Adults - Vocals in Program Music

[LexiSk8]

Hello Everyone,

The Adult Skating Committee needs to know your thoughts on use of vocals in freeskate programs. Currently it is allowed as passed at the recent Governing Council.

My question to you is: Does vocal music belong in adult skating music programs or not?

Please comment "Yes" or No".

Happy to hear your additional thoughts on the subject, but a more urgent answer of yes or no is needed so the committee can present what the adult skating community would like to USFS.

Thanks!

~ Lexi

[FREESK8ER]

I think vocals should be used for interp only.
I love a nice freestyle program with instrumental music. It leaves more to the imagination. The lyrics would disrupt the flow.
It would be like MTV ruining songs for me after I saw the video.
Skating is a visual art.

[TreSk8sAZ]

NO

Bringing vocals (and by vocals I mean lyrics, not what was previously allowed) takes away from interp events and could create problems in the artistic marks of freeskates based on the interpretation of the music with lyrics versus someone without.

[Thin-Ice]

I prefer to leave vocals in the Interp. categories only. So put me in the "No Vocals" for technical programs camp.

[jazzpants]

I don't care either way.

In favor of it b/c of the variety of music. In the end, you still have to complete all those jumps and spins with the 1:50 timeframe. I am sick of trying to find THE perfect song and having to worry about cutting out vocals for those pieces that has smidgen of vocals or spoken words. And right now given my skating level, I really can't do much in the way of programs other than classical, some Spanish and slower new age pieces. It would take me YEARS before one would ever see me do an instrumental pop piece for FS b/c of the demands of the skating to do justice with the choreography for those. And no, symphonic "Paint It Black" does NOT count and I would not want to do something like that either!!! :twisted:

NOT in favor of it b/c of how the second mark would be scored and that someone with vocals would have an advantage over the those who do not. I actually would be more for no vocals PERIOD (i.e...the KIDS are also not allowed to have it too! I'm more concerned with hearing runthrus of HM, HSM and Disney throughout the summer months than hearing the adult skate to music with vocals!!! :twisted: :P :lol: If you are a kid reading this, I'm sorry!!! But hearing your runthru of the Lion King for the 4th time within an hour will drive any sane adult BATTY!!!)

[katz in boots]

No.
In our comps (I'm in Australia), vocals can only be used in artistic programs, not technical. It does limit what one can do, but I think it also limits the quirky, novelty sort of interpretations of music. I think it is good to learn to tell the story without the words telling it for you.

[Kat12]

LOL, I read the title quickly at first and thought "oh, we're talking about singing, THIS I know about!"

I guess I'm inclined to say no. In a perfect world, I'd say yes and skaters can say "bite me" to anyone who doesn't like their music, but in this imperfect world where it's far too easy for someone to get offended/pissed off about the lyrics, or for someone to be perhaps judged unfairly because those listening don't like the lyrics...I guess no vocals is better.

And, it does make it easier too in that there's no problem with "oh I really like this song but the vocals will be offensive/I like the music but don't like the words."

[pairman2]

No, leave vocals to interp or else the competition would turn into one big interp-fest.
(Thanks for asking!!!!!)

[Skate@Delaware]

It doesn't matter much to me but I voted to keep it restricted to certain events/categories. I skate ISI but choose to use instrumental-only for my skating. I've seen freestyle events that were somewhat distracting because of the choice of music (with vocals) used (which are allowed at ISI comps).

You would also have to police the vocals from time to time, as some feature very explicit vocals (I heard a comp piece at my rink and so did other people, luckily for the young lady the coach heard the vocals and changed the music).

For artistic or interp events, it's necessary for vocals; for others, not.

[RachelSk8er]

I don't care either way.

I don't think it will turn everything into a big interp-fest. An interp program is VERY different from a technical freestyle program, where the focus needs to be on getting in your jumps and spins, not spending all your time expressing the music or putting a character out on the ice.

I do not feel it gives anyone an unfair advantage, as some may have suggested. Some people are naturally good at picking music that is well suited for their skating style and ability. They're good at expressing music and putting on a performance despite the technical elements in their program, regardless of what they're skating to. Lyrics won't help these people. Others don't pick music that really suits them, or they just sort of go out and skate and don't really perform....lyrics are not going to put them at any sort of advantage. Others may get carried away with making a program too interp-ish and the technical elements that really matter in the whole package of a freestyle program may suffer.

I don't think picking music that is not appropriate is going to be a huge issue. People have to skate to this music in practice and typically on sessions where there are kids. Just like the discretion that should be used in picking interp music, if it's so bad that you can't play it on a session like this, maybe you should re-think skating to it. And since we're adults, age-appropriateness issues that I've seen in synchro won't be too much of a problem (I always cringed when I saw little juvenile, intermediate or novice teams come out and skate cutesy little programs to Chicago [musical, not the band]...even if the lyrics used weren't inappropriate, Chicago is not music children 14 and under should be skating to).

While I'm personally hesitant on doing a freestyle program with lyrics, at least for the foreseeable future (I keep programs for 2 yrs and had the new one halfway done between ANs and when this was voted on at GC), I think this leaves room for some music I've found that I really liked for skating but it either wasn't well-suited for interp, or I couldn't get a 1:40 cut of it that I liked. I also had a pice of music I LOVED with a little bit of faint whispering at one part, and it opens up more choices for me with regard to cutting that piece without having to edit that out. It also eliminates the gray areas of what constitutes lyrics and what does not--i.e. there was a masters skater this year whose music kept saying "cha-cha." (I know masters can't use lyrics, but this is just an example.) Is "cha-cha" lyrics, or is it considered "instrumental vocals?" What may be fine at one competition under one referee may lead to a deduction by another referee at a different competition. And from my experience competing interp and freestyle, and skating/coaching synchro, I find it much more challenging to pick and to CUT vocal music (particularly a song people are really familiar with) than instrumental.

Having been involved with synchro when rules regarding lyrics for the higher divisions have gone back and forth (went from jr/sr having lyrics, to no lyrics, then back to lyrics), and also training on sessions with a number of dance teams whose free dances allow lyrics, I think this has been for the better for these disciplines. It opens up more options/possibilities, helps differentiate one program from another and really made it more exciting. I think seeing what it would do with freestyle would be interesting.

I do see the valid concern that interp, particularly artistic in the adult category, may suffer. Masters won't be as much of a concern, some the freestyle skaters who compete freestyle--Alex, Amber, Amy, etc are generally high enough that they can't use lyrics in freestyle anyway, some are ice dancers who don't compete free, and gold skaters, and those of us silver or lower in masters by virtue of dance tests (such as Jen Martino, June Smith and myself) will still do interp because we like it. Regardless of category, it won't deter the people who do interp because it's another event they can do and they want to get their money's worth out of the trip. It won't deter those who want to do something completely off the wall that they can't do in a freestyle program. Or the people who flat out enjoy doing interp and prefer it over freestyle. It might actually force people to do better interps--you have a lot of people who just go out and do a freestyle program to music they like. Now that they can do that in freestyle, they may actually have to re-think the approach to interp.

[Clarice]

Whatever is decided, I personally will continue to use instrumental music for freestyles and confine vocals to interp. I will encourage my students to do the same.

[kayskate]

In general, I prefer skating to instrumental music.

Kay

[Skittl1321]

I think that allowing lyrics is a good thing. Currently picking music for a program is a HUGE pain. It is difficult to find non-lyric music that is an appropriate length and character for a low level skater, and it is even more difficult to find music that has lyrics with the lyrics removed. "Free" software doesn't always do a good job, and many adults (and low level children) have neither the time to learn these programs, nor the inclination to spend even more money to get professional quality music. I have been to MANY competitions where you get those "ghost" lyrics from a bad job at audible, and it's unfortunate. The skater just wants to be out there skating, and when they are in a rhinestone free practice dress, you know they cut their music for free because they are keeping costs down.

By allowing lyrical music, no one is forcing anyone to use it. Instrumental music is not banned. Those who prefer it still get that option. This merely opens another avenue for those who either don't prefer, or don't want to pay for that. And I think that adult skating really should be inclusive and do its best to get every adult the chance to be out there skating.

And a technical program skated to music with lyrics is not the same as an interpretive program. It is no different from expressing the instrumental music. An interp program should be much better planned than just a program with words. If people equate the two, maybe their interps need a bit more work?


I guess the last thing to think about is why would it be okay for kids but not adults? The things that are different in the adult program than the standard program tend to have a reason- moves tests are reordered for a reason, dance tests have different scores, etc. What would the reason be that adults don't get vocals? Because adults are traditionalists? Might as well require figures to be 60% of the score. It seems a silly place to break from the standard program. The adult program shouldn't exclude something just because most people prefer instrumental music. Well keep using it then.

[LexiSk8]

Thank you to whoever posted the poll at the top of the page!

[sk8er1964]

I'm in the no group. Keep the lyrics in interp. Then again, I wouldn't fall under the new rule anyway since I'm under IJS at AN.

[Ellyn]

In freestyle programs, I think the lyrics will distract from the music as music.

Save them for interp programs.

[Isk8NYC]

I think vocals help make the interpretive events different and fun. Just mho.

[RachelSk8er]

I guess the last thing to think about is why would it be okay for kids but not adults? The things that are different in the adult program than the standard program tend to have a reason- moves tests are reordered for a reason, dance tests have different scores, etc. What would the reason be that adults don't get vocals? Because adults are traditionalists? Might as well require figures to be 60% of the score. It seems a silly place to break from the standard program. The adult program shouldn't exclude something just because most people prefer instrumental music. Well keep using it then.

I think because (at least around here at USFS competitions) interp or, as they call them, "showcase" doesn't seem to be as popular for the kids as it is for the adults (only a handfull of the kids at my rink do it, and at most of our local competitions these events tend to be small compared to freestyle events, particularly at the higher levels). Plus they have different rules, such as props being allowed on the ice, that differentiate them more from a freestyle program to music with lyrics. It also seems pretty rare for a kid to do more of an artisitic program (for the most part, they don't have two categories like we do), what they do tends to fall more under light entertainment/comedy. I don't think the concern with adult skating and lyrics is having it infringe on the light entertainment/comedy category as much as it may on the artistic/dramatic.

I think, for the anti-lyrics people out there, if you don't like lyrics, don't use them.

Lexi, could we maybe go with a 2 yr trial period to see how it works? I don't think a year is good enough to really get an idea, and many of us do keep a program for more than one year. That way, there is a long enough time to see how it works out, and if people choose to go the lyrics route, they can keep the same program for two seasons before being forced to switch back to instrumental. I know it stinks having something like that and then having it taken away, but they've done it in other disciplines before and it wasn't that big of a deal (synchro did it to junior/senior in '94 because the ISU rules did not allow lyrics). You do run the risk of people not knowing the change if that happens, or having to throw together a new program at the last minute, but ultimately it's their responsibility to read the rulebook and, assuming it's printed in the competition announcements, to read that, too.

[Mel On Ice]

Keep it in interp.

[LexiSk8]

I think, for the anti-lyrics people out there, if you don't like lyrics, don't use them.

Lexi, could we maybe go with a 2 yr trial period to see how it works? I don't think a year is good enough to really get an idea, and many of us do keep a program for more than one year.

Great point. We are just trying to sort out the details for adult skaters for this year before we get to any permanent change.I very much appreciate the input!

[jskater49]

I'm not sure this is a great idea - I worry about bad taste in music, bad editing and lyrics distracting for the skating.

BUT I need a new program and I very well may use Brandi Carlile's "Downpour"

The good thing about it --there are a lot of songs with vocals (like "Downpour") I would love to skate to. The trouble with putting it in an artistic is that most of the time - those programs are just freestyles with vocals anyway. Now the onus is on people to really do something interesting in an interpretive. That can't just use the fact that it has lyrics to make it "artistic"

j

[daisies]

Is it possible to add the word "freeskate" to the poll question at the top of the page? Currently it says, "Does vocal music belong in adult skating music programs or not?" and I think Lexi's question is for freeskating events only. I'm just trying to avoid confusion since "Restricted to certain events" could mean events like Interp, or it could mean certain freeskating events (Gold and below, etc.). Sorry, just being the double Virgo that I am. :)

If anyone thinks this will make it more confusing, then just ignore me. ;)

Thanks!

[looplover]

I'm the contrarian, I voted yes :-/

There's a lot of music that would be lovely for a freeskate - for me personally, vocals can really improve my skating. Something about it just makes that little difference, helps me have better artistry. I feel like adults would (most anyway) have the sense not to use something inappropriate, but I also know I could be overly optimistic there?

[flo]

I'd like to see the use of lyrics as an available option. This way each skater can decide for them self and use lyrics if desired and don't if you prefer not to have lyrics. If I choose not to use lyrics, then having them available for use by other skaters will not make any difference to my skating.
As someone who has competed in fs and interp, they are two completely different events.

[jskater49]

.
As someone who has competed in fs and interp, they are two completely different events.

They may be but round these parts they are not judged that differently - most of them are just freestyles with fewer jumps and vocals and the person with the hardest jumps still wins.

I think having vocals with freestyle will make people think a little more creatively with their artistic programs. One can hope anyway.

j

[RachelSk8er]

Great point. We are just trying to sort out the details for adult skaters for this year before we get to any permanent change.I very much appreciate the input!

Hasn't the change become official for adults for next year though? If we're still sorting out and lyrics won't actually be allowed for next year, the USFS might want to make that clear NOW just so that any adults putting together a new program over the summer don't think "sweet! vocals!", jump on board with the new rule, only to find themselves scrambling weeks before they compete to throw together a new program because they found out that vocals won't be allowed after all. I know some people who were already thinking vocals for new programs.

[Isk8NYC]

Hasn't the change become official for adults for next year though? Thanks - I thought the same thing: "It's a done deal already." Maybe it's being interpreted by the Adult Committee?

[rlichtefeld]

The RFA from Governing Council this year is "vague" on adult events.

Rob

[Isk8NYC]

The RFA from Governing Council this year is "vague" on adult events.

The RFA was vague, but the "Important and/or Urgent Changes from 2009 Governing Council" document is very clear.

The only gray area I read is when an adult event is conducted under the IJS judging system because "up to and including the intermediate level" doesn't give a test level on the adult track.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/events/200809/governingcouncil/Important%20and-or%20Urgent%20Changes%20from%202009%20Governing%20 Council.pdf

Singles:
Effective immediately: for singles skaters, vocal music with lyrics is now permitted as follows:
o Short and free skate programs up to and including the intermediate level
o All events using the 6.0 system of judging
o All free skate tests
o All Basic Skills competitions

[RachelSk8er]

The RFA was vague, but the "Important and/or Urgent Changes from 2009 Governing Council" document is very clear.

The only gray area I read is when an adult event is conducted under the IJS judging system because "up to and including the intermediate level" doesn't give a test level on the adult track.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/events/200809/governingcouncil/Important%20and-or%20Urgent%20Changes%20from%202009%20Governing%20 Council.pdf

I think "up to and including intermediate" is clear for adults since after gold, there are no more adult tests and you go to intermediate. BUT the problem there is that intermediate and novice are typically lumped together for champ events, and sometimes it's even lumped with junior and senior as one category. And right now the only time we use IJS is nationals right now (and other smaller comps able to get it, like Peach).

If we're going the lyrics route, I think it either needs to be all levels for adults, or cut off lyrics at gold and then masters and above have to go without. That seems like it would be the most logical place.

[rlichtefeld]

The RFA was vague, but the "Important and/or Urgent Changes from 2009 Governing Council" document is very clear.

The only gray area I read is when an adult event is conducted under the IJS judging system because "up to and including the intermediate level" doesn't give a test level on the adult track.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/events/200809/governingcouncil/Important%20and-or%20Urgent%20Changes%20from%202009%20Governing%20 Council.pdf


But, here's the EXACT rule and words that was passed:
(from page 24 of http://usfsa.org/Content/200809%20Combined%20ROA.pdf )


130. APPROVED AS AMENDED - Submitted by: Pat St. Peter, Midwestern Vice President

Amend rule 3502(A), (page 252 Rulebook) to read as follows:

For singles and pairs short program and free skate, vocal music with lyrics is not permitted except as follows: for all short and free skate programs up to and including the intermediate level and for all events using the 6.0 system of judging, vocal music with lyrics is permitted.

This was declared urgent to go into effect at the close of the Governing Council.


I was not at Governing Council this year, so cannot comment on the discussion that took place, or how it could have been better worded.

I can understand where some people try to make Adult Gold FS and Intermediate FS equivalent, but they aren't. There is a crossover rule for taking tests, but Adult Gold has limits on the jumps that are not found in the Intermediate Short or Freestyle events in the rulebook.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Adult%20Singles%20WBP%20Chart.pdf
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200910SinglesFSElements.pdf

Rob - just my opinions, you mileage may vary.

[Isk8NYC]

There's also an earlier blurb in that document that says lyrics are okay for test programs.
The quote you gave says that 6.0 means that lyrics are okay, IJS means they're not allowed above intermediate.

The only questionable adult events are what Rachel pointed out with the Championship and local competitions.

Is that what you're trying to clarify with this discussion, or will the Adult Committee try to amend the rules for all Adult Track skaters?

I know that an earlier thread said that this amendment was a last-minute item, late in the meeting. Still, I wonder why it was declared "urgent" and had to be effected immediately? Was it to comply with new ISU rulings, as mentioned previously?

[doubletoe]

I don't think you can assume the adult levels through Gold were included in the "Intermediate and below" category, since there is an age limit in Intermediate that may have come into play when deciding to use Intermediate as the cutoff.

[RachelSk8er]

I don't think you can assume the adult levels through Gold were included in the "Intermediate and below" category, since there is an age limit in Intermediate that may have come into play when deciding to use Intermediate as the cutoff.

I belive ISU rules were what came into play (somewhat) in determining the cutoff. The ISU recognizes novice, junior and senior, and therefore ISU rules govern what the USFS can/can't do with regard to these divisions. Outside of these three levels recognized internationally, all countries' federations are free to do whatever the heck they want with regard to adding more levels, how they structure tests, etc. (And federations can determine what is done to get to these three levels.)

Someone correct me if that's wrong, I'm going off of what happened with synchro. When synchro has had to take away/add back lyrics, it was mainly because of initially becoming a sport recognized by the ISU in 1994 and adopting ISU rules, and then the change to allowing lyrics again came with a change in ISU rules (hence why it only impacted junior and senior, since at the time those were the only levels recognized...we could do what we want with the rest of our levels, US novice teams at the time weren't competing internationally, so any level novice and below plus collegiate, adult, masters, and open jr could use lyrics).

What are international rules with regard to lyrics in adult skating?

[rlichtefeld]

What are international rules with regard to lyrics in adult skating?

The only "modifications" to the normal ISU rules, for adults, is the ISU adult competition in Oberstdorff. This year's announcement is here:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-179747-196965-114896-0-file,00.pdf

It appears the assumption is not vocals, since they explicitly allow them for the Original Dance, Free Dance, Artistic and Synchro events.

Rob

[Petlover]

I personally like the idea of allowing vocals, but definitely see the advantages of instrumental music only for the technical program.

[flo]

Vocals would also offer some needed variety in the fs programs. They all look alike now.

[liz_on_ice]

I don't have a strong opinion either way. I skate ISI so I've had the freedom to choose vocals for my freeskate, but generally don't - it's harder because your choreography gets limited to expressing what the words are saying. Allowing vocals gives a wider choice of music, but I suspect we'll see plenty of people choosing instrumentals.

[LWalsh]

I vote yes to lyrics. Having more options is better. You can always choose to skate to instrumental pieces if you like.

[flo]

Yup. I prefer classical pieces, and I can see lovely programs to Puchini, the choir piece from Henry V, the a capella voices in Schindler's list, or Vocalise which was first written as a vocal exercise.

[Hannahclear]

My coach advised against using lyrics because the rule is very new. I was fine with that anyway.

[stacyf419]

Vocals would also offer some needed variety in the fs programs. They all look alike now.

They could immediately force variety by banning 'Phantom' from all adult events!! :twisted:

[flo]

Phantom, Diamonds are a girl's best friend, Jupiter from the planets, Rhapsody in Blue, Carmen.....

I like the idea of vocals as there are tons of vespers and morning prayers that would be quite nice. I'm not worried about adults picking inappropriate music as adults are already selecting vocal music, and it's not a major problem.

[fractals]

Please let me know if I am reading the GC document correctly - all FS tests (including adult and standard, not just standard) can have vocal music to them?

If for tests people can use vocal music, I would think that it'd be easier to also permit vocals in competition - if not for all levels, then at least for some levels. It would encourage testers to compete - why not make it easier for them by letting them use the same music? If it is a question about where the level cutoff should be, I would suggest a cutoff at the events where IJS is used vs. where IJS is not used at AN.

Permitting vocals gives people more choice. If you are allowed to choose vocals, that does not prevent you from being able to choose non-vocals. I don't understand why people are requesting a restriction on our freedom of choice?

There already exist differences between interp and FS. In many competitions, for interpretive / showcase you are allowed to use a prop, which is not allowed in FS - and the judging emphases for interp are different from those in FS. There are different limits to the jumps in interp and FS.

[vesperholly]

The ISU recognizes novice, junior and senior, and therefore ISU rules govern what the USFS can/can't do with regard to these divisions. Outside of these three levels recognized internationally, all countries' federations are free to do whatever the heck they want with regard to adding more levels, how they structure tests, etc. (And federations can determine what is done to get to these three levels.)
Technically, the ISU governs nothing that USFS does within its own structure. For example, ISU novice has a very restrictive age limit, but USFS novice does not - it's the first competitive level without an age limit. USFS may choose to align its rules with ISU rules, but they are not forced to do so.

:)

[RachelSk8er]

Technically, the ISU governs nothing that USFS does within its own structure. For example, ISU novice has a very restrictive age limit, but USFS novice does not - it's the first competitive level without an age limit. USFS may choose to align its rules with ISU rules, but they are not forced to do so.

:)

It's the same with synchro, we allow older skaters on our novice teams than the ISU does. That just means for international competition, anyone who qualifies to be sent by USFS has to be in compliance with ISU rules where they differ from USFS. I know those skaters, particularly in dance/free/pairs, are very few and far between. But what would it even mean for competing at a non-qualifying competition in Canada like a lot of skaters, particularly in the Great Lakes area, do?

[vesperholly]

I don't know what Canadian rules are on vocals in lower competitive levels, but it's worth researching. I live very close to the border and there is definitely some crossover competing. Not nearly as much as there used to be, though.

[techskater]

Phantom, Diamonds are a girl's best friend, Jupiter from the planets, Rhapsody in Blue, Carmen.....

Hey, I skated to Carmen and I didn't hear anyone complaining about it! :twisted: I used an electric guitar version by a European star, though, so no one had heard this take on it.

[flo]

techskater - then you gave the audience something different. I do get very tired of hearing the same music and seeing the same program. With the balanced program rules and IJS, the originality has suffered. So when you can be creative, as with the music, go for it.

[jazzpants]

They could immediately force variety by banning 'Phantom' from all adult events!! :twisted:
Then you would love to see the video of the Bronze Ladies III Group A FS qualifying event at AN this year. Out of the first 4 ladies, 3 had Phantom of the Opera!!! It was like "Battle of the Phantom." :lol: (Not attacking anyone, of course. Just found it amusing that this happened.)

I would like to throw in Nessum Dorma in there too for good measure!!! (My apologies to those of you that skated to it! It is a lovely piece... but there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing" too!!!)

[Debbie S]

Phantom, Diamonds are a girl's best friend, Jupiter from the planets, Rhapsody in Blue, Carmen.....Having skated to Rhapsody in Blue, I don't think it's overused. It's been skated to before, of course, but you're going to find that with almost any music people are skating to - b/c the music is skateable. I didn't see any other adult skater using Rhapsody during the year and a half I skated to it, and the only elite skaters that recently used it have been Katy Taylor (SP) several years ago and Evan Lysacek this season. Compare that to the number of programs to Turandot/Nessun Dorma, Tosca, Carmen, Legends of the Fall....

I've watched bits of the Bronze and Silver Ladies events on IN and I have yet to hear Rhapsody, but I have heard the other pieces listed above, and Phantom.

I didn't use Rhapsody b/c elite skater X used it, I wanted something jazzy (to be different from my previous program to classical) but not too fast (I used the slower selections, lol). I originally thought about the overture from "Crazy For You" but decided it was too fast, but then I started thinking about other Gershwin pieces, so...

I thought my choreo was about as original as could be for a 1:40 Bronze program with the required (for the test) jumps and spins.

[flo]

Hi Debbie - Rhapsody is a very skateable piece. I've just heard it at several events. I do expect to hear music repeated - they're popular for a reason. I'd just like to hear more variety. Also with music, I've always thought that if I'm going to pick a well known piece, I need to be aware that the audience/judges really know the music, and this can be a disadvantage. They will be really focused on the skating and seeing what I do with the music that's already running through their heads. They know when the strong sections are or the adagio, and such, so I think whatever you do has to be strong. For example, I skated to Moonlight Sonata, and I picked this because I saw one of the kids skating to it and the choreography was stunning - and it was a great cut. I asked her and her coach, and all were happy to share and teach me the program. It was a novice level program, and except for subbing singles for her doubles, I kept the choreography. It really worked for me.

A familiar piece can also really work for you in that the feeling and emotions of the program can be invoked with the first note. I took advantage of this with my "Friends" program for the 10th AN.

So - basically if you pick a well known piece, remember that it is well known. If you pick an overdone piece, remember that the judges and audience have seen a bizillion interpretations, so make it spot on.

[miraclegro]

Well, i guess i am out of the loop. I still thought vocals could only be used for Artistic.

My current freeskate program which i used 6 months ago and will continue to use has vocals that were used as an instrument, kind of like a gregorian chant but not exactly.

I don't see why anyone would want to change what was working so well in the first place. I think instrumental should be used for freeskate programs with the exception of the vocals being used as an instrument.

[Skittl1321]

I don't see why anyone would want to change what was working so well in the first place.

Because it was already changed at governing council (likely because they were tired and wanted to avoid an arguement, it seems). This discussion really relates more to the adult program changing BACK, (and thus being different than the standard track program).

I think there could be a bit of discussion about if it was "working so well in the first place".
I know many kids who don't compete because of the hassle of getting music, and as we've discussed the same music is used over and over again- even by the most elite skaters.

[Stormy]

I guess I don't get the argument that finding non vocal music is such a hassle. Is it really? There is tons and tons of music available....you just have to be willing to search beyond the Carmens, Swan Lakes, Phantoms, etc, etc, etc.

[Skittl1321]

And unless you have a really good library or a lot of money- how does one do that? Especially since you either need to have a way to cut the music, or the ability to find good music at the right length. I cut my own music, and I wouldn't use it for anything other than the smallest local competition- it's not good. But I don't have the money to have someone do it, so that's my only option. I spent way too much time seeking out music that would require minimum cutting. It has essentially put me off ever doing a program again. (This is for my Bronze test.)

The music I've used for show pieces has never been an issue- find a song the length of the program. I don't have the knowledge of instrumental music to do that easily.

[Ellyn]

Heh, I chose my current music in part because the track was just the right length for a bronze program and therefore didn't need cutting. (Number 10 on this album (http://www.amazon.com/Cocktail-Mix-Vol-Various-Artists/dp/B0000033PE), which I just happened to own for non-skating-related reasons)

These days you can listen to excerpts of a lot of stuff online, or in a store such as Barnes & Noble, before actually buying the CDs. So you'd still probably need to buy several promising CDs before deciding on just the right music for you, but that does cut down the expense considerably.

[flo]

I don't really find it a hassle to get music - it can be some work, but not horrible. And I don't think that was the motivating factor for the change. It's simply having another option and evolving. As for finding music, you really don't need a massive collection unless you really want one. As suggested you can do quite a it of sampling online. I also listen to classical music stations, and have called them when I needed help finding a piece. There's also a great resource in the "Adventures in Good Music" shows with Karl Hauss. He would do a variety of shows, and some with "themes", such as nature or bells or whatever. Also were some, "if you like this then listen to ........" Although it's not on the air now, the play lists are available.
There are also lots of people wiling to help here and offer suggestion for pieces. And it's not really expensive to cut your own. I've been doing mine since I started and the quality has been fine. When I told my first coach that I wanted to cut my own music, he said fine as long as he could not hear any of the cuts. If you're not comfortable cutting your music, then barter. I'll help.

[sk8lady]

I'd like to see the use of lyrics as an available option. This way each skater can decide for them self and use lyrics if desired and don't if you prefer not to have lyrics. If I choose not to use lyrics, then having them available for use by other skaters will not make any difference to my skating.
As someone who has competed in fs and interp, they are two completely different events.

I'm with flo. Using music with lyrics is not the only thing that differentiates interp from fs. The entire method of scoring is different, as is the ability to use props. If you use music that detracts from the performance, you get marked down. Choosing appropriate music, with or without lyrics, is part of the artistic decision a skater and a coach make when a program is being put together. And if people foolishly choose to use explicit lyrics, well, they already have that option in showcase and freestyle--I've never understood this to be a problem. It's hard to picture the coach who would think this was a good idea! ;)

[Ellyn]

In an interp program, the skating would showcase the interpretation of the music, possibly a theme that's focused on the lyrics.

In freestyle, the music should showcase the elements and the overall skating, including how the skating fits with the rhythm and phrasing.

So what would be some good songs with lyrics that would be appropriate for freestyle programs by enhancing the skating and not distract?

[flo]

I think music (with or without lyrics) can go either way as far as being a distraction. A couple of years ago a friend of mine in classical music was with me at nationals and commented that one disadvantage of many skaters was their selection of music. The main problem was the music being stronger (not always faster, but stronger) than the skater. Likewise if there's not enough in the music to keep interest, then the skating needs to be good enough to carry the program. I think some skaters have the talent to skate to anything - or nothing. I think G&G could have skated to one note and had the audience captivated.

So with or without vocals, I think anything skated without any artistry and connection to the music could be distracting. Be it interpretive or freestyle, interpreting the music is part of the program. If you pick lyrics, everyone watching will want to see the connection between your skating and the lyrics. Also, if anyone is concerned about distracting lyrics, then I'd suggest a piece that's not "directing" your choreography. For a strong skater I would like to see John Denver's Eagle and the Hawk, or the men's choir from Henry V. The song that Susan Boyle sang - I dream a dream from Le mis, would be perfect. All these pieces have some variation, build to a climax, resolve and do not direct every move.

[stacyf419]

Then you would love to see the video of the Bronze Ladies III Group A FS qualifying event at AN this year. Out of the first 4 ladies, 3 had Phantom of the Opera!!! It was like "Battle of the Phantom." :lol: (Not attacking anyone, of course. Just found it amusing that this happened.)

I would like to throw in Nessum Dorma in there too for good measure!!! (My apologies to those of you that skated to it! It is a lovely piece... but there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing" too!!!)

Those videos on IceNetwork are what brought my post on - I felt sorry for the skaters who had to skate to the same music (I think maybe right in a row? or it seemed that way!) and sorry for the judges who had to listen to it.

And I agree about Nessun Dorma, which I also think is lovely but overused.

[RachelSk8er]

And unless you have a really good library or a lot of money- how does one do that? Especially since you either need to have a way to cut the music, or the ability to find good music at the right length. I cut my own music, and I wouldn't use it for anything other than the smallest local competition- it's not good. But I don't have the money to have someone do it, so that's my only option. I spent way too much time seeking out music that would require minimum cutting. It has essentially put me off ever doing a program again. (This is for my Bronze test.)

The music I've used for show pieces has never been an issue- find a song the length of the program. I don't have the knowledge of instrumental music to do that easily.

It's SO much easier now to get and cut music than it used to be. With programs like iTunes (and Amazon's music service, etc) you can browse and listen to music and buy just the few songs you want/need (buy from Amazon though...some music editing software won't cut mp4s and that is what you get from iTunes...Amazon are mp3 format). Or there is always the public library. When I was a kid, I'd go to the public library with my portable CD player and just sit there for hours listening to music for program ideas, then take out what I wanted and cut them using my boom box and my pretty sweet pause/stop/record skillz.

There are free music editing programs that are not the most advanced, but can do what you need and give you a good cut (I use Audacity, people I know with Macs use Garage Band, which might come with Macs). If you need to pay someone, you don't need an expensive studio--ask around your rink. I know off the top of my head 2 people who cut music on the side for extra money and it's less than $30 for a program, and a bunch of tech-savvy teenagers who cut their own and would probably charge a around $20 to cut a program for someone else.

Or ask around to other skaters. If someone came up to me needing a 2:10 program and wanting to use my flamenco music from last year, I'd gladly had it (or the 1:40 bronze cut) over.

[rlichtefeld]

For music, that is already cut, ask your coach!

They usually have a library of music that has been cut for other students.

For a good inexpensive program to cut music on Windows, look at GoldWave. Their trial version stops working after X many operations. But, then you just save what you've done, get out of the program, and restart it.

Rob

[rlichtefeld]

Because it was already changed at governing council (likely because they were tired and wanted to avoid an arguement, it seems). This discussion really relates more to the adult program changing BACK, (and thus being different than the standard track program).


Not necessarily to changing BACK, but how to interpret what was passed and how that translates to the Adult levels. What was passed used the Intermediate Short and Long as the cut off. It says that above that can't use vocals, unless judged under 6.0. My guess (since I wasn't there) was that since the ISU has rules concerning Novice, Junior and Senior, they didn't want to mess with those levels.

The problem is what level is equivalent to Intermediate. Some say Gold, some say Masters. And, what do you do with Championship Pairs which includes Gold and Masters.

Rob

[flo]

Also, a benefit of Goldwave is that you can as Rob said really test it out before you purchase. I've cut music with everything from a razor blade to the digital programs, and am very happy with GoldWave.

[RoaringSkates]

I don't care one way or the other. Being able to use vocals would make it easier for skaters to find music, as most "known" music produced today has vocals.

However, my fear, with vocals, is inappropriate vocals. Swearing, misogynistic lyrics, hate-filled lyrics, etc. - how to police that? What is and is not appropriate? How can a skater tell what is and is not appropriate? What are the rules? How specific do those rules need to be? How are disputes settled? What if what's acceptable in one culture/region of the US is not acceptable in another culture/region of the US? Who says what's offensive? Heck, what *is* offensive?

I know skaters use vocal music now, in various disciplines. Are there already rules for such things? Do problems come up?

[mdvask8r]

Well you know, the beauty of being an adult skater is that we ARE all adults - capable and entitled to make our own decisions and form our own opinions. Why is it necessary to police everything about the music? Use your own best judgment - if it offends someone, well maybe you need to adjust your choice -- then again perhaps the offended need to adjust their level of tolerance or sense of humor . . .
Sensible rules are fine, but we don't want to cross the line into censorship, do we???

[Stormy]

Well you know, the beauty of being an adult skater is that we ARE all adults - capable and entitled to make our own decisions and form our own opinions. Why is it necessary to police everything about the music? Use your own best judgment - if it offends someone, well maybe you need to adjust your choice -- then again perhaps the offended need to adjust their level of tolerance or sense of humor . . .
Sensible rules are fine, but we don't want to cross the line into censorship, do we???

Here's the thing. With no vocals at all, no one has to worry about being offended or being the offender. Why cause all sorts of unnesessary worry and hassle? It's not the other skaters I'd be worried about offending either with questionable lyrics, it's the judges.

[Skittl1321]

But so many people are presenting the argument "vocals are for interp" - so it seems like this negates the arguement "vocals might offend". Since clearly there is no issue using vocal music in other segments of competitions. The issue of offensive lyrics is either a non-issue, or lyrics need to be taken out of that category too.

I'm thinking it's a non-issue. If lyrics are fine for dance, synchro, etc- the offensive lyrics being self-policed seems to be working fine. It would probably work fine for freestyle as well.

[mdvask8r]

I'm thinking it's a non-issue. If lyrics are fine for dance, synchro, etc- the offensive lyrics being self-policed seems to be working fine. It would probably work fine for freestyle as well.
Thank you. Could not agree more. Freedom of choice all around!!

[doubletoe]

And unless you have a really good library or a lot of money- how does one do that? Especially since you either need to have a way to cut the music, or the ability to find good music at the right length. I cut my own music, and I wouldn't use it for anything other than the smallest local competition- it's not good. But I don't have the money to have someone do it, so that's my only option. I spent way too much time seeking out music that would require minimum cutting. It has essentially put me off ever doing a program again. (This is for my Bronze test.)

The music I've used for show pieces has never been an issue- find a song the length of the program. I don't have the knowledge of instrumental music to do that easily.

I don't know what people charge where you live, but here in L.A. the going rate for a professional music edit is just $40. That's the same price as one private lesson.

[Skittl1321]

I don't know what people charge where you live, but here in L.A. the going rate for a professional music edit is just $40. That's the same price as one private lesson.

The quotes I've recieved around here have been similiar, but that's a lot of money to me (our cost of living, and thus my salary, is much lower. Of course my salary is 0 right now, but I'm applying this to when I had a job).

If my private lessons cost that much (similarly, when I had a job. I'm not taking lessons now), I would not be a skater.
The high end coaches are $30, and I definitely don't take from them.

[flo]

If anyone has a problem affording having music cut - just PM me.
Also in this economy, it would be great to set up a skating dress sale/rent/swap site, or a barter page. We have a wealth of resources here.