Need feedback on Klingbeils

[miraclegro]

I think i have done more posts regarding my Klingbeils than anything else....

Okay here goes: I posted a brief blurb on the "beach/snow" thread about my frustrations with them, and DNBY said something brief, but more elaboration would be helpful.

Got my skates back from Klingbeil after being "tweaked" and even with the orthodics am still pronating some on rt. foot. Stuffed another small 1/2 "cookie" that is soft under the arch and it helped, but i am still not feeling quite where i should be. Klingbeil told me a long timeago if i move the blade without them moving it, my warranty on anything else to be fixed is void.

Has anyone experienced the frustration of not being as secure on the blade/boot in one foot over the other? I have very narrow heels, and my rt. foot seems to be the worst for pronating. Should i ever have gotten the Klingbeils? Should i go with another brand next time? I feel this issue is really holding me back from feeling secure with such things as the back-sit (getting secure on that outside edge), and other such things....

Any and all tips will be accepted. I wish i had a dealer of a good skate near by that i don't have to driveor fly to get something looked at. Via mail is always such a shot in the dark,but that's what i have been doing.

[phoenix]

I have Klingbeils & I have always had issues w/ the left blade. I've moved it multiple times & have major arch support built up on that side.

Screw what they say--make the skate work for you. You've paid a LOT of money for them!!! (btw, I was never told I couldn't move the blade & this is my second pair)

My 2 cents.....blunt but there it is.

[dbny]

Screw what they say--make the skate work for you. You've paid a LOT of money for them!!! (btw, I was never told I couldn't move the blade & this is my second pair)


ITA, and I never was told that either. One reason I went with Klingbeil is that I live near them, so getting adjustments is relatively easy for me (when compared with SP Teri or Harlick). Even so, I did have to go back two or three times with my last pair before they were perfect. Just when I was despairing of ever being rid of the pronation problem (L foot in old boots, R foot in new ones), everything settled in and all problems are gone. I'm pretty sure it was a bad sharpening on the R that was the last problem. If you look at Harlick's web site, they say that they cannot guarantee to fix all pronation problems, and I suspect that may be true for any boot maker. Nevertheless, if you have skated without pronation before, then I think you should be able to get there again.

[Isk8NYC]

DBNY might be right. After getting my insoles redone by Klingbeil recently, I found out that the prior sharpening had done a number on the edges and my right outside edge was significantly higher than the right inside edge. Combined with the different feel of the insole, the off-level blades were a major issue. The skate sharpener down here did a tremendous job in leveling the blade edges.

After the new insoles, my blades were a shade too far to the outside for me. I could tell because my outside edge on my right foot was "double tracking" meaning, the tracing showed that I wasn't on a clean outside edge. The inside edge was staying on the ice. Trying to hit the single outside edge was very difficult, more than it should have been. Also, when I skated on a flat, I could feel that my weight was more to the inside of my foot - my big toe side.

I recently moved my blade (all by myself) to the inside more and I've felt the difference. My backspins are more centered, edges are cleaner/deeper, and I can even do brackets again. It worked because my foot was now centered over the blade. I used the same slotted screw holes, just plugged and reset the round hole screws after I slid the blade over a bit.

I'm on my third pair since 1985. I always have adjustment problems - my feet are unusual, I guess. I wouldn't worry too much about the warranty and just get the blades adjusted so you can really try your skates and decide if you like them or not. And don't tell Klingbeil about the adjustment, there's no reason to bring it up. Just take good care of the skates so they don't get boot rot or anything. (I always go in person and I've never been told about adjustments voiding the warranty. I know you said he told you that, but I wouldn't take it too seriously.)

[Debbie S]

I always go in person and I've never been told about adjustments voiding the warranty. I know you said he told you that, but I wouldn't take it too seriously.When I had a local (and highly respected) fitter mount my blades on my Klingbeils 2 years ago, he showed me an official-looking letter from Klingbeil (signed by either Bill or Don) that was apparently sent to all they fitters (although my fitting was done in person at Klingbeil) that said if blades were not mounted exactly down the center, the warranty would be voided. With my last pair of skates (SP Teris), this fitter had mounted them to the inside (each was a bit differently placed and had to be moved a couple of times during the time I wore them). The fitter said that Klingbeil believes that they correct/compensate for pronation and similar issues in the design of the skate itself.

Since I didn't want to give up the warranty on them, I let the fitter mount them down the center. We went out to the rink (this shop is inside a rink) and he watched me skate (crossovers and edges, nothing major - lol) and said the mounting looked fine, and that if I had problems later on, he could always move them.

Then I read on this board that Klingbeil will in fact allow blades to be moved if they do it themselves. Sigh - since I don't live near NYC, going to Klingbeil for mounting issues isn't going to happen. I agree with Phoenix - they're your skates and you need them to fit, and if you've tried to work with the center mount and still have problems, then get the blade(s) moved.

[Isk8NYC]

I knew someone had seen that letter and the OP said she was told that directly. I was just pointing out that not everyone has been told about the warranty-voiding mountings.

I've been to the shop at least two dozen times over the years, love the bagels, coffee and dusty decor. Maybe because I've always started out bringing my blades to Klingbeil for the initial mounting, they never felt the need to mention it to me. As I said, I've always had problems with the blades being set too far to the outside and I don't notice them until I'm on the ice and the boots are broken in a bit.

[smelltheice]

first question..what is pronation?
I have had the same pair of Klingbeils for 5 years now but only skated on them for 3 (time off) but have never had a problem with them. I had a custom fit done as my left foot is a half size wider and longer than my right and my left leg is marginally longer by perhaps half an inch but you can't tell just to look at me but really feel it in skates. I tend to feel a problem with cramping in my boots when I lace them too tightly around the foot. I lace for comfort around the foot area but lace tighter around from the ankle and up. That definitely solved my problem there although I still feel less comfortable on my right foot than the left but that is partially me and part because my right foot needs a bit extra on the sole to level me out.
As regards to the blade adjustment, I am in the UK and my blades were fitted at my skate shop and I wasn't even aware that there was any warranty!!!

[skaternum]

miraclegro, you & I sound like long lost twins. My right foot is, and always has been, a mess. My heels are narrow, and not just at the fleshy part at the bottom, but particularly narrow as you approach the ankle. I pronate especially bad on that foot. My hips are uneven, which messes with my alignment all the way down to your foot. It's very frustrating.

I have a pair of Klingbeil that have been worked on several times (shipped each time, as I live far away from the shop). I have to say, it's NOT the Klingbeils that are causing the problem. I've had these issues with every boot I've ever used. In fact, I actually blame my last pair of Jacksons -- those high end ones that they were pushing so hard a few years back -- for contributing to a lot of my knee, hip, and back problems. They were poorly made, off balance, and slightly warped. Klingbeils have come closest to correcting, but they're not perfect.

I think I'm going to have my physical therapist and a local fitter/tech put their heads together, do a biomechanical exam on me, and see if they can come up with something new to try. It's SO frustrating!!

[climbsk8]

I'm one of the lucky ones ... I've had nothing but great experiences with Klingbeils, and I'm about to order my third identical pair.

I think Klingbeil (and all bootmakers) have to be cautious about folks in the rest of the world who fit people for skates, mount blades, and sharpen blades. There are just too many variables out there, and some people are less than qualified.

I can tell you from vast experience in my other sport - mountaineering - that no feet are the same, and there's often no quick fix or magic bullet when it comes to getting boots to fit, especially considering the amount of stress we're putting on our feet (and ankles, and knees, and hips, and ... you get the point.)

I would recommend to anyone looking for KB skates to go to the shop for a fitting ... they know how to do it right the first time, and they will check you for pronate/supinate issues while you're there.

[skaternum]

I would recommend to anyone looking for KB skates to go to the shop for a fitting ... they know how to do it right the first time, and they will check you for pronate/supinate issues while you're there.ITA. It was worth it to me to fly to NYC for both the fitting and the try-on/pickup. That's the ONLY chance I'd have had for getting a halfway decent fit. My only complaint is that "Old Man Klingbeil" (as we used to call him) was predisposed to putting adults into boots that were too soft. I had to have mine majorly reinforced. He didn't seem to grasp that the force of a 130 pound adult being tossed in a throw jump will trash a dainty little boot. :P

[Query]

I have a website I have posted elsewhere on fixing similar problems. In my own case I wasn't pronating - but I was constantly using muscles to prevent it, to the point that they hurt, because the bottom topography (especially the overall left-right slant) of the footbed didn't match that of my feet.

BTW "Pronating" refers to a left-right tilt performed at the ankle (and/or the arches, to some professionals) in which the right side of your left foot (or the left side of your right foot) comes down and the other side comes up. "Supinating" is the opposite. To some professionals (even doctors can't agree), "pronation" also involves a inwards or outwards rotation (I forget which), and a motion in which the toe points down, all motions around the ankle joint region, relative to the orientation of the lower leg. To some medical people, the words only apply when the motion creates an injury or other problems; others use "excess pronation" or "excess supination". To some, the words can apply to motions within almost any part of the lower leg, ankle and foot. I think pronation is supposed to be encouraged by high arches, long ligaments, or a foot that curves horizontally outwards (?), together with assymetric arch collapse.

Most normal walking and running begins with supination, changing mid-stride to pronation. The rock over generates much of the energy needed to drive you forwards. Skating coaches disagree on how much and whether the same should occur while skating.

Don Klingbeil says I twisted one boot by offsetting the blade position a bit, but almost all bootfitters do it at least a little.

The alternative is changing the bottom and possibly side topography of the boot, so you can push on all relevant parts of it without distorting your feet, or to squeeze the left and right middle sides of the foot together (that must be painful!) to prevent the collapse of the medial (inside, leading to pronation) and lateral (outside, leading to supination) longitudinal (along the long axis of the foot) arches.

It seems to me that if a sufficiently stiff boot fits tightly all over, and is fit to a non-pronated or supinated foot position, pronation and supination physically cannot occur - but most people would hate a boot that tight and stiff, and I think it would be hard to move with a graceful flowing motion.

[Mrs Redboots]

first question..what is pronation?

American for "flat feet", basically!

[Query]

American for "flat feet", basically!

Oops, I guess I used too many words again.

[skaternum]

Actually, I wouldn't call pronation "flat feet." Flat feet is a markedly low arch. Pronation involves the inward tilt of the foot, with more pressure on the inside of the foot. That can make it look like a low arch, but it's not necessarily the same thing. You can have a low arch without pronation.

[miraclegro]

I don't have flat feet. I don't have a high arch, but the rt. foot seems to inconsistently roll in around the arch area.

I have decided i will contact the Klingbeil rep in N.C. and possibly pay a visit. I have been to Klingbeil several times, but it is SO costly and time consuming, being tht i live in Virginia and they are in NY. The original man i purchased from relocated, so it made me really feel stuck.

I think the higher level i become in skatingl, the more difficulty i have. When they are new, they are not as bad, but as they break in, they become more testy to deal with.

[daisies]

I am dredging up this thread to say that my experience with Klingbeil has been awful from start to finish.

I ordered boots last October that were supposed to take 3-4 weeks. Five weeks later, they came back too big, so they had to be sent back. I didn't get them till the end of December, and even though they seemed like they fit, it was too late for me to start breaking them in for my 2008 competitions.

So I put them aside till I came back from Oberstdorf and Mountain Cup and then skated in them in mid-June. After three sessions, it was blatantly apparent to me that they did not fit properly. Part of it was that the fitter marked down that I had no arch, so that they could accommodate an orthotic. Well, I have the highest arches on the planet, and the orthotic sucked, so the boot was way too big on me. There were various other things wrong with the boot, and I complained to several friends.

I never said a word to Klingbeil, because I didn't know if it was their fault or the fitter's fault. I was just going to chuck the boots and return to Harlick stock boots. But somehow word got back to Klingbeil, and they e-mailed me saying they heard I was unhappy and they'd like to offer to remake the boot for me at no charge, and they would put a rush on them. They said they pride themselves on customer service and wanted their customers to be happy.

I thought that was fantastic. My faith in them was restored!

I asked what a "rush" would be, thinking it would be max three weeks since 3-4 was the standard. No, it was still going to take 3-4 weeks, because this was their busiest time of year. Fine. Four weeks later, where are my boots? I was told they still weren't ready and that it would be another two weeks or so. I call back two weeks later. Still not ready, and, "oh by the way, did we mention we're closing for vacation for two weeks?"

WTF????

Who closes for vacation for two weeks during what is purportedly their busiest time of year?

I am told that mine will be No. 1 in line when they return on Aug. 11 and that the boots will be ready by the end of the week and shipped on Aug. 15.

I called today, Aug. 12. I am told my boots will be "at least another two weeks."

Here is where I flip my lid.

I am told that not all the employees came back from vacation yet and they are short-handed. I ask where these employees are and why didn't they come back? I am told they don't know, but sometimes they just take longer.

I'm sorry, but I don't want people who are irresponsible enough to not come back when they are supposed to come back working on my boots!

The bottom line is, I have been held hostage by Klingbeil for two months. If I had just been given the proper time frame at the beginning of this, I could have made a more informed decision as to what I was going to do. That decision would have been to go back to Harlick stock boots, based on time alone. But, no, I was told 3-4 weeks. Instead, it's turning into 3 months and I have wasted so much time. I feel like I have been swindled.

I am done wasting my time with this horrible company.

[techskater]

daisies - Sorry this has been such a horrible experience for you. I love my Harlicks and it sounds like you did before the Klingbeil experiment, so good luck getting stocks!

[daisies]

Thanks techskater. I did love my Harlicks -- my current stock boots are almost seven years old, and the stock boots before that last seven years. I just hope it won't take a long time to get the stock boots too!

Kids, the lesson here is IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!!!

[techskater]

Seems as if the problems have been more about getting blades than boots lately...

[Debbie S]

Wow, my experience with Klingbeil was totally different. Part of the reason may have been that I went to Klingbeil for the fitting, rather than use a local fitter. Admittedly, that is easier for me than you, daisies, since I live on the east coast and was able to take the train up, and then turn it into a fun weekend with friends in NYC/northern NJ (and stay with them). There is a good fitter in my area (he does my sharpenings) that could have done the fitting, and it probably would have been OK, but I'd had such problems with stock boots (including SP-Teri, which also closes for 2 weeks in August, btw) that I wanted to make sure these boots would fit.

I ordered them in December ('05), which I guess is their slow time - they told me 3-5 weeks and the boots came in about 2 1/2. Yes, they were a little big, but from what I've heard from others, that seems to happen all the time - I guess their thinking is that it's easier to adjust the boots to make them smaller than it is to make them bigger. I called them, and the woman said to just send them back with a note (I know others have done this and it has worked out) but I was a bit leery, and I happened to be going to Nats that year ('06) that was in 2 weeks, so I asked if I could just come by their booth at the arena one night, and she said that yes, Don would be there. He had me try them on (once I got into the arena- the security guard almost didn't let me in, until my mom pointed out that the boots didn't have blades) and he took them back with him. I got them about 2 weeks later, and they were fine. No, they're not absolutely perfect, but nothing's going to be - they're the best-fitting skates I've had, and they also helped me get rid of my lace bite (yippee!).

About 9 months later, the tongue on one of the boots started giving me problems, mostly due to twisting, which led to a semi-breakdown, which led to rubbing. They had me send the boots back and they replaced both tongues, put on those hooks (I only use it on the one that twists; it's semi-effective), gave me new laces, and sent them back to me 2 days later. I had been planning to be in my old SP-Teris for a week but only had to wear them once - good thing too, b/c after skating in the Klingbeils, I have no idea how I survived the SP-Teris for 2 1/2 years - lol.

[daisies]

That's great that you had a good experience. My experience may have been different if I lived in New York and could go there in person. One thing that really raised my ire is that even though my boots were going to be late, they still said they wouldn't send them overnight or priority. They only do ground. That is B.S. They make the client suffer when it's their own unforseen circumstances that cause the delay. I emailed them and told them how unhappy I was, and the reply I got in return was excuse after excuse after excuse, laying the onus on me.

If they are so keen on customer service, they should know Customer Service 101: The customer is always right!

[smelltheice]

I have had my klingbiel customs boots for 5 years now and had no problems as such with the boot but with the benefit of hindsight, I would have the backs lower cut to allow me to extend back more. I find they are very high behind for me and so restrict my movement. My coach always had harlick and think that is my next boot as they always appeared to be lower cut behind.

[sk8tmum]

DS is in custom Klingbeils. We are extremely happy with them; they were delivered on time, exactly as ordered, and fitted perfectly. They are holding up very well under a great deal of skating, a -minor- problem with slicing them with his blades on his jumps :frus:; really appreciates the heellock and the "prongs" on the tongue to help lace them perfectly; and are moulded very well to his feet.

He has also lost the inflammation of his Achilles tendon that has plagued him for quite a while.

Granted, we have an excellent fitter in our area, with a very good track record with skaters. I've yet to find any of the number of skaters who have Klings around here be anything but happy. He takes about 45 minutes to an hour to do each individual fitting ... dozens of measurements, angles of view, taking moulds etc. Then, of course, the followup fitting when the skates arrive. And - if they're not perfect, he calls Klingbeil, sends them back, and gets new ones (quite quickly). However, having to send them back is, apparently, quite unusual. Stock and custom both are about.

Now, re: the sizing. When we ordered DS's skates, the fitter requested "room for growth" and we got it. Not a "lot" to make them feel sloppy and loose, but, enough that they are lasting thru an adolescent growth spurt. Also, b/c they are all leather, we can get them stretched a fair bit if needs be.

BTW: I love DD's Riedells, too. They fit her feet beautifully :D

[dbny]

One thing that really raised my ire is that even though my boots were going to be late, they still said they wouldn't send them overnight or priority. They only do ground. That is B.S. They make the client suffer when it's their own unforseen circumstances that cause the delay. I emailed them and told them how unhappy I was, and the reply I got in return was excuse after excuse after excuse, laying the onus on me.

If they are so keen on customer service, they should know Customer Service 101: The customer is always right!

Well, I have to say that I have never, ever heard of such an experience as yours. My Klingbeils have been mailed back to me overnight at no cost to me. I can only suspect that somehow you got off on the wrong foot with someone there, who decided to just put you at the bottom of every list they have. I have been to Klingbeils many times, and have even witnessed Don very nicely offering (and giving) a full refund to a disgruntled customer - and the customer had not asked for one! Don just realized that that particular customer was never going to be satisfied with the boots, and he preferred to end the relationship on a positive note.

I have had my klingbiel customs boots for 5 years now and had no problems as such with the boot but with the benefit of hindsight, I would have the backs lower cut to allow me to extend back more. I find they are very high behind for me and so restrict my movement. My coach always had harlick and think that is my next boot as they always appeared to be lower cut behind.

Don can cut them down for you. Custom boots are made the way you like them. Why not give them a call and ask about it?

[sk8tmum]

I have had my klingbiel customs boots for 5 years now and had no problems as such with the boot but with the benefit of hindsight, I would have the backs lower cut to allow me to extend back more. I find they are very high behind for me and so restrict my movement. My coach always had harlick and think that is my next boot as they always appeared to be lower cut behind.

You can get the Klingbeils cut down behind as well ... some of our dancers have this done, with the rolltop collar on it too. You can also ask for different "amounts" of cut down (does that make sense?) on the custom.

[techskater]

I can only suspect that somehow you got off on the wrong foot with someone there, who decided to just put you at the bottom of every list they have.

Knowing daisies, if this is true, this person has REAL problems as she's never anything but polite in these kinds of situations (that's how she is as an adult committee member/vice chair).

[daisies]

Knowing daisies, if this is true, this person has REAL problems as she's never anything but polite in these kinds of situations (that's how she is as an adult committee member/vice chair).

Thank you, techskater. That is very sweet of you!

I didn't get off on the wrong foot with someone there. I don't know anyone there and didn't talk to anyone there prior to receiving my boots. I ordered them from a local pro shop. They came back later than promised, and they came back wrong. Even the pro shop guy said they were too big. They were shipped back and I didn't get them again for three full weeks. Once I finally skated in them and I could really feel what was going on in the boot, I knew for sure they were wrong. And that's when they had to be sent back again and this latest saga started.

I don't think it's too much to ask to have a boot that is supposed to fit my foot actually fit my foot. And I don't think it's too much to ask that when I am promised the boots within a certain timeframe that I get them in that timeframe.

And I have to add that the more people I tell, the more bad experiences I hear about. So it's not just me. I have heard great experiences, too, but to say that it must be something I did is ridiculous and, frankly, insulting. If you read my original post, you know that Don offered to remake the boot for me -- does that sound like someone who's put me at the bottom of the list? No. His was, in fact, a very generous offer, one that I thanked him for and even told him I recognize that it is above and beyond the call of duty.

The problem arose in that he promised them by a certain time and has not delivered. If I had known what the true timeframe would be, I would have respectfully declined his offer and moved on then and there. I would have eaten the cost and ordered my Harlicks. I'd be out the money, but I'd have the peace of mind knowing I have new boots and I wouldn't be in limbo land for over a month.

Instead, I trusted his word -- and I wasted a ton of training time in the process. That is the issue. And btw, he has not apologized. He did manage to say, however, that his company "does have excellent customer service." I beg to differ.

ETA: And by the way, if for some reason I did start off on the wrong foot with them and was placed at the bottom of every list they had, is that really the kind of company I'd want a relationship with? One I'd trust to make my boots and fix them when needed? I don't think so. Either way, good riddance.

[dbny]

Sorry. I wasn't thinking you did something, but just that there had somehow been a misunderstanding between you and Klinbeils. I really did not intend to be insulting, and I did not go back and read your earlier posts, so I am entirely at fault here. I do now recall (since you mentioned it) that you did not have the initial contact with Klingbeil, but it was your pro shop. Sometimes there is just no understanding what goes on in the context available to us, and I guess this is one of those times. Again, sorry.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Well, I'm going back to Harlicks (as many know) because of Klingbeil's customer service and the fact that they refused to fix boots that were made improperly (that actually caused me to injure myself and require surgery) and I had to buy another pair of boots, which also were not quite right. The right foot was the worst, too big and allowed my foot to pronate horrible (had to have the blades offset) and both boots caused huge holes in my ankles from which I now have scars. There were many other things, like sending them back and them not bothering to look at them for over three weeks, etc. But that's just my personal experience. I know many who swear by Klingbiels.

[daisies]

Sorry. I wasn't thinking you did something, but just that there had somehow been a misunderstanding between you and Klinbeils. I really did not intend to be insulting, and I did not go back and read your earlier posts, so I am entirely at fault here. I do now recall (since you mentioned it) that you did not have the initial contact with Klingbeil, but it was your pro shop. Sometimes there is just no understanding what goes on in the context available to us, and I guess this is one of those times. Again, sorry.
No worries, dbny. Thanks for your apology.

[dbny]

Thank you! I guess any product can be a lemon, and that includes customer service.

[sk8er1964]

Several years ago I bought my second pair of Klingbeils. They were the super lights, and it turns out that they were not strong enough to provide me with good ankle support. So, I contacted my skate sharpener/Klingbeil supplier (Mike) and he made all the arrangements for me. The skates came back strengthened and restuffed, and I have not had a problem since. The whole process took about a week.

I've never dealt directly with Klingbeil, rather I went through Mike. Maybe some of the fault lies with your pro shop??? Could they have been more proactive?

[daisies]

I've never dealt directly with Klingbeil, rather I went through Mike. Maybe some of the fault lies with your pro shop??? Could they have been more proactive?

You raise a good point, but in this situation the pro shop wasn't at all involved in the remake. Don contacted me directly when he heard I was unhappy, and since I don't live near the pro shop I originally bought them from (USA Skates -- it's a good hour away), he agreed that I should have the fitter at my own rink re-measure me and send the original boots back, which did occur. (The fitter at my own rink has nothing to do with any of this, other than he agreed to remeasure me, despite the fact that I didn't pay him a penny, and the boots will be sent back to him and not to USA Skates.)

The rest of the communication was between me and the Klingbeil offices.

And if you're wondering why I didn't go through my own rink in the first place, it's because I wasn't aware at the time that he sold Klingbeils, and USA Skates is said to be the main Klingbeil rep for the West Coast (not sure now if that is true or not, but it's what I believed at the time). Either way, though, USA Skates aren't the ones who promised it would take three to four weeks, so I am not going to blame Klingbeil's poor communication and customer-service skills on them, as they had nothing to do with it. They were informed of the situation, though, when this all went down the other day, and my fitter said he'd see what he could do. Not that it really matters at this point though -- I ain't wearin' these boots when they finally arrive. I want nothing more to do with Klingbeil.

[dbny]

Not that it really matters at this point though -- I ain't wearin' these boots when they finally arrive. I want nothing more to do with Klingbeil.

I don't blame you. I'm still trying to make sense of your awful experience, though. I don't know the time frame, but I just remembered that when I was at the PSA conference in May, someone told me that Don's wife had been critically ill and was still recovering. This is no excuse, of course, but it might have something to do with how they dropped the ball. The Klingbeil shop is small and everyone there is very close. Nothing excuses the treatment you received, but I find it very hard to understand in light of my own experiences with Klingbeil, and so I am looking for explanations.

[Debbie S]

And if you're wondering why I didn't go through my own rink in the first place, it's because I wasn't aware at the time that he sold Klingbeils, and USA Skates is said to be the main Klingbeil rep for the West Coast (not sure now if that is true or not, but it's what I believed at the time). That raises a good point: my recommendation (and this is for everyone, not just daisies) is that if you're going to get customs, and you're not going directly to the company, call them and ask for a fitter in your area that they deal with a lot and recommend. Often, fitters will have stronger relationships with some companies than others. Before I got my Klingbeils, I was considering custom Harlicks, and the Harlick guy I was talking to at the Liberty comp that year recommended a particular fitter in my area (who used to do my sharpenings before he moved his shop and is the one I had mount the blades on my Klingbeils) that fit a lot of custom Harlicks and knew their "system". Interestingly, in a conversation I'd had with this fitter while getting a skate sharpening a year or so earlier, I'd asked him a question about custom Klingbeils and he answered that he wasn't sure, b/c he didn't do a lot of custom Klingbeils. I guess he's a 'Harlick guy'.

So I guess it matters which fitter you go to. I decided on Klingbeils over Harlicks, mostly b/c of the price and the fact that it was a custom last, but also b/c Klingbeil was close enough so that I could get fitted in person, and sending skates for repairs, if needed, would be quicker than sending skates to Harlick.

[Query]

BTW, if you look at the Klingbeil custom boot website, it doesn't look like they tell people to measure enough places for a full 3D boot fit. So if I do Klingbeil again, I too would drive 5-6 hours each to to the factory for fit and adjustments.

If I lived further, I would at least want the fitter to send foot casts. And absolutely, since most skating is on one foot, I would want the impressible foam molding to be done while standing on one foot (unless I was a coach and spent all my time standing on two).

There is some variance of opinion on this - I feel more comfortable if my boots are shaped to my fully loaded feet. But for pronating or supinating feet, you probably want to make sure full foot and impressible foam casts are both done while you are not standing up, and/or while the fitter holds or otherwise makes sure your feet are NOT over-pronated or supinated.

The most important thing is you do NOT want your feet to hurt or cramp when they are in the shape the molds are created in.

Custom leather boots can not be molded to the precision needed to eliminate all problems. I think people who learn to do their own final modifications are happier in the long run.

I don't have pronation, but this is what various people and books have said:

1. The arch collapses vertically more on the inside ("medial") edge of the foot as you weight it. That can be prevented by putting tape under the insole under that part of the foot, or by having an orthotic molded that prevents vertical collapse there.

2. The upper part of the arch, on the (medial) side of the foot, shifts more to the inside. That can't happen if there is adequate pressure against that part of the foot from a tight fit at that point, which you can create by sticking moleskin there. The cheapest orthotics are only molded to the bottom of the foot, and neglect the sides of the foot, which is just as important. If you are using an orthotic and sitll have problems, this may be the problem.

3. In extreme cases, some people adding a lot of pressure to both sides of the foot (inside and outside) right at the arch. A pinched arch cannot collapse, but I think that must hurt and cut the circulation too.

4. In some people, the ankle itself shifts to the inside. You may need a tighter fit and lacing up there too.

[daisies]

Query, thanks for your post. Very interesting. I pronate terribly -- so much that, on my current stock Harlicks, my right blade is so far to the inside that the metal plate sticks out from the bottom of the boot. And when I was measured for the Klingbeils (and when they took the impression of my foot in that foam thingie), I was standing on two feet. I wonder if that's why they weren't right to begin with. My feet were cramping quite badly when I got the boots the first time.

[Query]

And when I was measured for the Klingbeils (and when they took the impression of my foot in that foam thingie), I was standing on two feet. I wonder if that's why they weren't right to begin with. My feet were cramping quite badly when I got the boots the first time.

It's just logic. When you stand on two feet, both feet pronate a bit because you are centered in the middle. Also the foot shape is wrong, because the feet are distorted differently, due to the different weight distribution, and less weight.

The result is obvious, when you skate on one foot using the resulting boots - your feet barely touch the inside side of the insole, and they barely touch the inside side of the boot at the bottom. They place most of your weight and pressure on the outside part of the insole and the bottom side of the boot. It hurts to keep the edge vertical, because you keep having to use muscle to fight the misfit. Some people can't do it at all, and end up with a non-vertical edge.

My fitter made the same mistake, and a bunch of others. Even worse, he didn't know how to fix it. A lot of his former customers wound up going to podiatrists, with mixed results. Oddly enough, I haven't recommended him to other skaters.

In any event, impressible foam just more or less gets your natural foot shape when loaded the way they are fit. Not everyone's feet naturally go to a healthy or pain-free shape. That's why a lot of fitters now fit people with problem feet sitting down, then hold or make sure both their legs are vertical. But that isn't always the healthiest or most pain-free shape either. It is hard to guess what will be best.

Which is part of why I claim it is good to learn how to make mods yourself. That way you can experiment until nothing hurts, your body, legs, feet and blades are aligned right, and you don't need any extra muscle to hold that perfect alignment when skating normally.

[slusher]

My fitter has a very good relationship with Klingbeil and warned me of the annual August shutdown. It works for me because August is my downtime, we don't have any ice until September. I either need to order another pair or send mine back for a rebuild. Since I now detest my back up skates (Jacksons), I'll probably buy another pair in the fall. The great thing about Klingbeils is that there is no break in time whatsoever so I'm not worried about getting skates in November or thereabouts.

[sk8tmum]

BTW, if you look at the Klingbeil custom boot website, it doesn't look like they tell people to measure enough places for a full 3D boot fit. So if I do Klingbeil again, I too would drive 5-6 hours each to to the factory for fit and adjustments.

If I lived further, I would at least want the fitter to send foot casts. And absolutely, since most skating is on one foot, I would want the impressible foam molding to be done while standing on one foot (unless I was a coach and spent all my time standing on two).

.

Our fitter does casts/molds of both feets, plus drawings, measurements etc; the document he produces is at least 4 pages long. That's part of why it takes 45 minutes to an hour for his fittings for Klingbeils. And, if the first cast isn't perfect ... he redoes it until it is.

Like everyone seems to be saying: go to a fitter with a good reputation, it makes a difference. Plus, thinking logically: a good fitter gets repeat business; he gets a larger volume of business; which would indicate that s/he would have a better relationship/understanding of the boot company.

[daisies]

Like everyone seems to be saying: go to a fitter with a good reputation, it makes a difference. Plus, thinking logically: a good fitter gets repeat business; he gets a larger volume of business; which would indicate that s/he would have a better relationship/understanding of the boot company.
Great advice. (Unfortunately it didn't apply in my case, as USA Skates actually is the West Coast rep for Klingbeil and sells a very large volume of the boots, but great advice nevertheless!)

I am being measured for my Harlick Competitor Plus stock boots tomorrow. Please keep your fingers crossed for me that I am now a size 7 and not a 6 1/2, as I was seven years ago, or else the blades I bought for the God-forsaken Klingbeils won't fit the Harlicks ... and I will be out even more money. (I have a feeling I am a 7 now ... my 6 1/2 AA Harlicks actually feel tight -- and my toes feel curled up -- but since the boots are seven years old I'm guessing they've stretched out a bit!)

[dbny]

Good luck with your new custom Harlicks! I hope the blades fit, but if they don't you can offer them here, on ebay, or on Don Korte's Skate Exchange.