Updated WBP

[Debbie S]

The updated WBP requirements for Bronze through Masters have been posted:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=313

An interesting thing I noticed - the WBP for Bronze and Silver singles now allow a spiral sequence to be counted as the step sequence. Before, the only step sequences listed were straight-line, circular, and serp. Spirals weren't listed in the step sequence requirements until Gold and Masters. Is this a typo, or did the rule actually change and will a spiral sequence count as the step sequence in Bronze and Silver? And if a skater does a spiral (1 edge) as a transition early in their program, and then a step sequence later, does that mean that the spiral gets counted as the step 'sequence' (which would be incomplete b/c the spiral wouldn't cover half the ice) and the actual steps would only be counted as transitions? I believe with Gold and Masters the past two years, whichever came first was the "step sequence", correct?

[RachelSk8er]

Last year silver and bronze also had the requirement as spiral OR step sequence.

As for what "counts" if you have more than one, since it's under 6.0 it isn't that big of a deal. My silver program has both a change of edge spiral that covers half the ice surface, and a step sequence that covers about 3/4 of the ice surface. Actually, I have another spiral at the end that probably hits half the surface, too. They can count what they want, I guess, although my step sequence, which is all rockers, counters, twizzles and loops, is a lot harder than a change of edge spiral. If we were IJS, we'd specifiy on our program sheets what would be counted and the other would just be a transition.

[doubletoe]

True, under 6.0, it's not a big deal, since they are looking at the program as a whole and not adding up points for specific elements. But in case you end up skating under IJS, the official rule is that if you have both a step sequence and spiral sequence, the first one you do is the one they will count. A spiral sequence is whenever you do more than one spiral position (fairly close together, without any listed elements between them). A spiral with change of edge and spiral with change of free leg position each count as two positions because a new position is created whenever you do a change of edge, position, direction or foot.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Last year silver and bronze also had the requirement as spiral OR step sequence.Not only last year, but at least since 2005 because I have been doing a spiral sequence since then per the rules.

[Morgail]

This might be a dumb question. When it says Max 5, that does mean 5 jumping passes, not 5 jumps, correct?

[NoVa Sk8r]

Yes, 5 passes. If you max this out, the most jumps in the program would be 9. Eg.:
Pass 1 = jump
Pass 2 = jump
PAss 3 = jump/jump
Pass 4 = jump/jump
Pass 5 = jump/jump/jump

[sk8er1964]

Was a combo jump a required element at Bronze before? That seems a bit odd to me to have it as a requirement.

[MusicSkateFan]

:twisted::twisted::twisted:

I hate that they keep watering down the Gold level! Pretty soon they won't allow any double jumps at all!

I think this was a bad decision IMHO
:roll::roll::roll:

[sk8er1964]

:twisted::twisted::twisted:

I hate that they keep watering down the Gold level! Pretty soon they won't allow any double jumps at all!

I think this was a bad decision IMHO
:roll::roll::roll:


Why? I think it is one of the smartest decisions that has been made in adult skating. The skill levels between gold and masters - especially in the ladies - was just too huge of a jump for people to make.

Previously, if you had a 2sal, 2 toe and 2loop, for instance, you would not be competitive at masters - yet you would probably be winning gold year after year after year. Your only option if you wanted to compete at the championship level would be to stay at gold. What's the challenge in that?

Now, those skaters have somewhere to move to that has a championship level attached where they will still be competitve and can grow their skating. Meanwhile, those still in gold will have an attainable place to move to as they gain more doubles - and those who cannot gain doubles due to age or other issues can still have a chance to be competitive in gold. They won't eliminate doubles altogether from gold, because that still differentiates it from silver.

It's a win, win, win, as I see it.

[manleywoman]

entire post

Exactly! ;)

[doubletoe]

:twisted::twisted::twisted:

I hate that they keep watering down the Gold level! Pretty soon they won't allow any double jumps at all!

Are you in Gold? How many doubles do you have, and why would it bother you to move up to Masters Intermediate/Novice?

[techskater]

skater1964, you took the words out of my fingers! :bow:

musicskatefan, do you know how many skaters move up from Gold to Masters and actually make Champ in the old Champ Masters level? Did you look at any data before making your statement?

[MusicSkateFan]

And when someone comes next year and lands clean 1a,2t combo and 1a, half loop,2sal combo in gold will those be banned as well?

What is the MISSION of adult skating? Is it to make EVERYONE a MASTERS skater?

Compare what an adult single skater who passes 8 tests(4moves, 4 freestyles) is allowed to do to a standard track skater who passes the same number of tests.

So we tell the adults after you have spent all that money and time on 8 tests you dont have the same ability to do what the standard track students can do. You have to take what at least 4 MORE standard tests.....People would be better off to take the standard track tests to begin with.


I think we are just promoting that the ADULT TRACK does not give an adult the skills to do more difficult elements.

So I guess this is written down somewhere?

[vesperholly]

What is the MISSION of adult skating? Is it to make EVERYONE a MASTERS skater?
The mission is to get adults to participate. The new level was to create a better transition from Championship Gold to Championship Masters. ChGold skaters aren't moving into ChMasters, or not competing at all, because of the leap in competitive skill. IMO, this division solves the problem perfectly. Why the vitriol?

[MusicSkateFan]

Where is that written down?

[doubletoe]

And when someone comes next year and lands clean 1a,2t combo and 1a, half loop,2sal combo in gold will those be banned as well?

What is the MISSION of adult skating? Is it to make EVERYONE a MASTERS skater?

Compare what an adult single skater who passes 8 tests (4moves, 4 freestyles) is allowed to do to a standard track skater who passes the same number of tests.

So we tell the adults after you have spent all that money and time on 8 tests you dont have the same ability to do what the standard track students can do. You have to take what at least 4 MORE standard tests.....People would be better off to take the standard track tests to begin with.

I think we are just promoting that the ADULT TRACK does not give an adult the skills to do more difficult elements.


The fact is, skaters at every level on the adult track already tend to do program elements that are much closer to their test level than the standard track skaters do. For example, the top Juvenile skaters at Jr. Nationals land one or two clean double axels, while the adult equivalent--Gold--are landing double salchows and only rarely a double toe or double loop (I invite you to look through all of the Gold IJS scoresheets from AN2008, for both the ladies and the men). This was already the case even before the rules were changed, so there are very few adult skaters who will actually find themselves limited by this. However, there are a number of skaters who will now have a chance to place decently if they move up one level, and that is something that is good for everyone.

[w.w.west]

Where is that written down?

In the RFA. Check the Combined Report of Action.

[Stormy]

JMHO, I was personally dissapointed the double loop got moved, since it was a consistent jump for me, albiet a little cheated. And I know I'll never be able to do a double toe. But the fact that the new levels create so many more opportunities for all adults to keep competing and challenging themselves far outweights that for me. I think it's a great thing.

MusicSkateFan, how would you like the Gold level to be, just out of curiosity?

[MusicSkateFan]

IMHO I think a better solution would be the number of double jumps and not the type. If someone were to do a double, double combo then that would limit any more doubles they could do. Jumps are not an entire program, but the skater should be able to choose what doubles they want to do.

I would think people would be more interested in limiting spins! Under COP certain spins are worth far more than a double loop! And you can get hurt trying to do difficult spins just as much as a double loop or double flip.

[RachelSk8er]

Was a combo jump a required element at Bronze before? That seems a bit odd to me to have it as a requirement.

It was last year. Can't speak for before that since I wasn't competing in freestyle but I imagine it has been for a long time.

Why does it seem a bit odd? In my group at ANs, most (if not all) of us had more than one combo. A combo (albeit only a waltz toe) is required to pass bronze free.

I think everyone will be happy after the level change has a year or two to sink in. With 3 champ events now (gold, masters int/novice and masters jr/sr), there will be more participation, more appropriate breakdown of levels, better flow from one level to the next for those moving up--not just the progression of jumps but also better progression of program time. Going from 2:40 to 3:40 was a huge change before, but 2:40 one season to 3:10 the next is much better. Some of those intermediate/novice skaters who are very good skaters but don't have the jumps or spin combos to be competitive with the junior/seniors have a place where they can place well and compete at their own level.

[sk8er1964]

Why does it seem a bit odd? In my group at ANs, most (if not all) of us had more than one combo. A combo (albeit only a waltz toe) is required to pass bronze free.


My bad. I was thinking that a combo didn't show up in the tests until Silver, and was perplexed as to why they'd have it in WBP when it isn't on the test. :oops:

[MusicSkateFan]

I don't think you can automatically say that the new divided Masters events are going to have more competitors.

So many things come into play for Adult Nats. Jobs, Families, time of year, location, injuries.

I think these factors come into play with the number of competitors first.

I had posted in a previous thread I beleive 11 or even more Men scratched from Adult Nats in just the Bronze and Silver Freestyle events. This had nothing to do with the event categories....it probably had to do with these other issues.

Creating a New event is not going to automatically create new competitors.

If your going to start DIVIDING everything...Are we going to have Pre-Silver and Pre-Gold events for Freestyle? There are various levels of ability and experience in the low levels as well!

I say..do what you can do but for god's sake do it fast and get off the ice!

[doubletoe]

If your going to start DIVIDING everything...Are we going to have Pre-Silver and Pre-Gold events for Freestyle? There are various levels of ability and experience in the low levels as well!


Masters skaters may all seem the same to you, but that category encompasses 4 levels: Intermediate, Novice, Junior and Senior. If you've ever watched a standard track competition, you've seen what a big difference that is. Having a Championship Masters competition that combined those 4 levels was the equivalent of having a combined Championship Adult competition for all skaters in Pre-Bronze, Bronze, Silver and Gold. Would you like that if you were a Pre-Bronze skater?

[jazzpants]

Masters skaters may all seem the same to you, but that category encompasses 4 levels: Intermediate, Novice, Junior and Senior. If you've ever watched a standard track competition, you've seen what a big difference that is. Having a Championship Masters competition that combined those 4 levels was the equivalent of having a combined Championship Adult competition for all skaters in Pre-Bronze, Bronze, Silver and Gold. Would you like that if you were a Pre-Bronze skater?
Throwing my nickel in... I for one am glad for the limitation. I do see within my lifetime to land my double sal, double toe and axel. But I really really REALLY doubt I would go behind that at my age. Jumps are hard on the body. (Case in point... me and my lower back have a quota on jumps before it starts hurting!!!) Having that limit on Gold ensures that an older skater like me would have a chance to compete at Champ Adult Gold. It would also ensure that the skaters who medal year after year after year has a place to grow into instead of freakin' out about moving up b/c they don't have their triples and are afraid of competing with the guys with the triples.

BTW: I sense from this change that the thing that separate the girls from the women (or the boy from the men) in the Gold level is gonna be the spins and the in-between skating!!! Should be quite interesting to watch.

MSF: I seriously doubt that the purpose of splitting up the groups is intended to be to increase the number of skaters. I think in the end it's money, work, family, etc. and I think in the end, this is something that is out of the control of USFSA. If you want new skaters... I suggested starting from the skaters that are JUST starting to skate now... 1) make it affordable, and 2) encourage more BEGINNING skaters to move up into the fold and for the existing ones to move up.

[patatty]

MSF: I seriously doubt that the purpose of splitting up the groups is intended to be to increase the number of skaters. I think in the end it's money, work, family, etc. and I think in the end, this is something that is out of the control of USFSA. If you want new skaters... I suggested starting from the skaters that are JUST starting to skate now... 1) make it affordable, and 2) encourage more BEGINNING skaters to move up into the fold and for the existing ones to move up.[/QUOTE]


I agree. I think the leap from beginning adult skater to entering the whole USFS adult track is somewhat intimidating. I know that I resisted it for a while, thinking that I just wanted to work on my skating and was really scared of the whole testing/competing thing. It took a lot of convincing for me to want to take the plunge and go the competitive route. I have a lot of time constraints and didn't think I could commit. (Of course, now I seem to schedule the entire rest of of my life around skating!) I also agree that the new levels might encourage skaters of all levels to move up. If some of the top Gold skaters move up to masters, then some of the stronger Silver skaters may feel more comfortable moving up to Gold, and so on. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Regarding the jump limitations, I'm a little on the fence on this one. I'm currently working on double toe loop, double salchow and double loop, and they are all progressing at about the same level (inconsistent and underrotated). If the only double I can really get is the loop, I'll be disappointed that I can't use it if/when I move up to Gold, but it will just make me work on the other ones even harder. At this point in my skating, landing doubles is the least of my concerns - the non-jumping parts need much more work anyway.

[patatty]

duplicate post

[pedonskates]

I am one of the skaters who may or may not benefit from the new masters division. I passed my intermediate FS when I was 19. At that point adult skating was just coming into play, and the rules were that you had to compete masters if you passed your novice FS. Barring the fact that I can't do a double double combination, I made a conscious decision to not take that test to be able to stay at the "gold" level. The rules changed a few years later and I have skated masters at adult competitions.

Since I am at the "low" level of masters, that is where I generally place at competitions. That is fine since I am really just trying to improve my own skating - goal to not get "Mrs. Dash" on my Axel in IJS!!! I do think there are people at the gold level who could compete with the champ masters people who have passed jr/sr FS, but I think it is daunting for some of them. I hope this new level will allow for the big "back-up" in some groups of gold and silver to be relieved.

I don't think this will make a ton of new adults come out of the woodwork to compete, but only time will tell. Someone else said that the adults seem to be skating much closer to the test level than kids do. I totally agree with that given that the juvenile kids are really doing all doubles to be competitive and there are none on that test. If the jump "restrictions" are used as guidelines, then the skaters should be on a more level playing field - at least in theory - even though others have pointed out that most of the high-placing gold skaters at AN didn't have any doubles in their programs. They did, however, have some awesome skating skills.

OK, back to lurking. I think the jet lag from coming back from Europe is making me ramble.....

Pedonskates

[Ellyn]

MSF: I seriously doubt that the purpose of splitting up the groups is intended to be to increase the number of skaters. I think in the end it's money, work, family, etc. and I think in the end, this is something that is out of the control of USFSA. If you want new skaters... I suggested starting from the skaters that are JUST starting to skate now... 1) make it affordable, and 2) encourage more BEGINNING skaters to move up into the fold and for the existing ones to move up.

I'm not sure what USFSA could do to 1) make it affordable for beginning skaters (or any skaters) to skate. How could they possibly control what rinks are charging for ice time or group lessons or what coaches charge for private lessons? Those are the largest expenses that any skater faces.

They might have some influence what it costs to enter a competition. But again, it's local clubs that set the entry fees and for most clubs that's a significant part of their income. On the other hand, for skaters coming from out of town the cost of entry fees is minimal compared to the costs for transportation, hotels, and bringing a coach if they do so.

So the focus would need to be more to 2) encourage beginning skaters to move up into the fold and for the existing ones to move up. This thread has already discussed one change that should encourage existing gold and silver skaters to move up.

So what would be good ways to encourage beginning skaters to join the USFSA and to enter competitions?

Maybe encourage clubs that include Basic Skills events in their club competitions or that hold Basic Skills competitions explicitly to include adult events in those competitions? And encourage the few adult club competitions that exist to offer Basic Skills or no-test events? And then make sure those opportunities get publicized to coaches who teach adult beginners . . . even at rinks where the group lessons use the ISI program?

What else?

[Thin-Ice]

I think there's a lack of continuity between LTS classes (no matter what format or level) and the first beyond-basics tests. It might help to have USFS/PSA encourage rinks/coaches to have their students take those first Pre-Pre or Pre-Bronze tests at the conclusion of classes. ISI does this at most rinks.

Once beginners get a taste of accomplishment by passing those tests, they often realize this is something they cando. Also many coaches still don't encourage most adult students to test.. so there is often a gap there. When I've gone to public sessions (not very often, I admit) I've talked with adults who are there with kids or to cool off and they have NO idea there is a complete adult testing/competition structure. They say things like "I wish I could perform, but I didn't skate as a kid, so it's too late now." And I launch into my whole spiel about how adults can skate/compete/test no matter what their age.

[MusicSkateFan]

I looked through the RFA's and did not see a specific reason given for the new WBP requirements(limitations). I do plan to get on the ball here and suggest that The Adult committee come up with a Mission Statement so that we will have a foundation for these frequent rule changes.

[RachelSk8er]

Will someone wishing to compete in masters int/novice be required to have intermediate free? I thought previously you could choose to compete masters int/novice if you wanted to as long as you passed your adult gold free.

Or if intermediate is required, will someone with gold free be able to take the intermediate free (provided they have the mif test)?

Just trying to plan ahead. I want to test my silver free soon, but if they're accepting standard tests now I'm contemplating just doing prelim and pre-juv at the next session instead (have pre-pre from when I was like 8 yrs old) in the event I ever am able to get up to intermediate. Wishful thinking, especially after the way I skated yesterday, but you never know. I'd rather just do the standard tests now than having to backtrack more later on and spend more $$ and take more time off work for testing. I know you need the standard MIF tests for the standard free tests, but that doesn't really apply in my situation since I'm testing junior soon.

[Debbie S]

Will someone wishing to compete in masters int/novice be required to have intermediate free? I thought previously you could choose to compete masters int/novice if you wanted to as long as you passed your adult gold free.

Or if intermediate is required, will someone with gold free be able to take the intermediate free (provided they have the mif test)? To compete at AN, you have to have passed the test for the level - no skating up. If you wanted to compete Masters at non-qual/club comps, then all you need is Gold FS.

I'm pretty sure you can take Intermediate FS after passing Gold FS (and Int MIF). I guess you could do it either way, since you have the standard track MIF tests - test standard track up to Int, or test adult track through Gold and then take Int. Just be careful if you're going to use your Silver program to test Pre-Juv b/c the elements are a little different.

[jskater49]

I'm not sure what USFSA could do to 1) make it affordable for beginning skaters (or any skaters) to skate. How could they possibly control what rinks are charging for ice time or group lessons or what coaches charge for private lessons? Those are the largest expenses that any skater faces.

They might have some influence what it costs to enter a competition. But again, it's local clubs that set the entry fees and for most clubs that's a significant part of their income. On the other hand, for skaters coming from out of town the cost of entry fees is minimal compared to the costs for transportation, hotels, and bringing a coach if they do so.



As a club competition chair, no it's not a significant part of our income, we make a little money but...ice is very expensive to buy for the competition and the price of flying in judges and putting them up isn't cheap either, so no there's not much you can do about competition prices.

j

[daisies]

I looked through the RFA's and did not see a specific reason given for the new WBP requirements(limitations). I do plan to get on the ball here and suggest that The Adult committee come up with a Mission Statement so that we will have a foundation for these frequent rule changes.

You make it sound as thought the Adult Skating Committee just makes changes on a whim -- and as though the ASC is the only one making frequent rule changes. Not so. The Competitions Committee, the Tests Committee, the Dance Committee, the Pairs Committee ... they all make frequent changes to adapt to the needs of their constituencies. That in itself is a mission statement, because you can't just remain static all the time.

BTW, the rationale for the Masters changes was included in the Request For Action presented to the Board of Directors before Governing Council. The Board then approved the changes. The Governing Council then approved the Board's action. So this didn't all occur in a vacuum. There were several layers of approval that the proposals had to go through. Sure, some people aren't going to like the changes, but the committee has to do what's best for the most people. As the saying goes, you can't please all of the people all of the time!

[MusicSkateFan]

I am not trying to make it sound that way. I know great thought goes into any change in rule or policy. I do think,however, a written mission statement would be helpful as a guide for everyone...not just the committee.

[RachelSk8er]

To compete at AN, you have to have passed the test for the level - no skating up. If you wanted to compete Masters at non-qual/club comps, then all you need is Gold FS.

I'm pretty sure you can take Intermediate FS after passing Gold FS (and Int MIF). I guess you could do it either way, since you have the standard track MIF tests - test standard track up to Int, or test adult track through Gold and then take Int. Just be careful if you're going to use your Silver program to test Pre-Juv b/c the elements are a little different.

If I tested pre-juv I'd go by what the rulebook says for that test. I couldn't use my normal silver program to test silver either, it would need watered down since it doesn't have the requirements (have to take out a combo spin and change it to a plain camel and change my loop loop to a loop, and swap my single lutz for a flip).

[doubletoe]

Will someone wishing to compete in masters int/novice be required to have intermediate free? I thought previously you could choose to compete masters int/novice if you wanted to as long as you passed your adult gold free.

Or if intermediate is required, will someone with gold free be able to take the intermediate free (provided they have the mif test)?

Just trying to plan ahead. I want to test my silver free soon, but if they're accepting standard tests now I'm contemplating just doing prelim and pre-juv at the next session instead (have pre-pre from when I was like 8 yrs old) in the event I ever am able to get up to intermediate. Wishful thinking, especially after the way I skated yesterday, but you never know. I'd rather just do the standard tests now than having to backtrack more later on and spend more $$ and take more time off work for testing. I know you need the standard MIF tests for the standard free tests, but that doesn't really apply in my situation since I'm testing junior soon.

There are two ways you can pass your Intermediate FS test, assuming you have already passed Intermediate MIF:
(1) Standard track: Take the Preliminary, Pre-Juvenile and Juvenile FS Tests, then take the Intermediate FS test.
(2) Adult track to standard track: Take the Adult Silver and Adult Gold FS tests, then take the Intermediate FS test (sounds like you're already at Bronze?)

[vesperholly]

Or if intermediate is required, will someone with gold free be able to take the intermediate free (provided they have the mif test)?
Yes.

I don't think adult FS tests cross over to the standard track in any other case, though - you can't take Silver FS instead of PreJuv FS, and then take Juv FS.

[Stormy]

I'm just doing both tracks. :) I passed Juvenile last summer, and am taking Gold on Monday. That's the end of testing FS for a while! But now it's great to know I have an option to test Intermediate and have a place to compete that's to my level!

[climbsk8]

Hey Stormy,

I agree with what you said earlier about the double loop. That's my only sort-of consistent double at the moment, and I won't be able to use it. On the other hand, I don't have to compete against people doing double-double combos, either. So it's a mixed bag.

I think the greatest concern, far more than WBP, is the IJS system for adults. It's turning skaters who are pretty conservative anyway (we don't want to get hurt) into skaters who won't try anything in a program at all. I'm impressed that skaters can win a Gold event without an axel or doubles, or without a combination spin, but is this reality really going to attract more people into the sport and keep them coming back? Is there a way to encourage adult skaters to improve the quality of their overall skating skills without discouraging them from doing more difficult jumps and spins?

[singerskates]

Hey Stormy,

I agree with what you said earlier about the double loop. That's my only sort-of consistent double at the moment, and I won't be able to use it. On the other hand, I don't have to compete against people doing double-double combos, either. So it's a mixed bag.

I think the greatest concern, far more than WBP, is the IJS system for adults. It's turning skaters who are pretty conservative anyway (we don't want to get hurt) into skaters who won't try anything in a program at all. I'm impressed that skaters can win a Gold event without an axel or doubles, or without a combination spin, but is this reality really going to attract more people into the sport and keep them coming back? Is there a way to encourage adult skaters to improve the quality of their overall skating skills without discouraging them from doing more difficult jumps and spins?


I don't know about IJS stopping adult skaters from moving to Champ Gold and beyond in the US. But here in Canada we adult skaters love CPC (which is the same as your US IJS) because we get to see how we are judged, what we can do well under pressure and what we need to fix. CPC isn't stopping adults from competing here in Canada. CPC is making us Canadian adult skaters excited to compete at Nationals. We actually wish that CPC were used for judging at all our adult competitions. Also, you get to see your track record; what your score was last, incentive to improve and beat your last personal best. So you don't win a medal everytime you compete. You can feel like a winner when you see that you've beaten your personal best from the time before.

I think if the USFSA has IJS for Championship Gold and Championship Masters, they should have IJS for all the levels that compete at the Adult National USFSA Championships. And besides, once you get to the ISU Adult Competition, you are marked with COP anyway. Why not let the Adult Bronze, Adult Silver and non-championship Adult Gold be marked with IJS so that they can have a chance at understanding what is needed for ISU competitions?

[Stormy]

My beef with using IJS for Adults is that they ONLY use it at Nationals. What's the point? They don't use it at local comps for Gold and Masters, they don't use it at Sectionals. You can get through Sectionals with cheats on doubles, but then of course you get dinged at Nationals. You can't see improvement on scores only being judged with that system one time.

There was a discussion a while back about why IJS isn't used at all the levels...there's a lot of reasons. Expense and time is a HUGE factor.

[doubletoe]

I think the greatest concern, far more than WBP, is the IJS system for adults. It's turning skaters who are pretty conservative anyway (we don't want to get hurt) into skaters who won't try anything in a program at all. I'm impressed that skaters can win a Gold event without an axel or doubles, or without a combination spin, but is this reality really going to attract more people into the sport and keep them coming back? Is there a way to encourage adult skaters to improve the quality of their overall skating skills without discouraging them from doing more difficult jumps and spins?

While it may be possible for someone to win a local Gold event or maybe the Gold V age class at AN without an axel, I don't think I've seen that happen in any other events at AN since they started using IJS. I also don't think IJS is necessarily making people more cautious; it's just discouraging them from attempting jumps that they can't fully rotate (and you still see underrotated doubles in Gold anyway).

Also, when you see Gold skaters being conservative, there are often reasons for that other than IJS. For example, the skater who won Gold III Ladies at AN this year only did an axel (no doubles) but that's not because of IJS; it's because double jumps aggravate an injury she has. She also didn't do any combination spins, but that was something that actually *hurt* her technical score under IJS. She only won because of her very high PCS score (a.k.a., presentation mark), which means the judges liked her overall skating and probably would have placed her first had the competition been judged on 6.0.

Also, why attempt a double jump that you know you have a 75% chance of under-rotating or falling on, whether it's IJS or 6.0? At least under IJS you get credit for fully rotating a jump even if the landing isn't perfect. For example, last year I had a double salchow in my program because I was landing it fully rotated, even though I was stepping out of it as soon as I landed. I kept it in because a double salchow with a step-out (-GOE) was still worth more than a cleanly landed axel. This year I was having trouble landing it fully rotated without falling, so it was in my best interest to just do an axel instead. I don't think that would have been any different under 6.0.

I agree that double toeloop attempts have dropped off sharply, and that is because last year, almost every double toeloop (and many singles) got downgraded for pre-rotation. So this year, a lot of Gold skaters have been busy cleaning up their double toe technique before putting that jump back in their programs. Yeah, it's a little weird not seeing double toes in Gold, but I also wouldn't want to be allowed to get away with a double toe that wouldn't count as a double toe. I think that would be condescending to us just because we're adults.

[techskater]

My beef with using IJS for Adults is that they ONLY use it at Nationals. What's the point? They don't use it at local comps for Gold and Masters, they don't use it at Sectionals. You can get through Sectionals with cheats on doubles, but then of course you get dinged at Nationals. You can't see improvement on scores only being judged with that system one time.

Grand Rapids Open is using IJS for Gold and Masters for the first time this year at the end of this month. It was requested by the competitors and everyone was mailed to make sure they were OK with it. It helps that the president of the club is an adult skater herself.

My home club competition is willing to use IJS if we are willing to turn out in larger numbers than 2 per group in September. The Greater Chicagoland Fall Invitational in Northbrook, IL.

A competition in Cincinnati offered IJS in March for Gold and Masters.

At Mids last year, critiques under IJS were offered.

I would say if you enter a local competition and you want to skate under IJS at Gold or Masters, ASK the organizer if they will do it. The worst thing that can happen is you will be told no.

[doubletoe]

I agree with Stormy that it's very unfortunate that all 3 sections can't afford to use IJS for scoring Adult Sectionals. I'm doing 4 local USFSA non-qualifying competitions this year, all within a 2-3 hour drive from home, and they are all using IJS for Adult Gold. 3 different clubs are hosting these 4 competitions.

[Debbie S]

I'm doing 4 local USFSA non-qualifying competitions this year, all within a 2-3 hour drive from home, and they are all using IJS for Adult Gold. And in my neck of the woods, the Cherry Blossom Invitational used IJS this year for adult events. The only adult level they ended up having (due to number of entrants) was Silver, and they used IJS even though Silver isn't judged with IJS at AN. Cherry Blossom is actually a 'high-test' comp, meaning Juv and up, which means all of the 'kid' levels get judged with IJS, so I guess this year they decided to use it for the adult events, too. Last year, the only adult level they ended up having was Bronze, and they did not use IJS (the only event to have 6.0) but perhaps they decided this year that it was easiest to just use IJS across the board.

Does anyone here who might be in the know, know whether they plan to use IJS for all adult events at Cherry Blossom going forward, or was using it this year for Silver actually a mistake? I'm considering entering next year (which would require me to get a program ;) ) b/c I'm kind of curious as to how I'd score in IJS (hopefully, my TES will not be negative :oops:) and I don't have a chance to be judged with IJS at AN, since I'm Bronze, and will likely be Bronze for life.

[sk8lady]

I'm not sure what USFSA could do to 1) make it affordable for beginning skaters (or any skaters) to skate. How could they possibly control what rinks are charging for ice time or group lessons or what coaches charge for private lessons? Those are the largest expenses that any skater faces.

They might have some influence what it costs to enter a competition. But again, it's local clubs that set the entry fees and for most clubs that's a significant part of their income. On the other hand, for skaters coming from out of town the cost of entry fees is minimal compared to the costs for transportation, hotels, and bringing a coach if they do so.

So the focus would need to be more to 2) encourage beginning skaters to move up into the fold and for the existing ones to move up. This thread has already discussed one change that should encourage existing gold and silver skaters to move up.

So what would be good ways to encourage beginning skaters to join the USFSA and to enter competitions?

Maybe encourage clubs that include Basic Skills events in their club competitions or that hold Basic Skills competitions explicitly to include adult events in those competitions? And encourage the few adult club competitions that exist to offer Basic Skills or no-test events? And then make sure those opportunities get publicized to coaches who teach adult beginners . . . even at rinks where the group lessons use the ISI program?

What else?

One way would be to publicize BEGINNING adult skaters more, by showing lower-level adult skaters in publicity documents, such as on USFS websites, posters, etc. the same way they do with little kids. Much of the adult publicity seems to be geared towards adults at a high level, which can be discouraging for lower-level adults. I can't tell you the number of my younger students' parents who tell me they would love to skate but just can't seem to bring themselves to do it for fear of embarrassing or injuring themselves.

Another way might be to change the levels around a little bit so there's not such a huge gap between Pre-Bronze and Bronze Freestyle. At Pre-Bronze, you do not need to have even ONE single jump--two half-revolution jumps will get you through the test (the last Pre-Bronze adult test I saw was passed with a half-flip and a waltz jump). At the Bronze level, you need a toe loop, a salchow, and another single, plus a combination jump of a waltz-toe plus scratch, sit, and backspins.

An in-between level, possibly with two spins other than a two foot spin, any two single jumps, plus a spiral sequence and footwork, might keep skaters who actually begin as adults going rather than getting discouraged. It takes a looooong time to learn this stuff when you start with a body that's already set in its ways! Add in the long recovery times for injuries that adults require (two of my adult skating friends have broken shoulders, wrists, what have you over the past year) and an adult-onset skater could easily be looking at doing the Silver Free in a walker!!!;)

[Stormy]

You guys are lucky your local comps will use IJS...none in the New England region do for adults! I'm planning to do the Cranberry Open in August, I'll defintiely ask if they'll use IJS for Gold...you're right, it can't hurt to ask!

[w.w.west]

It would be great if Adult Sectionals could use IJS, but as already said, expense is the issue. There is always more than meets the eye. Even if it is done by paper methond, there is expense of the ice time (because IJS takes longer) and mostly the expense of the officials. IJS requires a whole different panel....a tech specialist, controller and caller. Not every judge is qualified to be a caller, controller or specialist. So that means that the expense comes in to fly these people in and house them. Hopefully, there will be more and more people trained to be in these positions around the U.S. At present, a one/one and a half day adult comp. cannot afford that type of expense unless they are lucky enough to have those people in close proximity. There were IJS critiques at Adult Mids last year. Hopefully, all the adult sectionals will at least be able to offer that.

On the other side of the coin, there really is not a good reason that Adult
Gold and Masters can't be judged under IJS at an already existing competition that is offering IJS to other levels.

If anyone is interested, the Albert Viviani Comp. in Wyandotte, MI is offering IJS for Gold and Masters. The dates are September 7, 8, 9.

[techskater]

Unfortunately, Albert Viviani is the same weekend as Greater Chicagoland (my home club's comp), otherwise I'd come out.

[singerskates]

It would be great if Adult Sectionals could use IJS, but as already said, expense is the issue. There is always more than meets the eye. Even if it is done by paper methond, there is expense of the ice time (because IJS takes longer) and mostly the expense of the officials. IJS requires a whole different panel....a tech specialist, controller and caller. Not every judge is qualified to be a caller, controller or specialist. So that means that the expense comes in to fly these people in and house them. Hopefully, there will be more and more people trained to be in these positions around the U.S. At present, a one/one and a half day adult comp. cannot afford that type of expense unless they are lucky enough to have those people in close proximity. There were IJS critiques at Adult Mids last year. Hopefully, all the adult sectionals will at least be able to offer that.

On the other side of the coin, there really is not a good reason that Adult
Gold and Masters can't be judged under IJS at an already existing competition that is offering IJS to other levels.

If anyone is interested, the Albert Viviani Comp. in Wyandotte, MI is offering IJS for Gold and Masters. The dates are September 7, 8, 9.

If Adult Gold and Masters are judged with IJS, why not PreBronze to Silver too. You already have the technical panal for Adult Gold and Masters. Why not use them?

A matter a fact why not just leave 6.0 in the dust and go straight IJS for every event and competition?

It's not quite the same here in Canada. At Adult Canadians we have CPC (our IJS) but in all our other competitions we are marked with OBO marking instead, even though at some of the competitions in which we Canadian Adults compete CPC is being used for the StarSkaters and/or the reg. Competitive stream events. What I don't get is why there are two different set of judging panels? Wouldn't it be cheaper to just go with a CPC (in US IJS) panel than to have both CPC (in US IJS) and OBO (6.0 in US)?

There really is no need for an invitational competition to use computers to mark under CPC (IJS) for anything other than competitive Novice to Senior events. It just takes having the skaters all turn in planned program sheets or to compete planned program forms online prier to competition for freeskates, short programs, pairs, OD and Freedance. Then a paper copy of the planned programs can be given to the caller and judges (judges should have 10 empty boxes next to each element for marking; < or empty as called by caller, e if called wrong edge call by caller, or B for bonus if called by caller (I made that up), -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3). The math can be left for the accountants to do with paper marking. No planned program sheet or form is needed for interpretive programs as only the second mark PCS is marked.

Yup, I've experienced CPC twice at Adult Canadians and love it.

[vesperholly]

It would be great if Adult Sectionals could use IJS, but as already said, expense is the issue.
But what's the point of having IJS at ANs? It hardly seems worth it if most other competitions don't offer it, and especially the qualifier. I was under the impression that USFS was trying to get IJS at Sectionals, and just couldn't implement it yet.

[w.w.west]

If Adult Gold and Masters are judged with IJS, why not PreBronze to Silver too. You already have the technical panal for Adult Gold and Masters. Why not use them?

A matter a fact why not just leave 6.0 in the dust and go straight IJS for every event and competition?




It's a Scale of Values issue. If a single jump is cheated, it gets downgraded to nothing (as opposed to a cheated double getting downgraded to a single). That's one reason. At least what we are told in the meeting at AN I'm really not an expert on IJS. Others on this board are. Also, it is not to say that eventually all events wont be. But that is where we are right now.

[w.w.west]

But what's the point of having IJS at ANs? It hardly seems worth it if most other competitions don't offer it, and especially the qualifier. I was under the impression that USFS was trying to get IJS at Sectionals, and just couldn't implement it yet.


I agree, it does seem odd. I can tell you that that this is one of the things that will be discussed on the Adult Committee. As said in an earlier post, there is nothing to say that eventually all events won't be under IJS. I'm not talking in the immediate future....but eventually.

[vesperholly]

I agree, it does seem odd. I can tell you that that this is one of the things that will be discussed on the Adult Committee. As said in an earlier post, there is nothing to say that eventually all events won't be under IJS. I'm not talking in the immediate future....but eventually.
I agree with the other posters upthread who said if they are going to use IJS at ANs, they should really use it at Sectionals for those events. I'd rather see Gold/Masters have IJS at both Sectionals and ANs, than all levels have IJS only at ANs. Consistency is important, especially in qualifying events.

[jp1andOnly]

perhaps the powers that be should get together with Canada as we get values for cheated jumps and waltz jumps. Luckily SC wants IJS at all competitions sometime in the near future

It's a Scale of Values issue. If a single jump is cheated, it gets downgraded to nothing (as opposed to a cheated double getting downgraded to a single). That's one reason. At least what we are told in the meeting at AN I'm really not an expert on IJS. Others on this board are. Also, it is not to say that eventually all events wont be. But that is where we are right now.

[Stormy]

Well, I got a note back from the competiton chair and they are going to use IJS at the Cranberry Open for Gold and Masters. Yay!!

[singerskates]

It's a Scale of Values issue. If a single jump is cheated, it gets downgraded to nothing (as opposed to a cheated double getting downgraded to a single). That's one reason. At least what we are told in the meeting at AN I'm really not an expert on IJS. Others on this board are. Also, it is not to say that eventually all events wont be. But that is where we are right now.


w.w.west, have you checked out what Skate Canada does for Pre-Novice (Intermediate in US) and down with our CPC Scale of Values. Perhaps if the US would follow Skate Canada with that Scale of Values, then the USFSA would be able to use their IJS for everyone.

Click on Skate Canada StarSkate & PreNovice and under Scale of Values. (http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0IJVSPbsYBWHwI7L_A0Wp-fg7dg8pK9HxLEPynsMD0hD8evWvFaoAEuHTk4vG5UwS-IBaVDgzqCgj9_ynBAa/Skate_Canada_STARSkate_Calculation.pdf) The first few pages until you get to the Scale of Values don't really concern the Scale of Values. It isn't until the 6th page that you'll see the Scale of Values that Skate Canada uses.

[w.w.west]

w.w.west, have you checked out what Skate Canada does for Pre-Novice (Intermediate in US) and down with our CPC Scale of Values. Perhaps if the US would follow Skate Canada with that Scale of Values, then the USFSA would be able to use their IJS for everyone.

Click on Skate Canada StarSkate & PreNovice and under Scale of Values. (http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0IJVSPbsYBWHwI7L_A0Wp-fg7dg8pK9HxLEPynsMD0hD8evWvFaoAEuHTk4vG5UwS-IBaVDgzqCgj9_ynBAa/Skate_Canada_STARSkate_Calculation.pdf) The first few pages until you get to the Scale of Values don't really concern the Scale of Values. It isn't until the 6th page that you'll see the Scale of Values that Skate Canada uses.

That's great that Skate Canada is up on CPC/IJS for many levels. Maybe U.S. will follow behind. I agree it would be nice. Like I said before, I'm not an expert in IJS nor do I have any influence on it. Thanks for the link though.

[daisies]

Consistency is important, especially in qualifying events.
I totally agree, but it's going to take time. Remember, it's not just the adults who have had to deal with this issue.

In the 2005-06 season, all levels at standard-track Regionals were judged under 6.0. But then those who qualified for Sectionals had to be judged under IJS.

In the 2006-07 season, only Novice and above were judged under IJS at Regionals. Juvenile and Intermediate were still 6.0. But then those Juveniles and Intermediates who qualified for Junior Nationals had to be judged under IJS.

It wasn't till last year, the 2007-08 season, that all of the levels at standard-track Regionals were judged under IJS.

Hopefully that puts it into perspective.

[vesperholly]

It wasn't till last year, the 2007-08 season, that all of the levels at standard-track Regionals were judged under IJS.

Hopefully that puts it into perspective.
Of course any changes will take time to upgrade, and the standard track is understandably the focus of USFS. But implementing IJS at Regionals is a monumental task — four to five days of competition, hundreds of participants, five different levels, competitions going on simultaneously, etc. There are only three adult Sectionals, which require one day of IJS (assuming only Gold/Masters are IJS), and they rarely are the same weekend. Is expense and time truly a concern, or has it become the conventional wisdom?

My question is, does the adult committee even want to implement IJS at Sectionals? Is it simply a future option being discussed, or is there a timeframe — by the 2009/10 season, etc? IIRC, this was the second ANs with IJS — adults got it even before the full Regional competition got IJS. I'm asking honestly, is there a plan yet?

[Thin-Ice]

One reason 6.0 is still used is because that's how tests are judged. And test judges often are used to judge local competitions. Judging tests does not require knowing or having any practice on IJS.

That is changing though as more and more test judges are seeking regional and sectional appointments. They are learning IJS at judges schools (there are several being held around the country this year) -- but it's cheaper for clubs to use local judges who don't necessarily know IJS to judge than it is to keep shipping the same 250 (if it's even that many) judges everywhere in the country for local competitions.

Not to mention, not all of them are free every weekend or even want to travel from Philadelphia to Alaska or San Diego all the time.

[w.w.west]

There are only three adult Sectionals, which require one day of IJS (assuming only Gold/Masters are IJS), and they rarely are the same weekend. Is expense and time truly a concern, or has it become the conventional wisdom?

My question is, does the adult committee even want to implement IJS at Sectionals? Is it simply a future option being discussed, or is there a timeframe — by the 2009/10 season, etc? IIRC, this was the second ANs with IJS — adults got it even before the full Regional competition got IJS. I'm asking honestly, is there a plan yet?

Yes. It truly is time and expense...more expense. Regionals are week long events. Adult Sectionals are basically one day comps. They can be fairly profitable. However, if you have to pay for a techical panel's travel expenses, overnight accomodations, hospitality, it eats away at the profits quickly. Not to mention to these specialists want to fly around the country all the time (as mentioned in another post) We already have enough problems with getting clubs to bid on sectionals. Want sectionals to stay around??? Then GET YOUR CLUBS TO BID!!! Sorry, I digress. Back to original topic.

Sure, the adult committee wants IJS at sectionals. No, there is no plan yet. Will it be discussed this year, yes. Will it be implemented in the near future? Don't know. We need more and more judges/skaters getting trained as controllers and specialists that want to come to adult competitions.

As with most things, there are always more things than meets the eye when it comes to these things. Wish it were as easy as just setting a timeframe for it to be implemented, and it happens. Unfortunately, it is not.

[Stormy]

W.W.West is right. Of course the commitee wants IJS at Sectionals. They know we'd like to have it at Sectionals. But you have a much smaller amount of people to draw from for technical panels.....and probably even, a technical panel who wants to go for an adult competition. Super kudos to those that did ANs!! :bow: But this year, all 3 sectionals were on the same weekend, right? That makes it even tougher. And if you're a club with a limited amount of money to work with, again, you're eating up profits by bringing in IJS equipment and panels. I'm not 100% sure, but I bet any club that hosts Regionals gets a much bigger grant from USFS. Does a club hosting Sectionals get anything? I'm concerned myself at the lack of clubs who want Sectionals. I'd love to get my club to bid on it, but we're in a very small 1 sheet rink. It wouldn't work.

Just a note because of where the thread is heading.....Gail Sombati said at the commitee meeting at AN's that kvetching on message boards does no good (except let us vent to each other). WRITE TO THE COMMITEE. We have people who want to listen to us. And it's the best way to get a direct honest answer, quickly.

I was really bummed when I realized I'd missed being able to be nominated for the commitee this year....my club probably got the form and didn't think anything of it. But this coming year I really hope to be.

[w.w.west]

I'm not 100% sure, but I bet any club that hosts Regionals gets a much bigger grant from USFS. Does a club hosting Sectionals get anything?


Very true!!! I didn't event mention that. More things that are not apparent to the naked eye. Yes. Regionals currently get a bigger grant...not really sure of the amount, but it is/was over $10,000. However, this year many grants were cut in half. Eventually, there will be no grants (maybe as early as yearly as 2010). Adult Sectionals used to get $3,000, now they get $1,500. Still, they can still make money...between $5,000 and $8,000. That's without IJS.

I'm concerned myself at the lack of clubs who want Sectionals. I'd love to get my club to bid on it, but we're in a very small 1 sheet rink. It wouldn't work.

You only need one sheet. My club has hosted it twice, and we only have one sheet. Ann Arbor (not the Cube) only had one sheet this year. As long as it is at least 185 x 85, it is fine.


Just a note because of where the thread is heading.....Gail Sombati said at the commitee meeting at AN's that kvetching on message boards does no good (except let us vent to each other). WRITE TO THE COMMITEE. We have people who want to listen to us. And it's the best way to get a direct honest answer, quickly.

True again....it's almost as if I said it! ;) These boards are great for communication. However, rumors also start here as well as inappropriate accusations. Write to your appropriate Sectional Vice Chair or the Committee Chair. Contact info. is on usfigureskating.org under committees/adult committee. If someone truly wants something addressed, that is the way to go. It's one thing to post on boards, it is another thing to truly take the time and put your money where your mouth is and contact the appropriate people. And that doesn't just apply to the adult commitee...pretty much life. :D Okay, I'm getting a serious episode of de ja vu...better move on. :halo:


I was really bummed when I realized I'd missed being able to be nominated for the commitee this year....my club probably got the form and didn't think anything of it. But this coming year I really hope to be.

You can also contact your appropriate SVC and let them know your interested. You can also nominate yourself, you don't have to wait for your club to nominate you.

[Stormy]

My rink's ice is normal size with tons of seating, but the size of everything else is small. It has a small lobby with a few tables and chairs, and a couple of benches. There's no place to stretch or warm up really and it could probably hold 50 people max. I doubt USFS would even approve it to host a comp like Sectionals.

Nominations for the coming season are already done, though, right? I thought it was back in February. But I'll contact my SVC either way! :)

[w.w.west]

My rink's ice is normal size with tons of seating, but the size of everything else is small. It has a small lobby with a few tables and chairs, and a couple of benches. There's no place to stretch or warm up really and it could probably hold 50 people max. I doubt USFS would even approve it to host a comp like Sectionals.

Nominations for the coming season are already done, though, right? I thought it was back in February. But I'll contact my SVC either way! :)

You said it had tons of seating, but then say it holds 50 people max. You mean the lobby is small? That's really not an issue. The main things are:

Regulation rink size?
Some seating (remember that Adult Sectionals really doesn't "draw" a crowd...as much as we would like it to! Probably seating for 100 - 200 is fine.)
Do you have locker rooms/place for skaters to change/get ready?
Hospitality/food room for officials?

Feel free to PM me with any questions. I'll be glad to help.

Yes. Nominations are done for the upcoming year. But it doesn't hurt to contact your SVC now. But also do it again around Feb/March.

[Stormy]

Sorry to be confusing. :) The lobby is small. The rink is regulation size with lots of seating. It does have locker rooms and hospitality rooms. But like I said, there really isn't anyplace inside to warm up, and I can see pair teams having an issue with this, there's no place they could practice lifts. Anyways, sorry to threadjack...I'll PM you! :)

[doubletoe]

It would be great if Adult Sectionals could use IJS, but as already said, expense is the issue. There is always more than meets the eye. Even if it is done by paper methond, there is expense of the ice time (because IJS takes longer) and mostly the expense of the officials. IJS requires a whole different panel....a tech specialist, controller and caller. Not every judge is qualified to be a caller, controller or specialist. So that means that the expense comes in to fly these people in and house them. Hopefully, there will be more and more people trained to be in these positions around the U.S. At present, a one/one and a half day adult comp. cannot afford that type of expense unless they are lucky enough to have those people in close proximity. There were IJS critiques at Adult Mids last year. Hopefully, all the adult sectionals will at least be able to offer that.

So is it mostly one section (East Coast?) that has been having trouble getting the resources to use IJS at Adult Sectionals for Gold & Masters? Also, is the ability to provide IJS judging one of the criteria that will help decide which clubs hosts the three Adult Sectionals events for 2009? No need to answer if that is classified info., but I was just curious. . .

[w.w.west]

So is it mostly one section (East Coast?) that has been having trouble getting the resources to use IJS at Adult Sectionals for Gold & Masters? Also, is the ability to provide IJS judging one of the criteria that will help decide which clubs hosts the three Adult Sectionals events for 2009? No need to answer if that is classified info., but I was just curious. . .

I'm not sure I understand your questions. Are you saying the Pacific coast has more individuals qualified for IJS? And 2009 sectionals will still be judged under 6.0. Hopefully, we will hear very soon where sectionals will be. I have not been able to get an answer as to when to expect the annoucement.

[sk8er1964]

My rink's ice is normal size with tons of seating, but the size of everything else is small. It has a small lobby with a few tables and chairs, and a couple of benches. There's no place to stretch or warm up really and it could probably hold 50 people max. I doubt USFS would even approve it to host a comp like Sectionals.

Nominations for the coming season are already done, though, right? I thought it was back in February. But I'll contact my SVC either way! :)

Mids at Colorado Springs had basically zero lobby space. Yet they did a very nice job hosting Mids, and I, for one, had no problem with the lack of space. (I had other problems, but they were of my own making ;) ) They did a great job with a small facility (and excellent ice)

[MusicSkateFan]

From Wbp To Ijs>>>>>start A New Thread!

[doubletoe]

I'm not sure I understand your questions. Are you saying the Pacific coast has more individuals qualified for IJS? And 2009 sectionals will still be judged under 6.0. Hopefully, we will hear very soon where sectionals will be. I have not been able to get an answer as to when to expect the annoucement.

Sorry, I should have been a little clearer. It seems that, at least in So. Cal., the local competitions are already using IJS for the adults and would therefore be capable of using IJS for Pacific Coast Adult Sectionals. If that's the case, then I figured it must be the clubs in other parts of the country that don't have access to the software and/or officials needed to run an IJS Adult Sectionals competition. Is that understanding correct, or not quite?

Also, if Adult Sectionals bids have already been submitted before Governing Council each year, can't the IJS capability of each club be taken into account when choosing the host clubs, and couldn't that allow us to go to IJS sooner? I realize that the decision has already been made for 2009, but what are the criteria for deciding when to switch the Adult Sectionals over to IJS?

[manleywoman]

I realize that the decision has already been made for 2009, but what are the criteria for deciding when to switch the Adult Sectionals over to IJS?

I don't know the specific answer for this when decisions will be made, but it may be a long while before Adult Sectionals ever does. Think of how few qualifying events there are at Adult Sectionals: it's only one day of competition, and only 6 events at most (Gold Men/Ladies, Masters Men/Ladies, Pairs, Dance . . . though now adding Int/Nov does bring it to 8 events). That's IF there are even enough skaters/teams to hold an event in the first place! As we've seen many times Masters Men and sometimes Pairs or Dance don't have enough entrants.

So it's a bit much to have all the equipment flown out, tested, etc plus all the right Technical Specialists and Callers sent out as well just for an afternoon. If there's another competition that is several days long, that just happens to have adult events, that's another thing, and is why you'll find IJS at those events. But Adult Sectionals doesn't work that way.

Personally I'm of the opinion that Adult Sectionals should go away all-together, since it causes more problems then it solves. But that's another topic.

[daisies]

doubletoe, I'm not sure if this answers your questions directly, but I have a few points:

* It isn't really a question of "access" to officials. You can fly anyone anywhere, and you can fly the software anywhere. It's whether or not the officials want to come. You can't force them. Officials get an availibility form in the summer, where they can state their preferences for what qualifying competitions they want to judge. But this is done entirely separetely -- and usually after -- the Sectionals bid process.

* Unfortunately, there aren't a million clubs clamoring to host Sectionals. We have to take what we can get. I wish I could say, yes, let's take into account this special item or that special item, such as "IJS capability," but it's not that way. And again, every rink/club is IJS-capable, because the system can be sent anywhere. As long as the rink is regulation size, there's enough seating and changing space, and a judges room, the club is qualified to host.

* Again, the biggest issue is money. The bottom line. It is expensive to bring the extra officials in and to use the extra ice time necessary for IJS. A lot of standard-track competitions can afford it because they are longer competitions and thus bring in a lot more entry-fee money than Adult Sectionals does. But to bring them in for a 1 1/2- to two-day competition isn't financially feasible for a lot of clubs. Sure, you can say "bring in local officials," but this is Sectionals, and a certain number of officials should come from other regions of the section, for balance.

Regarding the lower levels....

* Before we can implement IJS at the lower levels, we need to come up with a separate scale of values and separate levels of difficulty. The standard-track is dealing with the same issue. It's very difficult to use IJS below Juvenile (and remember, Adult Gold is equivalent to Juvenile) because these levels can't meet a lot of the requirements for difficulty levels ... well, some can, but most shouldn't even be trying because they don't yet have the basics down. Standard track is currently considering separate values and levels of difficulty for the lower levels -- which IMO is a fabulous idea because it eases lower-level skaters into the system and prepares them for harder requirements later on -- and hopefully if/when they are established we can apply them to adults.

[doubletoe]

Manleywoman & Daisies, thanks for the explanation. That does make sense.