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Isk8NYC
04-27-2010, 12:56 PM
Just a note that the proposals/requests for action for the USFSA Governing Council are available for review on the USFSA Members Only website.

https://www.usfsaonline.org/GoverningCouncil
You have to log in using your USFSA number and password.

The Adult Committee requested that MITF tests be changed to use three separate passing scores: Standard (Current), Adult (21-49), and Masters (50+/Intermediate or higher). It was approved by the GC.



Test Level | Standard | Adult | Masters
Pre-Preliminary | Pass/Retry | N/A | N/A
Preliminary | 2.5 | N/A | N/A
Pre-Juvenile | 2.7 | N/A | N/A
Juvenile | 3 | N/A | N/A
Intermediate | 3.2 | 3 | 2.8
Novice | 3.5 | 3.3 | 3.1
Junior | 4 | 3.8 | 3.6
Senior | 4.5 | 4.3 | 4.1
Adult Bronze | N/A | 2.5 | 2.3
Adult Gold | N/A | 3 | 2.8
Adult Pre-Bronze | N/A | Pass/Retry | N/A
Adult Silver | N/A | 2.7 | 2.5




They amended the rule on using vocals in test and competition music, really just clarifying its use for Adult singles and pairs. The original wording only specified its use in standard-track testing, this specifically sets the Adult Silver level as the upper limit of use.

3501 Music - Singles, Pairs and Dance
3502 For singles, pairs and dance, music is chosen by the competitor except for compulsory dances;

A. For singles and pairs short program and free skate, vocal music with lyrics is not permitted, except as follows:
1. For all short and free skate programs up to and including intermediate level and for all events using the 6.0 system of judging, vocal music with lyrics is permitted.
2. For all adult free skate programs up to and including the adult silver level, vocal music with lyrics is permitted, regardless of the judging system.
3. For all adult pair programs up to and including the adult silver level, vocal music with lyrics is permitted, regardless of the judging system.



GC blogger: http://governingcouncil2010.blogspot.com/ (http://governingcouncil2010.blogspot.com/)

Also on Twitter: http://twitter.com/meharty (http://twitter.com/meharty)

Clarice
04-27-2010, 01:27 PM
I'm really, really happy about the new testing tracks for MIF. This means that I can realistically attempt to test Intermediate MIF (and hopefully beyond!). I'm over 50 years of age, and would be very unlikely to pass on the standard track. Now I just have to talk to my coach about whether to do Adult or Masters!

RachelSk8er
04-27-2010, 01:33 PM
I told my coach about the MIF standard when I found out about the proposal, and his response was "too bad, you've come all this way and have 2 tests left, you're still doing the standard passing mark." We'll see about that....:halo:

I assume this takes effect in September with the rest of the MIF changes? Or is it going to be sooner? Regardless, my plan was to pass junior by September and then tackle senior.

Isk8NYC
04-27-2010, 01:34 PM
I like it as well -- the measure offers a lot of encouragement and opportunity for adults. There's no restriction saying that an adult taking Intermediate can't blow away the standard passing score, so there's no downside.

Skittl1321
04-27-2010, 01:35 PM
With the new testing ages does that mean there is no more Adult tests?
Since the current tests overlap the skills on the other tests, where does that put the crossover. (If I have to do the freaking 5-step mohawk again I'm going to cry.)

/never mind I see that there are still the other tests. Poor reading comphrension here.
So you can't take the low tests at an "adult" level. It's only one you are out of adult tests.

Isk8NYC
04-27-2010, 01:41 PM
So you can't take the low tests at an "adult" level. It's only one you are out of adult tests.An adult skater can take and pass ANY of the standard-track tests, it's just that the lower ones (Pre-Prel through Juvenile) don't have different passing scores for the different age groups. Everyone is held to the same score.

I didn't read anything about crossover points in the proposal. They're in some document on the USFSA site, but I don't remember where. Maybe someone else can post a link.

RachelSk8er
04-27-2010, 01:43 PM
Can someone who is at GC or who knows more about the proposal elaborate on whether passing your senior on the adult passing standard qualifies it as an "adult" gold medal, or does taking senior moves under the adult standard still, in the eyes of USFS, give you a regular gold test? I.e. with dance, if you pass your gold test on the adult standard, it's considered an adult gold dance test, not a gold dance test. Still quite an accomplishment, but not exactly the same as a gold dance test.

We already have an adult gold medal for moves/freestyle tests, and taking the higher moves tests under the adult standard still qualifies you to take the corresponding freeskate test (where there have not been any changes to the passing standard and IMO don't really need to be), so I don't think that any sort of "distinction" has been made. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (Had to run out of the meeting at ANs as this was being discussed, bff was about to compete.)

Debbie S
04-27-2010, 01:51 PM
I have mixed feelings about the MIF Adult/Masters thing. I agree with the creation of Master's standards for the Adult track tests (after all, the track was created for adults to begin with). But I'm not sure about the standard track tests - on one hand, I know most adult-onset skaters get stuck at Novice, and this would be a way for them to keep testing (and passing). OTOH, I think passing a standard track test should mean standard track. If I were to ever pass Int MIF, I would want to be able to proudly say I passed the same standard as the kids (not that I would ever be able to say that, b/c at this point, I have no plans to attempt it). My worry is that if you create an "Adult Intermediate" test, and so on, would there eventually be no separate adult track, just adult tests at each level, similar to dance tests?

And the problem then becomes the Adult FS/competition track - does that still exist, do the names change, etc? And it doesn't mention this in the RFA, but will there by Master's standards for the Adult FS tests, and what about the Int and higher FS tests, for adults.... I would be in favor of Master's standards for Adult FS, but not for standard track, for the same reasons as MIF.

Right now, there is an Adult MIF track which corresponds to the Adult FS track, which corresponds to adult comp. That makes sense to me. And if adult skaters want to test higher MIF and FS (most of those started skating as kids, anyway), they can take the standard track tests.

Another change affecting adults is that the entry deadline for AN and Sectionals would be Feb 1, for both. I think this makes sense.

Skittl1321
04-27-2010, 02:04 PM
I think the introduction of "Masters" for MITF means that "Masters" events be renamed. It was confusing enough when one was a freestyle (skill) and one was a dance (age) thing. But now that MITF (which dancers can take, but don't have to) applies to adults- it makes the Master's designation for the best skaters really confusing!

drskater
04-27-2010, 02:43 PM
I'm in my 40s so I can see that changing the passing average will affect me--some day. However, the rationale for lowering the passing average for MITF to "make allowances for skaters with depreciating skill sets," seems weird without also changing the FS passing average. From what I've observed, it's the freestyle skills that fade with age, not the MITF. Sorry to sound cynical but the proposal also notes the "positive financial impact" on clubs in "encoura[ging] more adults to test."

icedancer2
04-27-2010, 02:45 PM
I think the introduction of "Masters" for MITF means that "Masters" events be renamed. It was confusing enough when one was a freestyle (skill) and one was a dance (age) thing. But now that MITF (which dancers can take, but don't have to) applies to adults- it makes the Master's designation for the best skaters really confusing!

Good point!!

As a skater I welcome the changes - I would love to take my Silver Test but never even felt I could get it to the standard for Adult - now having an opportunity to take it as a "master" (as in over 50) I may consider going for it...

As a judge I'm afraid it will be even more difficult to judge - knowing where to draw the line of acceptable... have to just think about the numbers more I guess...

RachelSk8er
04-27-2010, 02:48 PM
I have mixed feelings about the MIF Adult/Masters thing. I agree with the creation of Master's standards for the Adult track tests (after all, the track was created for adults to begin with). But I'm not sure about the standard track tests - on one hand, I know most adult-onset skaters get stuck at Novice, and this would be a way for them to keep testing (and passing). OTOH, I think passing a standard track test should mean standard track. If I were to ever pass Int MIF, I would want to be able to proudly say I passed the same standard as the kids (not that I would ever be able to say that, b/c at this point, I have no plans to attempt it). My worry is that if you create an "Adult Intermediate" test, and so on, would there eventually be no separate adult track, just adult tests at each level, similar to dance tests?

And the problem then becomes the Adult FS/competition track - does that still exist, do the names change, etc? And it doesn't mention this in the RFA, but will there by Master's standards for the Adult FS tests, and what about the Int and higher FS tests, for adults.... I would be in favor of Master's standards for Adult FS, but not for standard track, for the same reasons as MIF.



I think the benefit of the adult passing standard for the high moves test, aside from it encouraging more testing and encouraging moving up (now that our competition stream allows that better) is consistency.

Right now judges don't really know what to do when it comes to an adult skater taking a high level moves tests and there isn't a whole lot of consistency. A 30 year old going out and doing a junior moves test is probably not going to look as strong/powerful as a 12 year old home schooled skater who took the same test just before that skater. That 30 year old may still do a technically correct, passable test, and some judges will score the test on its own merits, but others will want to see the power/speed they expect more from a kid/teen taking the same test (or the bunch of kids/teens who just took the test will make the adult skater look slower). This is why I'm a fan of the passing standard being lowered--it will probably give more consistency. One of my friends (adult skater) recently passed her senior moves. Failed the first time, passed the second, even though it was a much stronger test the first time--she thinks that this is part of the reason for that. First panel expected her to look like a kid, second panel realized that she was an adult.

Not to mention that kids tend to have MUCH more time to skate. When I was a teenager, outside of 6-8 hours of synchro a week, I also did 3 hrs of moves and dance during synchro season, and doubled that to 6 hrs when my team was not practicing as much in the summer. I was passing tests left and right. Now as an adult, I'm trying to do dance, moves and freestyle on 2 hours of ice per week that I can squeeze in with work/school. Finding the time and the consistency in both my ice time and on the 45 min lesson I get each week is tough to manage. In the fall when I was getting my junior moves ready to test, that meant I did no ice dancing whatsoever and not really a whole lot of freestyle (then I had to go and break my ankle 2 weeks before the test...doh).

And then there are moves on the higher tests that adult skaters are just going to have a harder time with (junior choctaws...super easy if you have hipturnout or are young/flexible...not so much if you're very closed-hipped). Whether you have closed/open hips has nothing to do with your skating ability and shouldn't keep someone from passing a test. Height on spirals is another one. Those issues are already addressed on the lower level adult moves tests, where some elements from the standard tests are omitted.

And the moves passing standard is no different than the dance passing standard in the fact that it is purely optional for the skater. Being a certain age does not automatically require you to take it, you can always choose to take the standard test.

I don't see the need for lower standards on the FS tests because they're based on whether or not you do the elements. A jump passes as long as it has a proper takeoff and is landed on one foot. *Maybe* something could be in the works down the road if people aren't moving up solely due to inability to pass tests (especially since adults do tend to compete more test track--i.e. a little closer to the test requirements at higher levels, at least when it comes to jumps).


Right now, there is an Adult MIF track which corresponds to the Adult FS track, which corresponds to adult comp. That makes sense to me. And if adult skaters want to test higher MIF and FS (most of those started skating as kids, anyway), they can take the standard track tests.

But adults competing don't stop at gold, we have masters levels. The changes to the competition structure (splitting champ intermediate/novice and making the program for it shorter than junior/senior) is supposed to encourage more progression from gold to the masters levels. Not every skater who you see in intermediate, novice, junior or senior skated as a kid. Yes, most of them did, but not all. (Jason Spicer, perfect example.) And just because someone started skating as a kid doesn't mean that their skating ability (with regard to things like speed and power) won't decline over time, or that the higher level tests will come easy to them.


I think the introduction of "Masters" for MITF means that "Masters" events be renamed. It was confusing enough when one was a freestyle (skill) and one was a dance (age) thing. But now that MITF (which dancers can take, but don't have to) applies to adults- it makes the Master's designation for the best skaters really confusing!

Throw synchro into the mix, where "masters" means the majority of the skaters on a team are 35+. I came to adult skating after being a synchro skater for many years (and since I tested dance, knew that masters adult dance tests based on age existed since it's printed on test papers). Needless to say, at my first ANs, when my friend said we were going to watch champ masters ladies, I was REALLY confused when some skaters obviously in their 20s took the ice for warm-up.

Skittl1321
04-27-2010, 02:50 PM
I'm in my 40s so I can see that changing the passing average will affect me--some day. However, the rationale for lowering the passing average for MITF to "make allowances for skaters with depreciating skill sets," seems weird without also changing the FS passing average. From what I've observed, it's the freestyle skills that fade with age, not the MITF. Sorry to sound cynical but the proposal also notes the "positive financial impact" on clubs in "encoura[ging] more adults to test."

I wonder if the depreciating skill set applies more to an adults ability to LEARN to do the MITF as they age, rather than their ability to CONTINUE to do it as they age (which I agree- for youth start skaters- footwork usually stays, jumps go).

By having "adult" passing standards I think it is much more realistic that an adult start skater could pass up the chain (possibly not even getting to senior until Masters standard, even if they did intermediate as adult) then if they had to do standard track. It is a HUGE leap from Gold to standard track.

Clarice
04-27-2010, 02:54 PM
If it's like dance, the "depreciating skills set" is meant to allow for less speed and power, and smaller patterns. We'd still be expected to skate correct patterns on correct edges. In that sense, you don't get any break for age.

icedancer2
04-27-2010, 03:33 PM
I can vouch for the FACT that skills ebb as you age and especially over 50.

I used to be able to do all of the dances solo - most quite well and with confidence - up through the Gold dances.

Now I can do parts of those dances slowly, not on pattern. I can still do all of the forward dances solo. This is after several injuries and then some skills that just kind of "went" over the years. It totally grates on your confidence...

But I'm still out there!!:bow: to me...

drskater
04-27-2010, 04:11 PM
As a judge I'm afraid it will be even more difficult to judge - knowing where to draw the line of acceptable... have to just think about the numbers more I guess...

Interesting. For instance if, for example, a masters Bronze skater does reasonably well to earn, say, a theoretical 2.5, would a judge then "lower" her standard to a 2.3 because she thinks the particular move was just okay to pass (i.e. the judge just mentally substitutes 2.3 for the previous 2.5)? I guess in a perfect world this wouldn't happen. I know from teaching college that you can easily shift the numbers to enable someone to pass a course or whatever. At any rate, it sounds like the real impact of these changes will affect higher levels more than the lower ones.

Skittl1321
04-27-2010, 04:15 PM
Do judges have an actual guide for what those numbers mean?

I've always assumed if they think it's passing they put the passing number on there. If it's incredible a bit more, if it's not passing a bit less.

I'd love to know the actual standard associated with each number.

(This is why my coaches have no idea what the adult passing standards are. They know it's a bit less than the standard track- but the number means nothing to them, so they don't know how much less. So their theory is if it won't pass standard, you aren't ready.)

Debbie S
04-27-2010, 04:24 PM
Do judges have an actual guide for what those numbers mean?This is another problem. Maybe some of those on here who are judges could chime in, but my understanding is that there are no guidelines for judges on what adult standard means. And when they changed the focus of the "power" moves a few years ago to "continuous flow and strenth", I don't believe there were ever guidelines issued about that. I heard a coach say once that she asked a judge at a PSA seminar about judging of adult tests and the judge said they went with "whatever the rulebook says" - but does the rulebook say anything about the judging of adult tests? I've never seen anything, other than the bit about "candidates are expected to...." that is on the test sheet. I've heard of one judge saying she holds adults to the same standard as the kids, b/c there is only one standard.

There is a lot of inconsistency. I'm sure there are inconsistencies on the standard track, too - judging is subjective, after all - but it seems worse for adult tests. I think this (judge education/training) is something that the Adult Committee really needs to take on and speak up about.

vesperholly
04-27-2010, 07:10 PM
An adult standard ... interesting! I might actually attempt my Senior moves test. I wonder what the deal will be with the gold medals, too. I don't know that I much fancy passing my "Adult Senior" moves test. What do they do for the dances passed at adult standards? Hm.

pairman2
04-27-2010, 07:55 PM
RachelSk8er
Well said and agree pretty much with everything you said.

I agree with differing scores in this case. Higher moves are incredibly difficult (but yet a lot of fun) for an aging adult and anyone should feel proud to do them with some moderate flow and proficiency. As was also noted, there's nothing that says you can't score higher then the passing average so if you want the higher passing average, just keep taking the test until you attain it! Fact of the matter is that in my observation, you can do everything technically correct but if you don't have the free fluidity of motion that a kid has, it's rare that you will pass an upper moves test. You have to look like a kid. Idealism aside, that ain't going to happen for most adults. I've watched a lot of pretty good tests skated by kids still end up failing. The lower numerical standards are nothing to sneeze at and still will take a lot of hard work to attain, even more so now with the new upper moves! (Don't forget, the tests just got A LOT harder come Sept 2!)

Pandora
04-28-2010, 07:05 AM
Well, the MITF definitely aren't fun for some of us....;)

I am watchng this closely.8O If it passes it will encourage some of us to try testing within the USFS structure....and if it encourages participation, then it is a good thing all around. :D

RachelSk8er
04-28-2010, 07:33 AM
Well, the MITF definitely aren't fun for some of us....;)

I am watchng this closely.8O If it passes it will encourage some of us to try testing within the USFS structure....and if it encourages participation, then it is a good thing all around. :D

It's not changing anything for lower levels though, only intermediate-senior. So even if people decide to test USFS, they still have to go through pre-prelim-juvenile or adult pre-bronze-gold the same way it has been.

RachelSk8er
04-28-2010, 07:42 AM
An adult standard ... interesting! I might actually attempt my Senior moves test. I wonder what the deal will be with the gold medals, too. I don't know that I much fancy passing my "Adult Senior" moves test. What do they do for the dances passed at adult standards? Hm.

Passing dances under the adult standard is considered an adult gold dance test, not a gold dance test. (Just like adult gold moves=adult gold moves test, adult gold free=adult gold free test.) That applies if you switch at any point from standard to adult--even if you (for whatever reason) have all but 1 gold dance as standard tests and pass that last 1 as an adult test.

From what I understand, you also have to declare up front what test you are doing (standard or adult), just like you do for dance. But the thing is...the tests for moves are going to be exactly the same (whereas dance does make a difference since silver+ requires partner and solo). So if you go out and do a novice test, plan to pass standard, fail but your marks would still pass under the adult standard, too bad, you still have to take it again. You can't just take the adult pass after the fact.

Jocelyn, do what I'll probably wind up doing--*hoping* I get my junior done before September, all I'll have is senior. I'll probably do it as an adult test first time out, see how that goes, and once I pass, try it again as a standard test (at that point, pressure is off, you've technically already passed it).

Pandora
04-28-2010, 07:44 AM
So...Let's see if I have this right. If this new system were to pass, then an adult skater could take adult MITF tests and switch to the new system (lower passing average for adults on standard tests) instead of having to cross over to the standard system (without the "adult handicap" so to speak), right?

So an adult who wanted to test up to standard junior freestyle (so they could skate Masters Junior/Senior) would now only have to pass adult MITF tests up to Gold, then switch over to the standard MITF, (but would have the "adult handicap" at these levels), correct?

If so.....Cool. 8-):)

Skittl1321
04-28-2010, 08:18 AM
I don't know if it's clear yet.

Does an adult i/n/j/s MITF test qualify you to to take a standard track i/n/j/s freeskate test?

Or do you need to pass the standard MITF to qualify to take the standard freeskate?

Did GC qualify that?

Pandora
04-28-2010, 08:30 AM
Good point, skittl.... Very confusing...Will have to wait and see....

RachelSk8er
04-28-2010, 08:37 AM
I don't know if it's clear yet.

Does an adult i/n/j/s MITF test qualify you to to take a standard track i/n/j/s freeskate test?

Or do you need to pass the standard MITF to qualify to take the standard freeskate?

Did GC qualify that?

At ANs when this was announced, Lexi said that the adult MIF test would qualify you to take the standard freeskate test for that level. I do not know if what actually passed at GC reflected this, but it would make sense. One reason for taking moves tests is so that you can take the corresponding freestyle tests.

And even though skaters are elegible to compete at age 21, the moves test don't apply until you are 25. Probably to prevent a number of issues that could arise. 21 yr old passes senior MIF at adult standard, takes senior free skate, can they compete at collegiate nationals? 21 yr old who attends Western Michigan University passes novice MIF at adult standard, does that mean they can skate on that school's senior level synchro team? [USFS requires novice MIF for senior synchro, although most senior teams on their own require higher tests]? Same problems can come up with free dance. The chances of those issues coming up for a skater 25+ are much less.

sk8lady
04-28-2010, 08:42 AM
The stated purpose is as follows:

Rationale: This change provides an option for adults and adult masters to take adult and standard moves in the field tests, but makes allowances for skaters with depreciating skill sets. This structure uses the same formula for computing passing averages as was used for the Adult and Masters Compulsory dance tests.
Financial impact: A positive financial impact on clubs, coaches, rinks and U.S. Figure Skating is anticipated as this should encourage more adults to test. There will be a cost for Headquarters to add these additional tracks to the database.

Seems as if it would be counterproductive to have adults go through Gold, then have them go back and repeat everything through Pre-Juv at the standard level before starting at the Intermediate level on the Masters or Adult track.

Pandora
04-28-2010, 08:47 AM
Great idea!!! I'll be watching this closely. :D

Skittl1321
04-28-2010, 08:48 AM
Seems as if it would be counterproductive to have adults go through Gold, then have them go back and repeat everything through Pre-Juv at the standard level before starting at the Intermediate level on the Masters or Adult track.

What? Why would they have to do that?
Already when you finish Adult Gold you cross over to Intermediate.

And even though skaters are elegible to compete at age 21, the moves test don't apply until you are 25.
Interesting- does the proposal say this? The quote on the first page says Adult starts at 21. (I don't have access to the RFA's because my membership isn't current since I didn't test this year.)

Pandora
04-28-2010, 08:50 AM
P.S. Does any one know where an adult skater who took and passed the standared Pre-Pliminary MITF would start on the Adult MITF tests? (At Pre-Bronze or Bronze?)

Clarice
04-28-2010, 08:59 AM
[QUOTE=RachelSk8er;415159] I do not know if what actually passed at GC reflected this, but it would make sense. QUOTE]

I'd just like to point out that NOTHING has actually passed yet, since Governing Council doesn't begin until tomorrow. Carry on...

rlichtefeld
04-28-2010, 09:03 AM
P.S. Does any one know where an adult skater who took and passed the standared Pre-Pliminary MITF would start on the Adult MITF tests? (At Pre-Bronze or Bronze?)

Looking on page 4 of the Testing Rulebook:
http://usfsa.org/Content/Tests%20Book%20without%20diagrams.pdf

TR 19.01 The standard moves in the field tests are divided into eight classes to be taken in the following order: pre-preliminary, preliminary,
pre-juvenile, juvenile, intermediate, novice, junior and senior.

TR 19.02 The adult moves in the field tests are divided into four classes to be taken in the following order: pre-bronze, bronze, silver and gold.

A. To qualify for any adult moves in the field test, the candidate must be 21 years of age or older and must have passed the preceding adult
moves in the field test.

B. Adult skaters who have passed the adult gold moves in the field test are permitted to take the standard intermediate moves in the field
test without testing the standard pre-preliminary through juvenile moves in the field tests.

C. Adult skaters who have passed standard track moves in the field tests will not be required to take adult MIF tests per the table below.
Standard MIF test passed Adult MIF test not required
Preliminary MIF Adult pre-bronze MIF
Pre-juvenile MIF Adult bronze MIF
Juvenile MIF Adult silver MIF
Intermediate MIF Adult gold MIF

Note: Moves in the field equivalencies are allowed in one direction only from the standard track to the adult track, not from the adult track to
the standard track except as described in TR 19.02 B above.


Rob

Clarice
04-28-2010, 09:05 AM
P.S. Does any one know where an adult skater who took and passed the standared Pre-Pliminary MITF would start on the Adult MITF tests? (At Pre-Bronze or Bronze?)

Yes, this is spelled out in the tests section of the rule book (TR 19.02 C). It says that an adult who has passed the standard Preliminary MIF test is not required to take the Adult pre-bronze MIF test. Therefore, if an adult has only passed the standard Pre-Preliminary test, they would still need to take Pre-Bronze.

By the way, the same rule (section A) clarifies that the adult MIF structure applies to skaters age 21 or older.


Eh - Rob beat me to it!

Pandora
04-28-2010, 09:25 AM
Thanks for the info!!!:D

Well....if this thing passes, guess I'll just have to start at the beginning....Fair enough.

Hope it passes. :)

Isk8NYC
04-28-2010, 09:26 AM
I'd just like to point out that NOTHING has actually passed yet, since Governing Council doesn't begin until tomorrow. Carry on...
Thank you - I thought our club rep was away this week at GC. Each proposal has a vote count after it, so I am a little confused about the process. Whose votes are being counted for these proposals before they're submitted to GC?

This I understand:
Someone submits the proposals to the committees
Someone votes on whether or not to send a "Request for Action" on to GC?
Then, the GC reviews and votes on the proposals, also choosing the effective date for those that pass.

Is it pretty much a rubber-stamp approval, given the preliminary voting that already took place, or are there sometimes debates?

Debbie S
04-28-2010, 10:10 AM
And even though skaters are elegible to compete at age 21, the moves test don't apply until you are 25. That's going to be very confusing. Most test chairs are skating parents that know nothing about adult skating. I understand the rationale as you explained it, but I see the potential for problems - skaters getting confused and signing up for the wrong test, test chairs getting confused when registering or entering results, etc. Couldn't the problem be solved by specifically requiring standard track MIF tests for collegiates and high-level synchro?

Is it pretty much a rubber-stamp approval, given the preliminary voting that already took place, or are there sometimes debates?There are debates if a delegate or group of delegates ask for an item to be isolated and discussed, but I think that also requires a vote. Basically, if the majority want to give a rubber-stamp approval, that's what happens. The votes next to each item in the RFA are the committee votes.

vesperholly
04-28-2010, 11:05 AM
I'd just like to point out that NOTHING has actually passed yet, since Governing Council doesn't begin until tomorrow. Carry on...

Well, that's technically not true. Many items are first passed by the Board of Directors, and only talked about/voted upon by the GC delegates if they're isolated from the RFA at GC. Contentious issues do usually get isolated, but not always.

RachelSk8er
04-28-2010, 11:43 AM
That's going to be very confusing. Most test chairs are skating parents that know nothing about adult skating. I understand the rationale as you explained it, but I see the potential for problems - skaters getting confused and signing up for the wrong test, test chairs getting confused when registering or entering results, etc. Couldn't the problem be solved by specifically requiring standard track MIF tests for collegiates and high-level synchro?


I don't think this will cause any issues. By the time a skater who is in their 20s gets to the point where they are taking intermediate-novice moves, that means they have been skating for a while. They should know what test to sign up for. And any potential headaches can be solved by a simple "(Age 25+)" printed right on the test forms.

Judges should also know. They're supposed to double check the papers they get from the test chair before each group of tests to make sure they have the right skaters, right test forms, etc. On every dance test I've taken since I came back to dance at age 26, the judges have ALWAYS double-checked with me before my test (usually they call me over during the warm-up) to make sure that I am, in fact, taking the standard test.

Or maybe I'm just spoiled at my club since our test chair is a judge (she usually doesn't judge on our club's test sessions to avoid conflict of interest). She was an adult skater and judges adults. Another judge who is a staple at our test sessions is a former adult skater whose husband still competes and can be usually seen on the panel at midwest adult competitions, too. So it helps when there are people around who know the rules. Those two are usually on panels at other rinks' test sessions, so they know what's going on. The test chair before our current one who sometimes helps/fills in is a coach and adult skater (who used to compete dance with husband of previously-mentioned judge).

Skittl1321
04-28-2010, 11:58 AM
RachelSk8er- can you clarify where you are getting 25+, and not 21+ from?

Stormy
04-28-2010, 12:00 PM
Because I just realized they're requesting both the deadlines for Sectionals and Nationals be changed......just thinking out loud about the Sectionals deadline. Easterns was the third weekend in February this year. If they changed the deadline to Feb 1st, that gives the LOC like 3 weeks to know who's entered for the Championship events. Wouldn't they need a little more lead time than that? Usually 3 weeks before a comp people are clamoring for the schedule, not just getting their apps in and let's be honest, a lot of people wait till the last second to get their apps in anyways. Sectionals was in March in 2008, and February in 2009 and was split between February and March in 2010.

I REALLY wish I was going to Governing Council again this year. I'm SO interested to hear the discussions that will go on regarding this and the lower MIF passing averages!

Debbie S
04-28-2010, 12:36 PM
I don't think this will cause any issues. By the time a skater who is in their 20s gets to the point where they are taking intermediate-novice moves, that means they have been skating for a while. They should know what test to sign up for. And any potential headaches can be solved by a simple "(Age 25+)" printed right on the test forms. True, but that's assuming the test chair knows about the rule change and the different test options and age rules for each. It sounds like you have a very knowledgeable test chair, but not every test chair is like that. For a year or two after the min adult age was lowered to 21, I still saw test (and comp) forms with 25+ on them. And most adult skaters I know (unless they're on this board ;)) don't know about various rule changes.

That brings up another issue - how can rule changes from GC be communicated better to the grassroots level? The coaches in my area who coach high-level and elite skaters are generally well-informed about IJS changes and other rules pertaining to their skaters, but other info seems to take a while to trickle down to the rest - I know the PSA sends out GC updates to its members - should the Adult Committee do something like that for adult skaters (if e-mails can be segmented like that)? Are communications sent to test chairs, or to club presidents?

RachelSk8er
04-28-2010, 01:02 PM
RachelSk8er- can you clarify where you are getting 25+, and not 21+ from?

Lexi at the adult committee meeting at ANs.

True, but that's assuming the test chair knows about the rule change and the different test options and age rules for each. It sounds like you have a very knowledgeable test chair, but not every test chair is like that. For a year or two after the min adult age was lowered to 21, I still saw test (and comp) forms with 25+ on them. And most adult skaters I know (unless they're on this board ) don't know about various rule changes.

OK, I'm sorry, but if people don't bother to read something simple, like an applicable age, that is printed on a test form when their job is being the test chair, that's a bigger issue than a rule being confusing. I don't know how you could make that any more clear. And again, an adult skater should be responsible and know what they are signing up for and make sure it is correct when they get there for their test. Which brings me to my next point...

That brings up another issue - how can rule changes from GC be communicated better to the grassroots level? The coaches in my area who coach high-level and elite skaters are generally well-informed about IJS changes and other rules pertaining to their skaters, but other info seems to take a while to trickle down to the rest - I know the PSA sends out GC updates to its members - should the Adult Committee do something like that for adult skaters (if e-mails can be segmented like that)? Are communications sent to test chairs, or to club presidents?

Adult skaters at various clubs also need to educate themselves and speak up and be a resource, whether it's serving on their club's board or simply being a point of contact. Coaches who don't really work with adults aren't going to just know the rules for adult skating, although the hope is that they will familiarize themselves with them if and when they do coach an adult. (That's like expecting someone who doesn't coach synchro to know the rules for synchro...they don't. There is no reason to.) Board members who are the typical parent of a kid who skates, at a club with very few or no adult skaters, won't really know that either. So as an adult skater, know the rules or know where to find them or who to point people to. Take it upon yourselves to educate people in your club and our coaches, or to serve as a reference when someone has a question. Don't wait around for the USFS or PSA to do it for you. You'll probably be waiting a looong time.

drskater
04-28-2010, 01:38 PM
Adult skaters at various clubs also need to educate themselves and speak up and be a resource, whether it's serving on their club's board or simply being a point of contact. Take it upon yourselves to educate people in your club and our coaches, or to serve as a reference when someone has a question. Don't wait around for the USFS or PSA to do it for you. You'll probably be waiting a looong time.

Hear, hear, RachelSk8er!!! Let's nip learned helplessness in the butt, er, bud! I was just voted in as our club president (yes, I'm mad for glory and power) and I'm going to make commmunication my first priority. I'm flabbergasted about how little my fellow club members know about USFS, ISI, and, ahem, skating.

Skate@Delaware
04-28-2010, 01:51 PM
That's going to be very confusing. Most test chairs are skating parents that know nothing about adult skating. I understand the rationale as you explained it, but I see the potential for problems - skaters getting confused and signing up for the wrong test, test chairs getting confused when registering or entering results, etc. Couldn't the problem be solved by specifically requiring standard track MIF tests for collegiates and high-level synchro?
For our upcoming test sessions, the ADULT levels were omitted from the forms....I had to remind the test chair that I was going to test and that YES, there ARE test levels for adults. :roll: and the next form that came out omitted pre-bronze completely (so I'm writing it in)...sheesh!
Adult skaters at various clubs also need to educate themselves and speak up and be a resource, whether it's serving on their club's board or simply being a point of contact. Coaches who don't really work with adults aren't going to just know the rules for adult skating, although the hope is that they will familiarize themselves with them if and when they do coach an adult. (That's like expecting someone who doesn't coach synchro to know the rules for synchro...they don't. There is no reason to.) Board members who are the typical parent of a kid who skates, at a club with very few or no adult skaters, won't really know that either. So as an adult skater, know the rules or know where to find them or who to point people to. Take it upon yourselves to educate people in your club and our coaches, or to serve as a reference when someone has a question. Don't wait around for the USFS or PSA to do it for you. You'll probably be waiting a looong time.
I give my club board resources for adult skating, competing, competitions, etc. and they throw it away. They have no interest in attracting more adult skaters or drawing in more to the competitive ranks. You either do LTS or shows. Period. It's frustrating.
Hear, hear, RachelSk8er!!! Let's nip learned helplessness in the butt, er, bud! I was just voted in as our club president (yes, I'm mad for glory and power) and I'm going to make communication my first priority. I'm flabbergasted about how little my fellow club members know about USFS, ISI, and, ahem, skating.
Even when you have a rink that is registered and teaches through the ISI skills structure, and the girls compete USFS....they don't know anything. At our club meeting the other night they were discussing restrictions for freestyle sessions being Gamma and higher, the parents were "what's gamma?"

8O ok. There is a chart on the bulletin board with the skills structure. And it's on the form they fill out when they join the club (the one with the rules you read, and sign).

I think there is a level of apathy amongst the parents/coaches/skaters. They just don't care unless they are made to and it concerns them.

Skittl1321
04-28-2010, 02:00 PM
The problem with relying on adult skaters to educate themselves is "you don't know what you don't know."

90% of what I know about adult skating started here on this board, and then I went to look for further information. 95% of what my coach knows came from me.

Stormy
04-28-2010, 02:23 PM
The problem with relying on adult skaters to educate themselves is "you don't know what you don't know."

90% of what I know about adult skating started here on this board, and then I went to look for further information. 95% of what my coach knows came from me.

As much as I dislike the redesign of the USFS website, I like that the the adult page is the first listing under programs (by virtue of alphabetizing, but still). It doesn't have a ton of information on it, but it's a good resource for a beginning adult skater looking for the basics. Plus, if you google "adult figure skating", that's the first page that comes up. And, I just realized, the page has a nice photo of my coach from when she won in 2007.

If you don't know what you don't know, Google is your friend. And I'm not saying that to you, Jessi, just in general. The basic information is out there, what else do we have to do to get adult skaters to start educating themselves?

Stormy
04-28-2010, 02:26 PM
OK, I'm sorry, but if people don't bother to read something simple, like an applicable age, that is printed on a test form when their job is being the test chair, that's a bigger issue than a rule being confusing. I don't know how you could make that any more clear. And again, an adult skater should be responsible and know what they are signing up for and make sure it is correct when they get there for their test. Which brings me to my next point...

And if something like the fact test chairs or a skater *might* get confused over this rule would be a possible deterrant from people voting yes to it, I'd be royally annoyed. It's not that hard to figure out. If you're a test chair, it's up to you to know the tests and the structure, period.

Debbie S
04-28-2010, 02:33 PM
OK, I'm sorry, but if people don't bother to read something simple, like an applicable age, that is printed on a test form when their job is being the test chair, that's a bigger issue than a rule being confusing. I don't know how you could make that any more clear. And again, an adult skater should be responsible and know what they are signing up for and make sure it is correct when they get there for their test. I'm not sure what test forms you're referring to, but if you're talking about the forms used by the judges to write down marks and comments, there are no age rules anywhere on the adult test forms. If you're talking about the test application, that is the responsibility of the test chair to create, and if the test chair doesn't know.... There is a guide for test chairs somewhere in the twisted maze that is the USFSA website (which hopefully will incorporate the new rules ASAP), but my test chair didn't know it existed until I mentioned something to her about it - she couldn't find it when she searched so she called the previous president (now off the board but still helps out) who sent her the link she had in her records. (and test chairs may not know to download a new copy, b/c they may not know the rules changed....)

For our upcoming test sessions, the ADULT levels were omitted from the forms....I had to remind the test chair that I was going to test and that YES, there ARE test levels for adults. :roll: and the next form that came out omitted pre-bronze completely (so I'm writing it in)...sheesh!I once e-mailed a test chair (not my club but another in the area) a scheduling request for my test, mentioned my test name, and the woman (who is very nice and supportive of adult skaters) e-mailed me back to ask "What's Silver MIF?" Now, this was her first time as test chair, but the name IS printed on the test form - presumably she knows what MIF stands for (how many MIF tests has she signed her daughter up for?) and knows I'm an adult. I explained it to her and she thanked me and said she was going to go read the test guide to familiarize herself with all of the tests. At least she was trying....

(Good luck on your test, S@D!)

The problem with relying on adult skaters to educate themselves is "you don't know what you don't know."Exactly. And that applies to test chairs and other club board members. My club has an e-mail newsletter and we just set up a Facebook page, so we can use those vehicles for communicating GC changes, but not every club has or wants to do that (I know they should, but shoulda, coulda, woulda....). And sometimes it's an issue of time - test chairs and other club officers are volunteers, with families, jobs, etc., and skating rule changes are not their priority - they just depend on their kid's coach to tell them what they need to know.

Skittl1321
04-28-2010, 02:34 PM
If you don't know what you don't know, Google is your friend. And I'm not saying that to you, Jessi, just in general. The basic information is out there, what else do we have to do to get adult skaters to start educating themselves?

Not everyone is comfortable, or has access to, the internet. I'd say by virtue of the expense of the sport we can consider that all skaters have the money to have access to the internet, but it doesn't mean they are good at it. This board is obviously not a representative sample of "could you find this information" because clearly, we are all pretty comfortable with the internet to have found and become active on this forum. If I know I don't know something, I can find it out (for example: what moves are on the silver test? I looked it up and told my coach). But if I wasn't on this board- and my club didn't know about these changes, how would I know to go look for them?

Skate@Delaware
04-28-2010, 02:58 PM
Not everyone is comfortable, or has access to, the internet. I'd say by virtue of the expense of the sport we can consider that all skaters have the money to have access to the internet, but it doesn't mean they are good at it. This board is obviously not a representative sample of "could you find this information" because clearly, we are all pretty comfortable with the internet to have found and become active on this forum. If I know I don't know something, I can find it out (for example: what moves are on the silver test? I looked it up and told my coach). But if I wasn't on this board- and my club didn't know about these changes, how would I know to go look for them?
Not everyone knows how to separate good info from bad info over the internet. Sometimes you find outdated postings/rules and if you go by that you can get into serious trouble. I recommend to parents that they spend the few extra bucks and get a current rule book so they can stay up to speed, and make sure their coach has one as well (our rink learned this the hard way, when a coach was teaching with one several years out of date-required elements for programs were omitted at a competition).

I try to keep folks informed about adult skating (recreational and competitive), but not be pushy about it. Like I said, the adult skating group at my rink is small-myself plus 3 other ladies but it's slowly growing (2 in LTS). My coach is well-informed (and she competes, synchro).

Its nice to have a council that listens.

RachelSk8er
04-28-2010, 03:12 PM
Not everyone knows how to separate good info from bad info over the internet. Sometimes you find outdated postings/rules and if you go by that you can get into serious trouble. I recommend to parents that they spend the few extra bucks and get a current rule book so they can stay up to speed, and make sure their coach has one as well (our rink learned this the hard way, when a coach was teaching with one several years out of date-required elements for programs were omitted at a competition).


Here's the thing. Skating is expensive. If I'm going to invest that much money and what little free time I have into something that is purely a hobby/obsession at this point, I'm going to seek out the rules and at least know the appropriate people to contact if I have a question. That's called being responsible. And if I'm paying someone to be my coach, and they refuse to learn the rules that apply to me, guess what? I'm finding a different coach.

I learned this lesson the hard way, I failed my prelim freestyle test when I was 11 because my coach put me on the ice with the wrong jumps in my program--did the competition version, not a watered down test version. Failed because I had an axel toe, not a waltz toe...yes, I actually had an axel back in those days. One of the judges gave ME a long lecture on making sure my program followed the rules. Not my coach. So I got a rulebook and vowed to never let something like that happen again and to become a check on what my coach knew (because we're all human and make mistakes). And I was 11...if an 11 year old can do it, surely an adult can teach themselves a basic understanding of the rules, too.

RULEBOOK=ONLINE, ON USFS WEB SITE, FOR FREE NOWADAYS!!!! So is all the contact info for all the members of the adult skating committee who are (or should be) more than willing to help point someone in the right direction. If you know how to find the USFS web site, I don't think there are really any excuses. I started skating in the 80s before Al Gore invented the internet, and Skating magazine was a piece of crap that no one really bothered to look at, and we managed to find things just fine back then.

drskater
04-28-2010, 03:18 PM
Yes, in the final analysis, if a coach is prepping skaters to test --ANY skater and ANY test--he or she must remained informed and current. I think a lot of people trust their coaches to know these things. If a coach is aggressively clueless or doesn't seem interested in finding out info for adults, then it may be time to find a different coach. I say this from personal experience. My old coach couldn't/wouldn't teach me the waltz 8 for the PB test (nor the three-turn pattern -- he literally couldn't figure it out from the diagram).

Trying to educate people is an old gripe of mine (no wonder; I've been teaching college for a million years). Really, you can tell people info, write it down for them, email it to them, make posters, snail mail them, facebook them, and etc. and some folks still won't get it. At that point, forget them (or, as I do, worry about the future of civilzation...ha!).

pairman2
04-28-2010, 04:51 PM
The clueless coach will hopefully be a thing of the past in the not too distant future. PSA now requires Continuing Education Requirements (CER) that cover such basics as familiarity with the rule book. It wasn't too long ago that that a coach just signed up, paid the dues and that was it.

For less then the price of a lesson, everyone can have a rulebook sitting next to their computer or else book mark the online version. I like paper version so it's well worth the investment. Coaches now receive it as part of their USFS Coach registration process and fee. So it's just up to them to read it.

jazzpants
04-28-2010, 07:26 PM
I told my coach about the MIF standard when I found out about the proposal, and his response was "too bad, you've come all this way and have 2 tests left, you're still doing the standard passing mark." We'll see about that....:halo:
LMAO!!! :P

This is another problem. Maybe some of those on here who are judges could chime in, but my understanding is that there are no guidelines for judges on what adult standard means. And when they changed the focus of the "power" moves a few years ago to "continuous flow and strenth", I don't believe there were ever guidelines issued about that. I heard a coach say once that she asked a judge at a PSA seminar about judging of adult tests and the judge said they went with "whatever the rulebook says" - but does the rulebook say anything about the judging of adult tests? I've never seen anything, other than the bit about "candidates are expected to...." that is on the test sheet. I've heard of one judge saying she holds adults to the same standard as the kids, b/c there is only one standard.

There is a lot of inconsistency. I'm sure there are inconsistencies on the standard track, too - judging is subjective, after all - but it seems worse for adult tests. I think this (judge education/training) is something that the Adult Committee really needs to take on and speak up about.
Yup! I also wonder about that. From my test experience (and at least two failed Bronze Moves test), it's hard AS IS to judge a moves element based on the adult test track. I've aimed my training more towards doing the moves as if I was doing them on the standard track test. I think the multiple track for the standard moves test would make it even more confusing if you ask me!!! 8O

The clueless coach will hopefully be a thing of the past in the not too distant future.There will always be clueless coaches, unfortunately! :roll: (And BTW: I've heard of coaches (not at MY rink, of course... ;) ) who don't bother reading up about the WBP requirements when they choreograph their Adult student skater in competition. The unfortunate skater gets marked down and wonders why their excellent skate got dinged if their mistakes are not caught in time (say at a skating critique before the competition.) 8O

Skate@Delaware
04-28-2010, 08:39 PM
I'm really really REALLY lucky to have my coach! Not only does she stay current, she competes so she sees things from both sides of the fence. As far as testing to an 'adult' standard, she wants me to push it hard. She went to a few test sessions and watched the adults testing, so she knows what passes and what doesn't.

RachelSk8er, that is EXACTLY what happened to our girls about 6 years ago. The coach (who was also skating director, now long gone) didn't stay up to date. About 8 girls didn't even place in the competition. Girls were upset, parents were TICKED!!! She was embarrassed. The following season, she had a new book. Really no reason for this to happen.

techskater
04-28-2010, 09:05 PM
The question came up about what the voting records next to the RFAs means - it means that that was the record of the specific committee to get it on the docket for GC. FWIW, we discussed a few items last night at our board meeting and opinion was requested for our club's vote

icerinque
04-28-2010, 10:47 PM
Hi All,

I hope I can answer some of your questions . . .

GC has NOT yet begun, so it is incorrect that anything has passed. The vote numbers you see on the RFAs are the yea/nay votes from applicable committees that voted to send them to the USFS board of directors prior to GC. The board then votes on them, THEN it goes into a general vote from all attending delegates and their proxies.

MIF - the adult & masters passing averages are NOT a new track of testing. This will be the SAME set of tests, but at a lower passing average. You must declare that you want to take the test at the lower average or you will be tested at the standard passing average.

There is no discussion at this time about changing anything else in the adult tests, such as making the entire standard track available at a lower passing average. The adult tests are not going away.

MIF - the age variance for the adult passing average to begin at 25 instead of 21 is to prevent the unintended consequences of younger skaters taking these tests at a lower passing average when they are capable of taking the standard passing average.

The adult skating pages on the USFS site - please offer suggestions if what you would like to see is not there! ON this page: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=112 there is a link directly to the rule book. Every skater should be familiar with the rules that apply to their skating.

Also, the adult skating pages now have their own photo montage banner at the top!

Stay tuned for GC news!

~ Lexi

vesperholly
04-29-2010, 01:27 AM
I would really like to see the RFAs presented in a "summary" format for clubs. The language of much of the rulebook is so dry it could rival the Sahara. I know the official language often has to be written the way it is, but I think it could be easily summed up for people who don't necessarily need all the gory details. people who need the details will find them. but for the purposes of most of the membership, give them some simplified language. and maybe prepare separate info packages for test chairs, adults, coaches, etc.?

Pandora
04-29-2010, 07:20 AM
Was wondering.....:??

Right now it looks as if the adult MITF testing track only goes up through Gold, then the skater would have to go back to the beginning and do the standard tract all the way through in order to take Intermediate MITF (and, subsequently, the Intermediate FS which would qualify a skater to skate Championship Masters.) Right? Are they adding an Adult Masters MITF, or is that still the case? If you want to skate beyond Gold, you must go back and take all the standard MITF, albeit at the lower passing average?

Stormy
04-29-2010, 07:48 AM
Was wondering.....:??

Right now it looks as if the adult MITF testing track only goes up through Gold, then the skater would have to go back to the beginning and do the standard tract all the way through in order to take Intermediate MITF (and, subsequently, the Intermediate FS which would qualify a skater to skate Championship Masters.) Right? Are they adding an Adult Masters MITF, or is that still the case? If you want to skate beyond Gold, you must go back and take all the standard MITF, albeit at the lower passing average?

No, once you pass your adult gold moves, you do NOT have to go back to the beginning of the standard track. You go right to Intermediate. I suppose you could take all the standard track from the beginning if you wanted to. Also, just because you take the MIF tests, does not mean you MUST take the corresponding freestyle test. You don't ever have to take freestyle tests at all if you don't want to. It's possible to have passed all your moves tests but have no freestyle tests.

To your second question, what they are proposing is not adding a "Masters MIF", and again, no, you will not have to go back to the beginning if you want to skate beyond Gold. No matter what, if you pass your Gold moves, you never have to go back to the beginning of the standard track, you keep going right in to Intermediate. What is being proposed is a lower Adult and Masters passing average for the Intermediate, Novice, Junior and Senior MIF tests. Both Adult (ages 21-49) and Masters (ages 50+) will have a slightly lower passing average than the corresponding standard track MIF tests. This is supposed to help encourage adults to keep testing after passing Gold moves. Also proposed is a lower Masters (ages 50+) passing average for the Bronze through Gold MIF tests. Hope that helps?

Pandora
04-29-2010, 07:54 AM
Oh..... so that's what's ment by TR 19.02 B. Thanks Stormy. :)

RachelSk8er
04-29-2010, 07:59 AM
No, once you pass your adult gold moves, you do NOT have to go back to the beginning of the standard track. You go right to Intermediate. I suppose you could take all the standard track from the beginning if you wanted to. Also, just because you take the MIF tests, does not mean you MUST take the corresponding freestyle test. You don't ever have to take freestyle tests at all if you don't want to. It's possible to have passed all your moves tests but have no freestyle tests.

To your second question, what they are proposing is not adding a "Masters MIF", and again, no, you will not have to go back to the beginning if you want to skate beyond Gold. No matter what, if you pass your Gold moves, you never have to go back to the beginning of the standard track, you keep going right in to Intermediate. What is being proposed is a lower Adult and Masters passing average for the Intermediate, Novice, Junior and Senior MIF tests. Both Adult (ages 21-49) and Masters (ages 50+) will have a slightly lower passing average than the corresponding standard track MIF tests. This is supposed to help encourage adults to keep testing after passing Gold moves. Also proposed is a lower Masters (ages 50+) passing average for the Bronze through Gold MIF tests. Hope that helps?


To further clarify...here, with reference to the addition of adult and masters passing averages for the intermediate-senior MIF tests,

MASTERS IS WITH REGARD TO AGE.

AGE 50+ gives you the option of a masters passing average, which is lower than even the adult (age 25+) passing average.

Again, these are 100% optional. A 54 year old could take senior MIF on the standard track if she wanted to. Just because someone is 25+ does not require them to take the test at an adult standard, and 50+ does not require a masters standard. We all know that there are certain 50+ skaters out there (ahem, Cindy Crouse) who could run circles around us 20-somethings.

The terminology that we have in adult skating tends to lead to so much of the confusion (i.e. masters...does that mean high test level, or high age? Or both?). It's been bugging me for a few years now. Next year when my school schedule is less hectic, I'd really like to work on proposing some re-wording to help fix that and make things more consistent across the board, if anyone is interested in working with me on it or has any ideas of how to approach it.

Right now the easy way to keep it all straight is just to remember that at adult competitions (excluding synchro), masters=high test level. Testing, masters=age, and has nothing to do with what test level a skater is on. Synchro masters also=age (overall individual ability and level of skating on and adult team is higher than on a masters team).

Debbie S
04-29-2010, 09:12 AM
MIF - the adult & masters passing averages are NOT a new track of testing. This will be the SAME set of tests, but at a lower passing average. You must declare that you want to take the test at the lower average or you will be tested at the standard passing average.So if the "Adult" option is not a testing track, does that mean that a skater could go back and forth from test to test, i.e. take Novice with the adult standard and then Junior with the kid standard? It seems to me that it makes more sense to structure it like dance testing, where if you pass a test at the adult standard, the rest of your tests need to be done at adult standard unless you go back and re-pass your earlier tests at the kid standard.

Looking through the RFAs again, I noticed that there is also a proposal to eliminate the ISI test disqualification rules. I realize it's difficult to enforce, but it seems unfair to me - if adult skaters tested ISI as kids, why should they get a free pass to the level of their choosing while those who tested USFSA are subject to qual/disqual rules? I think it could lead to problems - I've already seen adult ISI skaters compete in USFSA club comps at a level obviously lower than where they should be - I imagine their thinking is since they haven't tested USFSA, they're fine to skate at Pre-Bronze.

It seems to me that if the goal is to make it easier for ISI skaters to compete in USFSA adult comps, then adopt the same rules that now apply to standard track testing where ISI tests can qualify a skater for a certain level while disqualifying them for lower levels.

Pandora
04-29-2010, 09:17 AM
Debbie I definitely agree with you!!!:D But I can answer why the USFS would never allow it.

There is no MITF in ISI testing so to speak. (It was only a footwork sequence in the Freestyle Test). So someone like me (who was good at elements but weak in moves) could "sneak" past the MITF requirements by using ISI tests. (Although, personally, I love this idea).....That is why they will never allow it. :cry:

Also, the USFS would loose $ because many skaters would choose to take the ISI tests instead.

Skittl1321
04-29-2010, 09:22 AM
Pandora- I think that Debbie is talking about REMOVING something that already exists.

Right now, if you have an ISI test you must compete at a minimum level based on that test. (I'm too lazy to look up what they are. But let's say you have ISI 10 and the rulebook says that means you can skate no lower than Master's Junior/Senior). So that ISI test disqualifies you from skating any lower than that level- it doesn't QUALIFY you to skate in that level. You would still need to take the appropriate tests to get into the level.

What Debbie is saying is that requirement has been removed. (proposed to be removed) So someone who passed ISI 10, but had no USFS tests could, theoretically, take the adult prebronze mitf and freeskate and then skate in that level and kick all our butts, because they can do axels in both directions.

(Oh wait- you were right. Debbie herself is proposing that ISI qualifies you for the level, so you do get by the MITF requirement.)

Pandora
04-29-2010, 09:29 AM
Yup, it's in the last sentence. Mind you, I like it!! .....But it will never happen.:cry:

An interesting aside. I did find one event that will let high level ISI compete with the USFS: The Empire State Games held every year in NY state (not sure about other state games.) http://www.empirestategames.org/winter/appinfofigure2010.htm I don't think I could get by on Platinum Test, though. I'd have to test ISI 7 which is actually a hard test due to some strange jumps (reverse direction loop or flip or lutz, one foot axel-half flip-axel combo, and 2 walleys in a row). Nasty stuff to do correctly. And there is no adult catagory, so I'd be forced to skate against standard intermediate....and would loose BADLY.:lol:

Too bad there are no "adult" events included in the state games. It only seems to be standard levels.

It would be nice if the USFS would let the ISI skate a few local non-qualifying adult events with them. It might mean more $ and contestants.

Debbie S
04-29-2010, 10:23 AM
What Debbie is saying is that requirement has been removed. (proposed to be removed) So someone who passed ISI 10, but had no USFS tests could, theoretically, take the adult prebronze mitf and freeskate and then skate in that level and kick all our butts, because they can do axels in both directions.Yes, that's right, but I forgot about the MIF issue (you'd think after all this discussion about MIF it would be fresh in my mind, lol). I do see why it would not be right to have direct qualification using ISI tests, but that being said, I still think there should be a disqualification rule. The rationale for the change says it's to encourage more participation in adult comps by ISI skaters, but if ISI skaters have to take USFSA tests anyway to (theoretically) skate their level, then they have to go through the same process they do now, so it really won't get any easier, unless ISI skaters take fewer tests than they might currently have to and end up skating below their level, which I don't think would add value to adult skating.

Skittl1321
04-29-2010, 10:34 AM
Too bad there are no "adult" events included in the state games. It only seems to be standard levels.

It would be nice if the USFS would let the ISI skate a few local non-qualifying adult events with them. It might mean more $ and contestants.

Local events are a local issue. Our state games have adult events. It also seems like a non-qualifying competition could set it's own standards and allow ISI or USFS. I've seen ISI competitions that have USFS sanctions (so those skaters can participate). It seems like a local thing, but if you are a USFS club- I don't know what your motivation is to not encourage USFS testing.

I don't know why USFS should let ISI skaters skate without having taken the appropriate tests. ISI requires USFS skaters to take their tests to be eligible for competition (though they've recently added the "Open Freestyle" levels, so if you have USFS tests you at least don't have to do the lower level tests, just the appropriate Open Freestyle test. But if you have your USFS Bronze test, you can't compete lower than Freestyle 3, and that means you first have to register pre-alpha through Freestyle 3 tests to do it.)

Pandora
04-29-2010, 10:44 AM
Oh wow!! Cool!! Thanks skittl. :D:D:D I didn't know this ever happened. I will check out the local competitions in the future. :D

Double checked our state games site. Nope. Looks like only standard level. :( (Hope someone tells me I'm wrong about this and there is an adult catagory. That would be awesome!) ;)

Well....as for skating together ....just figured the more the merrier.....It's for fun, right? Maybe even bring in a few more competitors and $. :D

Isk8NYC
04-29-2010, 10:47 AM
Every State Games sets their own event agenda. NY State has never offered a wide variety of test/age categories, IIRC.
There are so many skaters in NYS that the organizers try to keep the entries low and they target the higher-level skaters. The lowest skating level is ISI FS5 and USFSA Juvenile. Older skaters (over 18) can enter the "Open" categories.
http://www.empirestategames.org/winter/appinfofigure2010.htm

By comparison, North Carolina offers the same events you would see at a USFSA Basic Skills/Open competition. Adults 19 and older can choose to skate with their age peers (19+) or against the younger skaters.
http://www.ncsports.org/pdfs/FIGURE_SKATINGreg.pdf


Looking through the RFAs again, I noticed that there is also a proposal to eliminate the ISI test disqualification rules. I realize it's difficult to enforce, but it seems unfair to me - if adult skaters tested ISI as kids, why should they get a free pass to the level of their choosing while those who tested USFSA are subject to qual/disqual rules? I think it could lead to problems - I've already seen adult ISI skaters compete in USFSA club comps at a level obviously lower than where they should be - I imagine their thinking is since they haven't tested USFSA, they're fine to skate at Pre-Bronze.I have mixed feelings about setting a crossover limit, as a former ISI FS5/6 skater. Since we didn't have MITF, just footwork sequences, we don't have the beautiful edges, turns and transitions that USFSA skaters have, so we start off at a disadvantage in competitions. It really is worth it for ISI skaters to take Moves tests to fill in those gaps (if they have them) in their skating repertoires.

I do think (and I hate to say it) that it's time for the ISI and the USFSA to become one system in the US. The ISI has already taken these steps by combining their Freestyle test levels for competitions. Skating is so expensive that very few skaters do both programs. The ISI does some things really well: their national conference is excellent, their sportsmanship/inclusiveness efforts work well, they keep people active and involved in skating for all ages/levels/interests. The USFSA has been eating the ISI's lunch since Basic Skills was launched, but they still didn't get the increase in formal testing that they had hoped for because skaters are staying in Basic Skills instead of transitioning to standard/adult testing.

As an aside, while the ISI's test requirements of jumping in both directions always seems whacky, I've noticed a lot of elite International-level skaters with those skills in their programs during this past season. Gotta get those points somehow, and the ISI was ahead of its time.

The PSA brokered a agreement to work together in anticipation of future combinations, and I think that was a smart move on Jimmy Santee's part.

If skating could merge the ISI and USFSA, Figure Skating would be better off as a whole in the USA. It would be more effective, fun and organized, not to mention less expensive.

As to your question, Debbie's right: as an ISI FS5/6 skater, I "belong" in the Adult Silver freeskate group. I can't compete fairly until I've taken the USFSA tests to reach that point. The ISI does allow skaters who've lost skills to "step down" in their test level which keeps them able to participate as they age. While my ISI test level qualifies me for Silver, it doesn't mean I can still skate at that level... *snicker* I remember how to do an axel and a double loop, but you won't see me attempting either unless my new skates make a dramatic difference in my skating. (Everyone pray for Don Klingbeil to make some magic! lol)

Pandora
04-29-2010, 10:54 AM
Wow! This is the first I've heard of this!! 8O

Isk8NYC, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but generally speaking, if there were a merge, then it would be best to test as far as possible in ISI because there is usually a "grandfather" clause in such cases wherein the changes (test rules etc. would take effect after the date of a merge, but not effect those who passed tests before the date of the change.) Is that generally correct? :??

sk8er1964
04-29-2010, 11:05 AM
I'm not sure about getting rid of the ISI requirement. At least it told you where you should be. Without it, when I came back knowing nothing about adult skating and with a coach who didn't either, I probably would have competed AN the first time as Bronze since all I had passed as a kid in USFS was preliminary. That would have been wrong, wrong, wrong! Although I would have liked to have had the option to skate at silver (I was FS 6) that first year.

I do like the petitioning down part of ISI. For those of us who skated as a kid but had many years off, for some people those skills can be long gone.

Stormy
04-29-2010, 11:09 AM
If skating could merge the ISI and USFSA, Figure Skating would be better off as a whole in the USA. It would be more effective, fun and organized, not to mention less expensive.


I'm not a big fan of ISI in general, but that's JMHO. Since ISI is worldwide, I don't see how you could possibly merge the two, though? They're pretty different in structure and testing. ISI is more "for fun" in general, where USFS is more "competitive", IIRC. It's an interesting idea, and I'd be interested to see a plan on how to accomplish it (that's not directed at you Isk8, more just thinking out loud).

Isk8NYC
04-29-2010, 11:14 AM
Wow! This is the first I've heard of this!! 8O

Isk8NYC, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but generally speaking, if there were a merge, then it would be best to test as far as possible in ISI because there is usually a "grandfather" clause in such cases wherein the changes (test rules etc. would take effect after the date of a merge, but not effect those who passed tests before the date of the change.) Is that generally correct? :??
I don't think the USFSA would "grandfather" ISI freestyle tests to bypass MITF. Just mho. There's really no equivalent in the ISI for the MITF tests. I would expect to take the MITF tests from Pre-Preliminary or Pre-Bronze. They *might* be inclined to allow a skip in Freeskate levels, saying that an ISI FS5 skater needed to pass Pre-Juv/Adult Silver before being allowed to compete at those levels int he competition, but maybe not the prerequisite freeskate tests. I doubt it though.

If they made an exception for the ISI, they'd have to do it for skaters who tested in other countries under different systems. I think the USFSA wouldn't want to set such a precedent.

If I were you, I'd pursue the USFSA MITF tests AND the ISI Freestyle tests.

Pandora
04-29-2010, 11:26 AM
Oh....That's what I was afraid of. :cry:

Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully, this is only just a rumor right now....I will try to find out more through the ISI site/forums etc.

Isk8NYC
04-29-2010, 11:44 AM
Since ISI is worldwide, I don't see how you could possibly merge the two, though? They're pretty different in structure and testing. ISI is more "for fun" in general, where USFS is more "competitive", IIRC. It's an interesting idea, and I'd be interested to see a plan on how to accomplish it (that's not directed at you Isk8, more just thinking out loud).

Oh, but I have a white paper on this already written so I will continue my thread drift, sorry. If anyone's annoyed, let me know and I'll split the thread.

The ISI's inclusion, fun and sportsmanship really belongs in figure skating, it's what keeps people on the ice for life. That's only seen that attitude at Basic Skills competitions and even then, it's not the same "Let's have a good time" that I experienced as an ISI skater. Every area varies and there are always nutjobs taking things too seriously, but ISI comps were a great experience and that's another reason why I no longer compete: I had a great competition experience as an ISI skater. I try to bring that attitude to my students' experience as well. I keep them away from the princesses wearing $250 dresses in Basic 4, make them congratulate the winner and be a gracious winner themselves. I don't feel the need to get involved as a skater with the USFSA competitions. Been there, done that, and had a better time than what I've seen at adult competitions.

There are a lot of equivalents in the two programs when you compare the test elements, so it wouldn't be very difficult to transition those skaters. ISI Alpha-Gamma fit into the lower-level Basic levels. Freestyle 1-4 match up somewhat with the higher-level Basics and existing Freeskate levels.

I could easily see ISI Freestyle 5 being incorporated into the existing USFSA Freeskate 5-6 level. Just add the MITF elements and you're back in synch. It's at ISI Freestyle 6 where the two LTS programs start to go in different directions. The USFSA wants the skaters to move onto formal testing, the ISI keeps recreational skaters going by challenging them with wacky opposite-direction jumps, etc. To compromise, make the ISI FS6-10 levels an extension of the existing USFSA Freeskate levels.

Given the daunting idea of doing an axel in the opposite direction, most skaters will jump at the chance to do standard-track testing, lol. Voila!

As for standard- and adult-track tests tying into the ISI levels, I really doubt that there can be an clean crossover or grandfathering because of the MITF tests.

MITF have to (imo) be taken before a skater can take the USFSA equivalent freeskate test. Even if the USFSA were to say "Oh, an ISI FS5 skater only has to take the USFSA Pre-Juvenile/Adult Silver" it should be BOTH MITF and Freeskate. There's a huge gap in skating skills if you only take ISI Freestyle tests. I think an ISI-only skater would really struggle with the Pre-Juv MITF test; they'd have to master those lower-level tests' skill to pass that test anyway. If they don't want to take those tests, they stay in Basic Skills.

It does mean less test revenue for the USFSA in the long run, but it should be considered part of the costs of incorporating tons of new skaters into the program, which will offset the lost opportunity of getting ISI skaters to take the prerequisite tests.


I suspect that the ISI is losing ground in Asia as more countries focus on Korea's success at the Olympics. ISI Worlds has been in the US for several years in a row, perhaps that's an exchange-rate thing, but I'm not sure if there is as much demand for ISI competitions overseas. I think that the ISI will remain for a while as a LTS program, but many countries in ISI Asia have been reevaluating their programs in anticipation of gaining ISU membership. Maybe our Singapore members can speak better to that situation.

Isk8NYC
04-29-2010, 12:14 PM
GC blogger: http://governingcouncil2010.blogspot.com/

Also on Twitter: http://twitter.com/meharty

(Very pirate-y ID, lol. "Aye, me hearty!")

blue111moon
04-29-2010, 12:14 PM
Keep in mind too that the two programs have very different goals. ISI was created by rink owners to get and keep bodies on their ice. Since the majority of recreational skaters are at the bottom levels, that's where ISI concentrates their efforts - it's fairly easy to move through the first half of their test system which doesn't start to get difficult until FS5.

On the other hand, USFS is designed to create champions. It's competitive right from the start and the emphasis on technical performance. In general (and this is a broad generalization, I know, but based on almost 30 years of belonging to both organizations and uncountable hours spent at innumerable competitions of both types), ISI produces more skaters in any given year, but the skaters prioduced by USFS tend to be better skaters. I have several theories why, none of which are relevent to this discussion.

Anyway, a merger of the two systemsis unlikely and most probably doomed to failure if it ever did happen, simply becuase of the two fundamentally different philospies and missions. It is possible for both groups to exist peaceably, but I honestly don't see how the proposed RFA facilitates that.

Pandora
04-29-2010, 12:20 PM
Um...what's a RFA?

And NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO Merge!!!!!! :frus::frus::frus::cry::cry::cry:

TreSk8sAZ
04-29-2010, 12:25 PM
Um...what's a RFA?

And NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO Merge!!!!!! :frus::frus::frus::cry::cry::cry:

Request for Action submitted to the Governing Council (hence the title of the thread)

Isk8NYC
04-29-2010, 12:26 PM
I'm well aware of the different focus, but the USFSA only started Basic Skills because the ISI program presented a threat to their inflow of skaters. Skaters and their parents were happy staying with ISI for years instead of moving onto USFSA standard-track tests.

That's why the USFSA's Basic Skills program is designed to move skaters in and up more easily through the levels. Their intent was to provide a LTS package that fed into the existing test structure.

Note that most Basic Skills programs are owned and operated by the RINKS, not the skating clubs, following the ISI model that was initially so successful. This gives the rinks a vested interest in figure skating: they want to keep the program growing so their revenue stream continues. If the skater moves up to USFSA standard testing/competitions, the rink needs to provide ice time for those skaters, still another source of revenue.

The USFSA really has tried to incorporate the ISI "feel" into the Basic Skills program, which is why I think the two programs can co-exist at that level. More often than not, the figure skating director at a rink is a former USFSA skater, which really does make them biased against ISI. If you were to merge the two programs, they'd embrace it to some extent, but communicating that "let's have fun" attitude would be the challenge, I admit that. Former standard-track skaters are more focused on developing champions and they may not be savvy enough to really grasp what inclusion can bring to the profit margin.

I've been to several coaches seminars where they discussed having both programs in the same facility, so groundwork has been underway for a number of years. There's definitely some movement to common ground, so I wouldn't discount a merger too quickly.

Isk8NYC
04-29-2010, 12:28 PM
Anyway, a merger of the two systemsis unlikely and most probably doomed to failure if it ever did happen, simply becuase of the two fundamentally different philospies and missions. It is possible for both groups to exist peaceably, but I honestly don't see how the proposed RFA facilitates that.

The RFA doesn't call for that, Debbie brought up ISI:USFSA crossovers, which led me down my tangental path, lol.
Sorry, sorry.

ETA: In browsing the GC2010 blog, it seems that there's a seminar on "Attracting and Retaining Members." This could be quite relevant to this discussion.

vesperholly
04-29-2010, 05:55 PM
So if the "Adult" option is not a testing track, does that mean that a skater could go back and forth from test to test, i.e. take Novice with the adult standard and then Junior with the kid standard? It seems to me that it makes more sense to structure it like dance testing, where if you pass a test at the adult standard, the rest of your tests need to be done at adult standard unless you go back and re-pass your earlier tests at the kid standard.

I didn't see this one answered, probably because everyone's flying to GC (jealous!!!). It is structured just like the dance tests - I'm sure that's where the idea came from. No, you cannot go back and forth from adult to standard. Once you go adult, you never go back! lol :)

Skittl1321
04-29-2010, 06:33 PM
Once you go adult, you never go back! lol :)

Just to clarify- you could though, right? You'd just have to retake any that you passed as an adult at standard track. You can't flip-flop.

vesperholly
04-29-2010, 07:18 PM
Just to clarify- you could though, right? You'd just have to retake any that you passed as an adult at standard track. You can't flip-flop.

Yes.

(my message is too short. I am lengthening it. :P)

rlichtefeld
04-30-2010, 06:41 AM
Just to clarify- you could though, right? You'd just have to retake any that you passed as an adult at standard track. You can't flip-flop.

Just to make sure everyone is following this. If you are over 21 and have not taken any MIF tests, then it would make sense to start with the Pre-Bronze MIF test, since that is what is needed to for the corresponding adult freeskate tests.

But, there is nothing stopping you from taking the Pre-Preliminary MIF test. And, if you do start with the standard track tests, while you were under 21, you can switch over to the adult track using the chart in the rulebook.

However, lets say you pass up through the Adult Silver MIF test, you cannot switch over to taking the standard track tests, without starting over. Except at one point. If you have passed the Adult Gold MIF test, you can then start taking the standard track tests at Intermediate.

Now the new RFA says, that adults over 21 taking the standard track MIF tests, can request that they be taken at a lower passing average. However, they have to ask at each test. The adult skaters needs to the let the test chair for that test know that is what they are wanting.

So, an adult could pass their Adult Gold MIF and then take the Intermediate MIF test at either the normal passing average or at the lower adult passing average. If they then chose to test at Novice, at that time they could choose to pass at the normal average or the lower adult average. The same for Junior and then for Senior.

The taking of the test at the lower passing average is an OPTION that would be AVAILABLE to the skater. It is not required.

No matter which passing average is used, it is a pass; and can be used as the requirement for the corresponding level's freeskate test. The freeskate tests on the standard track would still have to be taken at the normal passing average.

Rob

phoenix
04-30-2010, 07:33 AM
Just to clarify- you could though, right? You'd just have to retake any that you passed as an adult at standard track. You can't flip-flop.

I think what Skittle is asking is, if I take the adult Novice MIF test, then I can't take the standard Junior test; I'd have to stay on the adult track or go back and re-take Novice on the standard track. And I believe that is correct; it's the same for adult dance tests--you have to go back to the beginning & retake everything standard track before proceeding up the 'standard' ladder.

Skittl1321
04-30-2010, 07:54 AM
I think what Skittle is asking is, if I take the adult Novice MIF test, then I can't take the standard Junior test; I'd have to stay on the adult track or go back and re-take Novice on the standard track. And I believe that is correct; it's the same for adult dance tests--you have to go back to the beginning & retake everything standard track before proceeding up the 'standard' ladder.

Yes, that's exactly right.

(My message was "Yep!" but the board deemed it too short.)

RachelSk8er
04-30-2010, 08:52 AM
Just to make sure everyone is following this. If you are over 21 and have not taken any MIF tests, then it would make sense to start with the Pre-Bronze MIF test, since that is what is needed to for the corresponding adult freeskate tests.

But, there is nothing stopping you from taking the Pre-Preliminary MIF test. And, if you do start with the standard track tests, while you were under 21, you can switch over to the adult track using the chart in the rulebook.

However, lets say you pass up through the Adult Silver MIF test, you cannot switch over to taking the standard track tests, without starting over. Except at one point. If you have passed the Adult Gold MIF test, you can then start taking the standard track tests at Intermediate.

Now the new RFA says, that adults over 21 taking the standard track MIF tests, can request that they be taken at a lower passing average. However, they have to ask at each test. The adult skaters needs to the let the test chair for that test know that is what they are wanting.

So, an adult could pass their Adult Gold MIF and then take the Intermediate MIF test at either the normal passing average or at the lower adult passing average. If they then chose to test at Novice, at that time they could choose to pass at the normal average or the lower adult average. The same for Junior and then for Senior.

The taking of the test at the lower passing average is an OPTION that would be AVAILABLE to the skater. It is not required.

No matter which passing average is used, it is a pass; and can be used as the requirement for the corresponding level's freeskate test. The freeskate tests on the standard track would still have to be taken at the normal passing average.

Rob

But here's the potential issue that may happen in a few rare circumstances.

Hypothetical situation--Skater takes their first moves test, adult pre-bronze, at 21. Progresses quickly to where they get through adult gold at say, 23. They want to take intermediate, but because they are not yet 25, they MUST take the standard passing average. Adult passing average does not kick in until you are 25. That skater, who is a true adult skater in the more traditional "started as an adult" sense, then can't take the adult passing average until they turn 25.

This is maybe a loophole/rare exception that needs to be addressed. You can have skaters like this. Maybe they spent some time in learn-to-skate beforehand, maybe they even skated as a kid but just never really tested for various reasons--they skated recreationally, skated on an open synchro team and didn't need to test, etc. We had skaters like that on my collegiate synchro team, they had the skating ability of someone with their intermediate or novice moves, just never took tests. Or a college student who starts learning to skate in college (at a school where they are lucky enough to have an abundance of free or very cheap ice and can skate a lot and progress quickly).

Perhaps there needs to be an exception for someone who has their adult gold moves test, but is under 25, to be able to take the higher moves at lower passing averages? There the intent is clear--they are an adult skater. They aren't trying to pass a senior moves test to pass a senior free to qualify them to compete at collegiate nationals or anything else where an issue would arise (or any of the other "preventing people from taking the wrong test" issues that making it 25+ and not 21+ was designed to prevent).

Now I know people up until now have been doing it this way anyhow for years--passing higher standard moves under the standard passing mark (regardless of their age, because if you wanted to take a higher test, you didn't have a choice). Like NoVa, who just passed his intermediate moves (YAY!). But if we're implementing rules to make the current test structure more adult-friendly...may be worth looking into. Because even though the adult skater in my hypothetical may be young, there still are differences in the way someone who started skating in their 20s and the way someone who started skating as a kid will skate. We all know that--when you watch a level like silver or gold that tends to have a mix, you can pretty much pick out who is a kid-skater-turned-adult and who is an adult-turned-skater.

Stormy
04-30-2010, 09:00 AM
An interesting note from the Governing Council blog "The best description of an RFA was by Hal Marron describing the Adult Committee's request to lower the passing average for adults taking standard MIF tests - "It's like getting a senior discount." I'm sure it was meant in jest, but I don't know if that was the best thing to say to present it. :frus:

rlichtefeld
04-30-2010, 09:33 AM
But here's the potential issue that may happen in a few rare circumstances.

Hypothetical situation--Skater takes their first moves test, adult pre-bronze, at 21. Progresses quickly to where they get through adult gold at say, 23. They want to take intermediate, but because they are not yet 25, they MUST take the standard passing average. Adult passing average does not kick in until you are 25. That skater, who is a true adult skater in the more traditional "started as an adult" sense, then can't take the adult passing average until they turn 25.


Rachel, and others,

The RFA, as written, says the "adult discount" kicks in at 21, not 25.

Here's the compete list of RFAs for this year.

https://www.usfsaonline.org/GoverningCouncil/Docs/RequestsforAction.pdf
(You will have to login with your membership number to see it.)

Look at page 8 for this RFA.

Rob

rlichtefeld
04-30-2010, 09:40 AM
I think what Skittle is asking is, if I take the adult Novice MIF test, then I can't take the standard Junior test; I'd have to stay on the adult track or go back and re-take Novice on the standard track. And I believe that is correct; it's the same for adult dance tests--you have to go back to the beginning & retake everything standard track before proceeding up the 'standard' ladder.

There is no Adult Intermediate/Novice/Junior/Senior test in this RFA.

There is only one set of standard track MIF tests.

The only thing that this RFA would do is allow that an adult over the age of 21 could pass the current tests with a lower passing average.

The chart in the PDF doesn't cut and past well, so I can' include it here, but the RFAs can be found here:
https://www.usfsaonline.org/GoverningCouncil/Docs/RequestsforAction.pdf

Rob

Debbie S
04-30-2010, 09:42 AM
Perhaps there needs to be an exception for someone who has their adult gold moves test, but is under 25, to be able to take the higher moves at lower passing averages? Unfortunately, there is always going to be one unusual case where the existing rules might not be ideal. Nothing can be perfect for everyone. If the rationale was that those under 25 can pass the standard track test, then that's what that skater would need to do, or else wait until they are 25 to take the adult version. And I think it's rare that any college student would have the time to go from LTS to Adult Gold in 2 years, and if they really are that talented, they shouldn't have a problem passing at the kid standard.

rlichtefeld
04-30-2010, 09:48 AM
Unfortunately, there is always going to be one unusual case where the existing rules might not be ideal. Nothing can be perfect for everyone. If the rationale was that those under 25 can pass the standard track test, then that's what that skater would need to do, or else wait until they are 25 to take the adult version. And I think it's rare that any college student would have the time to go from LTS to Adult Gold in 2 years, and if they really are that talented, they shouldn't have a problem passing at the kid standard.

Please read the RFA before repeating incorrect information. The ages for this rule change are 21 and 50. At 21 there is one set of passing averages, and at 50 there is another.

There is no 25 in the RFA!

Rob

Skittl1321
04-30-2010, 09:55 AM
There is no Adult Intermediate/Novice/Junior/Senior test in this RFA.



I think what is meant by "Adult Intermediate" is Intermediate at the Adult Standard.

If you passed that - then you can't take Novice at the regular standard without going back and retaking Intermediate at the regular standard. (At least, that is how dance is done.)


There is no 25 in the RFA!


Thank you. (And thank you for the pdf link) I had asked her where the 25 came from, and apparently Lexi said it at some point, but it never made it to the final proposal.

Is there really an issue if someone who did adult-standard MITF competes at Collegiates? I mean if some 21 year old did pass the adult standard MITF and then passed the standard track (because there is no adult) freestyle- why would it matter that they could then go to collegiates? Heck- if some 50 year old passed their n/j/s free- couldn't they then go to regionals? Having taken the "senior discount" (I like that) on moves, they probably just won't be competitive. (and it would disqualify them from adult nationals- since you can't compete that and qualifying in the same year)

I can see how there might be issue for synchro teams- but it seems like those teams could just require standard track tests.

rlichtefeld
04-30-2010, 09:56 AM
For those of you that can't login to the USFS site, here's the 2010 Governing Council Requests for Action PDF hosted on my site:
http://www.gerfsc.com/USFSA/2010/RequestsforAction.pdf

Rob

Skittl1321
04-30-2010, 10:01 AM
This hasn't really been touched on- I see the RFA also adds Master's passing marks to the current adult track. So Adult Bronze/Silver/Gold would have a lower passing average for 50+.

That's interesting, and I think will be very encouraging to a lot of adult start skaters.

RachelSk8er
04-30-2010, 10:47 AM
I can see how there might be issue for synchro teams- but it seems like those teams could just require standard track tests.

Synchro shouldn't be a problem under the current rules.

Adult is the only one of the 3 adult levels level someone 21+ would skate that has a test requirement, and it's preliminary/adult pre-bronze/first figure. (No test required for open adult or masters, unless that's changed in the last year.)

Collegiate requires preliminary. Most skaters trying out for collegiate teams are under 21 so they'd have to take standard tests anyway. And if someone 21+ (because there are a few grad students who skate) is a good enough skater to skate on a collegiate synchro team, they would have no issue passing preliminary MIF. MOST COLLEGIATE TEAMS IMPOSE THEIR OWN HIGHER REQUIREMENTS ANYWAY. Miami has cut skaters with 2 gold tests, even from collegiate. Most teams want at least intermediate (but will make exceptions for a good skater with lower tests). A lot of these skaters trying out for collegiate come off of junior or senior teams anyway (and USFS requires intermediate for junior and novice for senior), so they have the tests when they get to college. Schools near the bottom of the placements at sectionals are not able to be as selective, but still, they're mostly dealing with skaters too young for the adult test to apply.

Senior is the only other level that has a test requirement anyone 21+ could skate on, you need novice per USFS. Top teams won't look at you if you don't have at least junior, preferably senior with another gold test to go along with it (it's not like the 1990s when you could get away with having juv/int/novice moves and skate on an internationally competitive senior team). Chances of someone that age deciding they want to skate on a senior team (who doesn't have the tests by that point and who hasn't been skating synchro) are slim. Maybe when you're dealing with a new team trying to pop up, then it could come into play.

rlichtefeld
04-30-2010, 11:13 AM
I think what is meant by "Adult Intermediate" is Intermediate at the Adult Standard.

If you passed that - then you can't take Novice at the regular standard without going back and retaking Intermediate at the regular standard. (At least, that is how dance is done.)


This is not the way I understand it, and not the way that Lexi explained it at Adult Nationals at the Adult Committee meeting on Thursday night.

A pass is a pass.

You could pass the Novice MIF test with the lowered average. (However, you'd have to tell the test chair and judges that you were attempting to pass under the lowered average - beforehand. I'm assuming that the test forms will be updated to have this printed on them.)

And, then if you so chose, you could take the Junior MIF test at the full passing average. There would not be a requirement that you go back and take any of the tests you had already passed at the higher passing average to do so.

However, I'd have to ask why you would want to do it? Why if to pass a level at a lower standard due to you age would you then want to take a higher level MIF test at the more difficult passing average. It's not like your age is going down, and it's not like your are required to take the test at the lower passing average.

Rob

Rob

Isk8NYC
04-30-2010, 11:16 AM
Rob - I am confused about the 21/25-year old checkpoint. I understand that the RFA states that the age would be 21. Debbie used 25 because Lexi mentioned it a page back in this thread ...
Hi All,

I hope I can answer some of your questions . . .

MIF - the age variance for the adult passing average to begin at 25 instead of 21 is to prevent the unintended consequences of younger skaters taking these tests at a lower passing average when they are capable of taking the standard passing average.

Stay tuned for GC news!

~ Lexi

Perhaps Lexi intends to bring this change (from 21 to 25) up for consideration before the GC votes on the RFA?
Can RFA's be amended at the GC in that manner?

Skittl1321
04-30-2010, 11:17 AM
However, I'd have to ask why you would want to do it? Why if to pass a level at a lower standard due to you age would you then want to take a higher level MIF test at the more difficult passing average. It's not like your age is going down, and it's not like your are required to take the test at the lower passing average.



I don't know- because some moves are more difficult on the body than others (choctaws for example require turned out hips)- so it's possible that a "problem move" might make a skater want to do a test they can't pass at the adult standard, but then resume standard track.

Or if you get a retry quite a few times- you finally give in and take adult standard, but then you'd like to give the next test at least a try at the standard track.

It's interesting to know this works differently then the dance track. That's confusing- as is the 3 uses of the word Master's.

RachelSk8er
04-30-2010, 11:30 AM
I don't know- because some moves are more difficult on the body than others (choctaws for example require turned out hips)- so it's possible that a "problem move" might make a skater want to do a test they can't pass at the adult standard, but then resume standard track.


Is the one pattern on senior MIF changing so that the choctaws in it come out though? Because that kind of defeats that argument if they're staying. (Sorry, I'm not all that familiar with the changes to the test that are coming in September...trying to get through junior first.) Granted it's only 2 choctaws, they're quicker, and most skaters I've seen working on that pattern flatten them to where they're mohawktaws and get away with it. (Like how everyone got away with mohawktaws on junior before they changed the focus from quickness to edge quality.)

Choctaws actually don't require turned out hips on their own. A single choctaw isn't hard, I love putting a back to forward choctaw in footwork or before a flip jump (RBO, LFI, then 3 turn). It's when you have to do them consecutively on deep edges (a-la junior pattern) that the step from the forward edge to the back edge is just a heck of a lot harder if you don't have the natural turnout from the hip.

rlichtefeld
04-30-2010, 11:32 AM
Rob - I am confused about the 21/25-year old checkpoint. I understand that the RFA states that the age would be 21. Debbie used 25 because Lexi mentioned it a page back in this thread ...


Perhaps Lexi intends to bring this change (from 21 to 25) up for consideration before the GC votes on the RFA?
Can RFA's be amended at the GC in that manner?

Pretty much anything can be changed at GC, due to amendments, etc. If you have never been, it is interesting. That's how the vocal music rule change got slipped in, as a floor RFA; and there wasn't much time for anyone to digest it, before it was voted on.

However, I think that Lexi may have just had a slight typo with 25 instead of 21 in her post. I just checked the ballot that the Adult committee voted on, and it had 21 and 50.

Rob

Skittl1321
04-30-2010, 11:35 AM
Is the one pattern on senior MIF changing so that the choctaws in it come out though?

Oh choctaws were just an example because I can't do them to save my life (and my coach is always telling me to turn my hips out on them, so I assumed that was the issue.). I don't even know where they are in the test sequence. But there are often "problem" moves that are just tough to get past.

But I do know a friend whose about given up on ever passing Intermediate- so if she goes for an "adult pass" and can then move to the next test at standard level, I bet she would try that before trying adult again, since most of the coaches in the area think the only reason she's not passing is because she is an adult.

RachelSk8er
04-30-2010, 12:08 PM
Pretty much anything can be changed at GC, due to amendments, etc. If you have never been, it is interesting. That's how the vocal music rule change got slipped in, as a floor RFA; and there wasn't much time for anyone to digest it, before it was voted on.

However, I think that Lexi may have just had a slight typo with 25 instead of 21 in her post. I just checked the ballot that the Adult committee voted on, and it had 21 and 50.

Rob

I think the original plan was 25, because I clearly remember Lexi saying that at the adult committee meeting.

vesperholly
04-30-2010, 01:31 PM
But I do know a friend whose about given up on ever passing Intermediate- so if she goes for an "adult pass" and can then move to the next test at standard level, I bet she would try that before trying adult again, since most of the coaches in the area think the only reason she's not passing is because she is an adult.

But wouldn't she just have the same problem all over again on Novice standard track - not passing "because she's an adult"?

FWIW, I do not have open hips and can't do a spread eagle or ina bauer to save my life. I made it through the choctaws OK. If I can, you can!!! :D

Skittl1321
04-30-2010, 01:35 PM
But wouldn't she just have the same problem all over again on Novice standard track - not passing "because she's an adult"?

FWIW, I do not have open hips and can't do a spread eagle or ina bauer to save my life. I made it through the choctaws OK. If I can, you can!!! :D


Not necessarily- intermediate is kind of the bump from "adult tests" to "regular tests" now. So judges in this area seem to be really really hard on adults because they don't "need" the test. This particular skater has had multiple coaches watch her tests and they all think they are passing (coaches who have successfully gotten skaters through senior moves- they know the intermediate test). So since novice isn't the "bump"- judges aren't necessarily going to look at it the same way- they just know she passed intermediate, the judges won't know whether she passed it adult or standard.

Good to know on the choctaws I'm light years away from needing them on a test, but I just wish I could do them occasionally when given in group class footwork.

sk8er1964
04-30-2010, 03:59 PM
Not necessarily- intermediate is kind of the bump from "adult tests" to "regular tests" now. So judges in this area seem to be really really hard on adults because they don't "need" the test. This particular skater has had multiple coaches watch her tests and they all think they are passing (coaches who have successfully gotten skaters through senior moves- they know the intermediate test). So since novice isn't the "bump"- judges aren't necessarily going to look at it the same way- they just know she passed intermediate, the judges won't know whether she passed it adult or standard.


Novice is one of the tests (like Juvenile) that is very hard to pass. I've been told that it is harder than Junior and Senior. If your friend is having difficulty at Intermediate, chances are that she would not be able to pass Novice at standard requirements either. Of course the new requirements might play more to her strengths, since I understand that they are combining patterns so it might be less physically difficult. I'm not up on the changes.

RachelSk8er
04-30-2010, 09:04 PM
Novice is one of the tests (like Juvenile) that is very hard to pass. I've been told that it is harder than Junior and Senior. If your friend is having difficulty at Intermediate, chances are that she would not be able to pass Novice at standard requirements either. Of course the new requirements might play more to her strengths, since I understand that they are combining patterns so it might be less physically difficult. I'm not up on the changes.

I don't think novice (in its current state) is technically harder than junior or senior. Novice is just SO FREAKING LONG with all those laps around and around and around the rink to do the turns on the end patterns. Then junior in comparison is really short, just 4 elements, so skaters get through it much more quickly (especially since by the time you're on junior, the power circles shouldn't take much work, so really that's 3 elements that you actually need to put time into). Luckily the length of novice is changing though, they combined the 4 laps around the rink into one serpentine pattern with just the turns, no stroking. And no more bracket-3-bracket. That's the worst, most pointless pattern ever, it doesn't teach a skater to do proper brackets. 10 yrs ago they took it off intermediate in lieu of the current intermediate brackets (which do teach proper brackets), but then for whatever reason, they decided it was a good idea to tack it onto the (already long) novice test.

vesperholly
04-30-2010, 10:12 PM
I don't think novice (in its current state) is technically harder than junior or senior. Novice is just SO FREAKING LONG with all those laps around and around and around the rink to do the turns on the end patterns. Then junior in comparison is really short, just 4 elements, so skaters get through it much more quickly (especially since by the time you're on junior, the power circles shouldn't take much work, so really that's 3 elements that you actually need to put time into). Luckily the length of novice is changing though, they combined the 4 laps around the rink into one serpentine pattern with just the turns, no stroking. And no more bracket-3-bracket. That's the worst, most pointless pattern ever, it doesn't teach a skater to do proper brackets. 10 yrs ago they took it off intermediate in lieu of the current intermediate brackets (which do teach proper brackets), but then for whatever reason, they decided it was a good idea to tack it onto the (already long) novice test.
Yeah, that was a terrible idea. "This move is so hard, let's make it an even higher passing standard!" :P I do think it helps to learn double rockers that show up on Junior ...

Intermediate to Novice is a bigger jump than any other test. Novice introduces many skills that have no foundation in previous tests, like the rotate/counter-rotate motion for the rocker choctaws and the rapid foot changing of the 3-turn pattern. Novice was to date the only test that, after I passed Intermediate, I could NOT DO most of the moves. Not that I couldn't do them to passing standard, I couldn't do them at all. My coach had to literally hold my hand and push me into the rocker choctaws when I first learned them. :giveup: I spent 4 years on Novice and 1.5 on Junior.

NoVa Sk8r
05-01-2010, 12:21 AM
Pretty much anything can be changed at GC, due to amendments, etc. If you have never been, it is interesting. That's how the vocal music rule change got slipped in, as a floor RFA; and there wasn't much time for anyone to digest it, before it was voted on.

However, I think that Lexi may have just had a slight typo with 25 instead of 21 in her post. I just checked the ballot that the Adult committee voted on, and it had 21 and 50.

RobIt's 25, as it is listed in the green sheets. The RFA was wrong.

Stormy
05-01-2010, 07:54 AM
Novice was to date the only test that, after I passed Intermediate, I could NOT DO most of the moves. Not that I couldn't do them to passing standard, I couldn't do them at all. My coach had to literally hold my hand and push me into the rocker choctaws when I first learned them. :giveup: I spent 4 years on Novice and 1.5 on Junior.

My coach is having to do similar things with me. Granted, I worked on Novice really infrequently before, but I thought I at least had a grasp of the concepts of it. Yeah, not so much. Like so many other things with my last coach, I was taught Novice MIF wrong too, so it's back to basics on those too. At least with a lower passing standard, I have a snowball's change to pass these at some point.

RachelSk8er
05-01-2010, 09:06 AM
Yeah, that was a terrible idea. "This move is so hard, let's make it an even higher passing standard!" :P I do think it helps to learn double rockers that show up on Junior ...

Intermediate to Novice is a bigger jump than any other test. Novice introduces many skills that have no foundation in previous tests, like the rotate/counter-rotate motion for the rocker choctaws and the rapid foot changing of the 3-turn pattern. Novice was to date the only test that, after I passed Intermediate, I could NOT DO most of the moves. Not that I couldn't do them to passing standard, I couldn't do them at all. My coach had to literally hold my hand and push me into the rocker choctaws when I first learned them. :giveup: I spent 4 years on Novice and 1.5 on Junior.

I got the quick rocker choctaws quickly (ONE good thing old school synchro helped me grasp). You learned that counter motion from doing circles with an outside-facing hand or shoulder grip. I also learned quick brackets from synchro because in the 90s that was "hard" footwork. So I guess some good came out of all the other things synchro taught me that I had to break when I got to higher tests in moves/dance (and when synchro changed and there was much, much more emphasis placed on individual skating skills).

Skittl1321
05-01-2010, 10:27 AM
It's 25, as it is listed in the green sheets. The RFA was wrong.

What are green sheets? If it's wrong in the RFA- and that passes, isn't that then what it becomes until it's amended the next year?

NoVa Sk8r
05-01-2010, 10:35 AM
The green sheets are essentially a listing of the RFAs that the board sees fit to put forth at the meeting. I think of them as the items that have made it past the Qualifying Round.

w.w.west
05-01-2010, 10:41 AM
The green sheets are essentially a listing of the RFAs that the board sees fit to put forth at the meeting. I think of them as the items that have made it past the Qualifying Round.

That is a brilliant analogy!! We will see how the final round goes. : )

rlichtefeld
05-01-2010, 10:44 AM
It's 25, as it is listed in the green sheets. The RFA was wrong.

Then, the ballot that the adult committee voted on was wrong too. It was exactly the same wording that was on the RFA.

Rob

phoenix
05-01-2010, 03:36 PM
Re. the adult passing average vs. standard passing average---I can see an issue possibly coming up w/ regards to qualifications/achievements on a coaching resume.

In dance, there's a very big difference between an adult gold medal and a standard gold medal. IMO, a coach w/ an adult dance gold medal who simply lists "gold dance" on their resume is unethical. While the moves aren't quite the same thing--you're still doing exactly the same moves (vs. dance where you don't have to solo), so maybe it's not such a big deal. But it does seem odd that I could pick & choose to take the easier over the harder if it was more convenient all the way up to senior, then work my butt off & take senior standard track, and end up with a 'standard' gold medal for MIF. Maybe it doesn't really matter though.

vesperholly
05-01-2010, 04:07 PM
But it does seem odd that I could pick & choose to take the easier over the harder if it was more convenient all the way up to senior, then work my butt off & take senior standard track, and end up with a 'standard' gold medal for MIF. Maybe it doesn't really matter though.

I get what you're saying but IMO, it's splitting hairs.

The RFAs were incorrect, apparently the proposal does allow you to return to the standard track after passing a test at the adult passing average. I can see that being contentious, and I really hope that doesn't become such a huge issue that it necessitates delaying its passage until next year.

Skittl1321
05-01-2010, 04:30 PM
I get what you're saying but IMO, it's splitting hairs.

The RFAs were incorrect, apparently the proposal does allow you to return to the standard track after passing a test at the adult passing average. I can see that being contentious, and I really hope that doesn't become such a huge issue that it necessitates delaying its passage until next year.

Hopefully the GC people just don't really think about it too much, and then it can just be amended next year.

I'm interested to see what age it passes at- sounds like if the adult committee voted on it at 21, it would be that unless they amend it on the floor. Although at 28 and nowhere near intermediate moves its moot for me- but I'm a parliamentary nerd so I love following these proposals. (Have you seen the ISU ones- theres some crazy stuff in there- especially Novice age, which might not matter for the USA since they don't send novice skaters to internationals and their "novice" level is something different entirely)

Skittl1321
05-01-2010, 04:32 PM
Stormy posted on FSU that the lower passing average passed- I wonder at which age :)


From the GC live blogger:
We've reconvened with a discussion around #302 - lowering the passing average of the adult and masters MIF test. An amendment was added about the coding of the tests and names of the tests. For instance, when an adult takes the Intermediate MIF test with the lower passing average, it will be coded at HQ, it would be the Adult Intermediate MIF (AIM) not just Intermediate MIF (IM). There would also be a Master code: MIM. Seems to be sensible. And the it was easily approved to be amended.

So it sounds like it's being recorded as a seperate test. If the ability to flip flop between tracks exists now, I bet next year it won't.

She also posted this:
And you think we would move on from #302, but NO. Some guy stands up and asks to rescind #302 in its entirety. What? I was surprised that there was actually support for the rescission.

So it sounds like there was some contention over the whole thing.

phoenix
05-01-2010, 05:25 PM
**removed because people are saying mean things & she's not a jerk--she's a very knowledgeable adult skater who is allowed to have her own opinion, which I'm sure many people are going to share.**

Skittl1321
05-01-2010, 05:51 PM
LOL. It will get fixed next year I'm sure.

And honestly- how many adults do you really think are going to be able to take advantage of jumping between tracks but then passing regular senior moves?

(Besides which can't you already "cheat" your way to a gold medal if you take the lower tests at the adult standard? Not all the moves are judged at a lower passing standard, but some of them are)

vesperholly
05-01-2010, 08:02 PM
Here's a facebook post from a friend who is there:

Wake up Gov Council! When you vote no to withdraw a motion and refer it back to commitee, you have just approved the very change you were trying to prevent. Adult skaters...you can now cheat your way to a standard moves gold medal by jumping tracks between adult and standard. Better get your tests in because I am coming back next year to fight again.

8O :evil: If that person is an adult skater, they should be ashamed of themselves!!!

Skate@Delaware
05-01-2010, 09:15 PM
even though there will be an adult standard, doesn't it boil down to what the judge expects to see? I'm in an area where the quality of skating is expected to be very good, regardless of age and they score appropriately. I don't think the judges will now drop their expectations because "oh wait, an adult is skating and we have new rules" or am I wrong?

techskater
05-01-2010, 09:19 PM
I would guess it's a parent of a skater who feels adult skaters (if there are any in his/her club) take up "valuable space" on the ice from his/her precious child. Jerk.

Stormy
05-01-2010, 09:29 PM
Wow, real nice. Real nice, whoever said that. What do they even care if more adults get a gold medal in their moves? What difference does it make to them? Although, personally, I don't think you should be able to switch back and forth and I was confused because I thought you could only do one or the other once you'd decided. Now I realize why it's not like that. I wonder how big the margin of yes to no votes was on this.

vesperholly
05-02-2010, 12:28 AM
**removed because people are saying mean things & she's not a jerk--she's a very knowledgeable adult skater who is allowed to have her own opinion, which I'm sure many people are going to share.**

Accusing people of cheating isn't quite the same. I'd love to know her motivation for saying such things.

Skittl1321
05-02-2010, 06:57 AM
even though there will be an adult standard, doesn't it boil down to what the judge expects to see? I'm in an area where the quality of skating is expected to be very good, regardless of age and they score appropriately. I don't think the judges will now drop their expectations because "oh wait, an adult is skating and we have new rules" or am I wrong?

Well if they are a good judge, they should enforce the rules as they currently are, not the rules as they want them to be.

But like I said earlier- while I don't know what kind of training they go through, it seems like the numbers are kind of meaningless, and they just write down the passing number if they think the test passes. I've passed tests where all my moves were exactly at the passing standard (I think that's pretty common) and I know there were some moves that I did much better than other moves- it seems like the scores should reflect that.

techskater
05-02-2010, 11:35 AM
Accusing people of cheating isn't quite the same. I'd love to know her motivation for saying such things.

Agreed. It just sounds so bitter and condescending

Skate@Delaware
05-02-2010, 11:36 AM
Well if they are a good judge, they should enforce the rules as they currently are, not the rules as they want them to be.

But like I said earlier- while I don't know what kind of training they go through, it seems like the numbers are kind of meaningless, and they just write down the passing number if they think the test passes. I've passed tests where all my moves were exactly at the passing standard (I think that's pretty common) and I know there were some moves that I did much better than other moves- it seems like the scores should reflect that.
Well, yes that's what I've heard they do (about the numbers), maybe it should just be "pass/fail". But when adults are taking tests on the same session as younger people, I know there is a tendency to compare. It's human nature. Just like dancers & freestylers on the same session are going to be compared. It happens.

w.w.west
05-02-2010, 12:03 PM
Then, the ballot that the adult committee voted on was wrong too. It was exactly the same wording that was on the RFA.

Rob
To be clear, nothing was "wrong". The Board of Directors voted to limit the passing averages beginning at age 25 to avoid unintended consequences of younger skaters who are capable of passing at the standard average.

SkaterBird
05-02-2010, 12:25 PM
The quoted comment,

"Adult skaters...you can now cheat your way to a standard moves gold medal by jumping tracks between adult and standard. Better get your tests in because I am coming back next year to fight again."

is vicious and unnecessary, whether the person who posted it on her Facebook page is otherwise a nice person or not. People are certainly entitled to their opinions. And people who choose to state those opinions in ways that are unnecessarily nasty or derogatory can expect that others will take offense and say so.

dbny
05-02-2010, 12:42 PM
I have seen quite a few adults pass standard MIF tests who would not have passed if they were kids. I think the judges who passed them saw no harm in it, as they would not be competing with the kids anyway. Having adult scoring for standard MIF simply legitimizes what has already been going on in some places.

While I do think that using an adult gold test to advantage as a coach by not saying it was scored at the adult level would be somewhat unethical, it doesn't bother me either. People who choose coaches based on their skating skills rather than their teaching skills are shortchanging themselves and they are unlikely to change their minds about that as they are blinded by the stars in their eyes.

Finally, there are lots of mean hearted people out there, and making accusations about "cheating" is the least of the ugly things such people are capable of. Let them spout their garbage and ignore them.

Skate@Delaware
05-02-2010, 01:07 PM
This thread has taken an interesting turn concerning the passing average with adults. I agree that skills decline with age (I'm noticing a decline myself, just don't want to admit it all the time LOL). Does that mean my coach pushes me less? no way! I'm also back in college but am held to the same standard as the young kids...I don't get a different grade just because I'm 4 times older than they are (ha don't I wish?)

I just wish they'd give an option of swapping out the sit-spin on the freestyle test ((sigh))....holding out for that one :roll:

Debbie S
05-02-2010, 04:00 PM
But like I said earlier- while I don't know what kind of training they go through, it seems like the numbers are kind of meaningless, and they just write down the passing number if they think the test passes. I'm sure some judges give a lot of thought to what passing numbers mean with adults vs kids and some tend to judge them the same, and some will score a passing move at whatever the passing avg happens to be. Or so we think, lol. Judging is subjective, and judges do get training (although I'm curious about how much of that is devoted to adult standards), but you are always going to have variations in opinion and approach.

I have tested both standard and adult track moves. However, I didn't start with the standard tests until after I passed Silver MIF and have only passed Pre-Prelim and Prelim - and since I was probably a bit beyond the level of most kids taking those tests, it may not be the best comparison. On Prelim, I was marked at the passing avg on all moves - when I passed Bronze, I got marked above on the alt BO edge glides. I half-joked afterward to the coach who put me on for Prelim (my coach had a conflict that day) that I was bummed I didn't get any 'over' marks. He thought I should have been marked over on the crossover figure 8s (after jokingly scolding me for expecting too much, lol). But even though I was fast. I was still scratchy (more so than usual - it was insanely cold in the rink that morning and my ankle tendonitis had flared up that week), and it's also possible that this judge just marks passing moves at the avg and no higher.

My Pre-Juv test last May (a retry) might be a better comparison. When I passed Silver (on my 4th attempt), I failed both of the 3-turn moves and got marked above (by 2 judges) on the spirals and power pulls. 3rd judge failed the 3-turns, didn't mark anything over and failed it by 0.2. That was understandable - it was a bad 3-turn day. On my 3rd attempt, I failed the FO-BI turns (passed the FI-BO) and the 8-step - 1 judge did pass me by marking me over on the spirals and power pulls. Each time, there were a couple moves where not all the judges agreed, but I consider a move passed if at least 2 of the 3 judges passed it.

On Pre-Juv, a little less than a year after I passed Silver, I passed the forward perimeter stroking (thought I had a chance to get marked above but I almost ran into the wall at one end), the FI-BO turns, which I hadn't passed on my last Silver test but had passed previously, and the 5-step. I got one passing mark on the FO-BI (no clue why, lol), the back perimeter stroking, and the power pulls. The judges were all over the place - I think the only move they all agreed on was the 5-step. I didn't skate my best, and I think most of the comments were fair. The one move I was surprised about was the power pulls - I felt that I'd done that move about as well as I could have, about the same as I'd done it on Silver, but 2 of the 3 judges said I lacked power. (It bears mentioning that these judges are known to be tougher than the ones who judged my passing Silver test.) Maybe the difference in expectations for standard vs adult track? Or maybe it was just the judges?

One of those judges also happened to be the panel for my 3rd Silver test, and for the 3 moves common to both tests, she wrote the exact same comments, but marked me 0.1 lower (2.7 vs 2.8) on 2 of the moves. Hmmm.

From what I have seen, judges generally cut adults some slack in the area of power, but they have the same standards for edge quality, cadence, placement, etc.

RachelSk8er
05-02-2010, 06:04 PM
even though there will be an adult standard, doesn't it boil down to what the judge expects to see? I'm in an area where the quality of skating is expected to be very good, regardless of age and they score appropriately. I don't think the judges will now drop their expectations because "oh wait, an adult is skating and we have new rules" or am I wrong?

Yeah, they will still be picky here, standards are high. Places like Placid, it won't change, anything flies there.

I just hope that judges who may not be for the idea don't take that personal opinion out on adult skaters and still not pass them even on the lower marks. I don't think that will be an issue with a lot of the judges here--many of them are very, very picky, and the right combination on a panel is a deathwish. But at the same time, some of them are generally really supportive of adult skating, love judging adult competitions, and have a tremendous amount of respect for what we do (some still skate themselves or were competitive as adults but no longer skate due to health and other reasons).

I would guess it's a parent of a skater who feels adult skaters (if there are any in his/her club) take up "valuable space" on the ice from his/her precious child. Jerk.

Those types of parents can kiss my behind. People who treat adult skaters like that need to realize that not only do we work just as hard and have every right to be there, but from a financial longevity standpoint, most of us aren't going anywhere. 10 years from now when their precious little ice princesses are no longer setting foot in ice rinks, I'll still be skating. (Probably still in silver free. Ha ha.)

Pandora
05-02-2010, 06:33 PM
Here is a weird question that I don't think I saw answered yet, (but maybe I missed it), :oops: ....But if an adult took the Intermediate MITF at the new lower passing average could they take the Intermediate Freestyle Test at the regular standard or would they have to take it at the lower passing average because they took the MITF that way???

sk8er1964
05-02-2010, 06:46 PM
I don't believe the freestyle tests are a part of this. They'd still be at regular standard no matter how you took the MIF.

Pandora
05-02-2010, 07:13 PM
Oh...so it is just affecting the MITF. Thanks, I didn't realize that. :) (For some reason, thought it was for all the standard tests). :oops:

sk8er1964
05-02-2010, 08:47 PM
No reason to be :oops:

This stuff is confusing and sometimes changes fast. I'm not at GC, I'm only going by what I read on the internet so I could be wrong (and :oops: ) too.

rlichtefeld
05-03-2010, 05:55 AM
To be clear, nothing was "wrong". The Board of Directors voted to limit the passing averages beginning at age 25 to avoid unintended consequences of younger skaters who are capable of passing at the standard average.

Well on the GC roundup info on the USFS website, they have the start age as 21!

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Story.asp?id=44561&type=media

I guess we'll just have to wait to see what gets written to the rulebook.

Rob

flo
05-03-2010, 10:09 AM
Any significant pair event changes/corrections or more of the same?

RachelSk8er
05-03-2010, 10:40 AM
I don't believe the freestyle tests are a part of this. They'd still be at regular standard no matter how you took the MIF.

Adult passing average still qualifies you for the standard freestyle test at the corresponding level (at least for this year, we'll see if GC changes it).

Personally I think that's fine. A jump passes if the take-off and landing are proper with enough rotation. A spin passes if it has enough revolutions in the proper position. I don't see how you can really lower the standards. Judges don't tend to attack things like speed/power on freestyle tests like they do on moves tests (that lead to adults having difficulty passing the moves tests). And strong choreography, flow, edges can make up for a slight lack of speed/power in the presentation mark.

w.w.west
05-03-2010, 10:51 AM
Well on the GC roundup info on the USFS website, they have the start age as 21!

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Story.asp?id=44561&type=media

I guess we'll just have to wait to see what gets written to the rulebook.

Rob

I stand corrected....the GC roundup info is wrong. It does say 21, but it is 25. Also the vocal info is wrong as well. ALL adult levels will be allowed to use vocals.

These will be corrected today.

RachelSk8er
05-03-2010, 11:41 AM
I stand corrected....the GC roundup info is wrong. It does say 21, but it is 25. Also the vocal info is wrong as well. ALL adult levels will be allowed to use vocals.

These will be corrected today.


So through senior? Or "adult" levels (i.e. up to and through adult gold?)

Ugh this is all so confusing.

Skittl1321
05-03-2010, 11:56 AM
Also the vocal info is wrong as well. ALL adult levels will be allowed to use vocals.

These will be corrected today.

The RFA says "Up to and including the silver level".

Was it amended on the floor to contain Gold (and possibly higher?) levels?

drskater
05-03-2010, 11:58 AM
The quoted comment,

"Adult skaters...you can now cheat your way to a standard moves gold medal by jumping tracks between adult and standard. Better get your tests in because I am coming back next year to fight again."

is vicious and unnecessary, whether the person who posted it on her Facebook page is otherwise a nice person or not. People are certainly entitled to their opinions. And people who choose to state those opinions in ways that are unnecessarily nasty or derogatory can expect that others will take offense and say so.

Sorry to weigh in a bit late on this, but: "cheating"??!!!! Really!!?? That's just d-u-m-b and silly and whacked and weird, because there's not really anything of substance at stake. Adults who compete skate with other ADULTS!! Nobody is going to take this route to the Olympics. In a competition it doesn't matter one whit what your passing average was on your MITF. Nobody is getting away anything here.

phoenix
05-03-2010, 12:15 PM
Sorry to weigh in a bit late on this, but: "cheating"??!!!! Really!!?? That's just d-u-m-b and silly and whacked and weird, because there's not really anything of substance at stake. Adults who compete skate with other ADULTS!! Nobody is going to take this route to the Olympics. In a competition it doesn't matter one whit what your passing average was on your MITF. Nobody is getting away anything here.

As I mentioned before, this could be more of an issue when someone is filling in a coaching resume......although personally I think it's not as big a deal as it would be w/ dance since you are doing the identical test. I also think it remains to be seen how much lenience the judges actually allow, to see whether it's a really huge difference or only a slight one.

I will probably take advantage of the lowered passing average starting at novice. Power was an issue for me for Intermediate (one retry so far), but I'm waiting for the new test to try again, because Int. shifts dramatically from power to control in its new state. I'm more of a 'control' skater. But novice--I doubt I could get the power required to get through that one on the standard track, even though I can skate the test elements.

w.w.west
05-03-2010, 12:33 PM
So through senior? Or "adult" levels (i.e. up to and through adult gold?)

Ugh this is all so confusing.

ALL levels through and including Masters Senior. I agree...it can be and is confusing.

jazzpants
05-03-2010, 01:26 PM
Dumb question but....

How does this impact the current adult moves cross over to Adult moves rule that is in place? Meaning... if I have never tested before, do I have the option of just taking the adult standard track moves all the way thru and qualify to test the Adult FS (i.e. never taking the Adult Track MIF? And if so, which moves to which Adult FS level? Same as before?)

And yes, I have thought about crossing over and testing standard moves on and off for years, but given my limited skating time/resource/etc... I have had to pick doing Adult MIF to qualify for Adult FS tests (and therefore Adults Sectional and National.)

RachelSk8er
05-03-2010, 01:36 PM
Dumb question but....

How does this impact the current adult moves cross over to Adult moves rule that is in place? Meaning... if I have never tested before, do I have the option of just taking the adult standard track moves all the way thru and qualify to test the Adult FS (i.e. never taking the Adult Track MIF? And if so, which moves to which Adult FS level? Same as before?)

And yes, I have thought about crossing over and testing standard moves on and off for years, but given my limited skating time/resource/etc... I have had to pick doing Adult MIF to qualify for Adult FS tests (and therefore Adults Sectional and National.)

I want to say standard moves tests allow you to take corresponding adult freestyle tests (pre-pre moves-->pre-bronze free, prelim moves-->bronze free, etc etc), but I don't know if this is the case from the start, or if it only really applies if you're far along in moves when you start testing freestyle. I've never taken an adult moves test, but when I decided to start freestyle, I was already through my novice moves from when I was a teenager, so I never had to take an adult moves test.

Skittl1321
05-03-2010, 01:44 PM
How does this impact the current adult moves cross over to Adult moves rule that is in place? Meaning... if I have never tested before, do I have the option of just taking the adult standard track moves all the way thru and qualify to test the Adult FS (i.e. never taking the Adult Track MIF? And if so, which moves to which Adult FS level? Same as before?)


By adult standard track, I assume you mean the standard track moves at the adult standard.

It doesn't exist all the way through. Adult passing averages start at Intermediate, if I'm reading the information correctly. So pre-pre through juv there is only one passing score. If you want to do those tests at the "adult" levels, you need to take the adult pre-bronze through gold tests, which presumably cover the same moves (more or less). There is now a "Master's" score for the pre-bronze through gold tests for 50+, but there are no adult or master's scores for pre-pre through juv.

I want to say standard moves tests allow you to take corresponding adult freestyle tests (pre-pre moves-->pre-bronze free, prelim moves-->bronze free, etc etc),
Seriously? Because at the earliest points I kind of think the adult tests are harder, since they incorporate skills from the higher tests (although at the lower score). By just taking the pre-pre test you've done a MUCH easier test than adult pre-bronze. No crossovers, no 3-turn pattern.

The moves on preliminary are kind of different than Bronze, so maybe they are more equivalent (spirals on edges and those awful 3 turns are probably equal to 5-step mohawk and the perimeter stroking patterns), so maybe that's not too bad of a crossover point.

Pre-Pre moves (scored on pass/retry)
Forward Perimeter Stroking
Basic Edges
Straightline Spirals
Waltz Eight

Pre-Bronze moves (scored pass/retry)
Forward Perimeter Stroking
Basic Edges
Forward/Backward Crossovers
Forward 3-turn pattern
Waltz Eight

------------------------------------
(I'm trying to find this in the rulebook and can't... the pre-pre freeskate test qualifies you to compete pre-bronze, prelim-bronze, pre-juv-silver, juv-gold.

Ah here:
C. Adult skaters who have passed standard track moves in the field tests will not be required to take adult MIF tests per the table below.
Standard MIF test passed / Adult MIF test not required
Preliminary MIF / Adult pre-bronze MIF
Pre-juvenile MIF / Adult bronze MIF
Juvenile MIF / Adult silver MIF
Intermediate MIF / Adult gold MIF
Note: Moves in the field equivalencies are allowed in one direction only from the standard track to the adult track, not from the adult track to
the standard track except as described in TR 19.02 B above.

and written another way in a different rule:
TR 28.01 Prior to taking standard free skate tests, candidates must have taken and passed at least the equivalent level standard moves in the
field test. Prior to taking adult free skate tests, candidates must have taken and passed at least the equivalent level standard or adult moves in
the field test as shown in the following chart.
Prerequisite / Adult free skate test
Preliminary MIF or adult pre-bronze MIF / Adult pre-bronze FS
Pre-juvenile MIF or adult bronze MIF / Adult bronze FS
Juvenile MIF or adult silver MIF / Adult silver FS
Intermediate MIF or adult gold MIF / Adult gold FS

That makes sense- it basically if you've passed one level "higher" in the standard track you don't have to back track on the adult tests.

Debbie S
05-03-2010, 02:03 PM
I want to say standard moves tests allow you to take corresponding adult freestyle tests (pre-pre moves-->pre-bronze free, prelim moves-->bronze free, etc etc), but I don't know if this is the case from the start, or if it only really applies if you're far along in moves when you start testing freestyle. Yes, you can use the standard track moves tests to take Adult FS tests, but the crossover is not direct - Pre-Pre does not qualify you for Pre-Bronze, Prelim does (b/c there is a Prelim move on Pre-Bronze MIF). To take Bronze FS, you have to either pass Bronze MIF or Pre-Juv MIF. Juv qualifies you for Silver and Int qualifies you for Gold. Because the rules changed a couple of years ago to allow adult skaters with only standard track FS tests to compete in the corresponding Adult levels, the MIF crossover rule is really only useful for skaters who tested standard track MIF as kids (or under-21 adults) and want to take the Adult FS tests.

Seriously? Because at the earliest points I kind of think the adult tests are harder, since they incorporate skills from the higher tests (although at the lower score). By just taking the pre-pre test you've done a MUCH easier test than adult pre-bronze. I hate the stupid 3-turns on the prelim moves, so maybe that's not true, but once again I think the moves on bronze are generally harder than prelim.Yes, and this is why I have a problem with using only standard track testing to compete in Pre-Bronze through Gold. I understand the rationale, and I am fully in favor of crossover rules that allow those who tested at the lower levels as kids to compete w/o having to take the MIF tests all over again, but I think they should have to fulfill the requirements for Adult FS tests (and if they're going to compete, they'll have a program anyway so an FS test is not that big a deal). The way it's set up now, it's easier to do standard track - for example, skaters can compete in Bronze w/o having to pass 3 Pre-Juv moves. I know the passing avg is the same on Bronze and Prelim, but as we've discussed many times, there isn't always an 'adult standard' - like everything else, it depends on the judge. And the forward and back perimeter stroking and 5-step are more complex (IMO) than any of the Prelim moves (and yes, I have tested both tracks)...even at the 2.5 standard.

harmony
05-03-2010, 02:06 PM
I'm definitely not a fan of the 3 turns on the Pre-juv test. I took my tests up to Preliminary when I was younger so I'm trying to stay on the standard track. When I did take the PJV MIF test earlier this year, I was soooo nervous during the entire test. I did have an O'RLY? moment when I learned that I didn't pass (but so close) because my edges in and out of the turns were "shaky". I wanted to say, "Umm, yeah! Did you see me during the test? All of me was shaking!"

Skittl1321
05-03-2010, 02:07 PM
The way it's set up now, it's easier to do standard track - for example, skaters can compete in Bronze w/o having to pass 3 Pre-Juv moves.

That's an interesting point.

Of course for me it was MUCH easier to do those 3 pre-juv moves than to do the extra jump required for the preliminary freeskate test.
(Additionally the 3 pre juv moves do add difficult, but those awful 3-turns are gone and so are the inside/outside edge spirals, which are tough for adults.)


Back to governing council- anyone know where the idea to add vocal music to more adult levels came from? It sounds like most adults didn't want vocals anyway (I did for low levels) so why add it to IJS levels too?

flying~camel
05-03-2010, 04:57 PM
I'm definitely not a fan of the 3 turns on the Pre-juv test.

Me, neither! And I'm testing them again this weekend (Silver MIF).

I really should've just taken Pre-Juv MIF when I was a teenager. I was ready and definitely would have passed but I chickened out and then quit skating (for skool) shortly thereafter. :??

sk8lady
05-03-2010, 05:56 PM
I did have an O'RLY? moment when I learned that I didn't pass (but so close) because my edges in and out of the turns were "shaky". I wanted to say, "Umm, yeah! Did you see me during the test? All of me was shaking!"

That's like when you stand around for an hour in a rink where the temperature is right around 12 degree and then go skate and the judges' comments are, "You looked stiff."

DUDE! I'm 49 years old, I have arthritis in my toes, and I'm frozen solid! I AM stiff!!!! ;)

JulieN
05-03-2010, 07:07 PM
When does the new Adult/Masters MIF moves scoring go into effect? Someone who went to GC told me she thought it was July, but that seems odd to me. I would think it would either be immediately, or in September.

daisies
05-03-2010, 08:18 PM
Back to governing council- anyone know where the idea to add vocal music to more adult levels came from? It sounds like most adults didn't want vocals anyway (I did for low levels) so why add it to IJS levels too?
You're right, most adults didn't want vocals. The ASC's proposal was to only allow vocals through Silver. But that RFA was not approved by the Board of Directors. As such, it defaults to the standard-track rule, which is to allow vocals at all adult levels. So basically nothing was added.

When does the new Adult/Masters MIF moves scoring go into effect? Someone who went to GC told me she thought it was July, but that seems odd to me. I would think it would either be immediately, or in September.
Sept. 2, 2010.

RachelSk8er
05-04-2010, 01:21 PM
You're right, most adults didn't want vocals. The ASC's proposal was to only allow vocals through Silver. But that RFA was not approved by the Board of Directors. As such, it defaults to the standard-track rule, which is to allow vocals at all adult levels. So basically nothing was added.


I actually didn't mind the vocals in the one program I saw with them at ANs. And I have a song with vocals I've wanted to use for interp that I can't get down to a 1:40 cut I like, so maybe now someday I will use it for freestyle. (I also skated programs w/vocals for years with synchro so I'm used to it.)

What I can't stand is every little kid at my rink (since basic skills have allowed vocals for a while now) and their Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus and whatever else is "cool". I swear they all skate to the same 4 songs.

jazzpants
05-04-2010, 03:38 PM
What I can't stand is every little kid at my rink (since basic skills have allowed vocals for a while now) and their Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus and whatever else is "cool". I swear they all skate to the same 4 songs.I could say the same to a lot of the FS music that I've seen. :roll: :lol: :P (It takes me forever to pick music, just because I want to find something no one has skated to yet.)

drskater
05-05-2010, 05:34 PM
I could say the same to a lot of the FS music that I've seen. :roll: :lol: :P (It takes me forever to pick music, just because I want to find something no one has skated to yet.)

Yes, me too! I will not skate to anything I've heard in another skater's program, including those I've seen on you tube. Lucky for me, I kinda like skating to schmaltzy music (Blah Blah Blah Cha Cha Cha, for example) so there's NO competition from the kids for music choice.

I imagine myself at GC, amending the vocal music rule as follows:

Vocal music allowed, with the exception of:

Anything sung by an anthropomorphic chipmunk, as per the Geneva Conventions

Anything vocals that include excessive syncopated choruses of "Yeah yeah yeah," and/or "oh oh oh oh oh oh," and/or "uh-huh, uh-huh"

any vocals that propose a spanking, a shaking of the bootie, a jiggling of any body part, and/or propositions to "do me"

anything by Justin Bieber (or whatever his name is)...for perpetuity

I was at a competition recently and bet a parent of a skater how long it would take to hear music from Peter Pan. It took 20 minutes. There were four routines done to "Flying." And, yes, plenty of Miley! programs.

harmony
05-06-2010, 10:32 AM
Now I have a great new game to play at competitions! How long until fill-in-the-blank music is played?

sk8er1964
05-06-2010, 11:16 AM
All That Jazz ftw!

rlichtefeld
05-06-2010, 12:10 PM
Now I have a great new game to play at competitions! How long until fill-in-the-blank music is played?

The best game to play in the stands is "Fall/No Fall". The group of players watches the warmup for the event. And, then as each skater's name is called each player calls out how many falls during that program. Someone acts as secretary and records the votes. Each player that correctly predicts the number of falls gets one point. At the end of the event, the points are totalled and a winner is declared!

It is best played at events under 6.0 judging. Under IJS more and more skaters are being a little more careful as to which jumps they'll attempt due to the downgrades and negative GOE's.

Rob

climbsk8
05-06-2010, 12:17 PM
I thought your favorite game at Nationals was "deck the poor little sweeper girls." You got called out for it too ... big time! ;)

jazzpants
05-06-2010, 01:31 PM
Now I have a great new game to play at competitions! How long until fill-in-the-blank music is played?
Mine is more like "how many skaters skate to the same music in an event?" At AN 09, it was "Battle of the Phantom" for my FS event (not my group though.) Quite funny to watch the event on IN!!! :lol:

rlichtefeld
05-06-2010, 03:26 PM
I thought your favorite game at Nationals was "deck the poor little sweeper girls." You got called out for it too ... big time! ;)

The goal was never to "deck" them. It was more like counting coup!

It's just that they were bent over picking up tossies whilst I was trying to get my devil ducks into their basket. I was trying to help them out!

I was already having to take into account the wind (and testosterone field), the affect of the attached card, making sure the arc took them over the glass, but not too high, etc.

RachelSk8er
05-07-2010, 09:16 AM
The best game to play in the stands is "Fall/No Fall". The group of players watches the warmup for the event. And, then as each skater's name is called each player calls out how many falls during that program. Someone acts as secretary and records the votes. Each player that correctly predicts the number of falls gets one point. At the end of the event, the points are totalled and a winner is declared!

It is best played at events under 6.0 judging. Under IJS more and more skaters are being a little more careful as to which jumps they'll attempt due to the downgrades and negative GOE's.

Rob

My friends and I in college used to make drinking games out of watching skating. Ahh good times. I'm sure those of us in the peanut gallery could do that for champ events at ANs :)

harmony
05-07-2010, 09:43 AM
I was already having to take into account the wind (and testosterone field), the affect of the attached card, making sure the arc took them over the glass, but not too high, etc.

Uh huh... And how exactly does one calculate the testosterone field?

I know an engineering excuse when I hear one. ;)

rlichtefeld
05-07-2010, 10:26 AM
Uh huh... And how exactly does one calculate the testosterone field?

I know an engineering excuse when I hear one. ;)

The problem is that a testosterone field is constantly in flux, especially at figure skating events. It's caused by the hetero male's body attempting to offset the effects of the close proximity of sparkles, stones, spandex, and "girly" colors like pink, turquoise, polka dots, etc. This is what makes it so hard to take into account.

Rob

techskater
05-07-2010, 08:57 PM
I thought your favorite game at Nationals was "deck the poor little sweeper girls." You got called out for it too ... big time! ;)

Climb is right and you were busted. By more than just people at the rink, too! ;)