Blade Woes, or something...

[GoSveta]

I have MK Professional Blades, and it feels like I cannot get to my toe pick.

Waltz, Salchow is hard for me because of it. I go up nice and high, but I'm far backwards on the landing because I cannot hit my toe pick to take off 90% of the time.

The blade feels like a roller coaster.

What is the deal with that?

Are there other decent blades that won't break the pocket (maybe in a similar price range +maybe around $50 or so) that don't feel as... steep?

Also having trouble with them on spins. Keep rocking back and forth on them.

Maybe it's just me, but I think they're destroying my edges as well. But, like I said, that may be my fault :P

[Sessy]

Is it possible the sharpener messed up?

[Casey]

You might look for a lower-cost blade with a 8 foot rocker rather than 7' as you have now - that should feel more stable and I find it easier for spinning although others feel differently. The more expensive blades have bigger toepicks that are easier to trip yourself up on, but yeah, also harder for picked jumps.

You're not talking about picked jumps though - but of landings. I'm wondering if the real problem isn't that you're ending up at a funny angle in the air from the takeoff... Perhaps try reach your landing foot back a bit farther and make sure the toe is pointed. I'm not sure it's bad to be farther back on a landing as long as you're not falling backwards. You don't want to be too far forward and making a terrible noisy scratch with your toepick across the ice.

[SkatEn]

I have MK Professional Blades, and it feels like I cannot get to my toe pick.

Waltz, Salchow is hard for me because of it. I go up nice and high, but I'm far backwards on the landing because I cannot hit my toe pick to take off 90% of the time.

The blade feels like a roller coaster.

What is the deal with that?

Are there other decent blades that won't break the pocket (maybe in a similar price range +maybe around $50 or so) that don't feel as... steep?

Also having trouble with them on spins. Keep rocking back and forth on them.

Maybe it's just me, but I think they're destroying my edges as well. But, like I said, that may be my fault :P

I want to ask... Are your skates too big for you? That will explain the rocking and that the toepick is too far in front etc.

I love Ultima Blades. Legacy and Protege are comparable. Legacy has cross-cut picks but not Protege, that's the difference.

[katz in boots]

There could be a lot of factors at play in this.

How long have you had these blades?
What blades did you have before these?

New blades take getting used to, especially the different rocker profiles.

[GoSveta]

I want to ask... Are your skates too big for you? That will explain the rocking and that the toepick is too far in front etc.

I love Ultima Blades. Legacy and Protege are comparable. Legacy has cross-cut picks but not Protege, that's the difference.
Skates/Blades are the correct size.

The rocking is because the blade has quite a pronounced curve to it. It feels very far in front not because it's physically out there, but I almost have to fall forward to get to them, because they are like half an inch off the ice. (Excuse the runon). It's not really far out, it's just that the curve makes the distance feel like it is. Even moreso when you're doing a Walt-type takeoff coming all the way from the back of the blade, because of the blade's curvature. See below (my skate), this is how the rocker curves. That seems rather aggressive.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2662/photo0007xr.jpg

On a Waltz-type takeoff I can squat a little and somewhat get myself to it by sort of really throwing myself forward. That still feels a bit volatile and unsafe for me, though... Not to mention squatting it like that is bad technique and my coach would probably laugh and cry all at the same time if she seen me doing that :<

On a Salchow that's just not possible. Because of how far the toepick feels. I do my 3 or Mohawk and try to pivot onto the toe, and I just can't get there. I'm getting stuck like behind the toepick because it's so far to go (or rather, so high to climb?) to get up to it.

I tend to spin under hte MK Logo at the front. Perhaps if I spun like 0.5-1.0 inches further up that would help a little, I'll try that, and hopefully I don't topple over like a top.

Because I'm having trouble getting to the toe on takeoffs, I'm having trouble getting to the toe on the landings. Also, when I do hit the bottom toe pick, since the blade curves so much I tend to get stuck on the one inch of blade behind the toe pick, which leads to me almost done a Charlotte Spiral or Illusion going backwards on a curve. My coach did mention that I tend to land a bit stiff knee'd, so that may be a component of that issue. I'm still having trouble actually landing on that pick, though, which makes saving jumps which are slightly off-axis (especially to the inside of the circle) borderline impossible, since I can't really "place myself on the landing edge," if that makes any sense...

One of the hockey guys thought that was cool today (the almost illusion). It wasn't.

Maybe if I try to keep my leg lower on landings it would remedy that a bit. I tend to hold my leg up almost parallel to the ice in my landing position (cause it looks better, and I can, and it's easier for me to see how nice a nicely stretched/turned out leg/foot looks in my reflection in the glass at the rink, etc. etc.).

I've had them about 7 months. I can do most things in them no problem (well my spins suck but that's more a factor of not practicing them as much). It's the jump takeoffs and landings that are griefing me at the moment.

[Sessy]

Looking at the blades, looks identical to my old Mk21's except for the toepicks. This is what, a 7' rocker? Maybe you need something with an 8'? Comparing them to the site ( http://www.mkblades.com/mk-blades.html ), the blade doesn't seem to be missing any toepicks (actually saw someone take off toepicks once cuz they were in the way, and twice more through sharpening errors)... It's a mystery.

[GoSveta]

Did you get the blades new? I once saw someone take the bottom picks off blades cuz "they were getting in the way". :frus:
Yep. I even got to take them out of the box when my skates came in at the pro shop. They still had the greasy stuff on the bottom in the groove prior to sharpening.

EDIT: Yea, the curvature of the blade on the site is suspiciously docile.

Is there a way to tell when a blade was manufactured? Notice the MK logo on the website is a different color than the one on my blades. Mine is probably just worn out from being on the ice and being wiped off like 1000 times, though.

[icestalker]

There was that post a while ago.. woman had the same problem with her pros.. and it turned out she had like a 5 or 6 foot rocker, manufacturer defect. I mean, really. That does not look like a 7' rocker to me. I have CorAces which are supposed to be similar to Pros, and Aces have a 7' rocker, and my blades do not have that curvy heel rocker and aggressive 'climb' to the toepick. I've never seen any 7' blades look like that.
Take the blades to a pro or contact MK.

[Casey]

Right Brain: In the distant future, I will land all of the doubles.

Left Brain: HAHAHAHAHA

Left Brain: You can't even do a backspin.

Right Brain: ...

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I love your signature. That sounds like my own thought process. :P

[Bill_S]

I've got tracings of the rocker of two pairs of Aces on my web site. If you click the small thumbnail, you'll get a larger picture.

Download it and print it landscape. If the resolution tags remain intact (I expect they will), you'll get a life-size print out. Place it on the edge of a table, position your own skates on top, and compare.

The tracings are near the bottom of this page...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/skating/profiler.html

It is just a data point for your investigation, but it's a place to start.

[san]

There was that post a while ago.. woman had the same problem with her pros.. and it turned out she had like a 5 or 6 foot rocker, manufacturer defect. I mean, really. That does not look like a 7' rocker to me.

I was the one with the MK Pro problems who started the thread you're talking about.

GoSveta, the pic of your blades looks just like my new MK Pros did. Even when I got MK to send me a pair that did have a 7' rocker, the heel lift/rise to the toe was just impossible for me to deal with. And I'd been skating in MK Pros for decades.

The way it appears MK has resdesigned the blade made it pretty much impossible for me to jump or spin on it. I'd never skated on anything like it before in all my years of skating. Like I'd mentioned in the old thread, I'd compared my new MK Pros to the old, unused display model at the skate shop, and they looked nothing alike.

I'm in a Coronation Comet now (8 1/2' rocker) and that rocker profile is much more like what I was used to in the past.

[singerskates]

I have MK Professional Blades, and it feels like I cannot get to my toe pick.

Waltz, Salchow is hard for me because of it. I go up nice and high, but I'm far backwards on the landing because I cannot hit my toe pick to take off 90% of the time.

The blade feels like a roller coaster.

What is the deal with that?

Are there other decent blades that won't break the pocket (maybe in a similar price range +maybe around $50 or so) that don't feel as... steep?

Also having trouble with them on spins. Keep rocking back and forth on them.

Maybe it's just me, but I think they're destroying my edges as well. But, like I said, that may be my fault :P

Are you in knew boots too? How knew are your boots? Are you getting enough bend in your boots at the ankles? I have this problem with only my right skate but it's getting better. Talk to your coach for some ideas on how to get more bend in your boots.

[icestalker]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I love your signature. That sounds like my own thought process. :P

:lol: Thanks!


GoSveta, the pic of your blades looks just like my new MK Pros did. Even when I got MK to send me a pair that did have a 7' rocker, the heel lift/rise to the toe was just impossible for me to deal with. And I'd been skating in MK Pros for decades.

The way it appears MK has resdesigned the blade made it pretty much impossible for me to jump or spin on it. I'd never skated on anything like it before in all my years of skating. Like I'd mentioned in the old thread, I'd compared my new MK Pros to the old, unused display model at the skate shop, and they looked nothing alike.

So the blade's really supposed to be like that, after MK redesigned? Well- a lot of skaters are going to be let down- this blade doesn't seem to be working well for anybody.

[Sessy]

There was that post a while ago.. woman had the same problem with her pros.. and it turned out she had like a 5 or 6 foot rocker, manufacturer defect. I mean, really. That does not look like a 7' rocker to me. I have CorAces which are supposed to be similar to Pros, and Aces have a 7' rocker, and my blades do not have that curvy heel rocker and aggressive 'climb' to the toepick. I've never seen any 7' blades look like that.
Take the blades to a pro or contact MK.

If you look on the site, Sveta's blades look similarly curved to the Two Stars blades on the website, which supposedly have the same 7' rocker as the much less curved (on the photo, at least) professionals.

TBH, these blades do resemble my old MK21's a lot in terms of blade curvature even though though the toepicks and name are different, and I had soooo much problems with the mk21s. Eventually they just went and bent, they were mounted off-centre at the toes as later turned out (no wonder I couldn't spin in them!) so I guess I can't blame MK for that, but still.

Now the MK21 is *supposed* to have a 7' rocker and the Coronation Aces are supposed to have a 7' rocker as well but I swear, there was a giant difference in how easy it was to do 3-turns on MK21s (and not so on Coronation Aces!), but how much more stable I was on Coronation Aces on landings and edges. It's not all about the rocker and ROH it would seem.

[GoSveta]

Are you in knew boots too? How knew are your boots? Are you getting enough bend in your boots at the ankles? I have this problem with only my right skate but it's getting better. Talk to your coach for some ideas on how to get more bend in your boots.
I got the boots and the skates together. I don't think the boots have anything to do with it. Even though they don't seem to have creases in them, I can get down pretty low in them XD

The issue is getting up to the toe pick. The boot/blade is the right size, but since the rocker curves so much it almost feels like I have to fall forward to the tips of my toes to get on them securely, which actually doesn't feel secure or controlled at all.

My arms and leg and coming through, but I cannot get any type of decent timing on the jump because of this issue.

I'm probably going to run this question by my skate guy, and likely look into getting them replaced with something else. In the meantime, I've sent an email to MK. I can't believe these people don't have a 1-800 number to call... ...

The way I feel at the moment... These blades are good for doing turns on the ice, and not much else for me.

[fsk8r]

I got the boots and the skates together. I don't think the boots have anything to do with it. Even though they don't seem to have creases in them, I can get down pretty low in them XD

The issue is getting up to the toe pick. The boot/blade is the right size, but since the rocker curves so much it almost feels like I have to fall forward to the tips of my toes to get on them securely, which actually doesn't feel secure or controlled at all.

My arms and leg and coming through, but I cannot get any type of decent timing on the jump because of this issue.

I'm probably going to run this question by my skate guy, and likely look into getting them replaced with something else. In the meantime, I've sent an email to MK. I can't believe these people don't have a 1-800 number to call... ...

The way I feel at the moment... These blades are good for doing turns on the ice, and not much else for me.

Another thought on the new boots, is has the heel height changed? My new boots have a lower heel and it makes the blades (which is the same as before) feel very different and effects my balance on the blade rocker as my weight isn't quite in the right place.

[cesar.alford]

You could probably try Ultima blades. They’re very good.

[Query]

I jump so badly I can't knowledgeably comment on jumping with your blade.

But look at the pictures from

http://www.mkblades.com/mk-blades.html

Click on the picture of your blade.

I think (but may be wrong) that your blades look like the tails have been rounded off more at the back than the ones in MK's picture. Is it possible your sharpener re-profiled the blades, to be a bit more like hockey skates? If I had your blades, I would be more likely to fall backwards. I personally like blades with flatter tails. A good sharpener could modify the blade profile to be more flat in the back, though it would waste some metal and therefore blade lifetime, so don't ask for that unless it is what you defintely want.

In addition, I think your sharpener killed the "sweet spot" (a cusp or length of small rocker diameter, usually below the ball of the foot, where it is easier to spin stably, just as it is easier to spin on the bottom of a top). A sweet spot also gives you a place that you can feel where the blade changes, which you may have gotten used to. A good sharpener could re-establish the sweet spot. See my boot page for a discussion of how to emphasize a sweet spot where you want it. I may be wrong - sweet spots are quite subtle, and are hard to see in photographs.

On the other hand, if you have been using this sharpener for years, it isn't likely he/she suddenly changed the way he/she does things, unless he/she got a new helper to do the job.

MK sometimes gets blade shapes wrong, so it doesn't have to be your sharpener's fault.

I didn't realize you could contact MK if they get the shape wrong! May I suggest you send or FAX them a photocopy of the blade shape? It is easier to see the complete shape on a direct contact photocopy than on a photograph, though be sure not to scratch the photocopier glass.

If you are having trouble reaching your toe pick, removing the first toe pick would only make the problem worse, so don't.

BTW, if your old blades had worn down, it was probably easier to reach your toe pick both because you had less metal on the rest of the blade, so the picks stuck out more relative to the rest of the blade, and because sharpeners often extend the usable blade lifetime by flattening the rocker curve.

I like fsk8r's theory. If the heels are higher, or the new boots have more back to front slant in the footbed than your old boots, you need to point your toes more to reach the toepick.

You can compensate by applying athletic tape under the front part the insoles, to make them thicker in front. This will mean you have to point your toes less. Be sure that you keep a smooth surface, so there isn't a sudden point where your feet feel an edge that cuts into the bottom of your feet. Of course, the tape will also change the front/back balance of your blades, and it will make it easier to accidentally touch your toe picks, so you may or may not like the effect. It will also reduce the amount of space available for your toes - if that is a problem, you would be better off creating a really thin insole out of something cheap like felt, and starting from there to create a boot bottom shape that meets all your needs.

If you haven't grown happy with your new skates after a few days of skating in them, I would strongly suggest you talk to your sharpener and boot fitter, rather than making changes on your own. Since these are new, they are probably willing to do corrections for free. A good proud professional would welcome the opportunity to make you happier. Though if the sharpener did indeed severely re-profile the blade without being asked, you might find someone better to work on the blade. And if the pros can't figure it out, you have to do things yourself. And do wait those several days - many people find that's all it takes to be happy with new boots and blades.

Isn't it amazing that differences of a few hundredths of an inch in blade and boot shape can perceptibly affect the way we skate?

Good luck!

[fsk8r]

Isn't it amazing that differences of a few hundredths of an inch in blade and boot shape can perceptibly affect the way we skate?



I've been most surprised about how heel height affects things. Now I'm getting used to a lower heel height I'm liking it. Makes it a lot easier to roll up onto the toe-pick when jumping but really messed with my spins.

But I'm really amazed how moving the blade a millimeter means that you can go from having no outside edge to having a beautiful one. I've had blades crooked before and not noticed but this time I could barely hold an outside edge.

It's a fickle business this skating.

[Query]

Another thing that would make it hard to reach your toe pick was if the front of the front mounting plate was closer to the front of your skate than the back of the back mounting plate was to the back of the skate. In principle, moving the mount back or forward has much the same effect as placing padding under the toe or heel, though I haven't heard of any people changing the mount position that way, and I've never tried it. You would need to reshape the outsole shape, or use shims to experiment, because the outsole shape is non-coplaner.

As far as I can tell from your picture, that mount position isn't your problem, but one could only tell from a picture of the bottom of your skates.

But looking at the picture again - your rocker is almost flat in the middle, and curves a lot at the ends. The high curvature at the back is particularly puzzling, as it is not reflected in the picture from MK's site. No really definite sweet spot, but still, rocker changes. The big curvature up front is near the center of the hole in the mounting plate. So that is where the current blade shape is best designed to spin.

I don't know if you trust your sharpener enough to move the effective sweet spot back to where you prefer to spin, or what your coach would say to where you like to spin, but it is possible. In fact, it is possible to change the rocker profile entirely, at which point you've got completely different blades.

[GoSveta]

Guy from MK responded to my Email (kinda quick, it was stuck in my Outbox until last night O.o) and said he'll call me to discuss the issue today.

[Isk8NYC]

Talking to the rep is a good start. See if they can recommend a good blade technician as well.

I don't think it's the mounting - if the blade were too far forward, you'd be spinning on your toe, not the instep area. However, you should check to see if the blade's mounted straight down the middle with a straightedge. If there's a bend, you'll have a different edge in the front than the back and I always found that spins were very scraped.

From what you're describing, you need a fully qualified skate technician to measure the rocker radius and check for level/balance. There's a few tools they can use to see if the blade has high spots and dips along its length.


You should make a tracing of the blade's profile on paper before you let any sharpening take place, just so that you have a record of what you were skating on.

Good luck!

[GoSveta]

I've been most surprised about how heel height affects things. Now I'm getting used to a lower heel height I'm liking it. Makes it a lot easier to roll up onto the toe-pick when jumping but really messed with my spins.

But I'm really amazed how moving the blade a millimeter means that you can go from having no outside edge to having a beautiful one. I've had blades crooked before and not noticed but this time I could barely hold an outside edge.

It's a fickle business this skating.
I just looked, and the heel height on these skaters seem to be almost half an inch higher than the Riedells I was wearing before.

It it possible that the problem may be because of exacerbated by me holding back a little going into the jumps? Should I be a bit (or a lot) more aggressive going into them? Only Issue I have with that is overrotating and falling, since it will make me jump way higher than I need to to rotate singles. I'm a bit fallphobic.

I put one layer of moleskin on top of the front of my superfeet insoles and will try that next time I go to the rink and see if that helps. Don't wanna pile too much on right now.

Thanks for all the replies. Don't think any post in the thread was devoid of helpful information :)

EDIT: Here's a pen tracing of the right blade. The left one is virtually identical. It doesn't look as pronounced on the tracing. Hrm...

http://a.imageshack.us/img412/6466/rightbladetracing.png

I hope these images aren't destroying someone's internet bandwidth, or something. If so lemme know and I'll change them to links.

[fsk8r]

I just looked, and the heel height on these skaters seem to be almost half an inch higher than the Riedells I was wearing before.

It it possible that the problem may be because of exacerbated by me holding back a little going into the jumps? Should I be a bit (or a lot) more aggressive going into them? Only Issue I have with that is overrotating and falling, since it will make me jump way higher than I need to to rotate singles. I'm a bit fallphobic.

I put one layer of moleskin on top of the front of my superfeet insoles and will try that next time I go to the rink and see if that helps. Don't wanna pile too much on right now.

Thanks for all the replies. Don't think any post in the thread was devoid of helpful information :)

As I'm going the other way, from a high heel to a low heel, you'll have to translate my experience into what you might need to try. For my waltz jump I find I've got a lot more space to rock up onto the toe pick than I'm used to having. This actually means that I'm holding back (I'm a fallphobic as well) as I'm expecting a pick and then not finding it (I had initial problems with 3turns and mohawks but that might just have been from not having broken them in much).
I can see that being used to having to rock up a long way, going to a higher heel and discovering that you don't have to go so far would be very frightening.
What I'm not sure about is how this heel height bit translates into picking for toe-jumps. I suspect I'm pointing my toes a lot more now, especially as I've managed to miss the toe-pick.
My biggest problem really has been spinning as I've found that my weight has moved back because of the lower heel height and I'm deliberately moving it forward now to find the sweet spot (the sweet spot's not moved but my body weight has).
I know that all my problems are heel height as I've switched to exactly the same blades (they're slightly longer on the new boots) and I compared the blades before I fitted the new ones. I was cursing the blades when I first used them as they feel so very different from what I was used to.
I've still not properly switched over (I'm promising myself next week) so I'm still getting used to them, but I've been wearing them once a week or so for the last two months and have got used to the change in heel height and don't seem to have too many problems if I switch mid practice session (once I refind my spin!). I think a lot of my issues are just not fully being confident in the new boots and not having enough knee bend.

Hope this helps.

Incidentally my skate technician was talking about putting rubber heels under the blade to raise the heel height (if I was really unhappy, he'd do this to match the old boots), but we didn't discuss what to do if you wanted to do the reverse.

[GoSveta]

Yea, that makes a bit of sense. When I first got the boots and blades the first thing I noticed was how much rocker the blade was, and how much SHORTER it felt compared to my old blades. I'm starting to think this may be all in my head, now, after looking at the tracing. I think my camera or image touch-up/auto-adjust may have done something to make the blades look a lot curvier than they actually are (perhaps in an attempt to straighten the picture, etc.).

I'm planning on moving to custom boots in the next 6 months or so, to try to remove all doubts, about these things...

But I wanna get through all these single jumps before then, so I can start working on my Axel in the harness.

These jumps are easy. The only reason I can see myself having issues with them, is because I'm a headcase at the moment.

Oh well. Back to searching for program music!

[fsk8r]

Yea, that makes a bit of sense. When I first got the boots and blades the first thing I noticed was how much rocker the blade was, and how much SHORTER it felt compared to my old blades. I'm starting to think this may be all in my head, now, after looking at the tracing. I think my camera or image touch-up/auto-adjust may have done something to make the blades look a lot curvier than they actually are (perhaps in an attempt to straighten the picture, etc.).

I'm planning on moving to custom boots in the next 6 months or so, to try to remove all doubts, about these things...

But I wanna get through all these single jumps before then, so I can start working on my Axel in the harness.

These jumps are easy. The only reason I can see myself having issues with them, is because I'm a headcase at the moment.

Oh well. Back to searching for program music!

My dance boots I spent ages researching blades and boots and stuck with Jacksons cos I knew my sizing and picked blades with the same radius as my free so I'd not have issues changing blades, so I got them and felt completely at home. I've now bought new free boots, changed manufacturers to grafs and stuck with the same blade as before thinking that this would make for easy switch between dance and free. No one mentioned heel height to me before! If I'd have known I'd have replaced the free boots like for like just to save myself this hassle.
However as someone who currently switches between 3 pairs of boots (which is a little on the excessive side), I can say you can get used to all the different bits with heel heights and blades.

Is the actual blade shorter than your old ones? I know I've gone up a length as I ordered them separately from the boots.

And interesting that you're having the exact same experience as me but in reverse and you're having jump issues and I'm having spin problems. It's probably good for me to have spin issues as I've got to really concentrate to centre the spins and as I can spin from here to the next town, the blade issues mean I'm focussing on where my weight is and hopefully helping me to learn how to control the spins better.

And if heel height is such an issue, why isn't there more written about what height heels the different manufacturers have on their boots? People tell me about some manufacturers having wider fittings than others, but no one says they've got higher heels!

[GoSveta]

Yea, the blade is shorter, but the boots are a smaller size as well.

I know the boots/blade are the correct size/length becuase if the boots were any smaller... My feet would file for divorce.

[icestalker]

And if heel height is such an issue, why isn't there more written about what height heels the different manufacturers have on their boots? People tell me about some manufacturers having wider fittings than others, but no one says they've got higher heels!

It actually varies within manufacturers' models. My Riedell Gold Medallions have a half-inch shorter heel than my Riedell 112s did. Can't really think of any reasons why heel height is lower on the more advanced boot.

Some blades also have lower stanchions [sp?] than others, making you closer to the ice overall.

[Query]

And if heel height is such an issue, why isn't there more written about what height heels the different manufacturers have on their boots? People tell me about some manufacturers having wider fittings than others, but no one says they've got higher heels!

I think some brands and models let you order boots with your choice of heel heights, and certainly on custom boots. Many brands and models also let you seperately specify toe, arch and heel widths, and different lengths and widths for the left and right feet, even on non-custom sizes.

Such a shame there are no places to go to rent elite level boots and blades to determine what you really like. It would make the process so much easier. Especially if they used interchangeable blades (using some sort of bolt-through mounting system). Even if you buy custom, it is hard to guess exactly what you would like best.

I had a recent puzzling experience. I left my boots home, and rented what was available. They had several boot styles. I found an off-brand pair with ski-boot style buckles! that actually fit well, and supported my feet right (with paper towels stuffed inside my socks to get the footbed left-to-right and back-to-front slant right), and didn't need to be shimmed. And yet, I could hardly skate at all, for the two hours I tried, because of minor differences in blade shape. I must be very slow to adapt.

P.S. The slant of the foot bed inside the skate affects how you skate, not the visually apparent external heel height.

P.P.S. GoSveta - I'm so sorry. I obviously can't read. I didn't realize you had had these blades 7 months. By that time, the blade profile depends as much on what your sharpener does as on the original blade shape. MK probably won't replace the blades free at this point! I hope you found a cheap internet way to call them, and didn't waste too much money on the phone bill.

[GoSveta]

I just got off the phone with the MK guy (he called me) and he said it looks like the sharpener messed the blade up. He said it looks like someone flattened the rocker, so I'll either have to take them back and ask the sharpener to put the rocker back to how it was before or buy new blades.

I didn't start having these issues until the guy here started sharpening my blades, so I'm 100% sure that's where the issue came from.

I'll prolly just deal with it until I can get some new blades, or whatever. Not even gonna bother dealing with the liability/blame issues for this shoddy work that was done to my blades.

Needless to say... I'm pissed.

[Bill_S]

Since you posted your tracing, I've used that to overlay two tracings of Coronation Aces (they overlay each other closely, but careful scrutiny reveals minor differences).

You can see that you have more rocker than the Aces I've traced. The tail bends away sharply, and you have more metal in the front part of the bladed too. Your blade is more curved.

FWIW...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/skating/images/rightbladetracingoverlay.gif

[Sessy]

Sveta, FWIW, you're far from the first to have a sharpener screw up.

BTW, didn't one of the guys around here have a shiny review on the Pro-Filer and how it's impossible to mess your blades up using that?

[GoSveta]

Bill. So what does that mean. I'm having a blonde moment.

EDIT: Nevermind. I see too much was taken off hte back of the blade. Someone sharpened it like a Hockey Blade, almost, it looks like.

[Query]

1. It's very possible to mess things up with Pro-Filer. That's how I learned I should photocopy the new blades, before they are touched, so I can keep the original profile if I want to.

I sharpen my own blades to keep control. No one else to blame or get mad at.

2. Your blades were not sharpened like hockey blades - just a little like them. Look at pictures of hockey blades and you will see.

3. Who is at fault can no longer be determined.

4. Don't throw away your blades. A good sharpener could give you the profile you want now, on your current blades - e.g., the same as what Bill_S posted, or matching a new blade of the right type. Ask around the rink for the best sharpening pro, or ask your coach. BTW, it's too much metal to do yourself with Pro-Filer.

[Query]

You can easily make mistakes by comparing blade tracings of two different length blades.

Neither GoSveta nor Bill_S state the length of blades used for their tracings. They may be different lengths. Too bad they didn't include rulers in their images. (Unless Bill_S carefully looked at the scale fields in the scanned images, and nobody used software that changed the scale? That's a lot of assumptions.)

E.g., if you shrink one to match the length of the other, that will also shrink the rocker diameter by the same factor!

To some extant, you can overcome this if you print them at the original scales, and only look at the front of the blade. In particular, a sharpener showed me a template MK had sold him many years ago. He said (back then) that all MK blades were designed with that profile.

But that may not be completely true: the sweet spot (rocker change) position should be wherever the skater wants to spin, because that is where it is easiest and stablest to spin. In addition, many figure skating blades have a flattened rocker at the tail, so the skater doesn't roll off the back.

So maybe you can only compare with new blades of the same length. And even there - MK/Wilson is widely said to create somewhat inconsistent blade shapes. To complicate matters, many sharpeners "compensate" for this by deliberately re-profiling new blades their own way - so unless you know the sharpener hasn't yet done this, your new blade profile doesn't match what the manufacturer intended.

The optimal but somewhat infrequently approach is to figure out what blade shape you want (I can't give you an exact way to do that), and have a good sharpener match the desired profile, recognizing that if you so modify a blade with a substantially different rocker profile, you waste a lot of metal and therefore substantially reduce the blade lifetime. E.g., if you take a 7' rocker diameter blade and give it an 8' rocker, or vice versa, you will take off so much metal that it won't last long, you may even immediately take yourself out of the well-tempered (and durable) portion of the steel.

(One thing that bothers me is that the remaining tempered (gray) portion at the bottom of your blades is fairly uniform in height, indicating no large changes have been made since manufacture.)

GoSveta: you might hypothetically want: a flatter (larger) rocker at the tail (so you don't roll off the back, if that is an issue) and near the toe (so it is easier to reach the toe pick), and a better matched rocker in the center (so the feel of the roll along the rocker will be more uniform up to the sweet spot, eliminating the "roller coaster"), while creating an emphasized sweet spot at the point(s) you want to stably spin and pivot, is likely attainable. You just need to find a good sharpener (or "skate technician") who does "custom profiles". You may pay extra for a custom profile change than for a normal sharpening, and to drive a long way to get to the good sharpener. You may need a couple iterations to get everything perfect. Nothing I just said is black magic and it is all "obvious" - but not everyone has the skill, confidence and experience.

I don't know what you means when you say the blades are destroying your edges. Maybe the boots are too stiff, the blade height isn't sufficient, the blades are too wide, or something else? You have to figure it out yourself. Maybe a coach can help?

If you live near Washington, DC, at least two local sharpeners have done custom figure blade profiles - Don Giese and Mike Cunningham, whose links are in my pages (http://mgrunes.com/boots/BootExpert.html) under "boot fitters". Possibly Chuck Fox and Tim Burt too. Otherwise you can ask other picky figure skaters whom they like. No matter who you choose, ask the person who will do the work whether they feel up to it, and get an appointment.

Clearly what we need is a computerized tool that will cheaply cut and re-cut our blade runners out of inexpensive blanks to exactly the shape we want, and a good mounting system to repeatedly remove and replace the runners, so we can all experiment without limits. Unfortunately, such a tool would be quite expensive.

[GoSveta]

(One thing that bothers me is that the remaining tempered (gray) portion at the bottom of your blades is fairly uniform in height, indicating no large changes have been made since manufacture.)

I noticed that, so I went and looked at a bunch of blades and notice that quite a few of those I looked at have a curve similar to mine. I wonder if it's just all in my head and my boots are still kinda stiff. They don't look broken in, but I can still bend in them. I wonder if my legs are just gaining strength and compensating instead of the boot actually breaking in to allow me to bend.

I have a lesson today and will try tying them in a different way to see what goes on. I'll work on jumps today and bring up the toepick and edge issue again.

My blade length is 10.25 inches. The picture I posted is the real length of the blade. It's on a size 7 Klingbeil C S-2 boot.

Maybe I just need a blade with a bigger toe pick? I was looking at some Ultima Blades, and they look a bit yummy. They have a nice low-weight model, as well.

[dbny]

I wonder if it's just all in my head and my boots are still kinda stiff.

Here are a few exercises to help if that's it:


Bunny hop, bunny hop, bunny hop! This is the quintessential jump for learning to get up to the toe for take off.
Do a backward one foot glide and roll up to the toe, trying to stay on the spin spot for as long as possible. Be sure your core and shoulders/arms are tight and strong first.
Stand at the boards (facing them), with your weight to the center/back of the blades, and bend knees, rocking to the toes.
Same thing, with weight at center/front of blades.

[Query]

Bunny hop, bunny hop, bunny hop! This is the quintessential jump for learning to get up to the toe for take off.

She wants an axel and you want her to bunny hop?

Based on what I thought I was taught (which might be wrong), and on

http://www.skatingfitness.com/IceSkating-Figure-Skating-Jumps.htm

http://gofigureskating.com/glossary.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hop_jump

a bunny hop is an edge jump, though you land on a toe.

I.E., I think "Bunny hop, bunny hop, bunny hop!" means (for left jumpers):

leap left edge, land left toe, step right edge,
leap left edge, land left toe, step right edge,
leap left edge, land left toe, step right edge?

So how does it help reach the toe for take off? Do you roll all the way onto your toe pick before you jump?

I like to practice repeated backwards bunny hops. There aren't many things I can do that "real" skaters can't, but haven't met anyone else who tries them backwards, maybe because there is a slight risk of a fall.

Oops, off topic again.

[Isk8NYC]

Bunny hops roll up to the toepick for takeoff. They're considered an edge jump in the same way all other edge jumps use the toepick for the last smidge. The bottom toepick leaves the ice last.

I think if a bunny hop that lands on the takeoff toe is considered a "double bunny hop." (Not kidding. I've heard it called that.)

Actually, "Bunny hop, bunny hop, bunny hop!" means "left edge-to-toe takeoff, land right toe, step left edge"
That sets up the pattern to repeat the jump any number of times since you're finishing the jump on the same edge needed for entry.

Bunny hops are used in a few ways as an excellent teaching drill for waltz jumps as well as an axel drill.

If you delay in bringing the free foot through, that will help build takeoff height since the takeoff foot has to work that much harder to find the front of the blade.

If you delay the takeoff, it builds confidence in the kick through since the skater "follows" the free leg into the jump.

To gain the most height on an axel, you have to be willing to wait for the peak before changing position in the air. That timing is critical.


Backwards bunny hops? Do you change arms and bring the free leg through to the back? Sounds like you're doing a falling leaf, half-salchow or similar. I'm not sure what that drill would be useful for, though, if you're taking off from an edge - it's a not teaching proper technique.

[Query]

Backwards bunny hops? Do you change arms and bring the free leg through to the back?

Exactly, though I'ved played with doing different things with my arms. Since I take off from the edge, I think of what I do, backwards and forwards, as a swing roll with enough extra momentum to get into the air.

To a non-competitor "proper technique" is doing what I want to do, not what someone else thinks is right.

Too bad if my forwards BH is something else. I'll try your way too. Let's see which is easier. It sounds as if the normal bunny hop doesn't get very high into the air, or travel very far.

Now if I could do an axel, or even a decent single rotation jump, that would be something. But unlikely. All the real jumps probably require an order of magnitude more core and leg strength than I've ever had, so lessons weren't getting me anywhere. I'm over 50, so it's hard to develop into a real athlete now.

[GoSveta]

I'm a guy (black skate boot, etc.) :)

I had a lesson today and my jumps are much better. I think I'm getting over the confidence hump. I landed some great toe loops and waltz jumps, and got the Salchow.

Coach said a bit part of my issue was the fact that I wasn't jumping forward in my jumps, just going up and spinning. She also noted that I tend to put all my weight on the back of the blade, and that I should always be somewhat forward over my blade, to help me get over to the toe easier (if you stay far back, you get to the situations where you cannot shift your weight forward i.e. in Salchow).

Showed me a different way to do my edges that seems to help.

I'm feeling so relieved, now. I think this was the most productive lesson I've ever had.

P.S. In a bunny hop (forward), the toe leaves the ice last. There are drills that coaches use to help skaters with axel takeoffs that involve the bunny hop (and Waltz). Isk8NYC is right. The longer you let the free foot dangle back there, the harder it is to get to the toe. That was part of my issue, and that's why I asked if maybe being hesitant going into the jump was the issue. After workign on the Salchow today, I'm pretty sure that was a big issue for me. If you're going to do the jump, you need to just do it not go halfway and take a tea break to think about it before preceeding...

Proper technique is proper technique whether or not you're competitive or recreational...

[fsk8r]

If you're going to do the jump, you need to just do it not go halfway and take a tea break to think about it before preceeding...


That sounds like me doing a lutz. Coach took out the back edge setup and moved me onto a mohawk-cross as that way I've not got time to drink a pot of tea before take off!

But we were discussing my freak out moment on jumps today. It used to be before I took off on a toe-loop. I've now got it happening mid-air or better still on landing. she's quite happy if I do it on landing as it means I'm going too fast to panic on the way in! Personally I think I'm better freaking out cos another skater's too close as the focus gets distracted from freaking on the jump!

[Query]

Proper technique is proper technique whether or not you're competitive or recreational...

Depends what you mean by "proper". If you want to pass tests and win competitions, you want to follow figure skating "standards".

If you want to move easily, comfortably, and efficient, or even just move healthily, or if you want to play around with improvising different forms of motion, those standards are irrelevant.

P.S. I just realized that I got confused about the Bunny Hop. I let myself be confused by the common language and dance usage in which the foot that initiates the move names the move (i.e., a right leap means the left foot initially stays planted on the ground, while the right foot swings into the air) with the peculiar skating usage in which the (initial) foot on the ice names the move.

[GoSveta]

Also the layer of moleskin i added to the front of my super feet... It doesn't seem like a lot but it sure feel different. That's definitely a keeper for me. Makes my skates feel more snug up front and I don't have to overtie them as much up there.

I need a new sharpening, but I'm planning on taking a vacation in a few weeks, so I may wait on that. (Well, it's Vacation or new custom boots... Such a hard decision!!!).