'Trophy Hunting' ... should there be controls or not?

[TashaKat]

I attended a Free skating competition today and was very impressed by the standard of novice skaters out there ..... however ..... I was 'slightly' disconcerted to see that in the 'Beginners' (ie have no tests/ungraded) class there were kids doing CLEAN Lutzes! Should this be allowed? Should there be a limit on the jumps that 'beginners' can attempt? Should something be done about it? Does it really matter?

My view is that, yes, it DOES matter, this class was for beginners and some of the 'true' beginners out there were pretty intimidated having to follow someone flying around the rink doing all jumps up to Lutz (and, who, incidentally are working on their axels!). The judges 'had' to mark up for technical merit, of COURSE they did ...... but surely this is just a blatant attempt to win prizes! Further up the classes it becomes more blurred when the classes are related to test levels but SURELY a beginner is a beginner!

I'd be interested to know how you guys feel about this! I don't have any 'investment' in this as I don't have any kids but felt that it was a bit of a bum deal for the poor kids who were taking part in their first competition and who were trying out their waltz jumps for the first time!

L x

[dbny]

That's how USFSA runs things. I personally think it stinks and is a good reason to go ISI. The problem with ISI, which limits skills to the level passed, is that the elements required are so rigid that there is very little variation in programs. I find ISI competitions pretty boring. I know one school that has all the kids at a give level doing the same program. My daughter would rebell against that for sure. ISI does allow "uncaptured" elements, which are those that are not required in any test, but because all test elements are required, there is little time for anything else.

I recently had to tell one pre-teen who was skating no-test in a large USFSA competition, and who had only a "cheat-cow", that she would be competing against girls with axels. You all know where she came in. I hope she had a good time anyway, haven't seen her since.

[Yazmeen]

Even in ISI, this occurs-- Lynne, here in the US we usually call it "sandbagging." Its especially blatant at the higher basic levels (Delta) or in the early Freestyle levels, especialy in artistic and interpretive programs. You have a genuine Freestyle 1 who gets clobbered by someone in Freestyle 3 or 4 who can do the waltz, half flip and two foot spin without thinking about it. Then in artistic or interpretive, you'll have a kid with only half jumps competing against others with not only solid sals and toes, but good flips, loops and lutzes. It can also be very blatant with Adults who'll skate the same level over and over just to get that gold medal. Sometimes its caught by judges who know the skater and will penalize appropriately, but not always.

I currently am working on ISI Freestyle 2, and will competing at Freestyle 1 this season. That's how I've always done it--competed the level below the one I'm currently working on. To me that's fair. Heck, I have a slew of gold medals already because I usually competed against the book at the basic levels because of my age. I'm looking forward to having competition this year and seeing how I stack up!!!

The basic problem here in the US is that we put so much value on winning. Look at Sasha Cohen, she had a major comeback this year after injury, yet, if you listen to her, she's disappointed that she didn't win Olympic Gold and she only talks about being on the top step of the podium, not just getting on the Worlds or Olympic podium for the first time. Michelle Kwan is the most decorated skater in US history, a true legend in the sport, yet, many consider her a failure or a "choker" because she tried for Olympic Gold twice and missed it. Yeesh, like Silver and Bronze Olympic medals are signs of failure!!! But, that's the American ethic--to quote Nike, I believe, you don't WIN the silver, you LOSE the gold. This attitude filters down to both adults and kids in sports. Look at the behavior some parents have exhibited when they think their child should have won, both in skating and in team sports. Look at Tonya and Nancy. Its sad when you really think about it.

Beth, who is most proud of the SILVER medal she took at an ISI Interpretive skate where she was the lowest level skater of three who decided to compete against each other for fun, even though we skated at three different levels.

[melanieuk]

Initially I voted that the higher level skater should be able to compete, but only allowed to do limited elements.
Then I changed it to : should be disqualified.

I wouldn't like to be competing (at a club competition for instance) if "held back" skaters were going out doing great axels, when I'm trying hard to pull off a flip.
It's not fair, but it seems universal.

[batikat]

Funnily enough I was talking to a mum at the rink today about this very subject. She has a true beginner and she is thinking of entering him in competitions and wanted to know what he'd be up against. In my experience it is quite common for skaters to be held back in order to win medals. Sometimes it seems that the skater/coach/parents have to make a choice either to hold back on tests in order to be competitive, or to take the tests that equate to their ability but knowing that this makes it unlikely they will do well in competition. (I'm not talking about the odd obviously exceptionally talented skaters here but the general mass of skaters)
There is an added complication in that many young skaters can do the jumps and spins but their basic skating is pretty poor - some coaches will push them through the skating tests (and under the new test system it is easier to pass as good elements can compensate for the poor ones)which means they are competing with skaters with the same jumps and spins in their repertoire but don't do so well because of the poor basics/presentation. Other coaches like to wait until the skaters' basic skating/footwork is of a level more consistent with their jumping abilities. Some of these can land an axel or double salchow even but the coach feels they are not ready to test (believing that there is more to skating than jumps and spins and quite right too IMHO). One of the problems therefore is that the technical jumps and spins mark tends to outweigh the presentation mark and these kids win.
I can see three ways this might be addressed - though I know it's highly unlikely it will be by the skating associations
1. Limit the programme content to be up to and including elements from the level above the test held (eg. a level 2 skater could include elements from levels 1, 2 and 3 but no elements from the level 4 tests (UK tests)) This already happens in some interclub competitions here and would seem to be the simplest and most effective method. It could apply to the lower levels where 'sandbagging' seems most common.
2. A skater who is obviously skating well above the standard could be required to test the next level after a certain number of competitions (eg if judges at 3 competitions agree the skater is well above standard they would be required to test the next level) This would be harder to implement as there would have to be records kept and again there would have to be a decision whether it applied to just the jumps and spins or would it have to include general presentation too.
3. The presentation mark could be weighted so that the basic skating and presentation counted for more, which decreases the advantage got by having an axel in a begginner level class. I have seen this done in several Open competitions here and it does encourage the kids to work on their footwork and presentation which I think is a very good thing!!

I don't think there is any way it can be prevented altogether but it is something that should be addressed as currently far too many people percieve the whole sport to be 'unfair'.

[Kelli]

At a local summer competition, the prejuvenile girls group had one skater with a not-so-attractive lutz, which she did in a not-so-attractive combination. Another girl in that group landed a few nice double lutzes in warm-up, though she missed it in the competition.

Tough call, what do you do? The first skater was a test stream pre-juvenile skater. She had a lutz, and that's the hardest jump required at that level. She might have even been skating up a level. Jump wise, the girl with the double lutz could pass her senior free. Yet her coach knew without a consistent double lutz she wouldn't be competive at regionals as a juvenile.

Emphasizing the artistic mark would not have helped, as the girl with the double lutz had far superior stroking, edges, footwork, and presentation to the girl with only the single. Not all that surprising.

I think pre-juvenile competitions and below (maybe even through juv or intermediate) should have two categories - a test category that allows maybe one or two more jumps than the actual test requires, and a second, open category, that follows standard USFSA rules (like no triples in juv, etc). Skaters could compete in either category, but not both at the same competition. Doesn't Canada do something similar?

[singerskates]

Sand bagging goes on in Canada in the Adult levels, test levels and also in the competitive levels too. I think it is done all over the world. Everyone is out to win. I've been sandbagged twice in competition. At some competitions in Canada if there aren't enough compeititors competing in a catagory they will take the skaters of a higher level and let them compete against the lower level. I'd prefer if there weren't enough competitors in event that the judges and someway to mark against the book. That way, the skater has a chance at a medal still and if the skater isn't good enough for a medal, then that would be fair. I even think that senior competitive world and Olympic skaters should be marked this way in the techinical side. I also think that the presentation side should be marked by either show or tour people/managers or audience. How can just 7 judges really know what moves the audience, what takes the audience in? One can have excellent skating elements but lousy choreographyand/or presentation or the opposite. I think judges should only judge elelments against the book. The book should include elements up to a quint axel for jumps even though no one has done a quad axel yet because some day some skater will do it.

[KathySkates]

Adult skaters that continuously sandbag are among the most PATHETIC creatures on earth. I once skated up (to gold) in a local competition. I came in 2nd to a woman 10 years younger than I (that part was not against the rules) that had passed her STANDARD SENIOR FREESTYLE TEST!!! Forgive my screaming but it still boils my blood! This is someone who has medaled several times at adult nationals.
The competition application stated that the USFSA rulebook rules for each event were to be followed but that skaters were permitted to "skate up".
I know what it is like to not have someone to skate against. However, there were plenty of Senior skaters at that competition. Believe me, she would have held her own against them,
A friend of mine said that this particular skater is WELL KNOWN for doing that. I guess beating out the likes of me (10 years older, several test levels lower) for a $1.49 medal in a local competition was really important for her. Sad.
Anyway, I have been around the sport for awhile and can handle a few lumps. My concern is for the children and the newer adult that may just be screwing up their courage to compete for the first time or two.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by KathySkates
Adult skaters that continuously sandbag are among the most PATHETIC creatures on earth. I once skated up (to gold) in a local competition. I came in 2nd to a woman 10 years younger than I (that part was not against the rules) that had passed her STANDARD SENIOR FREESTYLE TEST!!! ...
The competition application stated that the USFSA rulebook rules for each event were to be followed but that skaters were permitted to "skate up".


I don't get it. If she's passed the Sr. Freeskating test, she cannot skate Adult gold. She has to skate Masters. So why was she allowed to skate gold? That sounds shady. The competition chair shouldn't have let her skate that level.

I'm totally against true "sandbagging," but let me put my plug in for those wrongly accused. ;) Many people are quick to label someone a sandbagger, especially if they have jumps deemed to be too high for a particular level. But I think you have to cut adults a *little* more slack. Who are we to know someone's true motivation? Sometimes the reason that woman is still hanging out at Bronze instead of testing up to Silver is because she:
(a) Can't pass the next test because of a particular skill holding her back, such as spinning.
(b) Due to work or home responsibilities, can't get enough ice time to make much real progress.
(c) Sucks at testing and fails because of nerves.
(d) ...
There are a few people who very obviously can pass that next test AND be competitive (however you define it; that's very personal too) at that level, but I honestly don't know many real sandbaggers. Most of the adult skaters I know do want to move up.

I'll hop off my soapbox now.

[KathySkates]

Skaternum - I totally agree with you! I myself have been accused of sandbagging! Behind my back of course! Someone replied to my friend "finally" when told that I was moving up to the next level. (Back then there were only 2 levels in the adult category: Junior and Senior). The ironic thing being that this person had been skating more than twice as long as I was at the time.
Also, nowadays, if you can't pass the test, you can't move up. (Ouch, don't I know it!)
I also agree that the vast majority of adult skaters value reaching a higher level over a medal. I would gladly trade every medal I've ever won, including a regional championship for passing my Adult Gold Free Test.
(Boy when I pass that, we are going to have a party!)
Also - Please stay on the soapbox! We need more people willing to speak out. UGHHH! Don't even get me STARTED about those ADULT MOVES!!!!!!!

[Alexeiskate]

I agree with KathySkates and skaternum. Just because someone you're competing against can perform some more difficult tricks than you and you think will finish above you in competition, it doesn't mean that you should automatically grumble behind her back that she's "sandbagging". There might be valid reasons why she's only test up to that particular level. Why not just focus on enjoying your performance instead of worrying where you'll placed.

[jp1andOnly]

In Canada this became a huge problem a few years ago..still is in a way. However, for the younger skaters, especially those in CanSKate, and pre-preliminary, prelim,etc (we have A, B, and C levels) there are restrictions on the jumps a skater can do. If the skater attempts a jump that isnt allowed, they get a heafty deduction. I've actually seen it happen. For example (someone can correct me if im wrong) prelim A can try up to a flip, B a lutz (or axel..can't remember) and C no resrictions.

I like the idea of having a level (such as prelim, jr bronze, or pre juv) and having a couple of streams..skaters who can do over X jump, skaters who can not.

[arena_gal]

The jump restrictions are a good idea in Canada, but there still is a huge problem once they're past Jr Bronze A because after that, anything goes and the competitive tests come into play. Skaters who have taken the pre-novice competitive test get an equivalency for the Jr.Silver test stream freeskate test. However, the level of jumps required for competitive is significantly higher than test , as a double axel is "strongly encouraged" for pre-novice. So, if they could somehow figure out what to do with skaters who drop out of the competitive stream and go into the test stream, some of the sandbagging might disappear.

[kayskate]

posted by skaternum:
(c) Sucks at testing and fails because of nerves.


My guess would be someone who fails tests b/c of nerves probably does not perform well in competitions either. This is probably not the skater who turns in a great performance and is accused of sandbagging. S/he might look great in practice, but would probably choke in the actual competition.

Though I have not competed, I did choke on a basic test (still passed but did not skate anywhere near what I do in practice). I can virtually guarantee if I choked on that test, I would not look very good during a performance.

Kay

[blue111moon]

Last year several New England cubs introduced "restricted" events at their USFSA Opens. "Restricted Free skating" means that the skaters are limited to doing ONLY the elements specified for that particular test. Higher elements are not allowed. It's proving to be quite popular especially for skaters who haven't tested yet but want the chance to try out their test programs in front of judges. Check out competition applications to see if your local opens might be offering these events. If they don't, you could contact the chair and ask them to.

[Mel On Ice]

I've been burned by this and I have benefited from this.

At a USFSA comp, my bronze competition was merged with the silver comp, guaranteeing I would finish out of the medals. That pretty much cheesed me off.

But since ISI restricts skaters from competing beyond the test they have passed, I had an easy time winning in freestyle 1, even though I was working on elements in 2, 3, and 4. The issue? One element in 2, one element in 3 that I could not do. I've since passed 2, have half the elements in 4, but am held back by one stinkin' element in 3. I"m not sandbagging, I honestly can't pass the test.

[kar5162]

The USFSA does have restrictions on jumps permitted in programs. For example No test does not allow axels, Pre-Pre does not allow doubles. There are deductions for performing higher elements (I think you should be disqualified though). The restrictions are high compared to the test levels it's true, but OTOH, top Senior ladies do all triples except axel and the test structure never even requires a double axel or triple - both of which are required in a Senior Ladies short program. USFSA competitions typically cater to competition skaters, not test skaters. They have a Basic Skills structure that takes you through the axel and is more restricted (similar to ISI). You can also ask your competition chair to hold restricted events where higher level elements are not completed.

As for the adult structure, I have seen Masters adults competing Gold...often competitions don't offer Masters events. I don't know the skater Kathy is talking about, but I can see why if you are an adult you'd prefer to enter adult events, even if you've passed your standard test. Those girls might have been a disaster, but most Senior Ladies can at least land through double lutz in combination pretty consistently. I haven't seen any real adult who can do that.

As for sandbagging...to me sandbagging is when you are getting straight ones easily and are able to perfom elements well above permitted at the level. I think you'll see a lot more people being accused of sandbagging at the adult levels now with the adult moves. I also think you see some of it because there is no intermediary double level. You can't do Gold (and doubles) unless you can land your axel...for many people, the double salchow is easier...plus at Gold, you can do any double. Compare to standard where you're restricted to 2 at Preliminary. Actually, I recently had someone ask me what I was planning to compete, now that I'm an adult and they said that I would be "sandbagging" since I said Silver. Well, maybe I land some cheated doubles, but I don't have an axel and I don't think the chances of my passing Gold moves are all that high.

[melanieuk]

Ok, I'm sold!
I'll change my vote to restricting elements to that particular level. :D

[Mrs Redboots]

It's even worse in dance, because there is no rule to say that you must test, so skaters can compete in the baby class even if they've been dancing for twenty years and skills to match. I watched a superb couple at a RIDL match this summer absolutely squashed by a terribly unlucky draw - their opponents would have looked good dancing the Silver tango, never mind the Canasta! Mind you, it was a superb Canasta, really showed you how it should be done, but those skaters should not have been skating it. But - I didn't know the man, but the woman is a superb free skater, and I don't think she's done any dance tests. For the World Challenge you could choose which dances you did, but you were warned that if you were obviously skating down you would be disqualified.

There's another woman here who will be competing against batikat and me on Sunday, in the same class for the free dance and if she doesn't win in the under-level-6 class she will make the podium. She certainly expects to win! Then she will compete in the "Any Standard" class and do quite well in it, too. I like her, enormously, but I do wish she'd test out of my orbit! Last year I was drawn second in the class, straight after her and just ahead of Tashakat's friend Will, which did me no favours at ALL. I'm told I'm drawn 4th this year, but have no idea between whom.

Main problem is that me and Robert are really only just off the bottom, and still very dependent on other people making mistakes, so this could be total jealousy on my part!

All the same.....

[dani]

I would also like to caution people about automatically dubbing someone a sandbagger.

I recently skated the Peach Classic in which I was entered in pre-bronze freestyle, bronze MIF, and prelim dance. I placed well in both of those events. I think someone could have seen my pre-bronze FS program and come to the conclusion that I was sandbagging. However, what they could not know from my program is that I can't do a backspin or a sitspin. The moves in my program were specifically those that I can do well!

I did sandbag in dance - however because my test center was canceled, my only choices were to skate prelim or not skate. Neither my coach nor I had ever seen an adult dance event and I didn't know what to expect.

Just a couple of thoughts,
Danielle

ps) I like the idea of a restricted set of elements that one can choose from - sort of like the ISI model except that you choose out of a bigger number.
pps) Hey skaternum, there is a skater, Morgan Matthews, who is skating at both of my rinks who puts my "passion" to shame!! ;-) You should see her expression when she skates! (Of course they are in the junior Grand Prix, so ... ;-)

[MissIndigo]

I second Dani's feelings about using caution when calling someone a sandbagger. It can be a tough call, especially at the lower levels. I definitely support the idea of putting elements in a program that you can do well, but I sometimes feel uncomfortable about doing so since my skills are all over the place. For example, I have passed my pre-bronze test, and getting ever closer to the bronze test. If I were to compete with a program (not an interpretive program), I'd want to skate pre-bronze. However, my best moves are spins that you'd normally see on the silver level! I'd feel funny having a program with solid waltz, toe, and sal and then have camel and layback as my spins! I mean, I am closer to having a flying camel that I am a flip. Eek. I don't quite feel like a pre-bronze skater but I don't feel I'm ready for bronze either.

[dani]

MissIndigo, we should combine! ;-) I can land my jumps through the loop solidly and can land a so-so lutz! We'd be unstoppable! ;-)

Hugs!

ps) I agree about not quite feeling like a bronze skater but also not really feeling like a pre-bronze either.

[flo]

The level categories are pretty bizzare at the adult levels, and I agree with Kar that with the adult moves, it's going to be more difficult. In the last several Adult Nationals in which I've competed, a former kid skater, who had not tested has won the silver division. When asked why they didn't skate gold, many of them said that this was their first year or so back, or their first adult competition, and they wanted to see how they did at silver before committing to gold. It's not surprising when you look at the kids competition levels compared to their test levels. These returning adults are old kids, and that's the environment they are use to. Most, if not all, after winning at Nationals do test up to the gold level, realizing that's where they belong. The silver level has become the testing ground for many returning skaters.
There's a lot to consider when you think about testing up. My priorities are interpretive and pairs. I can do a double sal, and if I could do a clean axel, I would probably test. However, being a gold skater would put me in master interpretive (a combination of adult gold and masters), which I don't want to do. I have no problems competing against adult gold skaters, but I am not interested in competing against returning kid skaters. Also if I pass gold fs or pairs, I would be in masters pairs, again competing against returning kids. I did compete in master's pairs at nationals, because of my then partner's level, and we did fine (2nd place), but if I were to be at that level it would exclude many potential partners at the silver level. With the new pairs test requirements and moves, male pair partners will become even more scarce than they already are! So there's no way that I'm going to add to that. So, there's quite a bit for adults to think about as far as test and competition levels. For some it may be wanting to win a medal, but for most of us, it's a great deal more.

[LoopLoop]

Let's not forget that there ARE some real adult sandbaggers out there. Not many, I agree, but I know one in particular. She medaled at a recent AN (her first time there) and definitely could have tested and passed to the next level. However, she has NOT tested because in her own words "I wouldn't have a chance to medal at nationals, so what would be the point of competing?"

[Yazmeen]

This whole discussion is so interesting!!!

Sometimes things depend on skater's motivation overall. I have a good friend who has been an adult skater for about a year now, currently in Beta ISI. We couldn't be more different. She is in it primarily to perform and compete--if that wasn't available, she wouldn't have started. We take a dance class together, and I know she'd LOVE to go to another teacher, because ours doesn't teach for a living--its a sideline, and she and our little troupe don't get a lot of opportunities to perform, and that bugs my friend who loves to perform and do solos. ( In fact, she was somewhat disappointed to realize she wasn't going to be given opportunities to skate solos at our ISI exhibitions until she is Freestyle 1 or higher -- if we did that we'd have every parent of every child in beginner's demanding a solo for their child!!!). She sometimes pushes me to change dance teachers, but I'm not interested and she doesn't want to make the change by herself. My husband finds my friend's skating puzzling, because she usually comes for her lessons and that's it, rarely practices---until she gets her competitive program, and then she will practice. Watching the skills I've had to learn at higher levels and their difficulty, (jumps and spins) she has expressed interest in branching out into dance instead. I don't think she realizes the repetition and practice involved there, not to mention the difficulty in finding partners--again, she's sees it as an opportunity to perform and go for medals and I don't think she realizes that the freestyle stuff comes later after you master patterns. I'm not saying there is any wrong with her motivations--they work for her, and that's fine. Its just different from most skaters I know (like all of you who are as addicted as I am!!!)

My main motivation is to learn and enjoy--I'm absolutely addicted. I've realized now that my new Klingbeil's are going to put off those pre-bronze tests for a while as I've had to completely adjust my skating technique, and while the adjustments are a little frustrating, that's just fine. I enjoy competing, but I could go without this year and I'd still love every moment on the ice. I enjoy getting advice from all of you when something frustrates me, because it frequently helps, and I love the exchanges we have. I never want to get to the point where a medal or a competition means more to me than the skating itself. As I've often said: "I do this for fun, if it stops being fun, I shall cease doing it."

Beth
(whose parents pressured her in competitive piano as a kid and teen, one of the reasons I rarely touch a keyboard not attached to a computer these days...)

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by kayskate
My guess would be someone who fails tests b/c of nerves probably does not perform well in competitions either. This is probably not the skater who turns in a great performance and is accused of sandbagging. S/he might look great in practice, but would probably choke in the actual competition.


That may be true most of the time, but I know of an adult in our area who is great at competition but is terribly nervous during testing.

In his perspective, testing leaves less room for error than competing, because you can miss a few elements in competition but can make up for it with extra speed, presentation, a great spin. Plus your competitors may make mistakes too, so you may come out on the podium with a sub-par performance.

But his view was that during a test if he couldn't get that a particular required element that particular day (even with a re-skate), he fails. Doing an extra jump/spin elsewhere in a program doesn't allow him to pass.

So he tried a few times to pass an Adult test before the Sept 1st deadline, and failed every time. But in competition he's great. So he may, unfortnately, get accused of snadbagging this year at Nationals.

[manleywoman]

I agree that, at least in the case of Adults, we should all use caution against labeling someone a sandbagger. There are so many reasons why someone could be held back a level or two. Some real life examples that I personally know:

I know one guy who has won medals consistantly at AN, but can't pass to the next level because he can't do a backspin, even though he has elements on higher up tests. Beleive me, he'd love to pass the test.

One woman at a recent AN who had just moved here from another country wasn't sure what level she should be in in the US system. So she competed in Gold and won, landing a beautiful 2loop-2loop combo...more advanced than many of the Novice and up ladies were doing! So now that she knows, she was planning on testing this summer to move up. (Interestingly, in a different event earlier in the competition, she didn't skate nearly as well, and did not win even with her advanced skills)

Similarly to Flo, I know people in Dance/Pairs who don't want to take tests for all the reasons Flo stated.

Of course, there is life/work/bills/kids that hampers adults from testing too! So I too caution against labeling anyone a sandbagger.

There is a flip side to this too...I compete Novice at AN, and was shocked at how many of the Gold skaters were WAY better at jumping than we were! I think there were a lot of Novice level skaters who are Novice only because they passed a test 20 years ago, but can no longer do the elements. I kid you not, that in Novice the past few years a lot of the girls have had trouble landing axels and 2sals (which, one would think, would be standard at Novice). Yet in Gold I see ladies doing axels from spread eagles, 2toes, even 2loops and 2flips. And I think what's happening is a misperception: I've had Gold ladies tell me they are afraid to move up because they think Novice is so much harder! So a lot stay down on Gold just because the word "Novice" scares them!

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this.

[dcden]

My various thoughts on sandbagging... yes, there are people who stay at a certain level in order to win medals; in fact, one of my competitors told me he would not test FS before the Adult MIF tests came into effect because he wanted to win 1st place at AN. But one thing to realize is that, for many of us, you're going to get complaints no matter what you do. Most skaters at any level have some, but not all of the skills that are common in the next higher level (e.g. many bronze skaters have flip & Lutz). If you stay at your current level, some will say you're sandbagging ("He has a ***? Well then, he should move up!"). If you test up, some will feel free to weigh in on your weaknesses ("What's he doing in *** level? He can't even do a ***!").

manleywoman, I'm pretty sure I know who you're referring to in your first post, and yes, it is unfortunate that, if he competes at AN03 at the same level, he will probably be accused of sandbagging when we all know he is doing his best to test up.

[Designdiva]

It is interesting to me that people worry about sandbagging. To me, it's like this: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I watched a woman at a recent Bronze competition win with a camel-change-camel and a sloppy lutz jump. Now, I have a beautiful lutz-combo and sloppy spins. Do I think should place above Camel-change-camel? No, I use my placement as motivation to continue to work hard on my spins.

I've been called a sandbagger to my face. The woman who accused me could only see the lutz-loop combo in my Bronze program and didn't notice that I had no backspin and my forward scratch had frequent-flyer miles. Even when I tried to explain that I had not passed the Bronze freestyle test and was "skating up" a level and that I could technically compete in pre-Bronze she became even more indignant. She said that I was "depriving" lower-level Bronze skaters of medals.

I could care less about medals. I've won some. I've never won an event. And there were some times I've looked at the results sheet and just *could not* understand what the judges were looking at. But so what? I was pleased with how I skated and that was most important.

So I guess this is a long-winded way to say don't worry about the competition. As long as the rules are the way they are, what other people do has nothing to do with you. IMO, it makes more sense to channel that energy toward improving your skating. Get that flip fully rotated or get your sitspin lower. I'm trying to test up to silver before Adult Nationals. I know people will be doing axels, maybe two. Unfortunately, my axel is two-footed. All I can do is work on getting that clean back-outside edge.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by kayskate
My guess would be someone who fails tests b/c of nerves probably does not perform well in competitions either.

Usually, but not necessarily. I perform much better at competitions (Peach Classic notwithstanding!!)than I do at tests. I know some folks who are just the opposite. It really depends on the skater.

skaternum

[dcden]

Well you sure did get some attitude from that lady! It never ceases to amaze me how skating competitions can reduce adults to childish behavior. (I don't have to remind some of you of a certain poster on FSWorld who blamed everyone who ranked above her of being elite skaters, using positions on their skating club board to influence judging, etc. to rank above her.) This is all supposed to be fun!

DesignDiva, I think you have the right attitude in focusing on your skating only, and blocking out some of the negative comments made by others.

[KJD]

You know, some of the things I'm hearing on this thread are amazing! I cannot believe for instance that someone has come right out and called someone else a sandbagger to their face! Wow! That's just really bad form. Even if its true. I'm trying to search my feelings to see how I would feel about some of this. Its a little hard on a personal level because I haven't had as much chance to compete as I'd like (Missed AN two years ago due to a schedule conflict and tore my calf 2 weeks before it last year). My motivation has been to achieve the skills to test up - whether I'm competitive at that level instantly or not. I like the achievement of getting to the milestone I guess. I skated Silver this past year but only at sectionals, came in middle of the pack because I got nervous and blew the first two elements but felt good that I recovered. My goal is to test up to Gold this fall because I want to compete at that level in the Spring. I may get buried but if I skate well, that will be ok for me. My axel is good (when I'm calm) and my double sal is coming along as is my double loop. I just think it would be fun to compete and have a chance to do them all in my program - for me it will be a victory just to get there at the Gold level. (Must survive the inside 3's from Novice/Gold moves first!)

[kar5162]

I am also a better in competition than tests...at least the last time I competed (about 1.5 years ago) I felt much more relaxed and skated better than any tests I've taken so far. I wouldn't mind skating Gold since I can sort of land doubles and think it's fun to try :)...I think my spins are also pretty good for Silver - I can do camel-back camels, camel-sit-back sit-Y spins (though not near my ear), and flying camel into back sit. However, I do not have an axel. It's been fairly consistent lately...but for me that means very cheated on one foot or nearly clean on 2 - at least not falling hard anymore, but not exactly test quality. I try and try, but I think axels are just going to be difficult for me.

I will try to go Gold, because I really don't care about winning - I'd rather get to try doubles, but it's still pretty intimidating to think that I'll be up against double flips. Testing Intermediate (to compete Novice) is not an option though :).

Kim

[Designdiva]

dcden, you and I have had conversations about how some people take this stuff a little too seriously.;)

KJD, I must say, this woman messed with my head a bit. I mean, it took me four tries to pass the Bronze freestyle test. And each time I failed, I left a little confidence on the ice. Then, someone basically tells me that I'm cheating, which even though I find ridiculous, I admit to giving her comments some considration. So, there were a couple of times when I placed lower than I expected when I wondered: "Hmm, are they penalizing me for that 3-jump combo?"

Diva wisdom #53:
In skating, as in life, it is unwise to make assumptions about other people. :)

[KathySkates]

Originally posted by Designdiva
dcden, you and I have had conversations about how some people take this stuff a little too seriously.;)

KJD, I must say, this woman messed with my head a bit...

Oh Designdiva! Hugs to you! That is so sad! I cannot relate to some adult skaters' behavior.
On the practice ice at Nats this past year, many silver ladies were moaning to me about this one particular skater that was knocking other ladies over left and right! During their music! And she wasn't apologizing! She buzzed by me one time and when she came around again, I stretched my 5'1" wide body to it's fullest. I added a my tough "teacher face" on top (maybe I growled a little too) and she got out of my way pretty fast as she must have weighed 100 pounds tops.
I could not believe her behavior! Now I would never try to hurt someone but if she had given me the bum's rush, chances are she would be the loser as I probably outweigh her by 50 lbs.

We could probably start a whole board about these overly "serious" skaters. Personally, I prefer the spirit of the lady at a training camp that was wearing a medal that said "last place". Yes, she did come in last but she was celebrating that she skated and seemed to be enjoying it. I felt honored to be in her company!

To the obnoxious skaters, I say life is too short to be serious! Get a grip! Get over yourselves! Learn to have fun!

[skaternum]

Originally posted by dani
pps) Hey skaternum, there is a skater, Morgan Matthews, who is skating at both of my rinks who puts my "passion" to shame!! ;-) You should see her expression when she skates! (Of course they are in the junior Grand Prix, so ... ;-)

LOL! To be polite to the group, I suppose I should confess to everyone here that I was pestering poor Dani while she was warming up her tango at Peach Classic. I was making faces at her and yelling with a terrible accent, "I need to see the *passion.* This is the dance of love." Dani dutifully complied as best she could in the middle of a competition. :lol:

[Terri C]

I have had a few expeiences either at a competition or seminar that people have said " You're bronze level"
I've had to say no, because I have the same predicament as DesignDiva. I've failed the Bronze freestyle 4 times, with no real chance to take it again unitl I get a clean , consistent 3rd single and my sitsppin lowered. Also, there's the MIF issue now!

Trust me, some of us are not sandbagging- wea re really trying to test up to the next level!

[Terri C]

Get you flip fully rotated or your sitspin lower

That's exactly what I'n doing!

[CanAmSk8ter]

Dance is different. Sometimes it's better. For example, the competition I'm doing in three weeks (yikes!) said for Intermediate you can't have passed any Silver dances, and the dance was Keats' Foxtrot. Makes sense. I'm competing Novice; I can't remember the requirement off the top of my head. Now, I've passed exactly the maximum for Intermediate, Pre-Silver and no Silvers. BUT, since I've already passed the Foxtrot, I decided to compete Novice. I figure I have to work on my Tango anyway. I know there may well be girls in Novice who have passed a Silver dance or two or three, and it's possible there will be girls who have a Pre-Gold already. My Tango stinks, but I wanted to do this competition because it's near where my best friend moved to and she might come watch. And skating Intermediate at this point seemed, well, pointless. Making the podium would probably not even be a challenge. As much as I like to win things, I'd rather say "I got fifth out of ten or whatever in Novice, and that's my best finish in Novice so far," than "Yeah, I won Intermediate," when I know that the girls in Intermediate will probably be girls who are working on their Foxtrots, not girls who have passed it. In other words, I technically am eligible for Intermediate, but I know it's better to challenge myself and skate Novice. After all, next year I won't have a choice!

Lake Placid, OTOH, has no requirements or limits for its solo events. I skated Novice Solo this year. The girl who won my group has passed her Gold Dance. Why wasn't she skating senior, or at least junior? I have no idea- although I think she may have skated junior as well. At the other end of the spectrum, another girl from my club skated the same level having only passed her Pre-Bronze. The dances, BTW, were Blues and Rocker. I can't think of a competition except Lake Placid that I'd go to knowing that I could end up competing in Novice against girls who have their Golds. Luckily, the competition thins out big time after Novice. This year they had forty-five Novices and I think twenty Juniors. I'm ready, provided that the dances they draw are ones I can do, to skate Junior next year. I could spend the rest of my life trying to move up to the top spots in Novice. At least in Junior the groups are smaller.

Incidentally, the USFSA seems to have abolished upper-end limits on dance tests. It used to be that passing two Pre-Golds made you Junior, but I know quite a few Novices who have passed that, as well as some Juniors who I'm pretty sure have passed their Golds. Anyone know if it's true that you can pass any dance or moves tests and still compete in qualifying events at the free dance level you've tested? In other words, my understanding- which may be wrong- is that you could technically have you senior moves and gold dance, but as long as you haven't passed your novice free dance and you're not over 18, you could compete Internediate. Does this make sense to anyone?

[kayskate]

Originally posted by kar5162
I can do camel-back camels, camel-sit-back sit-Y spins (though not near my ear), and flying camel into back sit. However, I do not have an axel. It's been fairly consistent lately...but for me that means very cheated on one foot or nearly clean on 2

This sounds like me. My spins far outweigh my jumps. Although my singles are good, I do not have an axel and my 2sal is cheated.

I wonder if anyone has been called a sandbagger for spins.

Kay

[Moto Guzzi]

Originally posted by LoopLoop
Let's not forget that there ARE some real adult sandbaggers out there. Not many, I agree, but I know one in particular. She medaled at a recent AN (her first time there) and definitely could have tested and passed to the next level. However, she has NOT tested because in her own words "I wouldn't have a chance to medal at nationals, so what would be the point of competing?"

I know the skater in question and disagree with the statement that she is a "real adult sandbagger." Choosing not to test to the next higher level even though one can pass the elements does not make one a sandbagger. I saw a lot of kids at regionals who could do the elements for passing a higher level freestyle test but were competing in a lower level. Would you call them sandbaggers, too?

Some people may be content with medaling only when there are just two to four skaters in their event; others prefer to be competitive in a larger group of skaters. There are many legitimate reasons for not moving to a higher level. I agree with Manleywoman that we should all use caution against labeling someone a sandbagger and would like to add that we should also make sure we are not giving an inaccurate and unfair portrayal of another skater.

[KathySkates]

I don't think that there is anything wrong with not testing up so that one may have a chance to medal at Nationals. BUT I must have pity for the person that sees no point in competing without that chance. They are missing out on so much!
Also, my best learning experiences in skating have come from competitions where I was skating in a new level or against better skaters. (That Senior lady excluded! That was just ridiculous!)

[Moto Guzzi]

Originally posted by KathySkates
I don't think that there is anything wrong with not testing up so that one may have a chance to medal at Nationals. BUT I must have pity for the person that sees no point in competing without that chance. They are missing out on so much!


KathySkates--I myself have never heard this skater say that she saw no point in competing without the chance of winning a medal, and we've had several conversations on this subject. She mentioned several good reasons for not testing up, but that wasn't one of them. She enjoys competing. :)

[skaternum]

Originally posted by KathySkates
I don't think that there is anything wrong with not testing up so that one may have a chance to medal at Nationals.

I disagree, but maybe the source of the disagreement is the word "chance." Maybe you're putting more emphasis on the "chance" than I've seen. Is there a difference between someone who would be competitive for a medal and someone who is a shoe-in for a medal? Is that what makes the difference between sandbagging and being competitive?

I don't necessarily see it as a matter of being able to pass the next test. Almost everybody who makes it to the final round at AN can pass the next test up. It's also a matter of competitiveness, which is a very gray area. If I can pass the next test, am a shoe-in for a medal at the current level, and could be middle of the pack or better in the next level, but stay at the current level so I can get that $2.50 medal, I'm a sandbagger.

Having said that, I still think we should be careful about labeling someone a sandbagger. I still haven't seen very many in my 4 or 5 years of competing in the adult stuff. It's very hard to tell what someone's internal motivations are. Like all ethical issues, we each must make our own decision.

[KathySkates]

Originally posted by Moto Guzzi
KathySkates--I myself have never heard this skater say that she saw no point in competing without the chance of winning a medal, and we've had several conversations on this subject. She mentioned several good reasons for not testing up, but that wasn't one of them. She enjoys competing. :)

Let me clarify for a bit! As I do not know the lady in question, I am speaking generally.
When I first began to compete, I won almost every time. Boy was it fun! Who wouldn't love competing under those circumstances?! Later on due to several factors ( skating a higher level, age, better competitors, serious illness) I didn't win nearly as much. At first, I worried that I wouldn't like to compete anymore. Well, I still like it and even though I can't seem to get it together very often to compete much these days, I find I get more out of it and love skating itself just as much or more. Though I would be thrilled to win a competition, I don't seem to miss the medals that I don't win too much! The day after being beaten by some truly superior skaters, I go the rink early with a renewed sense of purpose!
I don't see anything wrong with wanting to win. Or trying to win. I think that once you win, or even medal at US adult nationals you should move on! (Unless you can't pass that test, of course!) IMHO, it is just greedy to stick around for more "jewlery".

Though I don't know for sure, there don't seem to be too many instances of this brand of "REAL" sandbagging.

[Mrs Redboots]

Something that happened yesterday prompts me to post a "counter" to this thread. There is a skater here who obviously has no idea of her ability, or lack of it. She insists on entering classes that are too difficult for her, and then minds quite dreadfully when she comes last. Yesterday, had she entered the lowest-level class, she would not have won, but might have finished in the top ten. But she wouldn't enter that class, but insisted on entering the class above, and the Open class, which demanded a Silver Samba. Of course, she finished last by a very long way in both classes, minded dreadfully, and didn't feel able to skate her free dance, but left the arena in tears.

The thing is, what do you say to her? She obviously has no idea of the standard at which she skates, or fails to. If she didn't mind coming last, that would be one thing, but she does mind. I don't know....

[flo]

Mrs. Redboots.
That's a good coaching issue. Her coach should speak with her about her golas, or her expectations.

Skating up can be great to see where you do or don't belong. I had skated bronze at one nationals, and then no freestyle for quite a while. I skated up to silver at one local event, did well and found I was competitive, then tested the silver.

[Mrs Redboots]

I don't even know whether this skater employs a coach - I have a feeling she doesn't, regularly. This is part of the problem.....

[blue111moon]

Once you've won at a level four or five years in a row, and know you can beat just about everybody else you know competing at that level, then it's time to move up.

To me, a 'sandbagger" is some who is clearly quite capable of passing the next level (and maybe the level above as well!) but who refuses to move up solely for the ego-boost they gain by coming in first all the time. And while there aren't a lot of them, there certainly are a few and they become quite well-known pretty quickly. I've also known a couple people who LIED about their test levels in order to compete at a level below their test level just to be certain of winning. That's just wrong.

My local interclub competitions have rules that state that the gold medalist in any event cannot compete at that level any more; they must test up to the next level before they can compete in another interclub competition. Adults and boys are exempted from the rule unless there are more than six skaters in the event. This is to prevent the same people from winning over and over. It works pretty well, although it's a pain to administrate.

[TashaKat]

Originally posted by Mrs Redboots
I don't even know whether this skater employs a coach - I have a feeling she doesn't, regularly. This is part of the problem.....

If this is the same lady that I know then, no, she doesn't have a regular coach and does, unfortunately, have no idea about her level of skating. It's a shame that she puts herself in this position as she could do much better is she skated down a level! A year or so ago she entered a kids class in one of the Opens and then argued with the judges when she was placed last .... it's a difficult call as she isn't open to any constructive 'criticism'.

Thanks for all the replies! I agree with most of what has been said here, the class that I was originally referring to, though was child beginners ..... my jumps are much better than my spins BUT (IMHO) there is NO WAY on earth that a Lutz belongs in a beginners class!

[Trif Fan]

Originally posted by kayskate
This sounds like me. My spins far outweigh my jumps. Although my singles are good, I do not have an axel and my 2sal is cheated.

I wonder if anyone has been called a sandbagger for spins.

Kay

I'm quite the reverse! I'm a natural jumper but my spins (until yesterday yeah!) were/are barely passable.

I'm currently at ISI FS2 and at my age level I'm usually against the book. The few times that I've actually had "competition" I've still medalled so that was quite an ego booster in that I was competitive against other adults and not receiving a "gift".

My coach and I are working at getting my spins consistent and to start working on FS3 level spins. I've decided to stay at FS2 for awhile because I want to be competitive at the next level and not embarass myself. Don't get me wrong: I love competing. It's cool winning but it means more when I've had competition. In fact my favorite trophy is a 2nd place for an interpretive program that had everyone cheering at the end. :) I've seen the same thing that Annabel has at adult competitions and don't want that happening to me.

[Black Sheep]

Originally posted by dcden
It never ceases to amaze me how skating competitions can reduce adults to childish behavior. (I don't have to remind some of you of a certain poster on FSWorld who blamed everyone who ranked above her of being elite skaters, using positions on their skating club board to influence judging, etc. to rank above her.) This is all supposed to be fun!

Yes, but how can it be fun when some people who win--like a certain poster I know on this board--just get so snobby they won't even give me the time of day! (I posted a post all about winning snobs on the Yahoo! board I am on--anyone else here a member of that?)

Honest, I am not an evil person, and I am tired of being a black sheep in this sport. Ever since AN'02, I've been working very hard not only on my skating skills, but on my attitude as well. I am hoping that this "new me" may clear up any grudges people may be holding against me.

Incidentallly, I have two great new programs for AN'03, and my coach says I am sure to do plenty better than I did last year.

[ahmskate]

Originally posted by Mrs Redboots
... There is a skater here who obviously has no idea of her ability, or lack of it. She insists on entering classes that are too difficult for her .... She obviously has no idea of the standard at which she skates, or fails to .... I don't know....
There has been some typically ignorant, opinionated and ill-informed comment about me earlier in this thread (thankyou Mrs Redboots), so I thought you might like to hear my dance coach's point of view.

I'd never have dared enter a competition if he didn't encourage me. He comes from Eastern Europe, where there are no tests, only competitions. His view is that competitions provide good experience. You have a goal to work towards and get experience of performing in public. I am naturally useless at competitions (never did them as a kid), get very nervous, and it is hell for me. But with every competition, I push my marks up one or two points and gain more confidence.

This was an Adult Dance competition, designed to encourage adult skating. I learnt as an adult but almost all the other competitors in my classes had skated and tested to a high level as children. I don't have the knee bend, extensions and body lean of a kid thirty years younger (!) and this will always keep my marks down. But I was actually very pleased with my showing. I spent several months working intensively on the dances (which I already knew) and did every dance with full speed and full pattern and all the elements (clean fast three-turns with check, Blues Choctaw on correct edges) which even some of the children can't do. My Silver Samba was poor for me as I got nervous, and I was disappointed, but after my Blues, two people I respect came up and complimented me on it "That was a good Blues" and "That was the best I have seen you skate".

And the reason that I left early was because I was tired out with nerves, and couldn't be bothered to wait five hours for my next class (competing is VERY time-wasting)

Alice

[Mazurka Girl]

I don't know your particular situation, but Mrs Redboots made some valid observations about skating/testing up. I regularly see skaters who have either decided to skate up, or else there must have been a star in the north when they passed their latest test. Many of them choose to compete, there is a lot of boasting & blustering about how they expect to win competitions, their perfect technique, yada yada yada. Since they have already set themselves up for failure, there is then much boo-hooing & mood swinging when they place poorly. These skaters have often been around for awhile & have had opportunity to measure the competitive standards. Whether it's due to unrealistic vs realistic expectations, poor judgement or something else, it can often create an unpleasant experience for both the skater & the other competitors.

[peachstatesk8er]

Originally posted by KathySkates
Adult skaters that continuously sandbag are among the most PATHETIC creatures on earth. I once skated up (to gold) in a local competition. I came in 2nd to a woman 10 years younger than I (that part was not against the rules) that had passed her STANDARD SENIOR FREESTYLE TEST!!! Forgive my screaming but it still boils my blood! This is someone who has medaled several times at adult nationals.
The competition application stated that the USFSA rulebook rules for each event were to be followed but that skaters were permitted to "skate up".
I know what it is like to not have someone to skate against. However, there were plenty of Senior skaters at that competition. Believe me, she would have held her own against them,
A friend of mine said that this particular skater is WELL KNOWN for doing that. I guess beating out the likes of me (10 years older, several test levels lower) for a $1.49 medal in a local competition was really important for her. Sad.
Anyway, I have been around the sport for awhile and can handle a few lumps. My concern is for the children and the newer adult that may just be screwing up their courage to compete for the first time or two.

Kathy, sounds like she should have been in Masters. That aside, adult skaters that are former competitive skaters are often accused of sandbagging. I think it's really more to do with the fact that due to them learning all the skills years ago and just brushing them off, they don't *look* like they should be in the adult comps. They're usually more fluid, less choppy, and not as timid. (I'm not knocking adult skaters in any way but we've all seen what I'm talking about. It's not anything they can necessarily help or overcome although time usually takes care of the worst of it. ) Former comp. skaters usually come back and make it back most of the way but not all. I for one will never do another triple and that's alright by me, lol. I'd probably be accused on sandbagging myself just because I'm comfortable with skating.

The woman you competed against no doubt needed to be in Masters, but if that level wasn't offered it would make more sense to compete at an adult level instead of with the standard seniors. I'm sure you didn't like the idea of competing against her any more than she would have liked competing against the seniors there. It's all relative. And it may appear that she's well known for doing what she did, but she may not be sandbagging, she may be simply skating her best and her best is, unfortunately for her competitors, really really good. Next time, though, you really need to see why she's not in there with the Masters. If that level is offered and she's not entering it, then there is a totally legit complaint.

[KathySkates]

Originally posted by peachstatesk8er

The woman you competed against no doubt needed to be in Masters, but if that level wasn't offered it would make more sense to compete at an adult level instead of with the standard seniors. I'm sure you didn't like the idea of competing against her any more than she would have liked competing against the seniors there. It's all relative. And it may appear that she's well known for doing what she did, but she may not be sandbagging, she may be simply skating her best and her best is, unfortunately for her competitors, really really good. Next time, though, you really need to see why she's not in there with the Masters. If that level is offered and she's not entering it, then there is a totally legit complaint.

I do sympathize witht the lack of competitions for Masters level skaters. I myself could not compete in interpretive because there was not one skater entered in my level or THE ONE ABOVE IT. I was not offered the option of skating against bronze ladies but had the offer been made, I would have declined it. Even though I am just one level above them, I feel it would not have been fair.
These rules are what we adults fought for! In the beginning I could have skated against a 65 year old beginner or an 18 year old Senior tester. So while I sympathize with the lack of competitions, I cannot agree that skating down is "kosher" as we say in NY.

[dcden]

Plus, what would be the value of skating down a level, other than to ensure you win the $1.49 medal? What do you learn from such an experience? The way I see it, if I skate down a level, then I'd be expected to win, which would put more pressure on me. If I indeed won, the reaction would be "well of course, he's a higher level", and if I lost, then that would be devastating. Better to skate up a level if you can. The pressure will be off, it's not as big a deal if you don't place high, and you get the experience of competing against higher level skaters.

[KathySkates]

I think that a possible solution for the Masters skater without competition is an exhibition. I used to help run a large local competition and this is what we used to do if we had a skater that couldn't otherwise be accomodated. It is not the same as a competition but at least the skater gets the opportunity to skate his/her program in front of an audience.

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by Mazurka Girl
I regularly see skaters who have either decided to skate up, or else there must have been a star in the north when they passed their latest test. Many of them choose to compete, there is a lot of boasting & blustering about how they expect to win competitions, their perfect technique, yada yada yada. Since they have already set themselves up for failure, there is then much boo-hooing & mood swinging when they place poorly. These skaters have often been around for awhile & have had opportunity to measure the competitive standards. Whether it's due to unrealistic vs realistic expectations, poor judgement or something else, it can often create an unpleasant experience for both the skater & the other competitors.

ITA Mazurka. I think a lot of skaters who do the boo-hooing and complaining really don't take a hard look at themselves and what they need to do to improve. They have an unrealistic view of how they perform, and think they deserve a higher placement

This is why I would highly recommend that anyone who competes to buy the video of their competition sometime and watch it. It's a great training tool. When I started competing, I regularly placed about 6th or 7th in a field of 10 or 11 ladies. I would always wonder why I didn't place better, because I FELT like I had skated so well, and had similar elements to other ladies who placed above me.

Than I watched the videos.

Then I saw that how I FELT on the ice...I felt fast, extended, like i had good posture, like I had good presentation...was NOT reality! How things FEEL and how things ARE are very different. So I took a long hard look at what I needed to do to improve, and what I needed to do to place higher. I started to fix my weaknesses, and now I place higher. And when I look at the video, I don't cringe..at least not as much as before!

that aside, adult skaters that are former competitive skaters are often accused of sandbagging.

peachstatesk8ter, it's interesting that you think this view. I find that many of the former competive skaters tend to be in Gold, Novice, Junior and Senior and have a pretty realisitic view of what they can and can't do, and how they place. With the exception of one incident at AN from I think 3 years ago, I've personally heard few complaints of sandbagging from the AN competitors from Gold up to Senior. I have heard more complaints of sandbagging from the Bronze-Silver levels. But I I think like many posters said earlier, I think most of those competitors are trying really hard to pass the tests and move up a level, but have trouble with certain elements that prevent them from passing. So unfortunately they get wrongfully acccused of sandbagging. Just my observations.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by manleywoman
But I I think like many posters said earlier, I think most of those competitors are trying really hard to pass the tests and move up a level, but have trouble with certain elements that prevent them from passing. So unfortunately they get wrongfully acccused of sandbagging. Just my observations. And it's easy enough to do - in dance, you sometimes see skaters who you think surely must be sandbagging when they skate the lowest-level class quite beautifully. Then you learn that, in fact, they have enormous trouble skating backwards, and are totally outclassed when they do enter the class above as well....