but she's sat in the stands at all 3 of my competitions. I don't remember her being anywhere nearby when I competed as a kid, either. That was my coach's job.

Congrats on the Silver medal :D !!!

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by sonora
Mrs Redboots;

In my opinion, humble or no, Mom should be in the stands. Only coaches and competitors should be by the ice.Quite probably. Only, they don't have stands at our rink, nor at some of the others. And the coaches aren't always there, anyway.

And re talking with the judges afterwards, it never ceases to amaza me how many coaches & skaters fail to show up after events when critiques by the judges are offered. I wish more judges would offer critiques; here, it doesn't seem to happen unless you can grab hold of one of the judges on his or her way between the judges seats and the FOOD! And, although I've never found them to be less than helpful if asked, most people don't ask.

[batikat]

As an adult skater I generally prefer it if my coach is not there when I compete. I think I feel more nervous about letting him down than anything else.
I do think it is different for kids and having the coach there can be invaluable for the parent as well as the skaters. My kids competed twice in the last two weeks - the first time the coach was not there (though he did offer but as it was at our home rink and he lives a long way away it would have cost me a lot as they were his only skaters that day). They have competed without him before but it is very stressful for me if he is not there as I get nervous and then can't think how to help the kids. I find myself saying - 'well what would your coach expect you to do now' in the warm ups both off and on-ice.
The next time was at the novice championships and I really would have been lost without him. He took the kids around to see the Arena where the competition was held and the practice rink. He did an off -ice warm up and coached them during practice ice time. I was then able to go up to the stands and watch the competition while they did their pre-competition warm up and I knew they were in good hands before, during and after the competition. He did charge a small but very reasonable fee and I paid his petrol money. He was happy to come to the competition venue just for the day (a 3.5 -4 hour drive each way) so that I would not have to pay for a hotel for him and luckily it was a non-teaching day for him so there were no missed lessons - but he did give up his day off!
It's a very individual thing though and you have to work it out between skater and coach just what you want/need from them at competitions and what costs you are willing to pay to have them there.

[Lindsay]

well i'm not a skater but i synchro swim which has a lot of similarities to skating so just thought i'd give my 2 cents worth.

First of all, I find it really nerve wracking when my coach isn't around at a competition i need a familiar face around all the time (lol). A good coach should carry a tape with your music on it, make sure that the people have your tape as well as hold your jacket (tracksuit etc), water bottle, etc. They should be there to help you through warmup and make sure that your ok and run through a few things so that you get the feel of the ice (in my case water,---there is nothing worse then not warming up and getting in a cold pool.) when your ready to compete they should be there to cheer you on and clap really loud (lol sounds funny but its amazing how much it helps) Afterwards no matter how you skated you should always talk to your coach about your performance they might be able to give you some advice or tips for next time.

Hope that helped..if not thats ok lol it gave me something to do for a little while;)

[climbsk8]

We just took our coach to Adult Nationals. He definitely earned his living that week! I respect the adult skater who doesn't need a coach rinkside, but I've learned that I really do!

It's good to hear that everybody has pretty much the same formula for paying coaches at competitions.

Here are some of the things that I think coaches SHOULDN'T do regarding competitions:

1. Turn on the pressure the week before. If you don't have that jump combo by Wednesday, chances are screaming about it won't make it happen at the comp on Saturday.
2. Ultimatums: "If you can't get it together soon, I'm going to ____" (fill in your own blank here.) It's just another form of pressure that doesn't work.
3. Talk about/compare other skaters to you before the event.
4. Talk about/compare/gossip about other skaters after the event.
5. Disappear at your competition, or want to leave early, or otherwise make you believe that they would rather be somewhere else.
6. Yell at you for ANYTHING in the couple of hours before you skate. For instance, if you're late because you're stuck in traffic, you're already freaked out. Walking in the door to a screaming coach only makes things worse.
7. Talk/gossip about the judges. The walls have ears!!
8. Tell you that your schedule and skate times are YOUR responsibility. I don't know any skaters who wear a wristwatch while they're competing, do you? But most coaches have them.
9. Ignore you when you tell them something. "No, really, I think I'm going to throw up...."

Each of these comes from my own observation at competitions in the last 5 years. I don't care how successful, well-known or accomplished a coach may be; if they don't treat you well, you aren't getting the full benefit of this sport.

I've only had two skating coaches, and I dearly love both of them. It's more than a work relationship. They have become good friends who I really look up to, and they both produce results. If you're not finding that in a coach, LOOK FOR ANOTHER ONE.

[flo]

I have had coaches with me, and without for Nationals. If I'm there for the week, I like to have someone there. Last year my coach couldn't make it, so I asked a local friend's coach - and she was great. This year I was put on by a fellow skater, and I the same for her. It worked out really well. We have both been competing for a while, so knew what to expect, and also what has helped us right before events!

[arena_gal]

One of the coach's duties at a competition is to simply be who they are.

It is strongly felt in and around my club, that having a well known prestigous coach standing at the boards will get the skater a better placement. Coaching changes have been made simply on that reason.

[climbsk8]

OK, I know the world isn't perfect, but I would at least like to believe, in my naivete, that skaters are placed based on their TALENT and not their coach's resume.

We have quite a few "prestigious" coaches in my area. Most of them are great, but some of them are JERKS. I hear parents talking about how they're just resigned to dealing with the bad attitudes, pushy bullying and crying kids in order to get their child ahead by hiring a prestigious coach.

No thank you -- this is not what skating is all about.

I'm interested to find out whether there are any judges out there who've read these posts....what do they think? Does having a well-known coach automatically help with placement?

[roogu]

I've judged in the past but have given that up recently due to other priorities. I personally didn't care and actually didn't even notice really who's coaching who ...... when the skaters got on the ice for warm ups, you just watch them adn see what they're doing. There's no way a judge will put a skater who's got poor basics and weak presentation but with a 'prestigious' coach over a skater with great basics and strong skills but with just a 'local' coach. At the end of the day, it really is what's completed on the ice.

At StarSkate Nationals, one of the girls had 3 coaches (it was Paul Wirtz and the usual 2 other coaches that you see him with, even on TV in the kiss n' cry) with her from the Cricket Club in Toronto ..... at the end, she still finished out of the top 3 in the skills portion with skaters/coaches from new brunswick, bc, and western ontario placing ahead of her. The same was true with the interpretive event. She did win the freeskate portion, but that's because she completed the best freeskate program.

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by roogu
I've judged in the past but have given that up recently due to other priorities.

Roogu - I'm really curious. I just competed at my first Adult Nationals in the States. I skated a personal adult best, and my placement really didn't matter to me. But, as far as the judges went, I was all over the board. I had a 4th place, 2 8ths, 2 9ths, a 12th and a 13th. That's quite a wide range. I am a strong skater (and I skated clean, with an axel and a flying camel as my hardest elements), but this year I had no double in a event where others did. Also, in my opinion, I need work on my presentation skills.

So, what does a judge focus on? It seems to me that the 12th & 13th placements put attempted but failed doubles ahead of a clean no-double prgram, while the 8th & 9th placements gave weight to a clean program vs incomplete doubles. The 4th placement judge, of course, was the smartest one of the bunch :D . Seriously, there must have been something he saw in my skating and I'm tempted to write him and ask what it was so I can bottle it for next time or something.

So, what do judges look for?

[BABYSKATES]

Originally posted by climbsk8
OK, I know the world isn't perfect, but I would at least like to believe, in my naivete, that skaters are placed based on their TALENT and not their coach's resume.

Does having a well-known coach automatically help with placement?

I don't think that just having a well known coach automatically helps with placement. If a kid bombs, most likely, they won't be on the podium, no matter who is coaching them. Frank Carroll coached Angela Nikodinov at Nationals this year but since she bombed, she was low in the standings. I think the coach's reputation is most likely due to their ability to bring out the best in their kids. People may think the coach putting the skater on the ice is why the skater does better than they did with a lesser known coach but I think the top coaches are experts who know what the judges want and can help the skater deliver the goods.

[Elsy2]

You can disagree with Arena_gal all you like, but she is just stating what is a common belief. I doubt you would get any judge or coach to admit to this except in private.

I've seen coaches who do not have a prestigious reputation ask the more prestigious coaches to come and be present and visible during a certain skater's event. I've also seen the less prestigious coaches ask to be present during a certain skater's event to be visible and gain some sort of recognition......

Whether the advantage is actual or just perceived is up for debate. Certainly the skater's actual performance is of primary importance, you can't argue with that. But beyond that, what Arena_gal is describing does happen.

[arena_gal]

In a flippant way, the "prestigous coach" issue was explained to me by a former national competitor and I'll paraphrase :

In a competition the judges have so many things to look at and so many competitors (novice sub sectionals for example) that sometimes they're busy writing something down or a skater gets bounced around because they weren't that memorable. Having a big name coach means that they'll pay attention to the performance more and be remembered by the judges.

Of course! it's up the the skater to put it on the ice.

[yuffie]

It's not so much that a skater gets an automatic advantage from a prestigious coach, but that as an observer you come to expect better skating from certain coaches. They are prestigious for a reason, a history of producing winning programs and teaching good technique. And so when a skater of well-known coach comes up to skate, I may pay a little more attention and my expectations are high. If the skater doesn'[t live up to expectations,they will get dinged (marked down for their errors...) So the advantage of a prestigious coach is countered if skater doesn't skate well.

This is another reason why a skater needs to be "seen"...that is compete often enough and at the right events where they become familiar. Since regionals are in Nashville for EGL, the club will most certainly go to the May competition there.

In many cases I can tell at our rink who coaches which skater. They have a certain look about their elements and programs that clue you in.

Posted actually by Elsy2 on Yuffie's computer........

[BABYSKATES]

Originally posted by Elsy2
I've seen coaches who do not have a prestigious reputation ask the more prestigious coaches to come and be present and visible during a certain skater's event. I've also seen the less prestigious coaches ask to be present during a certain skater's event to be visible and gain some sort of recognition......

Whether the advantage is actual or just perceived is up for debate. Certainly the skater's actual performance is of primary importance, you can't argue with that. But beyond that, what Arena_gal is describing does happen.

Elsy2, what you are saying is soooo not PC! :D It may be true but it isn't PC...

I, too, know that this does happen but as we all have subsequently stated, the skater has to be able deliver or the effect of having THE coach is negated.

I know parents who believe that the ONLY reason little Suzy isn't the top skater in the region is because their coach isn't well known and the judges don't give her the breaks. Forget about the fact that Suzy's jumps are so small you couldn't slip a piece of paper between her blade and the ice and they "land" in a whoosh of ice. Forget the fact that her stroking is poor. A truly good coach might be able to correct some of a skater's glaring problems but they can't teach talent.

When we announced that we were moving away and would be leaving our well known coach, I was actually told by another parent that my child's favorable placements (being placed ahead of her little girl) were because our coach had the bigger reputation and that they were going to drive an extra hour each direction to take the spot we were leaving. I laughed and wished them luck because that coach we left was mostly hype from having a handful of good little skaters but in actuality, very little substance. Often her assistant put my child on the ice anyway. We would have left this coach whether or not we moved. You can imagine how much I love the assumption that the coach was the only reason for my child's success.

Johnny Bevan is Ye Bin Mok's head coach and although she works with Frank Carroll, she is not Frank's primary student so, why was Frank Carroll standing by Johnny Bevan's side at Nationals when Johnny put Ye Bin Mok on the ice? Yeah, we know. But first and foremost, Ye Bin is talented and ready to rise to the occasion so it worked for her.

The big name is there to keep the talented skater from getting lost in the standings and to lend credibility to the up and coming coach. If the skater skates to their potential, they are less likely to be forgotten with Frank putting them on the ice. Of course the judges see him there.

[96.23??]

this is what my coach will do for me:

b4 im on she will come into the dressing room to make sure im dressed, warmed up and if im not warmed up she will make sure i do. then i go out a little early to stretch some more with her. she will take all my stuff jacket mitts warm up pants while i warm up on ice. she will stand near the door so after my elements she can give me feed back and what i should do next! so thats hwat my coach does! :)

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by climbsk8
Here are some of the things that I think coaches SHOULDN'T do regarding competitions:

[snip]

6. Yell at you for ANYTHING in the couple of hours before you skate. For instance, if you're late because you're stuck in traffic, you're already freaked out. Walking in the door to a screaming coach only makes things worse. I do so agree. There is one coach who sometimes comes to adult events with his skater, and the way he was treating her before her event - well, my husband said that he wouldn't employ that man for one single minute, and for him to have such strong views about something like that, it must have been bad! The skater in question didn't seem to mind, though, and skated very well (as she nearly always does), despite being yelled at.

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by BABYSKATES
Johnny Bevan is Ye Bin Mok's head coach and although she works with Frank Carroll, she is not Frank's primary student so, why was Frank Carroll standing by Johnny Bevan's side at Nationals when Johnny put Ye Bin Mok on the ice? Yeah, we know. But first and foremost, Ye Bin is talented and ready to rise to the occasion so it worked for her.

My guess is that Carroll was Bevan's coach when he was an eligible skater, and perhaps Bevan felt more comfortable at his first Nationals as a coach putting a skater out if Carroll stood with him. Carroll was convenient anyways since Goebel was competing. I wonder if he was there at Coasts?

I know if I were a young coach, I would be nervous putting my skater out at a big event. It might reassure me a bit if my coach, who also works with said skater, was there as well, to help me learn how to effectively put a skater out at a big competition. I've helped coaches put skaters out at "small" competitions and been nervous (but in a really good way)!

Jocelyn

[roogu]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
Roogu - I'm really curious. So, what do judges look for?

That's quite a wide range or ordinals, but not at all uncommon when it comes to events like Adult Nationals, or StarSkate Nationals or even provincial/state finals ... especially when it's a 5 judge or more panel. It's usually a bit more concise in freeskate because you've got elements to compare, but still not uncommon to see wide ranges. Just to give you an example, at the recent National STARSkate Championships in Canada, during the Creative Skill Portion in the Silver Ladies event, one skater placed 6th in that portion received ordinals of 1, 3, 4, 12, 13. Another skater who placed 9th in that portion received 2, 7, 7, 10, 12 ... it keeps going, the girl in 10th had 5, 7, 8, 14, 14. The girl who had, in my opinion, the best skill in the entire event, had ordinals of 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 ..... as you can see, her ordinals were more in check ..... but she ended up in 7th place in that portion. I've been skating for 14 years, and I thought she should have won .... obviously, there must have been qualities baout her skating that I thought was better than the other skaters. Which brings me to this point .....

The reason for such a huge range is because different judges value different things. Some may give more credit for more difficulty over flow/poise/speed ...... some may give more credit for strong basics over planned difficulty. Some judges prefer soft lyrical programs while others prefer strong dynamic programs. It's really up to each judge. But there are some commonalities in what most judges look for.


Generally speaking, judges will usually group the skaters they see in an A, B, or C group which makes it easier to assign marks.

The things that differentiate skaters between these groups would be things like speed, flow, carriage ..... the very basics of skating. The stronger your basics, the better your skating. And even if you have a bad day in terms of the jumps, the judges will generally still reward your basics because they can see the quality in those basics ... even something as simple as crosscuts setting up a jump. Like Michelle Kwan for example, when she sets up a jump by doing crosscuts at the ends ... you can see that her upper body hardly, if at all, moves. Her legs are doing all the work, and her back is perfectly straight and her carriage is up facing the arena and not down towards the ice. Now compare that to someone like Sokolova, when she sets up a jump, her upper body moves a lot. Her arms tend to move about as well.

I myself like to see skaters with strong edges as well ... which would also be included in the basics. Strong edges doesn't always mean deep carving edges .... on top of depth/curve, it also includes control and the ability to master forward AND backward edges. This also includes the execution of basic skating turns like 3 turns or brackets or even counters and rockers.

Of course, as important as basics would be presentation. Again, diff. judges prefer diff. things, but I like to think there is one true constant when presentation is judged. That is, be real and honest. What does that mean? It means, whatever style or music you skate to ... whether it's somethign simple and straight forward like a classical theme, or if you're portraying a chracter like a Dracula program .... open up yourself and let it come from within. How do you do this? The answer has 3 words - "Be The Program". An angst ridden expression doesn't always interpret dramatic music ... you see it in dance all the time .. yeah they skate to dramatic programs and you see them scrunch up their faces .... but you can see the difference between those who do it because it's part of the choreography and those who do it because they ARE the program.

As for evaluating jumps .... I would always reward jumps completed correctly with quality and technically sound take offs over a more difficult jump, but done less than mediocre. For example, take two top skaters skating in an event. One does a program with a double flip as the hardest jump, but it was done with nice height, a perfect take off and a strong outside edge landing. The other skater does a double lutz .. but it was a flutz take off and the landing was jerky and had to fight for it .... I'll give the win to the skater with the flip. Depending on how strong her skating is, I might even give it to someone who has only up to a loop. It's nice to have difficult elements in a program, but it's more difficult to have nice elements. :) Or if a skater has an axel as her highest jump, but she as a great take off (no skid) with an awesome kick through that gives her a nice climb ... I'd give it to her over a skater who does a small double salchow with a small and tight landing. A good way to measure a jump is the landing edge tracing ... the landing tracing should be as big as the take off. That's the sign of a mastered jump.

In terms of the elements you completed and the ordinals ... and what you told me the others did, it's obvious that the judge who placed you 4th thought you had strong basics ... after all, you said many of the other ladies had doubles while you only had an axel, and that judge still had you in 4th. The judges who put you in 8/9th .. probably weighed out your basics with the difficulty of the event as a whole ... strong basics but a lower difficulty generally cross each other out, which would explain the middle of the pack placing. The final judge who placed you 12th, would appear to me value difficulty in jumps over basics. Ideally, it should be a nice balance of both. See what i mean when different judges see different things? heheh

Unless a skater has a jump that nobody else in the event has .... jumps really don't matter all that much. I know that sounds stupid, but it really is sort of true. Take the championship men event at Adult Natoinals for example ... Larry Holiday completed 2 triple salchows .... no one else had that jump. Now of course in this situation, jumps would matter as this would give an added advantage. But if all the skaters are completing/attempting elements that are roughly in the same difficulty range (say in an event where everybody has an axel and a double or two planned) ... you're all on an even scale and the best thing to make you stand out and get bonus points, would be STRONG BASICS :) It may not be your saving grace each and every time, but 9 times out of 10, the jduges will see it and it's gonna hold you up.

This has been a LONNNG Post! And I hope it's helped explained some things. If not, feel free to PVT me and I'll be more than happy to explain some more.

[roogu]

Just one more thing regarding speaking to judges:

Don't hesitate to ask judges for input ... but only do so AFTER your event has completed. Of course, I don't mean at the end of the day when all the events have been completed. I just mean after YOUR event has completed. Judges aren't allowed to discuss results or skaters during the event in question. Also make sure the judge has a good break in between their assignments when you speak to them. Most judges are assigned 4 or 5 events at a time before they get a break so obviously, they can't speak to you if your event is over, but they still have 2 or 3 more to do, hehe. 9 times out of 10, a judge wouldn't mind taking the 5 or 10 minutes to sit down and tell you what you can work on to be even better. And what's the worse that can happen if you ask, they say no? hehe, oh well, it's better than not asking and not getting any input anywya, right? :)

[sk8clean]

I've enjoyed reading the posts about this topic. I am competing in four days at my first competition, and curious to see how everything goes. It will be interesting b/c my coach has me and another skater skating compulsaries at the same time. From past competitions I have observed that my coach does have to spend more time with the kids since they need their hand held every step of the way, but she does not ignore the adults making sure they arrive at the rink and then shows up at the side of the boards before their warm up and event.

[Mrs Redboots]

Well, best of good luck, Sk8clean, and mind you let us know how you get on! Yes, your coach will be with you if she possibly can, but the children do have to take priority. I know once my coach disappeared because one of his pupils, competing in another class in the same competition, had been taken ill, and my poor coach spent most of his time holding the boy's head in the gents! His wife, a coach in her own right, was most apologetic, but I quite realised that C's need had been greater than mine.

My first competition of the 2003 season in less than a week - I do wish I could bring myself to care about it!