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Query
01-31-2009, 09:36 AM
Heated blades (for hockey)! Other possible improvements to blades and boots.

Figure skating is a very tradition minded sport. Boots and blades have been very slow to evolve.

I would love to see someone make boots and blades designed to meet modern capabilities. The result would be much lower weight, better performance, complete customization and perfect fit, leading to a completely comfortable fit, and fewer sores and injuries, perhaps while maintaining the traditional appearance that competitive skaters may be expected to maintain.

I've posted some ideas on these things here before. I'm trying again, with my latest variations, and will send the ideas on to manufacturing companies. Feel free to add your own.

BTW, I'm claiming no patent rights on any of the ideas here that are mine. I wish I were good enough at mechanical things to make blades and boots myself.

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A company called Thermablade is making electrically heated skate blades for hockey. They claim a small performance advantage, and one article cited 30 NHL players trying them out.

The blades are currently about $400 for replaceable blade + rechargeable battery + mount, but well within the price range of figure skaters.

It will be interesting to see if they try to move into the figure and speed skate blade business. I'm not sure how much of an advantage heated blades would offer to figure skaters of various disciplines. It's hard to guess.

There are other innovations in hockey blades and mounts that haven't come to the figure skating community, but should.

Although many figure skaters complain of cold feet, electrically heated boots and better insolated soles are still quite uncommon.

Hockey boots have much lighter weight mounts, and plastic side pieces that reinforce the blade. Replaceable blade runners that fit into a more permanent mount are very common in hockey and speed, but the only such blades made for figure skating (Ultima Matrix) have been discontinued.

Speed blade mounts are much easier to adjust position and alignment than figure mounts.

Because of the tradition element, it is clear improved figure blades would have to look pretty much like normal blades. E.g., the plastic side pieces containing the reinforcing or heating elements, and possibly the mounts, might be coated with metallic paint. Maybe the outside of the mount would also have to be shaped like a traditional mount and heel.

It would be really nice if they added in the ability to custom specify precise length, thickness, taper, honing, rocker, hollow, sweet spot position and amount, and toe pick shape and size, using a computer controlled laser cutter (at least one manufacturer already uses laser cutters), so skaters could get and experiment with replaceable runners that met their exact desires. Even nicer if the replaceable runners were cheap enough for skaters to experiment a lot, and they were removable using bolts instead of rivets, to better switch between skating disciplines.

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I'm certain the high degree of tradition has also adversely affected boots.

Except for the extreme low end, most skaters still use leather boots styled to look somewhat like western-style ballroom dance boots or formal riding boots. Even some of the low end plastic boots are polished (painted) to look like traditional leather boots. (Though high end boots now contain an inner core of plastic, foam, or clay [?] which enhances stiffness, and helps mold the leather.)

This while most high end hockey and speed boots have moved on to the modern composite materials (e.g., plastic resin reinforced carbon fiber) developed to support the high performance marine and aerospace sectors - which offer better weight/strength ratios, and more controllable stiffness properties. I.E., carbon fiber is not itself particularly stiff - you control stiffness by controlling thickness, # of layers, and the type of resin, as well as by weaving or interleaving carbon fiber with S-glass, fiberglass, kevlar, and foam. They can also be shaped more precisely than it has been possible to sew and shape leather.

So a composite material figure boot could have variant properties at different parts of the boot, allowing ankle flexing while retaining the desired lateral resistance, in a much lighter package. In addition, they could be molded to be an extremely precise fit to a skater's feet, while the molding of leather boots is strongly limited by the physical properties of leather.

I personally think the right way to make a boot would be to use an elastic balloon-like material on the inside and outside. They would add in the holes, and hooks or cleats, possibly place a few layers carbon fiber cloth between the two balloon layers, add the polish and a stretchable liner. Then you put the skater's foot into the boot to stretch it to its exact shape, and pour liquid resin inside to the desired thickness in each part of the boot, to control stiffness and heel height. All while holding the foot into proper configuration and weight, to control the amount of arch, pronation and supination. The result would be a near-perfect-snug-fitting extremely comfortable boot that could be much lighter than the leather alternatives. Unlike leather boots, which sometimes require repeated stretches and/or heat molding to maintain their shape, at least for people who require major boot stretches ("punches"), the result would be fairly stable. If a cast was used instead of the foot, a higher temperature meltable resin could be used, and the boot remolded (with more resin) as the skater's feet grew or the need for stiffness and heel height evolved, at least up to a point. The boots could come as a kit - you put your feet or a cast in, and add and mold the resin. You could hire a bootfitter or podiatrist to help, if desired.

Jam-cleats (i.e., plastic or metal pieces between which the laces are pulled and jammed into place) instead of normal lace holes and hooks would deal with the problem many kids and adults have lacing tightly, and provide short-term stiffness variation (e.g., less lateral resistance while ice dancing than while jumping).

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So what do people think? Any other ideas?

fsk8r
01-31-2009, 12:39 PM
Edea make a top end boot which is light weight and made out of some sort of fibreglass composite. However, for whatever reason figure skaters haven't switched to it in great numbers. The roller skaters apparently have (well according to the skate store I saw them in).

As for heated blades, given that the physics of skating seems to be debated (as to whether there's ice melting under blade pressure, etc), I'm uncertain as to what advantage a heated blade might have.

cazzie
01-31-2009, 12:55 PM
Those Edea do look great although they're not made for anybody with really narrow feet, skinny ankles etc.

We struggle with out daughter and I can't wait until the day that well fitting moulded boots are made which are affordable to put on a growing child.

looplover
01-31-2009, 01:16 PM
Yikes, heated blades...I wonder if those would really screw up the ice? I already dread the sunday public session ice after the UNC hockey games! 8O

Rusty Blades
01-31-2009, 01:45 PM
Boots are my biggest gripe, mainly because I can't get anything (even customs) to fit right.

As a designer in the engineering field I look at some of the other sports footware, with their modern techniques and materials, and wonder what is wrong with the figure skate boot makers that everybody is still stuck in the 1800's!

I am seriously toying with the idea of making my own fibreglass boots made to fit MY feet and looking like conventional boots. They would be light, warm, AND FIT!

vesperholly
01-31-2009, 02:19 PM
Don't you think that if a better alternative to "traditional" boots existed, it would already be in use? It's not like bootmakers are living in the Stone Age. Just because something is "traditional" doesn't mean it's bad.

sk8lady
01-31-2009, 02:43 PM
My recollection of the heated hockey blades story was that some of the players who tried them out liked them and some didn't. They did not try them out in games--they're illegal.
A lot of crossover innovations have been tried in the last few years since Nike bought out Bauer and Don Jackson. The current top of the line hockey skates from Nike-Bauer have at least 3 innovations drawn from figure skates, not including heat molding.
I haven't tried them out, but I've inspected Softec-type skates and they look to me to have drawn some ideas from hockey skates, or at least dance boots! Smaller toepicks and shorter heel extensions mean that new skaters have some leeway to rock forwards and backwards without falling on their heads, but are less likely to catch a toepick or step on a heel extension.
I don't see how you could make skating boots into a kit, any more than you could make shoes from a kit. Custom boots are made with measurements, tracings, and specialized lasts (I think they're called that) prepared to match the skater's feet and custom shoes don't cost a whole lot less. Custom work like that is alway going to cost, no matter what the shoes or boots are made out of--custom sneakers don't cost a whole lot less than skating boots! If you're willing to make your own skating boots and dare to skate in them, go for it--it would be interesting to see how they came out! Unless this is all just talk.

Rusty Blades
01-31-2009, 08:21 PM
Don't you think that if a better alternative to "traditional" boots existed, it would already be in use? It's not like bootmakers are living in the Stone Age. Just because something is "traditional" doesn't mean it's bad.

It isn't the makers - it's the skaters who drive the market.

Makers have started to venture into "soft" boots and light weight boots for the recreational market but they know skaters and coaches are set on the traditional appearance.

Look at the lac of acceptance for Proflex - they are a great boot with lots of advantages - I haven't heard a single negative word from anybody who skates in them (after the adjustment period) but may who DON'T use them, trash them.

fsk8r
02-01-2009, 04:17 AM
It isn't the makers - it's the skaters who drive the market.

Makers have started to venture into "soft" boots and light weight boots for the recreational market but they know skaters and coaches are set on the traditional appearance.

Look at the lac of acceptance for Proflex - they are a great boot with lots of advantages - I haven't heard a single negative word from anybody who skates in them (after the adjustment period) but may who DON'T use them, trash them.


You got it in one when you said it's the skaters and coaches setting the market. The number of coaches I've heard who say that their pupil should be wearing this boot and blade is ridiculous. Coaches might know more about boots and blades than their pupils, but to suggest one make and model over another to me sounds like they're on commission! I don't mind coaches making suggestions as to what is suitable for the level but not dictating that nothing else is suitable because they can't keep up to date with new manufacturers and changes in boots and blades.
And their conservatism prevents many skaters trying the new technologies like the proflex and composite boots etc, so of course the new ideas don't take off.

Clarice
02-01-2009, 06:14 AM
One problem is cost. Boots and blades are so expensive, and there's no way to "test drive" the equipment before you buy. It feels a whole lot safer to go with something that has an established reputation than to take a risk with a new product.

Mel On Ice
02-01-2009, 08:44 AM
I don't see how heated blades would be an improvement as they would be sticky on the ice, ruin the surface, and probably be prone to rusting.

Gravity-defying boots, now I'd pay money for those!

Mrs Redboots
02-01-2009, 10:10 AM
Heated blades, surely, would be a contradiction in terms - surely one of the purposes of one's warm-up is to allow one's blades to cool to nearer the temperature of the ice, so that one can skate more freely.

Rusty Blades
02-01-2009, 11:27 AM
Gravity-defying boots, now I'd pay money for those!

The weight of my boots isn't my biggest obstacle - it's the weight of the rest of me! But if I could get anti-gravity undies, now were talking LOL!

Sessy
02-01-2009, 11:47 AM
I'd like the ice to give when I fall on it, and then bounce back to help me back on my feet easily. Can we do that please? :lol:
Also, can't we come up with something like a MagLev system for practicing the rotational position in the air? Lol.

Sessy
02-01-2009, 11:48 AM
I don't see how heated blades would be an improvement as they would be sticky on the ice, ruin the surface, and probably be prone to rusting.

It's probably only something that benefits hockeyers with their need for quick direction changes.

Query
02-02-2009, 04:36 PM
Unfortunately, Softek and similar boots break down quickly, if you jump or do deep edges, because they are designed for beginners. So they aren't a good test.

I understand that Bauer once tried to incorporate hockey-style technology with the innovations suggested by people at the University of Delaware - but at the time, USFSA (and ISU?) regulated boots, and nixed the modern inovations.

Master bootmakers are master leather craftsmen who took decades to master their craft. Asking them to switch to composites is like asking a fine cabinet maker to switch from wood to plastic or particle board. It also allows mass production companies to compete and drive the price down. What I suggest leaves little room for master craftsman.

LWalsh
02-02-2009, 05:13 PM
Harlick has an option for battery powered heated insoles. My guess is only someone teaching or not moving much would really need those. A skater who is working hard doesn't get cold. I've never known anyone to try these out.

lwalsh

skaternum
02-02-2009, 05:24 PM
A skater who is working hard doesn't get cold.
Totally not true. I can be sweating like crazy and gasping for breath on the ice, and my feet will be so cold that I cannot feel them! Same thing with my hands. Some people just have crappy circulation in their extremities. :giveup: I've resorted to using chemical handwarmers in my boots before I put them on, then once I get them on, I tuck the chemical packet between the top of my boot (toes) and my OTB tights. The tights keep it in place. Before I figured out to do that in the winter, I was totally miserable on the ice. My toes and fingers would literally ache because they were so cold.

sk8lady
02-02-2009, 05:29 PM
Right on!!! I was just diagnosed with Reynaud's syndrome--as soon as I get cold all the heat in my body rushes away from my extremities and into the core of my body--so I can be sweating and stripping off outer layers and when I get off the ice my toes are purple from the cold. I didn't know Harlick did heated insoles though, I will dash instantly to their website!

sk8lady
02-02-2009, 05:32 PM
P.S. OUCH! $200!!! Made of solid gold or what????

blue111moon
02-03-2009, 08:52 AM
I'd like the heated insoles myself. I shouldn't think it would be that difficult to conjure up - something microwavble that could hold the heat would be perfect.

I'd also like some kind of adjustable padding inside. My feet seem to change shape with the weather, especially since my ankle reconstruction; it would be nice to have the skate lining adjust to the different bumps without having to have them punched out permanently.

I have a pair of shoes from Germany that have a footbed that adjusts itself every time you put them on. Sort of like the Tempurpedic mattresses, I think, only firmer. :) Surely the skate manufacturers could come up with something similar?

Stormy
02-03-2009, 10:59 AM
I've resorted to using chemical handwarmers in my boots before I put them on, then once I get them on, I tuck the chemical packet between the top of my boot (toes) and my OTB tights. The tights keep it in place. Before I figured out to do that in the winter, I was totally miserable on the ice. My toes and fingers would literally ache because they were so cold.


I am going to try that chemical pack between tights and boots for teaching! My feet still get really cold when I skate, but much moreso when I'm teaching. Thank you!!!

Rusty Blades
02-03-2009, 11:29 AM
I resorted to skate pre-warmers this winter (socks with uncooked white rice, heated in the microwave) and it works well - start out with toasty boots. Last week I also picked up Thinsulate skate covers and tried them this morning - they seem to help but that's based only on one session.

I too am one of those who can work up a sweat and still have blue fingers and toes!

Query
02-03-2009, 01:55 PM
I'd like the heated insoles myself. I shouldn't think it would be that difficult to conjure up - something microwavble that could hold the heat would be perfect.

I'd also like some kind of adjustable padding inside. My feet seem to change shape with the weather, especially since my ankle reconstruction; it would be nice to have the skate lining adjust to the different bumps without having to have them punched out permanently.

I have a pair of shoes from Germany that have a footbed that adjusts itself every time you put them on. Sort of like the Tempurpedic mattresses, I think, only firmer. :) Surely the skate manufacturers could come up with something similar?

Microwavable insoles are available for other purposes, and might be adaptable to yours. There are also multi-layer aluminized mylar insoles that insulate. I haven't tried either.

Someone brilliant just pointed out to me the hand driers many rink restrooms have are perfect for warming up boots just before you put them on (so are hair driers). (Be careful - if they get too warm, places where leather has been stretched may unstretch themselves, so the boot may fit less well.

BTW, boots that are too tight in some or all places (e.g., your toes) will make your feet colder. A good fit helps with that too, as you need a slightly less tight fit if the pressure is equal everywhere - except most people say it is better to have a little space around your toes.

If your feet change shape on a frequent basis (e.g., with time of day or cycle), I guess you could bring several insoles that you have adjusted to your requirements at various times.

You can easily buy foam insoles you could use at your corner drugstore, some with the same heat moldable foams they put in mattresses, mattress toppers and pillows. Or you could cut your own to custom. When I went back to the Klingbeil skating boot factory a number of years back, they placed that type of foam in between the layers of leather, and made me insoles out of them that didn't work out that well for me: they didn't really adjust enough to be comfortable, and didn't work out as good as applying athletic tape to incompressible insoles. The foam between the boot layers didn't last very long before it became compressed.

I think there is a reason compressible insoles aren't generally used: They would allow motion inside the boot, which reduces your ability to control blade placement, and at the levels of boot and lace tightness needed to retain that control, could create blisters. But no one says you can't try them.

Query
02-04-2009, 08:53 AM
Oops on that last post. I meant memory foam, not heat molded foam.

Also, in the original post which described the molding process, I should have mentioned the need to avoid squishing toes together, which leads to discomfort, reduced circulation and cold toes, and foot deformities. Common techniques used during the molding of any shoe (including current generation heat molded boots) include placing little cut foam pieces between the toes, wrapping tape around the sides and front of the toes, and possibly, a little tape over and under the toes, during the molding process.

And as with current generation leather boots, some people would prefer to mold with foam spacers in front of the upper part of the foot, to create room for forwards ankle flexion instead of reducing the forward flexibility.

When I discussed a kit, I did not mean everyone would want to make boots from scratch. Everything would be pre-sewed, with eyelets, hooks, and/or cleats installed, and pre-painted, using a measured size as the first approximation. The stretchable balloon-like fabric would then allow the boot to stretch to a perfect fit, and the pourable resin would stiffen the final shape, and allow the skater to adjust the amount of thickness (and in turn, stiffness) in whole and in different parts of the boot. As mentioned before, if desired, a boot fitter, podiatrist, or equivalent expert could check alignment and support during the molding process.

In other words, molding would be similar to current generation moldable leather boots, except that thick leather and plastic or foam are too inflexible and difficult to stretch to mold well, and current generation boots don't let you adjust stiffness. Plus, leather creases or gets soft if you heat mold it too often, and modern materials save weight.

If one could find a resin that melts at a temperature that wouldn't burn feet, one could pour the resin in as a powder, then microwave or otherwise heat the whole boot to mold and re-mold it.

Skate@Delaware
02-05-2009, 08:17 PM
Don't you think that if a better alternative to "traditional" boots existed, it would already be in use? It's not like bootmakers are living in the Stone Age. Just because something is "traditional" doesn't mean it's bad.
There are a lot of people that just want to keep the "traditional" look-whether it works or not.
You got it in one when you said it's the skaters and coaches setting the market. The number of coaches I've heard who say that their pupil should be wearing this boot and blade is ridiculous. Coaches might know more about boots and blades than their pupils, but to suggest one make and model over another to me sounds like they're on commission! I don't mind coaches making suggestions as to what is suitable for the level but not dictating that nothing else is suitable because they can't keep up to date with new manufacturers and changes in boots and blades.
And their conservatism prevents many skaters trying the new technologies like the proflex and composite boots etc, so of course the new ideas don't take off.
My old coach was ultra conservative and didn't like the proflex boots; she pushed one type (and ONLY one type) of blade as well-which didn't work for me at all.
I am going to try that chemical pack between tights and boots for teaching! My feet still get really cold when I skate, but much moreso when I'm teaching. Thank you!!!
I use those "toasty-toes" air-activated chemical heaters. They are adhesive inserts...they are great! Open up the pack, stick them on your insoles and instant heat! They turn a two-hour torture session into something more bearable!

Sessy
02-06-2009, 12:48 PM
Totally not true. I can be sweating like crazy and gasping for breath on the ice, and my feet will be so cold that I cannot feel them! Same thing with my hands. Some people just have crappy circulation in their extremities. :giveup: I've resorted to using chemical handwarmers in my boots before I put them on, then once I get them on, I tuck the chemical packet between the top of my boot (toes) and my OTB tights. The tights keep it in place. Before I figured out to do that in the winter, I was totally miserable on the ice. My toes and fingers would literally ache because they were so cold.

You know there are some herbal tea's and pills out there that supposedly cure women of their cold hands and feet. I've never tried them and I've no idea what the ill effects may be of those - I do know a shot of vodka will get you the same effect in re-distributing the blood from the core to the extremities! :twisted: - but if you have a very big problem with the cold you may want to look closer into that option.

Also not sure if this is an option for any of you but there are some massage creams with arnica and also in Russia there's a massage cream with chili pepper sold to combat frostbite. You'd need to use only tiny amounts because sweat makes their effect much stronger, but it could also be worth looking into.

I'd be more in favour of an ice pack for my feet after skating myself - they're usually very hot and very wet, making for lots of blisters.