Show stops and turn-out

[Bill_S]

I've voted in the "how do you stop" poll that's now active, but it got me thinking again about show stops (a.k.a. tango stops, dance stops).

I can't do one.

Last year I witnessed a beginning-level skater attempt them, and within a few days, she had the show stop down pat. This young teenager also could do a spread-eagle glide without strain.

When I watched her perform the show stop, it was apparent that she had a LOT of turn-out in her stopping foot. Her toes were turned past a right angle to the path of travel. The tail of her stopping blade preceeded the toe pick substantially.

Here's my thesis: I now believe that substantial turn-out is essential for doing this stop. Because my turn-out is poor, chances are I'll never master this stop.

Even standing on dry ground and placing my right foot in front of my left, I can't get the right toes to go to 90 degrees - let alone past that.

If you have this stop in your skating arsenal, how would you rate your turn-out? Do your toes turn past 90 degrees?

[mintypoppet]

I was thinking about starting the very same thread!

I agree with your analysis; I can T-stop but can't show stop, and have 90 degrees of turn-out at most.

[Isk8NYC]

I only learned a tango stop last year. It's taken me a year to be able to do it consistently on one side only, but I don't trust myself to do it well enough to use it regularly. FWIW, I don't have great turnout - I can do a decent inside spreadeagle, but the Bauer and outside eagles are beyond me at this point.

Do you want some tips on learning the tango stop?

[Bill_S]

I don't have the modest turn-out for even inside spreadeagles. I'm seriously turn-out challenged. :roll:

If you have tips, I'd love to hear them. I would assume exercises to increase turn-out would also be beneficial.

[jazzpants]

On show stops... trust me! I have a horrible turn out (can't even do inside spread eagles... yet!!!) and if you can do a T-Stop, you have the turn out for a show stop! It's not just a matter of the turn out, but on which part of your body is on your weight transfer as you are stopping and which part of the foot you're scraping.

I wish I could explain the rest, but my show stops aren't that great, but they exists at least! :)

[Isk8NYC]

Here's my ten-step program for Tango stops. It worked for me, I hope it works for you. (NB: This is for a right-foot-stopping version. Switch the instructions if you want to do a left-foot stop.)


It's easier with slightly-dull blades. Trust me on this one. I think you said you like your blades sharp, so try this when you're due for a sharpening.
I had my coach teach me the basics for a few minutes. It helps to get a demo.
Start doing t-stops with the OUTSIDE ROCKER of your blade, not the middle/heel part. You have to bend your knees.
Move the t-stops up to the side of your foot. Find what arm/shoulder position works for you. (I like to have the same arm forward as the stopping foot.)
Using the wall, practice bringing the stopping foot down on a soft outside rocker and sliding the foot forward. (If you do this in a standstill, it strengthens the muscles well.)
Glide alongside the wall, keep your left hand on top/slightly behind for balance, and bring the free foot down on a shallow outside edge even with the ball of the other foot. Slide and stop.
Focus on closing your thighs and bending your gliding knee. This checks the hip so that you "skitter" the blade less. You have to shift your weight from the gliding leg to the stopping leg slowly when you first start practicing.
Let your free foot slide and scrape. When you do stop, HOLD the position.
Take a few strokes before you try the next stop. It doesn't have the same effect if you do stop/stop/stop... stroke/stop...stroke/stop works better.
Practice at least ten stops per session. I couldn't do them when I first started skating, so I would practice after I'd warm up and then make them the last few things I did before I left the ice at the end.Good luck!

[Bill_S]

Thanks for those tips!

I'll print that out and practice the steps next time I skate. (Wish there were some local ice available, I'd to it today!)

[skaternum]

And, by the way, turnout comes from your hips not your feet. And within the context of what you're born with, it is definitely something you can work on and improve some.

[Bill_S]

And within the context of what you're born with, it is definitely something you can work on and improve some.

I was extremely flexible as a teenager. Unfortunately if you don't use it, you lose it.

Exercises would certainly be worth it to restore some flexibility and turn-out.

[Sessy]

I can do it at slow speed, and I have very very closed hips. I have to get a lot of kneebend to do it and focus on, well, kind of like leading with the heel if that makes any sense... I'm confident I'll learn it though. It's like with the mohawks, closed hips don't make it impossible to learn something, just a little harder. On the bright side, I kind of suspect closed hips help on the in-air position on the jumps.

[Isk8NYC]

I was extremely flexible as a teenager. Unfortunately if you don't use it, you lose it.

Exercises would certainly be worth it to restore some flexibility and turn-out.
If you search for some of Skate@Delaware's posts, she had put up her arsenal of stretching exercises.
Some were to increase turnout, if I remember correctly.

[flo]

Interesting thoughts. I have decent turn out and can do tango stops, outside eagles, and outside bauers. I like the tango stops better than t-stops (which I abandoned after the test) because there's no chance of stepping on your front blade!

One suggestion I have, (which by the way is how I stopped for the start of my interp this year) is a one footed kind of side tango or almost side hockey stop. The stopping foot is in front and open and the free leg is to the back and side. If you do this with the free foot extended more to the front you can also go from a brief stop - cross free foot in front and go to back crossovers. It's also quite nice to do as a pair.

[looplover]

I'm glad you posted this - I can't do these AT ALL and I really want to. I can do the turnout, but the edge just launches me in the opposite direction!

[Isk8NYC]

I'm glad you posted this - I can't do these AT ALL and I really want to. I can do the turnout, but the edge just launches me in the opposite direction!
If you want to goof around with it on Friday, I'll hang with you before your lesson.

[doubletoe]

Here's my ten-step program for Tango stops. It worked for me, I hope it works for you. (NB: This is for a right-foot-stopping version. Switch the instructions if you want to do a left-foot stop.)


It's easier with slightly-dull blades. Trust me on this one. I think you said you like your blades sharp, so try this when you're due for a sharpening.
I had my coach teach me the basics for a few minutes. It helps to get a demo.
Start doing t-stops with the OUTSIDE ROCKER of your blade, not the middle/heel part. You have to bend your knees.
Move the t-stops up to the side of your foot. Find what arm/shoulder position works for you. (I like to have the same arm forward as the stopping foot.)
Using the wall, practice bringing the stopping foot down on a soft outside rocker and sliding the foot forward. (If you do this in a standstill, it strengthens the muscles well.)
Glide alongside the wall, keep your left hand on top/slightly behind for balance, and bring the free foot down on a shallow outside edge even with the ball of the other foot. Slide and stop.
Focus on closing your thighs and bending your gliding knee. This checks the hip so that you "skitter" the blade less. You have to shift your weight from the gliding leg to the stopping leg slowly when you first start practicing.
Let your free foot slide and scrape. When you do stop, HOLD the position.
Take a few strokes before you try the next stop. It doesn't have the same effect if you do stop/stop/stop... stroke/stop...stroke/stop works better.
Practice at least ten stops per session. I couldn't do them when I first started skating, so I would practice after I'd warm up and then make them the last few things I did before I left the ice at the end.Good luck!

Thanks for posting these tips! The tango stop is on my list of things to learn this year, so I'm saving these, too. ;)

[looplover]

If you want to goof around with it on Friday, I'll hang with you before your lesson.

Ooh! I do! I just got my skates sharpened though - eek

[doubletoe]

I was extremely flexible as a teenager. Unfortunately if you don't use it, you lose it.

Exercises would certainly be worth it to restore some flexibility and turn-out.


Two good stretches for turnout are the frog stretch and the ballet plie.

Frog stretch: Lie face down on the floor, a mat, or your bed. Bend your knees and put the soles of your feet together. Let the weight of your body gradually open up your hips so that your pelvis gets closer and closer to the floor. Don't worry, you don't need to be able to get your pelvis flat to the floor in order to get 180 degree turnout in a standing position (the girl in this picture has *very* open hips!)
http://gvctemp17.virtualclassroom.org/sports/dance/dance%20pics/stretch5.jpg


Plie: I like to do these on the ice against the boards after warming up a little. I start in a demi plie position, like the picture on the right--feet apart and turned out against the base of the boards, with my knees bent. Then I press my pelvis forward as I slowly straighten my legs half way. The inside of my knees stays pressed against the boards the entire time to make sure my knees are facing the same direction as my feet (very important so you don't damage your knees). After a few of these, I straighten my legs completely, with pelvis and inside of thighs pushed forward against the boards in outside spread eagle position. Then I'm ready to do spread eagles and Ina Bauers. http://media.wiley.com/assets/194/59/0-7645-2568-9_000300.jpg

[Skittl1321]

Just remember, if you do the exercise posted above (the one in the nice nude body suit :oops:) that the turn out HAS to come from the hips. I can force my knees and ankles into that position, but it is NOT correct, and it is BAD for you- it's extremely important turn out comes from the hips, not below them.

[doubletoe]

Just remember, if you do the exercise posted above (the one in the nice nude body suit :oops:) that the turn out HAS to come from the hips. I can force my knees and ankles into that position, but it is NOT correct, and it is BAD for you- it's extremely important turn out comes from the hips, not below them.

Yes, thank you! I was also concerned about the plie pictures being a little misleading (and, er, distracting, LOL). I definitely recommend doing these against the boards at the rink (not on the open floor), so you can keep pressing your pelvis and the insides of your knees against the boards as you slowly straighten your legs. It forces you to turn out from the hips instead of twisting your knees.

[Bill_S]

Thanks Doubletoe - a picture is worth a thousand words (or as Sessy once said, one word=one milli-picture).

I remember my college days when I signed up for a Judo phys-ed class, and of course SERIOUS stretching was a part of every lesson. We did something similar to the frog stretch you picture...except we had to sit on the floor, put our feet together in front of us, grab our ankles, push knees down to the floor with our elbows, and lean forward to touch our foreheads to our feet. Hold for a count of 15 seconds.

I just tried it here at home (38 years later) - OUCH! NO WAY!

I'll have to sneak up on some of these exercises!

[vesperholly]

I have terrible turnout (can't do a spread eagle or ina bauer to save my life), but I can do a tango stop on either foot. Left foot front is easier, as is left foot back for T-stops.

I am right handed and skate CCW, but I'm left-eye dominant so I have some crossover in directional preference.

[aussieskater]

http://media.wiley.com/assets/194/59/0-7645-2568-9_000300.jpg

Looking at the feet of the man (and I agree, the bodysuit is so wrong on so many levels :oops: ;) !!), it seems to me that his insoles are pressed forward and therefore his turnout is coming from the knees/feet and not from the hip? It seems also that his knees are somewhat forward of his hips and his feet (ie: if we could see him side-on, I'm guessing his feet are directly underneath his hips but his knees forward of both)?

[Skittl1321]

Looking at the feet of the man (and I agree, the bodysuit is so wrong on so many levels :oops: ;) !!), it seems to me that his insoles are pressed forward and therefore his turnout is coming from the knees/feet and not from the hip? It seems also that his knees are somewhat forward of his hips and his feet (ie: if we could see him side-on, I'm guessing his feet are directly underneath his hips but his knees forward of both)?

A small degree of turnout will come from your ankle/knee (I don't think it's possible not to) but you shouldn't force it from there. So for people without naturally flexible hips, they shouldn't fool themselves into thinking they've "got it" if it's all from the knees and ankles. They might be able to do the move, but it's at the expense of their body.

[Isk8NYC]

Somebody photoshop some pants on that man, lol.

[doubletoe]

Thanks Doubletoe - a picture is worth a thousand words (or as Sessy once said, one word=one milli-picture).

I remember my college days when I signed up for a Judo phys-ed class, and of course SERIOUS stretching was a part of every lesson. We did something similar to the frog stretch you picture...except we had to sit on the floor, put our feet together in front of us, grab our ankles, push knees down to the floor with our elbows, and lean forward to touch our foreheads to our feet. Hold for a count of 15 seconds.

I just tried it here at home (38 years later) - OUCH! NO WAY!

I'll have to sneak up on some of these exercises!

Yes, the stretch you're describing is one I used to help me limber up for spread eagles when I was first learning them, and I definitely recommend it. However, it is more of a groin stretch than a pure hip stretch. I found that it worked best when I sat with my back flush against a wall so I wouldn't round my back. I would rest my hands on my knees, and instead of pushing, I would just sit there for 5 minutes while I watched TV or something, and eventually my legs would just relax and I could gently push the knees down to the floor. I never did the forehead to the feet part, though. Hmm. . .

[dbny]

On show stops... trust me! I have a horrible turn out (can't even do inside spread eagles... yet!!!) and if you can do a T-Stop, you have the turn out for a show stop! It's not just a matter of the turn out, but on which part of your body is on your weight transfer as you are stopping and which part of the foot you're scraping.

ITA. I have very little turnout and can do decent tango stops. I do think it has to do with weight transfer. In a spread eagle, your weight is on both feet equally, which requires turnout. Not so in the T-stop and tango stop. Most of the weight is born by the skating foot, and just a tad applied with the stopping foot.

It's like with the mohawks, closed hips don't make it impossible to learn something, just a little harder. On the bright side, I kind of suspect closed hips help on the in-air position on the jumps.

Again, ITA. On the closed hip helping the in-air position, our skating director, who has closed hips, said something once that made me suddenly realized that skaters with a big wrap in their jumps must have very open hips. I asked if that was so, and she said it is. Very open hips make a tight (legs) in-air position more difficult and can lead to a wrap.

Ooh! I do! I just got my skates sharpened though - eek

The T-stop is the only one I can do on freshly sharpened blades, and the tango stop is also just barely possible. Both use the outside edge for stopping.

I taught myself the tango stop by doing it slowly as I approached the wall. I used the slide the foot from (stopping) heel to (skating) instep forward in front of skating foot method.

[ibreakhearts66]

I have a really good show stop (I can do it at any speed, no problem), and terrible turn-out. I mean terrible. So I don't think they're related.

That being said, show stops are kind of tricky at first. You have to be really careful to stop on the outside of your edge and not to catch the inside edge. If you do, splat doesn't even begin to describe the fall.

Eventually you can do the stop where you only have the back leg on the ice for a moment. The stop turns into a one-foot slide stop type thing (real descriptive, I know).

[SkatingOnClouds]

Adding my voice to those who say that good turnout is not a pre-requisite to show stops.

I taught myself these years ago because I struggled so much with regular t-stops. I was forever catching my blade wrong and tripping. I found I had more control and could do them more gradually than regular ones. Not only that, if I got it wrong and the front blade caught, the momentum of the following toe-pick pushed it forward again.;)

I never tried with my left foot in front until the other day, because my left hip has 45 degree turn out only, so I didn't think I could do them. But to my surprise, I could. With a bit of practise, I think they'd be as good as my other foot in front.

[Mrs Redboots]

Somebody photoshop some pants on that man, lol.
Oh, he's okay..... there are some people who wouldn't be, dressed like that, but he's not one of them!

I can't do a T-stop properly, never mind a show stop. I suppose I do a sort-of one-footed snowplough on a good day, but mostly two footed with my bum in the air. Sigh.

[Sessy]

what's ITA?

[Mrs Redboots]

what's ITA?
I Totally Agree!