Walley Jump Discussion

[daisies]

What is different about this jump is that there is no weight transfer in the air. It is the only jump (besides inside axel) where the weight stays over the take off side.
There's no weight transfer in the air on a flip or lutz either, if you're doing them properly. There's also no weight transfer in the air on a walley.

[vesperholly]

There's no weight transfer in the air on a flip or lutz either, if you're doing them properly. There's also no weight transfer in the air on a walley.

Well, there is kind of a backwards shift from left to right foot on the flip and lutz takeoffs. I think what Pandora means is that the entrance of a loop is the same as the takeoff foot, so you're jumping without the impetus of a toe pick or free leg action.

[Pandora]

Good point. On flip and lutz, weight transfer is actually on the ground (from edge to pick) not the air (so I probably should have just said weight transfer.) Good catch. :D However, on walley weight transfer is in the air from inside edge to outside edge (the jump actually "changes direction" in mid air as you throw it behind you). So, yeah, there's a nasty weight transfer in the air on the walley jump (which is probably one of the reasons why we rarely see them.) ;)

[daisies]

However, on walley weight transfer is in the air from inside edge to outside edge (the jump actually "changes direction" in mid air as you throw it behind you). So, yeah, there's a nasty weight transfer in the air on the walley jump (which is probably one of the reasons why we rarely see them.) ;)
I disagree. You transfer weight by going from one side to the other. In a walley takeoff, you never have weight on the left side (assuming you jump CCW); you are mistaking riding a RBI edge for having your weight on your left side, and that's not correct -- at least it's not if the edge and jump are done properly. You still need to be over your right side to ride any right inside edge, otherwise you'll fall into the circle. (Similarly, if you're not over your right side on any right outside edge, you'll be on a flat or fall to the inside.)

[Pandora]

No. You jump off of the RBI edge (for CCW) that is why the walley is so hard becase you have to jump off the inside edge and "catch" it behind you and transfer the weight in the other direction so that it can land over the outside edge (otherwise you'd be doing a kind of "funky salchow" (with your feeleg behind you) in the wrong direction (CW) since you are taking off the the BI edge of your own landing foot.

Here is Yu-na Kim doing the walley. http://<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/d2H9I9lugUk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/d2H9I9lugUk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> (http://www.youtube.com/v/d2H9I9lugUk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/d2H9I9lugUk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>)

That takeoff is off the BI of the landing foot with means the weight has to transfer in the air. (That's why this jump is so nasty.) ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walley_jump

Oh I see what the problem is!! You are assuming that becuase the skater is on the right foot (CCW) she is automatically over the right side when she is jumping. Not so. In a true walley (done off the inside edge) the skater is actally jumping into a counter rotation (they are jumping the "wrong way" or CW, they need to transfer their direction to their own way (CCW) in the air. Like I said, nasty jump.:cry:

[daisies]

I know what a walley is. I have been doing them since 1980.

Counter-rotation and weight transfer are not the same thing. Nor are change of edge and weight transfer. A lutz is a counter-rotation jump, and, as we established earlier, there is no weight transfer in the air on a lutz. The same way a flip is a loop off the toe, a lutz is a walley off the toe. (It is. Think about it.)

The only difference with the walley is that the free leg is behind upon takeoff and not in front, and it's tricky to get the leg in front in the air -- but that's not the same as a weight transfer. Transfer weight to the left, and the left leg goes down, just like a scale; you can't hold a leg up and put weight on it at the same time.

(Anyone else find the participants of this argument ironic? ;))

BringMeToLife, I apologize for hijacking your thread!

[Pandora]

:giveup: Maybe we are just using different phrases. I use "weight transfer" for the counter rotation motion in the air from RBI to ROB edge. You don't use that term but stick with "counter rotation" because it is the same leg. But the fact remains that the weight "catches" and transfers from the left side to the right side. So if you want me to change the term from weight transfer to counter rotation in the air I'll do it for you. Because I like you so much! :D :giveup:

And daisies please post walley. I'd love to study it. I can only do it off a flat. :cry: I can't seem to manage a real one off the inside edge. I'd like to study yours. :bow:

[daisies]

Yes, we are definitely using different terminology. But to be clear, a change of edge, like RBI-RBO, isn't the same as a weight transfer. It's a shift in body position, but the weight stays on the same side. For instance, in a serpentine or paragraph figure, if you change from RBI to RBO, your weight doesn't shift to the left but your body position adjusts as you come up on your knee to make the change and then back down on the knee.

For a walley, the key actually is to not transfer your weight to the left. The counter-rotation will make you want to naturally do it, but you have be strong on the right and not let it go there.

I don't have DVD capability on my computer, so right now I can't convert any of my DVDs to post to YouTube. But I will ask a friend to help me out and hopefully I will get something up next week.

[Pandora]

daisies,
I know we are hijacking the thread, (sorry Bringmetolife):oops:, but I'm so glad you are going to put up the video (if you can.) Thanks!! :D Seriously, (I'm not being sarcastic or anything.) I've always wanted to learn this jump but it is so hard for me to do. :cry: And no one at the rink does it so I can't see it done except on video. Walley has been on my "wish list" forever along with the open axel, delayed axel, russian split and tuck axel. (Well, ok, I realize the tuck axel is delusional.....but it is a wish list.) ;) Thanks again. I mean it. :D (And even if you can't get up the video maybe I will take some vids of mine and post them so you can have a look. I'd love to finally get this jump!!) :frus:

[RachelSk8er]

(Anyone else find the participants of this argument ironic? ;))



:bow::bow:

I was trying to get my wally but they were more like wonky, really bad loops because I'd change takeoff edge at the last second. My coach had me break it down with a really good drill to get the takeoff down. Basically you set up like you're doing a RBI counter, but rather than turning when you hit your axis, you jump off the inside edge and land forward. It really helped to get the feeling of not transferring your weight and using your counter-rotation. We haven't worked on them since March since we got so busy getting ready for ANs, must make a mental note to get back to that.

[sk8tmum]

sk8stuff.com has a description plus a video.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_walley.htm

My kid had the coach teach a walley just because the name sounded amusing ... sigh.

[kayskate]

The walley is a tough one. I tried to get it several yrs ago. I had trouble jumping of an inside. At the last moment, I changed edges and did a loop. I tried 1/2 walleys also which are easier but did not translate into a full walley. However, the 1/2 walley method may work for someone else. It's worth a try.

Kay

[daisies]

Basically you set up like you're doing a RBI counter, but rather than turning when you hit your axis, you jump off the inside edge and land forward.
That's a great exercise! A walley truly is a counter in the air. Where were your arms? For an RBI counter, I'd be leading with my left arm, but for a walley that arm should be in front and the right one back ... sort of like RBI rocker arms. ;)

No one at the rink does it....
Probably because it's (sadly) worth nothing in IJS. :( It's a great transition but highly underappreciated. I used to do three in a row in a program, but in recent years I've only been doing them "solo" because more aren't worth the time they take.

[doubletoe]

Probably because it's (sadly) worth nothing in IJS. :( It's a great transition but highly underappreciated. I used to do three in a row in a program, but in recent years I've only been doing them "solo" because more aren't worth the time they take.

It really is too bad that IJS is geared towards the few skaters in the world who are doing triple jumps. Otherwise, I'll bet the walley would be given a value, probably at least 0.8. Have you ever seen a double walley? Stefan Lindemann used to do one in exhibition and it was just unbelievable. Now *that* is a hard jump!

[kayskate]

I would love to see the clip of Lindemann's 2walley. If anyone has a link, please post.

If the walley is not given a value, that explains why we don't see them in competition. However, I wonder why skaters don't do triple walleys. That would have to be valued. I can't believe these are too hard for men who are doing quads and 3axels and hard 3-3 combos.

Kay

[daisies]

If the walley is not given a value, that explains why we don't see them in competition. However, I wonder why skaters don't do triple walleys. That would have to be valued.
You answered your own question: A single walley isn't given a value, and therefore a double and triple have no value. It's not a listed jump. I suppose if people started doing them as doubles and triples, the ISU would consider adding the walley to the list. But that will probably never happen, because who in the elite ranks will work on them? They're too busy trying to get full credit for was is listed!

[coconut]

[QUOTE=daisies;416341]That's a great exercise! A walley truly is a counter in the air. Where were your arms? For an RBI counter, I'd be leading with my left arm, but for a walley that arm should be in front and the right one back ... sort of like RBI rocker arms. ;)

When I pictured a counter in my mind, I always landed forward, like a counter exit. How do you do one full rotation? Thanks.

[RachelSk8er]

That's a great exercise! A walley truly is a counter in the air. Where were your arms? For an RBI counter, I'd be leading with my left arm, but for a walley that arm should be in front and the right one back ... sort of like RBI rocker arms. ;)


Exactly, the arms are opposite. But your lower body is basically doing a counter but jumping the turn.

Must remember to do this tonight when I'm at the rink :)

I actually think I see more people doing walleys under IJS than in the past (when I say "past" I mean mid 80s-early 00s. If you go back and watch ooold skating videos they were pretty popular). It's not a jump, but if you can do them, they're great to put in footwork or transitions and show off without having a jump counted. There are a few teenagers at my rink who can single walley in both directions, they really use that to their advantage (one choreographer who works with a lot of the high level skaters at my rink has several of them who [assuming they are r-handed jumpers] will walley on the L foot, which puts them on a LBO edge to take off for a double lutz, walley-double toe walley is also another popular one). If it fits the music and the skater can do it will, it can factor into PCS scores.

Coaches seem to be teaching them again, whereas I never learned how to do one when I was learning to skate in the mid-80s.

I wonder if we will eventually see it count as a jump though, if a half loop is now being viewed as a jump. Along with other quirky things that are not technically jumps but can be used in the same way to link jump sequences and push the rules a bit (one footed sals, one footed axels, etc--which are the same concept as a half loop, they're a recognized jump of the full rotation landed on the wrong foot).

[vesperholly]

For those who do walleys, what kind of entrance do you practice? I'm intrigued by the "jumped counter" angle.

[RachelSk8er]

For those who do walleys, what kind of entrance do you practice? I'm intrigued by the "jumped counter" angle.

I see a lot of people do them from power pulls, but if you're just learning, treating it like a jumped counter seems the best way to get it down (because they do feel very, very awkward when you first start doing them). Trying them from power pulls makes it really easy to delay the take-off too long until you've either flattened or completely changed edges, and at that point you're just doing a really bad loop. And if that happens in a program, that can have bad consequences (giving you too many loops and/or causing you to lose credit for an actual well-executed jump down the road). My coach and I started working on them back in Feburary with the goal of putting one in my program, but that's why we tabled it until after ANs--didn't want me to screw it up if it was bad when I already had the maximum number of jumps and used up all my loops.

Going the "set up like a RBI counter but jumping instead" route, you can do some nice footwork into it (and have the last step be something like a RBI double-3 to put you on that RBI edge where you need to be). Like RBO twizzle, change edge [without putting the free foot down], RBI double 3, ride that exit edge for a second, walley, double toe? That would be sweeeet. I'll keep dreaming (mostly about the double toe, although chances are I'll have that clean before my axel).

[daisies]

When I pictured a counter in my mind, I always landed forward, like a counter exit. How do you do one full rotation? Thanks.
Yes, a back counter will bring you forward. I should have said the takeoff is a counter. I suppose the jump itself would be a BI counter and a FI 3-turn in the air.

For those who do walleys, what kind of entrance do you practice? I'm intrigued by the "jumped counter" angle.
I do LFO 3-turn, step to RBI edge, then jump. I agree with RachelSk8er that power pulls are a bad way to learn. They take away all your momentum. I watch coaches teach that way all the time, and all I can do is shake my head.

[sk8er1964]

I do LFO 3-turn, step to RBI edge, then jump. I agree with RachelSk8er that power pulls are a bad way to learn. They take away all your momentum. I watch coaches teach that way all the time, and all I can do is shake my head.

I third this opinion. I just started doing them again myself.

I have been competition announcing the past two days. I've seen quite a few walleys in the intermediate through senior events

[AgnesNitt]

A CBC video (http://www.nfb.ca/film/king_of_blades/) (very pretty) of Don Jackson. There are what I think are walley's and a half walley at 3, 14 45, and 1540. Also at the very end 1630, what I guess are piston rolls.

Maybe we need a fixed thread with little video pointers to stuff you never see anymore: arabians, piston rolls, etc. Nobody does this stuff at my rink

[kayskate]

I have started a page of links to interesting skating moves on my site. It is a work in progress, but feel free to visit and add your link ideas.
www.skatejournal.com/unique.html

Loved the Jackson vid! Plenty of great walleys there. Also love is blurred scratch spins. He stepped right out of one into a 2axel. it looked like part of the spin. Awesome! ~14:50

Kay

[RachelSk8er]

I have started a page of links to interesting skating moves on my site. It is a work in progress, but feel free to visit and add your link ideas.
www.skatejournal.com/unique.html

Loved the Jackson vid! Plenty of great walleys there. Also love is blurred scratch spins. He stepped right out of one into a 2axel. it looked like part of the spin. Awesome! ~14:50

Kay

You need the video of Paula Smart's alternating ina bauers. I know I've seen it on facebook but didn't have any luck finding it on youtube.