US Figure Skating's proposed new MITF

[icedancer2]

I saw this on another list and don't know whether we have discussed it but I thought this warranted it's own thread. This is from the US figure Skating website:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=37811

Very interesting to see all of the proposed changes to our Moves system.

I'm sure skatingforums members will have lots to say about this!!

[Bill_S]

Lots of emphasis on twizzles there.

I also see loops (not the jump) are back. I've seen them in competition on TV a bunch this year and wonder if there's a connection.

[Sessy]

I've also seen a lot of them at *our* nationals.

[Debbie S]

Well, they're one of the turns/steps that count for a level feature in step sequences - skaters have to have a certain number of different (variety) steps and turns to achieve various levels.

[FlyAndCrash]

Yay for spirals!

At least I might have something to look forward to in the distant future if another spiral pattern gets added.

[Isk8NYC]

Sounds like the Standard Track's answer to the skills jump of Adult Silver other were discussing, lol.

[vesperholly]

Thank the skating gods that I've only got Senior MIF left!! I'd better get cracking and pass them ASAP, because those loops look like an exercise in torture. Is this on the slate for discussion at this year's Governing Council?

The only thing I really would support is the Juvenile spiral pattern. Juvenile MIF is too short of a test, and there's too long a gap between Prelim and Novice spirals.

My concern with making moves more difficult is that the harder they are to pass, the fewer skaters will stay in the sport because it takes too much to achieve the goal - a gold medal. 99% of skaters are not talented enough to ever reach elite competitive levels where this kind of footwork is required. I'm not opposed to introducing twizzles, but I think USFS needs to ask itself what and who these tests are really for.

[Sessy]

wait, you mean you can tests MIF's without ever testing freestyle to go with it?

[techskater]

Lots of emphasis on twizzles there.

I also see loops (not the jump) are back. I've seen them in competition on TV a bunch this year and wonder if there's a connection.

Yes, loops got added as an identified "turn" in footwork this year, so there's your connection. For variety there must be four different types of turns (three, bracket, counter, rocker, loop, twizzle are your options) and for complexity (must be achieved for L4) there must be 5.

Novice test here I come - before they change! ;)

[manleywoman]

wait, you mean you can tests MIF's without ever testing freestyle to go with it?

Correct. For example, you could be Juvenile Freestyle, but have passed your Senior MIF.

But you CANNOT test the freestyle without its equivalent MIF test.

[daisies]

My concern with making moves more difficult is that the harder they are to pass, the fewer skaters will stay in the sport because it takes too much to achieve the goal - a gold medal. 99% of skaters are not talented enough to ever reach elite competitive levels where this kind of footwork is required. I'm not opposed to introducing twizzles, but I think USFS needs to ask itself what and who these tests are really for.
I disagree. This kind of footwork is what is required for any event being judged under IJS, and as of now that's Juvenile.

These tests are still a million times easier than figures. I am so happy they are looking to bring back loops, even though it won't be until the senior tests. Loops are the ultimate test of blade control and IMO should be introduced sooner than senior, but beggars can't be choosers! In figures, forward loops are introduced in the 3rd test (equivalent to Intermediate) and back loops are introduced in the 4th test (equivalent to Novice).

[techskater]

wait, you mean you can tests MIF's without ever testing freestyle to go with it?

Yes. MIF are required for Synchro as well and they don't have a FS test requirement. I know kids who are competitive skaters who passed Senior MIF and are Juv/Intermediate level FS.

[doubletoe]

From the USFSA's point of view, I think it's a great idea because it will make our skaters more competitive internationally. But from the point of view of a U.S. skater in local competitions, it just means everyone else will be able to do the difficult moves you've gone out of your way to master. Once everyone HAS to be able to do loops and change-edge spirals, they'll be worth nothing in competition and you'll have to find something even more difficult that isn't on the tests.

I'm sure the Junior men are going to be griping a LOT about the spirals on the Senior test. I wonder if the BO variation spiral needs to be a "difficult variation" or just a variation (like a fan spiral). If a difficult variation, they'll probably have to start stretching around the time they pass Novice. . .

[daisies]

From the USFSA's point of view, I think it's a great idea because it will make our skaters more competitive internationally. But from the point of view of a U.S. skater in local competitions, it just means everyone else will be able to do the difficult moves you've gone out of your way to master. Once everyone HAS to be able to do loops and change-edge spirals, they'll be worth nothing in competition and you'll have to find something even more difficult that isn't on the tests.

I'm sure the Junior men are going to be griping a LOT about the spirals on the Senior test. I wonder if the BO variation spiral needs to be a "difficult variation" or just a variation (like a fan spiral). If a difficult variation, they'll probably have to start stretching around the time they pass Novice. . .
I have to disagree with you too! (Sorry! :)) What they are proposing in these MIFs are not difficult moves. They are only difficult because skaters today don't have the basics to build on to learn them anymore. (Read: figures.) This is an attempt to bring some of that building block back. They will still be worth something in competition -- exactly what they are worth now -- but just like jumps and spins, the judge is going to grade how well you do them, and not everyone will have the same quality.

The junior men have no gripe. There is already a very similar spiral move on the senior test; this is just a revision to incorporate a COE and a variation.

Obviously, I am thrilled that they are potentially incorporating these changes. The MIF tests need to be harder than they are now. Skaters are flying through them and moving up in their FS levels before they are really ready for that level. It's not figures, but it's something!

[/soapbox]

[doubletoe]

I have to disagree with you too! (Sorry! :)) What they are proposing in these MIFs are not difficult moves. They are only difficult because skaters today don't have the basics to build on to learn them anymore. (Read: figures.) This is an attempt to bring some of that building block back. They will still be worth something in competition -- exactly what they are worth now -- but just like jumps and spins, the judge is going to grade how well you do them, and not everyone will have the same quality.

The junior men have no gripe. There is already a very similar spiral move on the senior test; this is just a revision to incorporate a COE and a variation.

Obviously, I am thrilled that they are potentially incorporating these changes. The MIF tests need to be harder than they are now. Skaters are flying through them and moving up in their FS levels before they are really ready for that level. It's not figures, but it's something!

[/soapbox]

I don't actually disagree with the new moves being introduced, I was just trying to imagine who might not like them as much. I guess if the men already need to be at least somewhat flexible for the spirals on the current test, maybe the new ones won't be more than a slight increase in the nuisance they are already putting up with (since they don't do spirals in their programs).

[vesperholly]

I disagree. This kind of footwork is what is required for any event being judged under IJS, and as of now that's Juvenile.

These tests are still a million times easier than figures. I am so happy they are looking to bring back loops, even though it won't be until the senior tests. Loops are the ultimate test of blade control and IMO should be introduced sooner than senior, but beggars can't be choosers! In figures, forward loops are introduced in the 3rd test (equivalent to Intermediate) and back loops are introduced in the 4th test (equivalent to Novice).
It's the same reason I vehemently oppose putting a double axel on the Senior FS test. If you make the tests really difficult, you're going to have more skaters dropping out because of unachievable goals. How many skaters quit because they never could get their 3rd figure? Of course we don't want to dumb down a program just to keep skaters in the sport, but in all honesty, that's how the money is made and how the elite skaters are able to be supported. The vast majority of skaters in USFS are participatory/low-level competitive. What's up for discussion is, are these changes making the tests more unachievable? I think some of them are. I like the Juvenile spirals. I like the Intermediate twizzles. That's about it.

I think some of the problem is with judging standards. Some of the moves are very difficult when done properly - deep and proper edges, speed, etc. But I have personally witnessed passed tests where the skater can "do" the move, but it certainly isn't "mastered." No matter what's on the moves tests, there are always going to be skaters and coaches who just want to get them "out of the way" so they can concentrate on freestyle.

[techskater]

vesper, I think you nailed it on the head when you mention the can "do" versus "master". The only thing that can be done to correct that is that the judging standard overall needs to be more consistent so that a "can do it without falling" isn't the passing standard for some judges/areas while "performance and total mastery" is in others. How can that be fixed?

[myste12]

Yikes, some of those revisions are HARD! Counters straight into twizzles without putting a foot down, change edge spirals on both feet, and I don't even want to contemplate that loop pattern on senior... I'm all for increasing the difficulty of the moves tests to keep up with competition standards, but it would be hard on some of us who are pretty far along in the current system to suddenly have a bunch of moves we've never done before thrown in (change edge spirals on both feet, twizzles, and loops).

I know I'll be busting my butt twice as hard to test senior moves before these changes go into effect!

[daisies]

I don't think the purpose is to make the tests harder, I think the purpose is to adapt to a changing judging system and skating environment. The byproduct is that, yes, the test is harder. But I am having a hard time understanding what is so hard in these proposals that it makes the tests unpassable. All I see are basic skating moves -- that will, of course, take some effort to make presentable.

[double3s]

Those loops are COOL! I want to learn!

[Sylvia]

Here is a public reply by the Chair of US Figure Skating's Singles Committee back on August 3, 2007 about the changes proposed in the link posted at the beginning of this thread:
I believe that I need to set the record straight about the clips that have been referenced in this thread.

The clips that have been referenced were posted on the US Figure Skating website on an unpublished page for the use of the Singles Committee's sub-committee for the moves in the field. The purpose was for discussion of which moves would be considered for incorporation. Not all of the moves shown on the clips will be proposed to be carried forward into the testing structure.

As you will note from the quality of these clips, these are not quite ready for public presentation at this time.

The process that will be followed to decide how the current moves in the field test structure will be changed still has many steps to go before they become a reality. The first step has been accomplished. Janet Champion and her sub-committee have proposed some new moves that they believe should be incorporated into the test structure. They have spent countless hours looking at this and I personally thank them for their efforts.

The next step is to take the moves forward to the entire Singles Committee for comment and vote. The Singles Committee is composed equally of judges, coaches, and current skaters. We expect this discussion to occur during the late summer and early fall of this year.

As the Moves tests also affect the requirements for pairs and dance, these sister committees will also be solicited for their opinions.

Following committee deliberation and balloting, the successful proposals for change to the existing test content will be incorporated into Requests for Action by the US Figure Skating Board of Directors, and Governing Council. The current timeline would have the changes to the Moves in the Field tests presented at the May 2008 Governing Council meeting in Denver. If passed the new test requirements would go into effect in September 2008 following the close of entries for the 2009 regional season.

We have budgeted funds to produce a video of the new moves that would be produced following acceptance of the new moves by the Governing Council.

As we believe that skating is ever evolving, we believe that our testing structure also needs to keep pace with the changes and requirements. We appreciate your comments regarding the proposed elements for the moves in the field tests and look forward to reading your continuing discussions on the subject.

Hal Marron
Chair, US Figure Skating Singles Committee

[daisies]

Thanks for posting that, Sylvia!

[vesperholly]

Does anyone know if the Singles Committee has made any action on the moves?

[Sylvia]

Does anyone know if the Singles Committee has made any action on the moves?
If (BIG if) I can find out anything definitive, I will post it here (it may not be until after U.S. Nationals is over).

[Debbie S]

I think the purpose is to adapt to a changing judging system and skating environment.But as vesperholly pointed out, not all skaters want to or plan to go to Nationals, Worlds, or the Olympics. In fact, from what I've seen, most teenagers who have been skating for a while (like since they were 6, 7, 8, etc) reach a point where they stop competing, b/c they're too old to be in Juv, at least at Regionals, (and wouldn't want to be in the lower levels that they've already spent years in) and aren't competitive in Intermediate or Novice or higher b/c they don't have 2axels or triples. So they keep practicing, test MIF and FS to complete the testing program, maybe take up dance (testing) or synchro, perform in club and rink shows, etc. The Test Track competition program was recently created specifically for these skaters, so the USFSA obviously realizes the money to be made by keeping these skaters in the sport and encouraging them to compete and test, even though they're not competitive in the higher 'standard' comp levels. And Test Track events (and Open Juv) do not use IJS.

My understanding is that figures were abolished not only b/c they made competitions difficult for the average viewer to understand (since the figures comp was never broadcast anyway) but b/c they discouraged skaters from staying in the sport (patch ice was hard to find and expensive, skills were very difficult). Some might say that was a cop-out, but if skating is going to be embraced by the masses, it has to be accessible. And there's nothing to stop elite-track skaters from learning figures (I think I read that Evan Lysacek tested most of the figures tests?).

As every skater (adult and kid) knows, achieving a test level does not make you competitive at that level. There are no 2axels and triples required on FS tests (thank goodness) but that doesn't mean that skaters who want to and can compete at the high levels don't practice them - they know they need those jumps to be competitive. It's the same way with footwork - if skaters want to achieve a Level 4, then they'll need to learn those skills, but that doesn't mean we should require everyone to learn them. Getting a gold medal in a testing track is not the same thing as getting a gold medal at Nationals or the Olympics, and everyone knows that. What the majority of skaters are shooting for is the satisfaction of completing a challenging (and do people really think the current Novice, Junior, and Senior MIF tests aren't challenging?) testing program and feeling good about their years in the sport. I agree with techskater that judging standards vary a lot, but that doesn't mean that the tests should be harder (and there will still be judging inconsistencies).

Does anyone know if the Singles Committee has made any action on the moves?FWIW, I looked at the link at the time the response that Sylvia quoted was first posted, and I looked again today, and it seems like some of the moves are different. I remember more moves, that appear to be removed, and some new moves that I don't remember (like the Senior quick edge step and the Junior MIF change - does this mean counters will no longer be on Novice and instead on Junior? what moves are they replacing?). It's possible this may be their final proposal (or an updated work-in-progress one).

[daisies]

I understand what you are saying, but I think where we differ is that you think these moves are over-the-top hard and I think they are basic.

There's nothing about these moves that's Level 4. In order to achieve even a Level 2 in a step sequence, a skater needs four types of turns and two types of steps, and they need to execute each one twice. Any less, and it's no higher than Level 1, no matter what. Loops and twizzles are turns. They are no harder than rockers and counters -- at least, rockers and counters that are done correctly and not actually three-turns because the skater changes edge at the last second, which sadly is the case a lot of times. Also sadly, skaters who attempt these rockers and counters but do them on the wrong edges will not have those turns counted in their step sequence, and thus they will be relegated to Level 1. So what's wrong with expanding these skaters' repertoire of turns so that they have a chance of achieving a higher level? Loops are actually easier than correctly done rockers and counters, btw. There's a reason they are on a lower figure test (starts at 3rd test) than counters (6th) and rockers (7th).

I understand that you think making these tests harder is going to turn off the masses, but that is where we disagree, and that's mainly because we disagree on how hard these moves actually are. With a little effort, everything is achievable!

[ibreakhearts66]

i'm not too sure how i feel about these. i do think the juvenile spirals are important. i mean, we do spirals in pre-pre and prelim, and then not til novice? that didnt make too much sense.

the loop pattern seems really difficult. i can do loops, but that pattern seems especially tricky. i definitely want to give it a try when i get back on the ice though.

and, to me, the senior quickstep seems a little excessive. i can't tell how difficult it is, but it just seems unnecessary. i mean, i guess it is important to be able to incorporate different turns into one pattern, but i dont think the MIF test is the place to do it. after all, intricate step sequences ARE required for the FS...

[twokidsskatemom]

We are having a test session this weekend. I have the judges going out to dinner with our local coaches and one of the gold level/national judges suggested this topic for discussion. I am not going but will find out what was said about the changes.

[Ellyn]

From what I've seen, I'd say the juvenile spiral sequence is appropriate (the one that was posted last summer was very similar to what I was thinking before that could be useful on the juvenile test; the current version should be easier to maintain flow). The double twizzles, other than maybe forward inside, are too hard for juvenile which is where they were assigned last summer and probably too hard for intermediate, but those patterns with single twizzles could be appropriate for those levels. Then maybe add a double twizzle move OR add single or double twizzles to an existing move at novice or junior but not both, leave the senior quickstep move as it was, and the senior spirals changes and addition of some version of loop figure at that level would be appropriate.

They could also require the currently optional loops in the novice counter move.

[phoenix]

The FI twizzles are definitely much easier than FO ones. I agree expecting a good double is asking a bit much at Juvenile. I also think the intermediate backward ones, w/ a pull/change out of them, are very difficult for that level. They should start with singles.

However--I suspect if they do put them in, the judges won't judge them the same way a dancer gets judged on twizzles in a FD--in other words, they may not have to be as good in order to pass.

[manleywoman]

I don't buy the argument that these are unpassable either. I passed my Junior MIF at 35 years old, and my Senior MIF at 36. Cindy Crouse passed her Novice MIF just last week, and she's in her early 50s! It's doable for sure. I don't think these current MIF are harder persé than the current ones, just more applicable to competitive footwork standards.

[techskater]

I don't buy the argument that these are unpassable either. I passed my Junior MIF at 35 years old, and my Senior MIF at 36. Cindy Crouse passed her Novice MIF just last week, and she's in her early 50s! It's doable for sure. I don't think these current MIF are harder persé than the current ones, just more applicable to competitive footwork standards.

She's 50, not early 50's yet!! :D

I agree, just takes a different mindset to do the new ones. I still want to pas my Novice test before they change since I DID put a ton of work into them.

[kayskate]

The FI twizzles are definitely much easier than FO ones. I agree expecting a good double is asking a bit much at Juvenile. I also think the intermediate backward ones, w/ a pull/change out of them, are very difficult for that level. They should start with singles.


I assume the man demonstrating the Int twizzles is Damon Allen. In one of the clips, the coach asked ppl to "watch out for Damon". Can anyone confirm who he is? In any case, he made mistakes on 2 of the int twizzle patterns. Don't know how relevant this is. Anyone can make a mistake, and we don't know how much he may have practiced those moves before filming. It seems to speak to the difficulty of these moves. The emphasis on twizzles is very pronounced, IMO. Personally, I have never had much luck w any other than FI and BO.

I like the loops. On their own, BI are not very hard, but put in the context of power pulls is another story.

Kay

[daisies]

In any case, he made mistakes on 2 of the int twizzle patterns. Don't know how relevant this is.
I don't think it's relevant at all. As Sylvia posted earlier, the Web page was only meant to be seen by the committee working on the proposal, to give them an idea of what the moves would look like. Given that, it's unlikely Damon, if that's who it is, spent any time practicing them, since the videos aren't for public consumption. (Despite the fact that we are all consuming them!)

[phoenix]

I assume the man demonstrating the Int twizzles is Damon Allen. ... In any case, he made mistakes on 2 of the int twizzle patterns. Don't know how relevant this is.
Kay

I noticed that too. I think it speaks to the fact that they are difficult, and even a very high level skater has to really focus while doing them, or they'll lose it.

[daisies]

I think it speaks to the fact that they take practice and that they aren't handing out a "pass" on a silver platter.

But that's just me.

[techskater]

I think it speaks to the fact that they take practice and that they aren't handing out a "pass" on a silver platter.

But that's just me.

Daisies-
I can totally see your point. If these do pass at GC, I don't think we'll be seeing 9 and 10 year old kids breezing through their MIF tests anymore. Yahoo! I don't think a 10 year old should (I'm going to say this and the parents/younger skaters on this board can say what they will about this comment) be "given" a pass on the Novice and higher moves just because of their age and the can "do" the moves. I don't see how a 10 year old can generate enough power or give the performance aspect described as part of those tests in the same way that a 9-10 year old passing Gold dances is rare. I guess I am saying I agree with you! :bow:

[vesperholly]

Daisies-
I can totally see your point. If these do pass at GC, I don't think we'll be seeing 9 and 10 year old kids breezing through their MIF tests anymore. Yahoo! I don't think a 10 year old should (I'm going to say this and the parents/younger skaters on this board can say what they will about this comment) be "given" a pass on the Novice and higher moves just because of their age and the can "do" the moves. I don't see how a 10 year old can generate enough power or give the performance aspect described as part of those tests in the same way that a 9-10 year old passing Gold dances is rare. I guess I am saying I agree with you! :bow:
But that is a judging standards issue, not a moves difficulty issue. Many skaters will be able to "do" these new moves, too. No matter what moves are on the test, if a judge will pass a "do" instead of a "master" test, the point of the test is devalued.

[daisies]

I guess I am saying I agree with you! :bow:
Thanks techskater! LOL

One of the great things about figures, as hard as they were, were that they kept kids from moving up in the ranks too soon. Some may view this as a bad thing, because kids might burn out of the sport before accomplishing anything, but I think it was a great thing, because it kept kids from being forced to work on triple jumps that they and their bodies were clearly not ready for and thus becoming injured, potentially chronically. These days it seems kids are plowing through the moves tests, enabling them to take the corresponding FS tests as soon as they can master each test's hardest element -- and we know each test's hardest element isn't what kids are doing in competition, so they end up working on triples before they've really mastered the doubles.

Hopefully, if these new moves are actually proposed and passed, they will help keep skaters from moving up too soon. I still don't think they are that much harder than the current moves, but they seem to be designed to boost edge control and overall skating skills, and that can only be a good thing.

[daisies]

But that is a judging standards issue, not a moves difficulty issue. Many skaters will be able to "do" these new moves, too. No matter what moves are on the test, if a judge will pass a "do" instead of a "master" test, the point of the test is devalued.
I understand what you're trying to say, but I think it's deeper than that. For example, the passing average on, say, Intermediate is 3.2. If you want perfection, you'd be looking at a passing average of 6.0; "mastering" something would be more on the upper end of the 6.0 scale ... not a 3.2. So as it stands now, "mastery" isn't really required. And it may not be required with these new moves, either, because I doubt they are going to change the passing average.

The point is to get skaters working on these moves that a) they will need to compete under IJS, which will at some point be used in all levels, and b) will boost their edge control and skating skills, as I said in my previous post. One of the most helpful things for edge control is loops, so it's too bad they aren't set to be introduced until senior, but I see the rationale behind the overhaul as a whole.

[twokidsskatemom]

Thanks techskater! LOL

One of the great things about figures, as hard as they were, were that they kept kids from moving up in the ranks too soon. Some may view this as a bad thing, because kids might burn out of the sport before accomplishing anything, but I think it was a great thing, because it kept kids from being forced to work on triple jumps that they and their bodies were clearly not ready for and thus becoming injured, potentially chronically. These days it seems kids are plowing through the moves tests, enabling them to take the corresponding FS tests as soon as they can master each test's hardest element -- and we know each test's hardest element isn't what kids are doing in competition, so they end up working on triples before they've really mastered the doubles.

Hopefully, if these new moves are actually proposed and passed, they will help keep skaters from moving up too soon. I still don't think they are that much harder than the current moves, but they seem to be designed to boost edge control and overall skating skills, and that can only be a good thing.
I see kids move up in moves but not in fs tests. You have skaters at imterm moves that compete prelim all the time.Kids hold back in fs tests, even if they work on harder elements. The new moves will not stop that.

[pairman2]

I think the proposed moves are doable and they do seem to reflect the increased difficulty being introduced to the sport.

Daisies,
Regarding the judging of MITF, I've observed that all to often, 'perfect' just gets a skater to the required mark, and no more; 3.2 for example on the intermediate.

On another related topic, why is it that MITF demonstrates the core competence of skating skills and yet in the IJS, such paltry values are assigned to foot work passages relative to some elements that don't take years to develop. A skater gifted with a limber body can pull off extremely 'difficult' spiral sequences with relatively little training. If MITF are going to to be ramped up in difficulty and scrutiny on test ice, shouldn't this added emphasis translate to assigning more value on competition ice?

[manleywoman]

On another related topic, why is it that MITF demonstrates the core competence of skating skills and yet in the IJS, such paltry values are assigned to foot work passages relative to some elements that don't take years to develop. A skater gifted with a limber body can pull off extremely 'difficult' spiral sequences with relatively little training. If MITF are going to to be ramped up in difficulty and scrutiny on test ice, shouldn't this added emphasis translate to assigning more value on competition ice?

Well I totally agree. I think it's insane that spiral sequences are valued more than a footwork sequence when (a) footwork is harder to create and maintain flow/speed, and (b) some girls are very naturally gifted in flexibility, which is a huge advantage. I do think that IJS needs to change that.

[Summerkid710]

I kinda *like* the new Novice brackets with the twizzles. There's more focus on edge quality instead of trying to do them as fast as possible.

[Ellyn]

Well I totally agree. I think it's insane that spiral sequences are valued more than a footwork sequence when (a) footwork is harder to create and maintain flow/speed, and (b) some girls are very naturally gifted in flexibility, which is a huge advantage. I do think that IJS needs to change that.

The base values for step sequences and spiral sequences are the same for the same level of sequence. It's just easier to get a higher level on a spiral sequence than a step sequence the way the level definitions are currently set up, especially if one is naturally gifted in flexibility.

[doubletoe]

The base values for step sequences and spiral sequences are the same for the same level of sequence. It's just easier to get a higher level on a spiral sequence than a step sequence the way the level definitions are currently set up, especially if one is naturally gifted in flexibility.

Exactly. I don't think there's a whole lot you can do to make spiral sequences more difficult (other than being stricter in applying the requirements for some of the positions, such as the "full split"). To bring the difficulty of footwork and spiral sequences more in line with each other, I'd vote for relaxing the requirements for the step sequence levels.

BTW, Pairman, don't forget that the PCS scores--including skating skills and transitions--are worth half the total score. MIF do more for the program components scores than anything else, I think. Meanwhile, the loops and twizzles on the MIF tests will make it less difficult to achieve the levels on the footwork.

[Ellyn]

To bring the difficulty of footwork and spiral sequences more in line with each other, I'd vote for relaxing the requirements for the step sequence levels.

I would too.

[doubletoe]

I would too.

BTW, I think the technical callers would, too! It currently takes at least 2 of them to figure out the level of a step sequence!

[daisies]

Daisies,
Regarding the judging of MITF, I've observed that all to often, 'perfect' just gets a skater to the required mark, and no more; 3.2 for example on the intermediate.
Wow, you've seen them done perfectly? Often? I've never seen them done perfectly! I need to judge where you do! :)

[pairman2]

Hi Daisies

Well of course perfection is completely subjective and judges preferences vary considerably. I think my point is that the distance between 3.1 score and a 3.2 passing average can be a void virtually impossible to cross for some skaters, so in that context, there can be no true 6.0 in my example for someone skating an intermediate test.

My idea of 'Perfection' is no mistakes, correct edges, and a moderate amount of gracefulness....& maybe a smile too :-)

ps I'm not a judge, but rather an adult that's tested a great deal over the past 10 years, which also lends itself to watching many judges and skaters and observing differences in outcome.

[lovepairs]

There's nothing about these moves that's Level 4. In order to achieve even a Level 2 in a step sequence, a skater needs four types of turns and two types of steps, and they need to execute each one twice.

Hi Daisies,

Where did you get this information from? Yes, in order to achieve a Level 2 in a step sequence, a skater does need four types of turns and two types of steps, but where did you read that they need to execute each one twice? What do you mean by each one twice? Twice in the footwork sequence, or do you mean something, such as two instead of one turn in each twizzle? Please clarify, or let me know where you read this.

Thanks,
Lovepairs

Oh, about Figures: they actually were televised during competitions, but not in their entirety. Also when figures were required there was plenty of patch ice available. It's when they were abolished that patch ice began vanishing. Also, IMHO, having studied both, there is not a huge difference in difficulty between figures and moves when "mastered," both are equally hard to "master." I think why some people think figures were harder than MIF is because they were "literally scrutinized" by the judges, and the tracings were taken into account. There is a perception that MIF aren't as hard, because there is distance between the judges and your tracings, and the perception is that there is a little bit more wiggle room, but that's not really the case when both are "mastered."

[techskater]

I would be in favor of making a L2 footwork sequence worth in between a L2 and L3 spiral, a L3 footwork sequence between a L3 and L4 spiral and a L4 footwork sequence (that we have seen very few of total at the elite levels) equal to whatever it's currently worth + 1/2 the difference between what a "L5" spiral sequence would be worth and it's current value. It would give people an incentive to really put the work to pull up the value instead of getting a L1 or L2 on it and letting spirals and spins pull up the TES mark, just like ladies are working on 3A and 3/3 and men are working to get the quads consistent. I don't like relaxing the current requirements for footwork to get higher levels, skaters SHOULD be able to do those things, I just think it should be equal to the energy expended on it.

[techskater]

Hi Daisies,

Where did you get this information from? Yes, in order to achieve a Level 2 in a step sequence, a skater does need four types of turns and two types of steps, but where did you read that they need to execute each one twice? What do you mean by each one twice? Twice in the footwork sequence, or do you mean something, such as two instead of one turn in each twizzle? Please clarify, or let me know where you read this.


By twice, she means 2 of each type of turn/step you put in the footwork, not a double twizzle or double three. They don't have to be the same edge/foot/direction, there just needs to be 2. It's in the ISU Communication 1445 and in one of the US Figure Skating communications as well. It's not well written (actually it reads as if it was written by someone in an ESL course) but it's there.

[NoVa Sk8r]

In order to achieve even a Level 2 in a step sequence, a skater needs four types of turns and two types of steps, and they need to execute each one twice.

Check out the Singles Level of Difficulty (from ISU Communication 1459):
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/200708-S-levels.pdf

The bulletins for step sequences are:
1) Variety (complexity for Level 4) of turns and steps throughout (compulsory)
2) Rotations (turns, steps) in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction)
3) Modest (full for Level 4) use of upper body movement
4) Quick changes of rotational direction executed by rockers and/or counters, twizzles and/or quick rotational toe steps immediately following each other

Listed under Clarifications on page 2:
Turns: three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers.
Steps: running steps, toe steps, chasses, mohawks, choctaws, curves with change of edge, cross-rolls.

Various types of turns and steps must be balanced in their distribution throughout the sequence.

Variety: Must include at least 4 different types of turns and 2 different types of steps. Each of these types of turns and steps must be executed at least twice during the sequence.

Complexity: Must include at least 5 different types of turns and 3 different types of steps all executed at least once in both directions.

[lovepairs]

I would be in favor of making a L2 footwork sequence worth in between a L2 and L3 spiral, a L3 footwork sequence between a L3 and L4 spiral and a L4 footwork sequence (that we have seen very few of total at the elite levels) equal to whatever it's currently worth + 1/2 the difference between what a "L5" spiral sequence would be worth and it's current value. It would give people an incentive to really put the work to pull up the value instead of getting a L1 or L2 on it and letting spirals and spins pull up the TES mark, just like ladies are working on 3A and 3/3 and men are working to get the quads consistent. I don't like relaxing the current requirements for footwork to get higher levels, skaters SHOULD be able to do those things, I just think it should be equal to the energy expended on it.

Spirals are much easier to learn and to do than Chactows, Brackets, Rockers, Counters and Loops...and that's all I have to say about that...been there done it.

[lovepairs]

By twice, she means 2 of each type of turn/step you put in the footwork, not a double twizzle or double three. They don't have to be the same edge/foot/direction, there just needs to be 2. It's in the ISU Communication 1445 and in one of the US Figure Skating communications as well. It's not well written (actually it reads as if it was written by someone in an ESL course) but it's there.

Oh, so you mean two counters, perhaps one forward inside and one forward outside, and for twizzles, perhaps one back outside and one forward inside, and that all of this is independent of the number of rotation, let's say, in the twizzles. Okay, I see what you mean then, because no where is there a mention of number of rotations as there is with spins. Or, if there is number of required rotation in footwork elements in print, please tell me where I can read this.

[techskater]

Spirals are much easier to learn and to do than Chactows, Brackets, Rockers, Counters and Loops...and that's all I have to say about that...been there done it.

Speak for yourself. I am spiral-lexic. I think I am about the only Gold Lady going for the footwork credit over the spiral credit this year. My footwork was put together by a TS and was completed in 25 minutes of lesson time from a layout standpoint (what steps in what order to achieve the variety requirement). I was able to do it decently after only a few sessions when the TS started adding arms and modest body movement on the steps. It got good reviews after competing only a month after learning it and it's gotten better reviews since. If we were going for the spiral credit, we'd still be debating and working on it six months later instead of polishing it.

My suggestion is, for the energy expended, it should be worth more than it's equivalent spirals. That was my point in my post - it should be worth an in between number. So, L2 spiral sequence is worth 2.3 and a L3 spiral sequence is worth 3.1. A L2 step sequence should be worth 2.7 points. A L4 spiral is worth 3.4. A L3 step seqence should be worth 3.25 and a L4 step sequence should be worth >3.4 based on energy spend.

[techskater]

Oh, so you mean two counters, perhaps one forward inside and one forward outside, and for twizzles, perhaps one back outside and one forward inside, and that all of this is independent of the number of rotation, let's say, in the twizzles. Okay, I see what you mean then, because no where is there a mention of number of rotations as there is with spins. Or, if there is number of required rotation in footwork elements in print, please tell me where I can read this.

Correct. BUT for the rotational feature, the rotations must be a minimum of 360 degrees. My footwork has a back inside loop, a forward outside loop, a forward inside 3, a back outside 3, RFI twizzle, LFI double twizzle, a RFO counter, a LFO counter, LBO rocker, RBI rocker, two mohawks, two chasses, one set of toe turns (not in that order of course, but that's how we checked off the requirement on paper)

[doubletoe]

Speak for yourself. I am spiral-lexic. I think I am about the only Gold Lady going for the footwork credit over the spiral credit this year. My footwork was put together by a TS and was completed in 25 minutes of lesson time from a layout standpoint (what steps in what order to achieve the variety requirement). I was able to do it decently after only a few sessions when the TS started adding arms and modest body movement on the steps. It got good reviews after competing only a month after learning it and it's gotten better reviews since. If we were going for the spiral credit, we'd still be debating and working on it six months later instead of polishing it.

My suggestion is, for the energy expended, it should be worth more than it's equivalent spirals. That was my point in my post - it should be worth an in between number. So, L2 spiral sequence is worth 2.3 and a L3 spiral sequence is worth 3.1. A L2 step sequence should be worth 2.7 points. A L4 spiral is worth 3.4. A L3 step seqence should be worth 3.25 and a L4 step sequence should be worth >3.4 based on energy spend.

It's actually more energy than you would think, now that you pretty much need to be pulling a leg up over your head most of the time and that takes a lot more out of the core muscles (especially if you aren't that flexible and really have to push/pull hard like I do). My spiral sequence used to give me a chance to breathe, but now I find that I hold my breath for 6-8 seconds at a time because if I lose the tension in my core I'll do a face plant. :( On the other hand, the new spiral sequence limits also mean spiral sequences can't take more than about 20 seconds, so I think it's more a matter of points per second than exertion. The intricacy of footwork means that anything level 2 or higher is probably going to take more than 20 seconds of program time, which could be a basis for increasing its value.

[manleywoman]

IMHO, having studied both, there is not a huge difference in difficulty between figures and moves when "mastered," both are equally hard to "master." I think why some people think figures were harder than MIF is because they were "literally scrutinized" by the judges, and the tracings were taken into account. There is a perception that MIF aren't as hard, because there is distance between the judges and your tracings, and the perception is that there is a little bit more wiggle room, but that's not really the case when both are "mastered."

Wow. As someone who passed her Junior MIF, Senior MIF and 3rd figure test in 2007, I can say that I completely disagree. Figures are much harder. There's a LOT more wiggle room when the tracings aren't being scrutinized for clean turns and edges.

[daisies]

Thank you to those of you who clarified what I said about the step-sequence requirement of performing each turn and step twice. To answer lovepairs' question, there is no requirement on revolutions of a twizzle, although by definition a twizzle is a full 360 degrees. And techskater is correct about the rotational requirement in bulletin #2.

Notice in 1445 that the "variety of turns/steps" bulletin is "compulsory" -- meaning, a skater must fulfill that bulletin in order to get credit for any other bulletins. (And in order to get an L2, they have to have not only that bulletin but one other as well.)

Anyway, that was essentially my entire point in this whole thing -- skaters need to learn as many types of turns and steps as possible to be able to keep up with the new world order of skating. And that's why I am all for the proposal as it stands now. Either way, it's cool it has sparked so much conversation!

[daisies]

Wow. As someone who passed her Junior MIF, Senior MIF and 3rd figure test in 2007, I can say that I completely disagree. Figures are much harder. There's a LOT more wiggle room when the tracings aren't being scrutinized for clean turns and edges.

I have to agree with manleywoman on this -- big time. Figures are way -- WAY -- harder. Seriously.

I don't understand how you can say people "think" figures are harder because they are "literally scrutinized." I don't think it, I know it. Like manleywoman, I have done both. I passed the Senior MIF at age 29 and the 8th figure test at age 36. The "literally scrutinized" part is kinda the essence of why they are harder, so to dismiss that fact is difficult for me to comprehend.

In figures, your edges and turns must be clean, and they must be traced. And in later figure tests (5th and up), skaters have to get around two complete circles on one foot -- without any extra pushes -- and perform turns within, make those turns clean, and trace them. How exactly is that on even par with MIF? Skaters can get away with a lot in MIF because of the speed involved in each move (you get seven introductory steps, for goodness sake!) and the lack of scrutiny of the actual print on the ice.

Do you know how hard it is to lay down your first tracing of a figure WRONG and then have use your second tracing to correct it? The judges then get to look at it, see your glaring error and hope that you corrected it, well, correctly -- in one shot. Oh, and did I mention your turns on both circles have to be lined up with each other? And the sizes of your circles have to be even, and the sides of them -- both sides -- have to be lined up? And God forbid you cross your tracings in your center, or toe push, or create any snow or scrapes in your edges or turns.

In MIF, if you mess up your first, say, counter, guess what? You get the whole length of the arena to do, like, four more of them without the reminder to the judges that you screwed up! Your turns don't have to be lined up on a long axis -- it would be nice if they were, but if you're off by a bit, no one will really notice. Got a spoon at the top of your bracket? So what! No one will see it! Got bunny ears at the top of your bracket? Too bad! No one will see it! (Kudos to those of you who know what spoons and bunny ears are!)

Anyway, major wiggle room.

I'm not saying MIF aren't hard. They are. But figures are miles harder. Miles.

[techskater]

Here, here, Daisies! We don't call them spoons, we call them waves, but same thing!! LOL!

We were working on the inner counters on my lesson this morning, and my coach goes out on the ice and looks down at the print and says, nope - look you got a BIG flat coming out of the first counter. Go skate them again. Guess what - Figures Gold medallist! Ha!

[Debbie S]

Hopefully, if these new moves are actually proposed and passed, they will help keep skaters from moving up too soon. With all due respect, I don't think it's your (or anyone's) business to judge if someone 'moves up too soon', and I don't think it should be the responsibility and function of the USFSA to manipulate the rate at which skaters move up. That's a decision made by the skaters and their families and coaches.

And even if a skater gets held back by harder MIF, that doesn't mean they're not going to work on more advanced freestyle skills, to be ready when they do move up. I think we can all agree that different coaches have different philosophies and when it's best to start working on certain jumps and spins, etc. There are always going to be kids who for whatever reason work on skills they may not quite be ready for (based on their mastery of prerequisite skills). How many of us on this board have seen Pre-Prelim and Prelim skaters trying to do Biellmans and change-edge spins (and I mean in their comp programs, not just practice) b/c their coaches want to get them ready for IJS, and the kids don't even have good basic spinning skills? How many have seen kids working on doubles when they don't even have their axel consistent?

I have a problem with the assumption that a 9 or 10-year-old passing Novice MIF is a sign that standards are too lenient. Some kids are just really good at MIF. Some kids are just very good at skating. The girl who won Int Ladies at JN this year (who also won Juv last year) is 10. I don't know what level she is in MIF, but she's obviously gotten through at least Intermediate. Now, I'm not in favor of 14-year-old Nat'l (Senior) champions and generally I'm not a big fan of 'baby ballerinas', but I don't deny that some kids pick up the technical skills really quickly. IMO, IJS makes it easier for younger kids to win titles b/c it doesn't really value maturity, power, expression, etc, that older skaters have an advantage in (and makes programs more interesting). Judging programs has become an exercise in adding up the elements points, and I think that's one of the reasons a lot of casual fans have lost interest.

But remember, even in figures, you had instances of very young kids passing the high-level tests. I think I read that Priscilla Hill passed her 8th figure test when she was 9, or 10, or something like that.

Oh, and as far as judges not seeing skid marks or wiggles in turns, when I tested Silver MIF a few months ago, my judges sure did, from the opposite side of the ice. A judge who is in her 70s pointed out that some of my BO 3's were turned off the wrong edge (after my coach dissected my 3-turns at my next lesson, she determined that I was changing my edge at the last minute before the turn - the shape of the lobes looked fine but when you bent down to look at the tracing, you could see it). I'm not saying figures weren't harder (I agree, they were), but I don't think skaters get a free pass on MIF tests. And there are plenty of judges out there that see a mistake on 1 counter (or other turn or step) and either require a reskate or fail the move, and possibly the test, esp on Novice and up.

[CanadianAdult]

Notice in 1445 that the "variety of turns/steps" bulletin is "compulsory" -- meaning, a skater must fulfill that bulletin in order to get credit for any other bulletins. (And in order to get an L2, they have to have not only that bulletin but one other as well.)


I'm in Canada but this is ISU and it applies to everyone. This is how our rink's tech specialists read it. In order to get at least a level 1, meaning that your step sequence even is counted, you need 4 varieties of turns. Otherwise, if you don't have 4 turns, each done twice, it's a big fat zero and zero points. I don't know anyone doing step sequences other than the guys, all the girls are busy pulling their legs over their heads and pumping up their spiral sequences.

I can see why USFSA has introduced twizzles at an early level. It's good for the potential of ice dancers and synchro and also to start with a variety of turns early. It's been interesting reading this thread.
.

[techskater]

I wasn't saying all 10 year olds don't deserve to pass their higher level MIF test, there just seem to be more and more younger kids passing high level tests. For the most part, I don't see the "performance" aspect from many of the younger senior test skaters (9, 10, 11) that is expected from those that are 13, 14, 15+.

Even though I know it's going to make it harder for me to finish out and attain my Gold medal in moves, I think the changes are beneficial for the changes in skating.

[daisies]

With all due respect, I don't think it's your (or anyone's) business to judge if someone 'moves up too soon'
I'm sorry, but you seemed to have missed my point. I won't restate it; it's all there. But that's OK, we can agree to disagree! :)

I wasn't saying all 10 year olds don't deserve to pass their higher level MIF test, there just seem to be more and more younger kids passing high level tests. For the most part, I don't see the "performance" aspect from many of the younger senior test skaters (9, 10, 11) that is expected from those that are 13, 14, 15+.
ITA.

Oh, and as far as judges not seeing skid marks or wiggles in turns, when I tested Silver MIF a few months ago, my judges sure did, from the opposite side of the ice.
I didn't say they didn't see skids in MIF tests -- I can sure see skids from across the rink when I judge, and I can see when a skater changes edge, and the skater will fail the move if those mistakes are present throughout -- I just said a skid was one of many things that are forbidden in figures, on top of the rest of the laundry list.

What I did say couldn't be seen in MIF from the railing, if you reread my post, were spoons and bunny ears. Spoons = bad. Bunny ears = good.

[doubletoe]

I'm in Canada but this is ISU and it applies to everyone. This is how our rink's tech specialists read it. In order to get at least a level 1, meaning that your step sequence even is counted, you need 4 varieties of turns. Otherwise, if you don't have 4 turns, each done twice, it's a big fat zero and zero points.

I can see why USFSA has introduced twizzles at an early level. It's good for the potential of ice dancers and synchro and also to start with a variety of turns early. It's been interesting reading this thread.
.

Wow, that's definitely stricter than the published ISU rules.

The ISU's 2007-2008 "First Aid for Technical Specialists" document clarifies that the variety feature is mandatory to get level 2 or higher, not mandatory for level 1. Here's the wording under the description of the level-raising features:

Variety: Must include at least 4 different types of turns and 2 different types of steps. Each of these types of turns and steps must be executed at least twice during the sequence. Variety is mandatory. If not existing, the step sequence is a Level 1

[Ellyn]

These days it seems kids are plowing through the moves tests, enabling them to take the corresponding FS tests as soon as they can master each test's hardest element

I don't see that happening where I am. Yes, the kids often plow through the moves tests as quickly as they can, but they don't take the corresponding FS tests as soon as they can master each test's hardest element -- they wait to move up until they can do the elements that will make them competitive

Older kids may move up faster because they want to get to juvenile before they're 13 or to intermediate as soon as possible thereafter so they can compete at regionals even if they don't have all their double jumps. But the ones who are young and the ones who have reasonable hopes of good placements in qualifying competitions tend not to rush up to the next level until they get older or they actually do get those results.

And because of the penalties for underrotated jumps in the new judging system, I'm not seeing as many attempts at the harder jumps allowed at a given competition as I was a few years ago in the old system. Yeah, the kids are home working on the jumps (especially double axels, which often take several years to master), and they did that when they had to pass figure tests as well, but they no longer put the jumps in their programs if they're just "almost" there, and so they're less likely to overtrain them than they would a few years ago. That's more an effect of the new judging system than of the difficulty, or lack thereof, in the MITF tests.

Both recently in one region and a decade ago when I lived and skated in a different region in a different section, I see preliminary skaters working on intermediate MITF or intermediate skaters working on senior MITF. Not all of them, of course, but it's not at all uncommon.

Trends may be different in your area.

[pairman2]

Ellyn
It happens at my rink now. Intermediate kids worling on senior MIF certainly isn't a bad thing! Learning the MIF disciplines is a great 'freebee' for any kid or adult skater that wants to get a little advantage here or there. It makes the final product much easier on the eye for that respective level!

[vesperholly]

I'm not saying MIF aren't hard. They are. But figures are miles harder. Miles.
Well, here's something we can agree on! :)

[manleywoman]

I don't see that happening where I am. Yes, the kids often plow through the moves tests as quickly as they can, but they don't take the corresponding FS tests as soon as they can master each test's hardest element -- they wait to move up until they can do the elements that will make them competitive

Older kids may move up faster because they want to get to juvenile before they're 13 or to intermediate as soon as possible thereafter so they can compete at regionals even if they don't have all their double jumps. But the ones who are young and the ones who have reasonable hopes of good placements in qualifying competitions tend not to rush up to the next level until they get older or they actually do get those results.

This is how it is in my area too. And a lot of them, when they hit 18 and senior year in high school, decide to stop competing. So they take their final FS tests to just complete the tests. I've seen a lot of effortless Senior FS tests here, since the girls were easily landing a few triples at their last Regionals attempt, and they only need 2lutz for the Senior FS test.

[momsk8er]

Well, here's something we can agree on! :)
I too agree -- figures were a lot harder than moves! I hated those judges coming out on the ice in their little clip-on cleats and big Russian hats, peering down at your measly little scratches over their reading glasses! OOh the image makes my bones shiver even now!

[coskater64]

Figures are so much harder than field moves, starting over again doing both at the same time, I am shocked at how much more strength and control it takes to do basic figures correctly. The lower field moves tests are much easier by comparison. Moves APBFM & ABFM versus pre-1st figure test.:halo: :halo:

[Isk8NYC]

I too agree -- figures were a lot harder than moves! I hated those judges coming out on the ice in their little clip-on cleats and big Russian hats, peering down at your measly little scratches over their reading glasses! OOh the image makes my bones shiver even now!
Wow. That's kind of cool.

I took my Prel Figures back in 1986 and no one had cleats. They all wore long fur coats though - coaches and judges alike. (Outdoor rink)

[CanadianAdult]

Wow, that's definitely stricter than the published ISU rules.



Yes, definitely stricter, and maybe other rinks didn't interpret it that drastically. As you have all be discussing, marks are easier to get by doing spiral sequences and since the first requirement to get anything higher than a level 1 on step sequence was to have that variety, if you didn't have good strong rockers, or choctaws, the choreographer gave spiral sequences.

[lov2sk8]

Got bunny ears at the top of your bracket?.[/QUOTE]

Most coaches and skaters don't even know what bunny ears are. It's nice to know some still do.

[pairman2]

Reagrding whether figures are harder then MITF.

First, to each their own experience.

As someone who has never done figures though, I'll make a couple of 'outside observations'.
It seems that figures and MITF are very different. It's sort of like apples to oranges. They draw on very different physiological dynamics.

MITF, especially from the mid level on up, are very much an endurance test. They take a lot of 'wind' until you start to master each successive level. I'm sure figures take a lot of strength, but it's certainly a different type. I'm just starting to learn JRM 4 and after a full pass down the ice, my legs are burning! I can't think of anything I've seen in figures that would replicate that.

On the other hand, figures seem to be all about isometric control and fine motor control to an extent found no where in MITF.

The two disciplines accomplish two very different functions with a little bit of overlap. That's one reason why I'm an advocate of making the sport of 'figures' more available to those that want it although I have no immediate plans myself to take it up.

PS. Are there any figures patterns that elevate the heart rate? [aside from judge anxiety]

[lovepairs]

Thanks for the clarification, Daisies. Yes, I understand that it has to be a 360 degree turn, but as you mentioned there is nothing written about the number of "revolutions" for twizzles. Why do you think they clarify the number of revolutions in spins, but don't do it for twizzles?

About Figures vs. Moves, and about which one is harder? Let me first say, that I studied figures beginning at age 5, and would take them back over moves in a heart beat were it possible. Having said that let's take into consideration how difficult it is to layout a perfectly round eight (any figure) during a test without it looking like an egg. Very hard to do, but the judges not only required that the three's, or counter, for example, are in the exact right place (remember they threw down little markers on the ice while judging your tracings,) but they also looked for flow and posture, push offs, and the shape/geometry of your circles.

Have you ever seen roller skating tests where the geometry is marked right on the floor? Can you imagine the correct geometry for the moves actually laid down on the ice, and you have to skate over it correctly? All I'm saying is that with MIF the judges are far away from you and are not on top of your tracing scrutinizing your geometry. So, there is more wiggle room with Moves. However, if MIF are truly "mastered" it would require that the geometry be as spot on as it was required for figures. In this case, MIF would be just a difficult as figures.

[daisies]

Thanks for the clarification, Daisies. Yes, I understand that it has to be a 360 degree turn, but as you mentioned there is nothing written about the number of "revolutions" for twizzles. Why do you think they clarify the number of revolutions in spins, but don't do it for twizzles?
I'm not sure I understand your question, because, in my estimation, spins and twizzles have nothing to do with each other. A twizzle is a type of turn, the way a three-turn, rocker or counter is a type of turn. We know that three-turns, rockers and counters are 180-degree turns, and we don't need that clarified, right? Similarly, there shouldn't be a need to clarify a twizzle -- it's a 360-degree turn, period. If they were requiring double twizzles, then that would be two full revolutions -- period. (Luckily, they don't specify double twizzles! :))

[badaxel]

Have you ever seen roller skating tests where the geometry is marked right on the floor? Can you imagine the correct geometry for the moves actually laid down on the ice, and you have to skate over it correctly? All I'm saying is that with MIF the judges are far away from you and are not on top of your tracing scrutinizing your geometry. So, there is more wiggle room with Moves. However, if MIF are truly "mastered" it would require that the geometry be as spot on as it was required for figures. In this case, MIF would be just a difficult as figures.

I don't know very much about it, and I know that this is not your point, but I used to take roller skating lessons for a very brief time (maybe 12 lessons?) I remember there being the tracings in the middle of the rink. I'm pretty sure that's how they did it- you had to skate right over the tracings. I'm not sure though, because there was no way to adjust for the size of the skater. I do remember learning to do figure 8's the same way they are in ice skating, and I remember having to stay on the line. It would be interesting to see how roller skating has evolved compared to ice skating. Do they have MIF now, too? I wonder...

[kayskate]

Have you ever seen roller skating tests where the geometry is marked right on the floor? Can you imagine the correct geometry for the moves actually laid down on the ice, and you have to skate over it correctly?

As someone who (briefly) took roller figures lessons, it is not necessarily easy to stay on that pattern. Yes, it is there as a template and probably facilitates the process of laying down the first "tracing". However, turn placement is not on the pattern. You have to do that yourself. As I understand, roller skaters skate through chalk to leave marks on the floor that are scrutinized by the judges. Figs are a very active part of roller competition and separate medals are given out for figs.

Kay

[techskater]

Thanks for the clarification, Daisies. Yes, I understand that it has to be a 360 degree turn, but as you mentioned there is nothing written about the number of "revolutions" for twizzles. Why do you think they clarify the number of revolutions in spins, but don't do it for twizzles?


Because a twizzle is not a spin.

You cannot exit the twizzle early on two feet and have it count, so it IS specified to be at least 360 degrees

[Schmeck]

Back to the ice skating... LOL!

As a mom of a synchro skater, I'm a bit miffed at the single's chair for not considering the synchro chair in his clarification statement. These changes will also affect synchro - actually, most of the changes seem to be directly related to synchro, as these moves are what all the higher level teams are doing.

I think I might email USFSA about the oversight...

[lovepairs]

Because a twizzle is not a spin.

You cannot exit the twizzle early on two feet and have it count, so it IS specified to be at least 360 degrees

I've heard several people, including coaches, define a Twizzle as a traveling Spin. I suppose that's why I equate it with "revolutions." Thus the question about why the number of "revolutions" in a spin is specified, but not the number of "revolutions" for Twizzles within a footwork sequence.

So, the question is how do you separate, or give credit to, the person who does a "single" twizzle in the footwork as compared to the person who does a "triple" twizzle passage?

[manleywoman]

Back to the ice skating... LOL!

As a mom of a synchro skater, I'm a bit miffed at the single's chair for not considering the synchro chair in his clarification statement. These changes will also affect synchro - actually, most of the changes seem to be directly related to synchro, as these moves are what all the higher level teams are doing.


It's also what the singles kids are doing.

[techskater]

I've heard several people, including coaches, define a Twizzle as a traveling Spin. I suppose that's why I equate it with "revolutions." Thus the question about why the number of "revolutions" in a spin is specified, but not the number of "revolutions" for Twizzles within a footwork sequence.

So, the question is how do you separate, or give credit to, the person who does a "single" twizzle in the footwork as compared to the person who does a "triple" twizzle passage?

It is a way to describe it - a traveling spin, but it technically is not.

It counts towards your "1/3 of the step sequence being rotational" (> 360 degrees) if you are working on that feature and if well executed, the judge will give you bonus GOE if the rest of the sequence is good.

[dbny]

I don't know very much about it, and I know that this is not your point, but I used to take roller skating lessons for a very brief time (maybe 12 lessons?) I remember there being the tracings in the middle of the rink. I'm pretty sure that's how they did it- you had to skate right over the tracings. I'm not sure though, because there was no way to adjust for the size of the skater. ..

As someone who (briefly) took roller figures lessons, it is not necessarily easy to stay on that pattern. Yes, it is there as a template and probably facilitates the process of laying down the first "tracing". However, turn placement is not on the pattern. You have to do that yourself. As I understand, roller skaters skate through chalk to leave marks on the floor that are scrutinized by the judges. Figs are a very active part of roller competition and separate medals are given out for figs.

Kay

I was a serious roller dancer in the 60's, and tested and competed figures also. IIRC, there are two different sizes of circles painted on the floor. A smaller size for little kids, and a larger, standard size for everyone else. You had to have that line between your outside and inside wheels the whole way, and they sprinkled some kind of powder (don't remember it being chalk, because it wasn't white) on the floor to see your turn tracings.
Loops were also painted.