Silver Moves

[double3s]

eSkater and I have an ongoing #####, er, complaint session going on regarding the evil Silver Moves in the Field (Adult track, USFSA testing structure). This the third (of four) Moves tests for adults and I think it is orders of magnitude more difficult than Bronze moves, which were only slightly more difficult than preBronze moves.

The Silver Moves are:
1Eight-Step Mohawk Sequence
2 Forward and Backward Free Skating Cross Strokes
3 FO-BI 3-turns in the Field
4 FI-BO 3-turns in the Field
5 Forward Right- and Left-Foot Spirals
6 Forward and Backward Power Change of Edge Pulls

So anybody else think Silver moves are too big of a jump from Bronze moves?

(other levels are here: http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_rules/mif_test_elements_adult.htm)

[Hannahclear]

I think they are reasonable. Bronze moves are a mix of preliminary and pre-juvenile. Silver moves are a mix of pre-juvenile and juvenile. It seems to fit.

I say that as someone who has failed the test too. :lol:

[double3s]

I think they are reasonable. Bronze moves are a mix of preliminary and pre-juvenile. Silver moves are a mix of pre-juvenile and juvenile. It seems to fit.

I say that as someone who has failed the test too. :lol:

Haven't taken it yet ... will be *years* before I'm ready to test - wheras I tested (and passed) Bronze only 9 months after PreBronze.

[Hannahclear]

It's taking me longer too. I tested pre-bronze and bronze about nine months apart. I worked on Silver Moves for over a year before attempting. I did not come close to passing, but that was with the dreaded two major errors.

Given that there are only four levels of Adult testing, I don't know what it would be better to make it easier. We don't have an 8 level system, so shouldn't Silver be more a bar? It's definitely a big step up for most Adults, but I think it's possible for many.

[jazzpants]

Ask me again next year when I get around to actually practicing it. My coaches are currently too swamped with getting my act... er, program together for AN! :P I currently don't even have BI3's to speak off, though I do have consistent BO3's now. (Irony is that I sorta have a BI bracket. Go figure...)

But so far, given that I have not much of a turnout, the 8 step mohawks will be the death of me. Can I just be declare myself a "Bronze Lifer" now? :P :giveup:

[doubletoe]

I think you will find that once you pass Silver moves and start work on Gold moves, the increase in difficulty is that much all over again. It's sort of like the increase in difficulty and work load as you go from elementary school to junior high school, then high school. They assume you are also learning how to learn, so they give you a steeper learning curve each time. Standard track is even worse, so we are lucky to have the more lenient requirements we get on the adult tests (I had no idea until I passed my Adult Gold test, then took my first standard track test and got my first "retry").

[Terri C]

For me, it was a three year time frame between passing Pre Bronze moves and Bronze moves. Now I was doing competitions and such during that window of time too. I really had to stop competing for awhile and focus on the Bronze moves test alone to get it to passing.
As far as the Silver test goes, my coaches are "sneaking" patterns into my programs. Let's see, I have the 8 step in my freestyle, forward and back crossstrokes in my Bronze CM and my secondary coach is going to fight with all her might to get at RBO3 out of me in my Artistic program.

[vesperholly]

What exactly is your problem with the test? Which moves do you think are too much of a leap in skill from Bronze?

I noticed a huge difference going from Intermediate to Novice moves. Novice was the first test that I couldn't even do the patterns after passing Intermediate. Even Novice to Junior wasn't as bad.

[double3s]

What exactly is your problem with the test? Which moves do you think are too much of a leap in skill from Bronze?

I noticed a huge difference going from Intermediate to Novice moves. Novice was the first test that I couldn't even do the patterns after passing Intermediate. Even Novice to Junior wasn't as bad.

Well PB is basically edges, XOS, and Forward 3 turns. Bronze is more of the same + FI mohawk. By contrast, every single move in Silver has something new, including: FO mohawk, Backward 3 turns, crosssrokes and power pulls. There's not a single move in Silver that takes something already learned and just makes it harder (like going from prebronze crossovers in a figure 8 to bronze alternating power crossovers).

It's not so much that I think I can't do the moves (eventually) or that adults shouldn't learn them - it's that I think it introduces too many new things at once and makes it really difficult for the adult to progress. I actually think the whole adult structure is pretty flawed and would love to see it revamped, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

[mikawendy]

What exactly is your problem with the test? Which moves do you think are too much of a leap in skill from Bronze?

I noticed a huge difference going from Intermediate to Novice moves. Novice was the first test that I couldn't even do the patterns after passing Intermediate. Even Novice to Junior wasn't as bad.

I've heard the same from skaters I know who have passed Intermediate and have either passed, tested, or are working on Novice.

To answer your question about Silver--I notice that the big thing at Silver is that upper-body check is SOOOO much more critical to the proper execution of the moves than at the earlier levels (with the exception of the alternating threes that are no longer on the Pre-Bronze moves, in which checking is critical). I could do the power threes from the Bronze moves test with less upper-body check and use of shoulders than I feel like I need to properly execute the 3s in the field and 8-step from Silver.

At the same time, that's why I've come to love the 3s in the field (even though I'm not doing them to passing standard yet). Doing them has been teaching me to be REALLY conscious where my shoulders are (helps me on freestyle) and (I never thought I'd say this), I have come to really like BI3s. (Now BO3s are an entirely different matter...) Doing the 3s in the field has also REALLY improved my forward 3s.

[Skittl1321]

Well PB is basically edges, XOS, and Forward 3 turns. Bronze is more of the same + FI mohawk. By contrast, every single move in Silver has something new, including: FO mohawk, Backward 3 turns, crosssrokes and power pulls. There's not a single move in Silver that takes something already learned and just makes it harder (like going from prebronze crossovers in a figure 8 to bronze alternating power crossovers).



I haven't started really learning all the silver moves yet (I just do the back 3 turns for fun)- as I haven't passed bronze yet, but I disagree that there is no skill that was tested before but progressed. I think taking the forward 3 turns from the lower tests and turning them into back 3-turns is a progression in difficulty, but the same skill- they are both 3-turns. I also think taking a FI mohawk and moving it to a FO mohawk is a progression- it's still a mohawk, but a more difficult one.

I'm not really familiar with the cross strokes- but it seems that they take the basics from crossovers, so while the test is really difficult the edge pulls seem to be the only really "new" move on the test- the way the mohawks were the "new" move on the bronze test. Everything else seems to be based on something that came before it.

(I know that the spirals weren't on a previous test- but they are in the PB free test as an option, and to me the spirals seem to be a "gimmie" move- even though they are difficult to do for many adults- that's a pre-pre move. The skating skill is not hard, just the flexibility. )

[vesperholly]

The Silver Moves are:
1 Eight-Step Mohawk Sequence
2 Forward and Backward Free Skating Cross Strokes
3 FO-BI 3-turns in the Field
4 FI-BO 3-turns in the Field
5 Forward Right- and Left-Foot Spirals
6 Forward and Backward Power Change of Edge Pulls
Ok, looking at these moves compared to Bronze and previous elements:

8-step mohawk (silver) builds on 5-step mohawk (bronze)
Cross strokes are a mutation of crossovers, and the alternating BO edges are similar to BO cross strokes
Spirals - are these the edge ones from Prelim or straight-line spirals?
Edge pulls are also a mutation of stroking that gets introduced in Pre-Juv
3-turns in the field gets the same prep as standard tests, minus the alternating 3-turn pattern.

New elements for sure, but just because something doesn't directly relate to a move on the previous test doesn't mean that it doensn't belong there. These moves need to be introduced somewhere.

What would you change/rearrange?

[TimDavidSkate]

What would you change/rearrange?

Put the edge pulls somewhere in the beginning - those things are a killer at the end :giveup:

[Debbie S]

Put the edge pulls somewhere in the beginning - those things are a killer at the end Hmmm, I actually kind of like having them at the end, b/c they require a little less, shall we say, exactness, than the other moves. I'd rather get the really hard stuff (8-step and back 3s) over with first. My one complaint is that the power pulls and spirals seem like polar opposites - one requires stretching out muscles and the other requires pulling in and quickness - I might prefer to have the power pulls before the spirals, but having the moves in their current order hasn't been a problem for me. Now, as for the moves themselves, lol......


I think you will find that once you pass Silver moves and start work on Gold moves, the increase in difficulty is that much all over again.Really? Yikes, I've been thinking that Gold Moves might be easier than Silver, in the sense that when you master the technique for single 3-turns, double 3s will be relatively easy (not as steep a learning curve as learning back 3s to begin with). And when you get the movement and checking for the 8-step, you'll be able to do the brackets. I realize that Gold requires much more power and quickness than Silver, but as has been pointed out, Silver has a lot of 'new' skills (like Pre-Juv from Prelim) and then Gold builds on them. It seems that the kids I skate with take much less time to pass Juv MIF than Pre-Juv MIF (although having only 4 moves on Juv might have something to do with it) and Int also seems to come easier than Pre-Juv MIF for some kids.

I think part of the issue with the skills in Silver is that they are taken from 2 (well, 3 if you count the spirals) different standard track tests, and like with other adult MIF tests, sometimes certain moves were meant to follow, not complement, each other. For example, in Pre-Bronze, you have forward stroking and crossover figure 8s - in the standard track, they are on 2 different tests b/c the crossovers are designed to be an advancement of the stroking skill learned from the previous test. You also have the new 3-turn move (replacing the alt 3s) on Pre-Bronze - both that move and the alt 3s are designed to develop mastery of all of the forward 3-turns (whereas the waltz 8 on Pre-Prelim/Pre-B only tests the FO 3s), but on the standard track that skill is expected on the 2nd test (Prelim) and on the adult track it's the first. To me, it makes more sense to have the 3-turn move on the Bronze test (maybe replacing the power 3s) and the expectation would be for the turns to be done at a higher level (I recently saw a Pre-B test and the level at which the 3 turns were done would never have passed on the alt 3 move, and IMO, the passing standard really wasn't helping the skater in the long run). And having the 3-turns on the Bronze test would be a better lead-in to the 3-turns on Silver, just like the alt 3s on Prelim lead to the 3-turns on Pre-Juv.

As for the 8-step and cross strokes, I think you can justify them being on the Silver test b/c they build on moves on the Bronze test (5-step and the forward and back perim stroking - if you look at the progression of moves on the standard track tests, it seems that every level has at least one stroking move, increasing in difficulty as you go up). However, the power pulls are also sort of a building block for cross strokes (in fact, the PSA moves video recommends using power pulls to teach cross strokes), but on the adult track, those moves are on the same test, and learning them both at the same time is a challenge. I suspect that once you get the power pulls, it takes less time to get the cross strokes - probably part of the reason why it takes most kids less time to master Juv MIF than Pre-Juv.

[MusicSkateFan]

Hate to bring up an old subject but....... I think the removal of the consecutive 3's from the pre-bronze has contributed to the feeling of big jumps in the adult MITF test. For me, I really felt good about having learned those 3's before things got really difficult.

Each test has it's challenges and they all get harder for a reason. I am in the official "bracket and power circle hater's club" if anyone wants to join!:evil: :evil: :twisted: :twisted:

[double3s]

I think part of the issue with the skills in Silver is that they are taken from 2 (well, 3 if you count the spirals) different standard track tests, and like with other adult MIF tests, sometimes certain moves were meant to follow, not complement, each other. For example, in Pre-Bronze, you have forward stroking and crossover figure 8s - in the standard track, they are on 2 different tests b/c the crossovers are designed to be an advancement of the stroking skill learned from the previous test. You also have the new 3-turn move (replacing the alt 3s) on Pre-Bronze - both that move and the alt 3s are designed to develop mastery of all of the forward 3-turns (whereas the waltz 8 on Pre-Prelim/Pre-B only tests the FO 3s), but on the standard track that skill is expected on the 2nd test (Prelim) and on the adult track it's the first. To me, it makes more sense to have the 3-turn move on the Bronze test (maybe replacing the power 3s) and the expectation would be for the turns to be done at a higher level (I recently saw a Pre-B test and the level at which the 3 turns were done would never have passed on the alt 3 move, and IMO, the passing standard really wasn't helping the skater in the long run). And having the 3-turns on the Bronze test would be a better lead-in to the 3-turns on Silver, just like the alt 3s on Prelim lead to the 3-turns on Pre-Juv.

As for the 8-step and cross strokes, I think you can justify them being on the Silver test b/c they build on moves on the Bronze test (5-step and the forward and back perim stroking - if you look at the progression of moves on the standard track tests, it seems that every level has at least one stroking move, increasing in difficulty as you go up). However, the power pulls are also sort of a building block for cross strokes (in fact, the PSA moves video recommends using power pulls to teach cross strokes), but on the adult track, those moves are on the same test, and learning them both at the same time is a challenge. I suspect that once you get the power pulls, it takes less time to get the cross strokes - probably part of the reason why it takes most kids less time to master Juv MIF than Pre-Juv.

Yes, this is all what I was thinking, although you articulated it so much more eloquently than I could even attempt.

I know that Novice moves are a sort of watershed, and it's where a lot of kids drop out. I'm wondering if Silver moves aren't the equivalent watershed, and where we lose a lot of adults. I know Silver is a much lower level of difficulty than Novice, but it Silver seems to be a major sticking point for so many of us.

For the record, I don't intend to be one of those dropping out - I WILL test and pass Silver and Gold - and then I'll take Standard track as far as I can, too. In fact, I'm considering going back and doing the first 3 Standard tests before Silver because I think the Adult track has made me miss out on some of the basic skills I need for Silver (like those alternating 3s for checking and control).

[Debbie S]

I think the removal of the consecutive 3's from the pre-bronze has contributed to the feeling of big jumps in the adult MITF test. For me, I really felt good about having learned those 3's before things got really difficult. I agree that learning the forward 3-turns is important and builds skills for moves at higher levels (see my post). But remember, the reason the alt 3s were dropped from the adult track and replaced with the new pattern was not b/c adults had problems with 3-turns - it was the BI-FO choctaw transition at the line - the 'twisty' movement is very difficult for adults, who are less flexible and tend to be more closed-hipped than kids. The new 3-turn move requires the same 3-turns but it's done in an easier pattern.

As I said in my post, I think there's a strong case for moving that to the Bronze test, and then really requiring the turns to be done well (at the top of the lobes, on edges, etc) and power to be generated on the 'crossover' lobe, like with the power 3s. Right now, actually, it's a bit confusing as to whether the 'cross' notation on the diagram of the 3-turn pattern means a crossover or a cross-front. I've seen this move tested twice and they each did it differently - 1 skater did the BI weight shift transition and a crossover (like on the power 3s) before stepping to the FI edge and the other did basically stepped to the BI and BO edges and did a cross front, with no power generated, which made the move very slow. Both skaters passed.....but it would make it easier for both the skaters and the judges if that was clarified on some official video.

And since power 3s have that same choctaw transition as the alt 3s (although speed makes it a bit easier), I'd say get rid of that move and put the 3-turns in there. Yes, I know that power is an important skill, but since 4 of the 5 moves on Bronze MIF have power as a primary focus, I don't think replacing one of them would be a big deal.

But I don't make the rules....;) :giveup:

[BatikatII]

Not to be rude or anything but I think people should stop deliberating over whether or not there is a big jump and just get on with practising them:lol: - everything is doable eventually. And they make such a difference to your basic skating.

I went from level 2 dance moves (UK) (there were only two skills in each level in dance moves- I think level 2 included forward outside edges and forward crossrolls, or maybe it was a change of edge thing can't remember), directly to what was interbronze field moves (now level 4 skate moves) (due to a quirk of testing changes). IB field moves had 6 skills that all had to have power and flow ,including alternating FO3's (no xovers between), alternating FI3's with a back Xover between. Forward and back power pulls the length of rink on each foot, FO to FI changes of edge and FI to FO changes of edge, Back cross strokes (max of 6-8 to cover length of rink) and the one I had most trouble with, BO3 /mohawk, repeat in circle in both directions which had to have power and flow i.e approx 4-6 repeats in a large circle. I didn't worry about the massive jump in skills - I just knew I wanted to pass (as otherwise I'd have had to go back to do level 3 of the new moves) and put in a couple of months intensive work to do so.

The new moves (UK) have just 4 skills in each level and I'm now also going back and learning the new level 3 moves which I missed out on as they will help with my level 5 moves, although I'll never have to test the level 3 or 4.

I think your skills number 3 and 4 in silver are now on our level 3 test if they are the ones where you do a FO turn and then the BI on the other foot (and vice versa) rather than a double 3 turn on same foot. Personally I find the double 3 turns (now on our level 5) easier than these, but probably because I haven't practised them much since they weren't on the test I was taking.:D

UK adults take same tests to same standards as kids. I never thought I'd be taking the IB FM's let alone passing them, as they seemed completely unattainable when I started. I started skating at 38 (now over 45) and have below average flexibility and turnout, so if I can do it anyone can!:D :D

[Ellyn]

Hate to bring up an old subject but....... I think the removal of the consecutive 3's from the pre-bronze has contributed to the feeling of big jumps in the adult MITF test. For me, I really felt good about having learned those 3's before things got really difficult.

Well, I've been working on the standard preliminary test (still haven't passed it yet) at the same time as the silver moves, and the alternating threes are definitely the biggest challenge for me. Remind me of why I quit the first time when I couldn't get the threes-to-center on the first figure test 30+ years ago. But they do help with the forward parts of the silver/prejuv threes.

Each test has it's challenges and they all get harder for a reason. I am in the official "bracket and power circle hater's club" if anyone wants to join!:evil: :evil: :twisted: :twisted:

If and when I do pass the silver moves, which is looking less and less likely to be this year, I definitely expect the brackets and the CW forward power circles to be my biggest stumbling blocks on gold.

[Terri C]

Hate to bring up an old subject but....... I think the removal of the consecutive 3's from the pre-bronze has contributed to the feeling of big jumps in the adult MITF test. For me, I really felt good about having learned those 3's before things got really difficult.

I can't help but agree on this. I really think suffering 18 months of alternating three hell helped somewhat on power threes and my three year stint in power three planet is sorta helping on the threes in the field, even if I'm only dabbling on them for the time being.

[jazzpants]

Hate to bring up an old subject but....... I think the removal of the consecutive 3's from the pre-bronze has contributed to the feeling of big jumps in the adult MITF test. For me, I really felt good about having learned those 3's before things got really difficult. I'll also agree on the alt 3's too, though I would have put them in the Bronze Moves test instead (and the power 3's should be on the SILVER moves test.)

Each test has it's challenges and they all get harder for a reason. I am in the official "bracket and power circle hater's club" if anyone wants to join!:evil: :evil: :twisted: :twisted:I'll agree with the "power circles haters" club -- well, at least the back crossovers part. And the speed for the Gold Moves thing is too scary for me, even though I'm getting better. (Of course, it could also very well be that I started hating them around the time my secondary coach had me doing power circles, but had me pitted against someone who JUST PASSED her Gold Moves a couple of weekends ago!!! Now THAT is evil!!! :twisted: )

[dbny]

the reason the alt 3s were dropped from the adult track and replaced with the new pattern was not b/c adults had problems with 3-turns - it was the BI-FO choctaw transition at the line - the 'twisty' movement is very difficult for adults, who are less flexible and tend to be more closed-hipped than kids. The new 3-turn move requires the same 3-turns but it's done in an easier pattern.

Do you know for a fact that this is the reason? As someone who has struggled with F alt threes for years, I found the new Pre-B pattern much easier, but not because the Choctaw was missing. It's easier for me because the lobe on which each three is done is much smaller, thereby requiring less control. Besides, if you do the figures transition from BI edge to FO edge on the FO alt threes, you wil not be doing a Choctaw and turnout is not an issue. Of course, I'm struggling with that too!

I agree with cross strokes being built on the F and B XO patterns in Pre-Bronze, and I think one reason they are in Silver is that skaters are allowed to pass Pre-B without a solid underpush. That underpush, done with the O edge, is what drives the cross strokes.

[Bill_S]

I remember all the b****ing about alt-3s when they were on the pre-bronze test - and I was also one who disliked them. For an 'encouragement test', it took me three years to go from beginner to pass pre-bronze moves. Those alt-3s seemed like a huge and unfair first hurdle for most skaters.

Once I got past the pre-bronze, I passed bronze the year after, then silver the following year. That progression went smoothly.

However gold eludes me. It's been a year or two since I've passed silver moves, and I don't feel any urgency to test gold. Therefore I've been neglecting practice for the next test, and avoiding the still-tenuous elements (can we just say LBO brackets?) - perhaps out of self-preservation.

[GordonSk8erBoi]

Do you know for a fact that this is the reason? As someone who has struggled with F alt threes for years, I found the new Pre-B pattern much easier, but not because the Choctaw was missing. It's easier for me because the lobe on which each three is done is much smaller, thereby requiring less control. Besides, if you do the figures transition from BI edge to FO edge on the FO alt threes, you wil not be doing a Choctaw and turnout is not an issue. Of course, I'm struggling with that too!

I agree with cross strokes being built on the F and B XO patterns in Pre-Bronze, and I think one reason they are in Silver is that skaters are allowed to pass Pre-B without a solid underpush. That underpush, done with the O edge, is what drives the cross strokes.

I don't understand what you mean about "figures transition" above, could you explain?

[doubletoe]

Due to the logical succession of skills built into the standard track tests, I honestly think they should have the adults test the standard track MIF tests but just have a lower passing standard for the adults. I have been hurting on the Intermediate MIF test because of the one move that had no precursor at all on the adult track (but it did have a precursor on the Juvenile test).
The only exception I would make would be to put the spiral move on the Juvenile test for the adults, to mirror its position as part of the Adult Silver MIF test. I agree with the reasoning behind putting the spirals later in the adult MIF test track, i.e, that lack of flexibility--particularly in the men--should not prevent an adult from competing at Adult Nationals in Bronze.

[jazzpants]

Due to the logical succession of skills built into the standard track tests, I honestly think they should have the adults test the standard track MIF tests but just have a lower passing standard for the adults.That's what my secondary coach's suggested too! Great minds think alike!!! ;)

The only exception I would make would be to put the spiral move on the Juvenile test for the adults, to mirror its position as part of the Adult Silver MIF test. I agree with the reasoning behind putting the spirals later in the adult MIF test track, i.e, that lack of flexibility--particularly in the men--should not prevent an adult from competing at Adult Nationals in Bronze.Lack of flexibility in the men? Then you should see the adult men skaters from my neck of the woods! They're WAAAAY more flexible than the ladies here!!! In fact, until recently, the men at my rink were the ones doing the Y-spirals! :P :lol: (Now, we have 2-3 women doing Y-Spirals now, but one doesn't compete. And I'm trying to learn to do one myself and can do them off ice.)

[Ellyn]

The only exception I would make would be to put the spiral move on the Juvenile test for the adults, to mirror its position as part of the Adult Silver MIF test. I agree with the reasoning behind putting the spirals later in the adult MIF test track, i.e, that lack of flexibility--particularly in the men--should not prevent an adult from competing at Adult Nationals in Bronze.

Good points.

I suppose the other option would be to keep the pre-preliminary and preliminary spiral moves where they are but to lower the passing standard for adults so that the free foot would just need to be, say, above the level of the skating knee rather than at least hip level.

[double3s]

Due to the logical succession of skills built into the standard track tests, I honestly think they should have the adults test the standard track MIF tests but just have a lower passing standard for the adults. I have been hurting on the Intermediate MIF test because of the one move that had no precursor at all on the adult track (but it did have a precursor on the Juvenile test).
The only exception I would make would be to put the spiral move on the Juvenile test for the adults, to mirror its position as part of the Adult Silver MIF test. I agree with the reasoning behind putting the spirals later in the adult MIF test track, i.e, that lack of flexibility--particularly in the men--should not prevent an adult from competing at Adult Nationals in Bronze.

The further I get into the test system, the more I agree with this. I'm quite impressed with how the skills flow logically in the Standard Moves and how they track quite well with the Dance levels. Adult track is not nearly as well thought out.

[mikawendy]

I have been hurting on the Intermediate MIF test because of the one move that had no precursor at all on the adult track (but it did have a precursor on the Juvenile test).

When/if I get to that test level in moves (or just before then), I'm planning on learning that missing move as well, for the exact reason that it will prepare me for that move. I already have enough trouble with checking after BO3s as it is, I figure I will need all the help I can get! :lol: :frus: :lol: :frus:

[jazzpants]

I have been hurting on the Intermediate MIF test because of the one move that had no precursor at all on the adult track (but it did have a precursor on the Juvenile test).Thus the reason why I'm now playing around with back power 3's from the Juv test. Been doing that on and off for a while... :evil: (Once in a blue moon, I get a lesson on it. It's usually when primary coach is bored and wants a change of pace.)

[techskater]

We have had summer classes where our coach covers moves not covered in the adult track to get us comfortable with them and ready for whatever test we are working on and makes up moves-like exercises to help us. We worked the power threes on circles and she had us do a serpentine figure type of moves pattern (without the turns) for us to get us comfortable with layout of the counters and rockers. The people working on Bronze and Silver got to keep working on the serpentine move and those working on Gold or higher worked on the counters and rockers. She also had us patching threes, brackets, counters, rockers, forward and back double threes, etc to get us comfortable with the control of those various turns so when working on the moves, it's MUCH easier.

Personally, I think if you are struggling on the Silver test with the threes in the field, have your coach teach you to patch the threes. It will help your control and you'll get it figured out a lot quicker than fighting with the moves as patch will teach control.

[coskater64]

What Techskater says rings very true, I am working on all the adult tests to rebuild my skills and muscles after such a long lapse of time not having those muscle be able to fire. Doing simple figure 8's forward and backwards is very helpful for learning how to check and doing the 8's with the 3 turn-1st figure test really reinforces holding edges keeping arms low and core control. I do figures first and moves second, the moves are much easier after figures.

I prefer the order of the standard tests but I think the adult test structure is okay. If adults were to do the standard the one change would need to be the preliminary spirals on the gold, and just offer an adult and masters version as they have in dance. A spiral has to come to hip height or it isn't really a spiral...maybe there could be some flexibility on the straightness of the leg and the arch of the back. As someone who has a new pivot point I am slightly aware of the spiral issue as with everything time and practice generally prevail. To this day I think taking the Novice move off the gold test was a bad idea, that move done at a juvenile standard requires that you have the idea of the move, it was one of the only move that tested quickness and it give you a good idea of what was to come. But that's just MHO.

[lov2sk8]

Due to the logical succession of skills built into the standard track tests, I honestly think they should have the adults test the standard track MIF tests but just have a lower passing standard for the adults.

I have been saying this for years. My old coach couldn't figure out why I even wanted to test adult track. I always had to remind him it was for the free skate test. He used to make me pass standard first then I could go back and test adult moves. The progression of the standard moves are better thought out

[miraclegro]

The biggest thing i remember from Adult Silver moves was the blasted 8-step mohawk. I only wish that had been put in the test a little later in the order to let those legs warm up a little more. That was always my hardest challenge, and i stumbled right away. Thought i failed, but i did well enough on the others to pass. But it wasn't my first try on the test, though.

Persistance is the key.

[slusher]

I noticed the comment about Novice moves and how they introduce things that are brand new. In Canada there is the same phenomenon, aka "snakes and ladders". Kids hit the wall at the Junior Silver Skills test because they have to learn loops, all eight and do them down the ice with pulls inbetween. They've gone through preliminary, jr bronze, senior bronze without a hint of anything loopish and then BAM! I've always seen the loops taught as a patch exercise first, which is a good thing.

There is also a smaller leap between preliminary and junior bronze, one reason being because of senior bronze. Junior and Senior bronze share the same power circles exercise, it can be done two ways one for Jr and one for Sr, but coaches are now teaching the senior version at junior, and you're allowed to do the senior version at junior, I'm confusing you. This takes longer but then it makes senior bronze go faster as then you only need to learn two patterns, not three.

FYI, US Adult Silver = Canadian Junior Bronze, it's all back 3 turns.

[g0t2sk8]

Double3s,

I agree with Doubletoe. Every level to me feels like "What the heck?!?"
But I find as I practice more at each level it gets easier. I thought that Bronze moves were hard. When I started Silver moves Bronze was fun to practice for a change. I have passed the Silver MIF and I play with Gold moves. I am much more at ease with Silver than Gold, and don't mind Silver so much now.

I think that is the draw (and sometimes drawback) with this sport. It gives you so much to work on, and it can be hard at times...but then the rewards are like nothing I have ever experienced too.

Hang in there and keep at it. Before you know it you will be more at ease.

[looplover]

It's not so much that I think I can't do the moves (eventually) or that adults shouldn't learn them - it's that I think it introduces too many new things at once and makes it really difficult for the adult to progress. I actually think the whole adult structure is pretty flawed and would love to see it revamped, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

Strongly, strongly disagree. I do not believe in setting limitations for adult skaters in that way, especially regarding moves. We are no less mentally able to process these things than kids (and I might say in a way we might have more focus). As a group, I believe we are no less physically able to do it. I know too many gold level skaters in their late 40s and 50s to think otherwise.

The bar must be kept high for adults. Nobody is forcing anyone to go through the tests...

I'll test silver moves after bronze FS (unless I fail bronze FS in 2 weeks, then I'll work on both together). Everyone has their own issues with the test elements. For me - I can't do power pulls. At all. But, I've got the 8-step mohawk down in both directions. So that's an issue.

[Debbie S]

As a group, I believe we are no less physically able to do it. I know too many gold level skaters in their late 40s and 50s to think otherwise.Well, I strongly, strongly disagree with that statement. Did you skate as a kid? When did those Gold skaters in their 40s and 50s start skating? How many hourse a week do you (and they) practice?

We've been through this countless times here on the forum, and I don't want to dredge up everything again, but.....skating as an adult is VERY different from skating as a kid. First, adults generally have less time to practice. Yes, there are exceptions, but for most adults, it's impossible to skate as much as kids - most of the kids I skate with skate 5 or 6 days a week, at least 2 sessions each day/evening. And they can skate more during the summers, b/c they're free during the day. Not too many adults can do that - for financial, family, work reasons, etc. That's why instituting the MIF requirement was so controversial - it wasn't that adult skaters didn't want to improve and didn't want challenges, but is it fair to expect adults to meet the same requirements as kids when adults have more limitations? Which leads me to....

Physical limitations - it's much harder to learn this sport as an adult than as a kid. We are taller, heavier, and less flexible and it's much harder to achieve the balance point on your blades for most skills. Yes, we can learn back 3's and such, but it takes much longer. And the older you are when you start skating, the harder it is. For most adults, there really is a ceiling - where it is varies, but it's there (kids have a ceiling too, but generally it's higher than those of adults). Perhaps if we could skate hours and hours a day, we might be able to raise the ceiling, but that's pretty much impossible given the issues I mentioned above.

I agree that if we're going to have tests, the standard should be appropriate for the level. Passing each test should mean something - to say you're a Gold level skater should mean that you've achieved a very high level of skill. But while I agree with having high expectations for adults, I do think that parts of some of the adult moves test are a bit off-kilter for reasons that I mentioned in my earlier post. Sometimes the sequence is a bit odd. I think it could be improved somewhat. And I think we need to recognize that adult skaters are different from kids, and that the adult testing track is different (in terms of moves chosen as well as passing standards) for that reason.

[teresa]

This is a touchy subject. =-0

I agree that learning skills as an adult is challenging. However, I hate the idea that I'm limited because I'm an adult, because I don't believe this.

I didn't skate as a child and I am trying to do some novice (Adult Gold) skills. Of course, they're not test passable, but I am trying them. My coach has me learn skills on the same track as the kids. Some skills come easier than others, but I gotta think this is true nomatter what your age.

So. . . I agree that being adult has challenges, but I don't agree that we are limited because we are. Even if you don't reach your dreams you can come close if you try. I'd rather fail trying than be sucessful and not.

teresa

[jazzpants]

Strongly, strongly disagree. I do not believe in setting limitations for adult skaters in that way, especially regarding moves. I think where you're losing focus on (and what I think double3s is alluding to) is that for the Silver Moves test, there are NO point of reference to draw a lot of the moves from. Sure, for the 3 in the fields, if you were "fortunate" (depend on your mindset) enough to take the PreBronze moves back when it had the alt-3's from prelim moves, you already have a head start on the 3's in the field in Silver Moves. (And if not, then at least the FO3 part of the forward power 3's from the Bronze Moves test.) And if you don't have lower back problems, you've probably already got a good start on the spirals move element back when you were in LTS. Everything else though, you have no previous tests to start from, so this is where the challenge lies in the Silver Moves test.

I think that was double3's point, not whether or not adult have just as much capability as kids to learn these MITF. (And I will leave the topic as is... b/c the other topic (the adult vs. kids thing) is one of those topics that will definitely end up having ISk8NYC (or some other moderator) locking up this thread! Of course, this is my experience of being on this board for years!!! LOL!!! :P :twisted: :lol: )

(And now back to pretending that I'm not reading this thread b/c I'm not even working on this test... well, don't tell my coaches that. They have other ideas. Of course, they also think I have copious spare time to waste... :roll: )

[Thin-Ice]

There is nothing that says you can't test on both tracks at the same time. So, if you think the adult track progression is too difficult, or skills that are introduced on the standard track would help you... take both sets of tests.... or if you choose not to test, just work your way through both sets of tests in a ladder pattern.

The way I see it -- and this is JUST my OPINION -- Pre-Pre and PB moves are essentially the same difficulty level and skills are pretty comparable, so you can work on both at the same time. Then do Preliminary, then Bronze, then Pre-Juvenile, then Silver, the Juvenile, then Gold and you end up at Intermediate. And despite what many people say Gold and Intermediate may LOOK like the same test with Intermediate requiring "just 0.2" more to pass, but the quality of skating expected is higher throughout.. not just on the elements.

It took me 5 years of working on and off then a full year of steady work on Silver (and two attempts) to pass, but I did finally. I've also been working on Juveniles moves all that time. And strangely enough, passing the Silver MIF was such a feeling of accomplishment for me, that I no longer think of Juvenile as "not happening in this lifetime" which also leads to the idea I may start working on Gold MIF someday. (Not just yet... I have enough to deal with right now).

Now back to our regularly-scheduled discussions....

[looplover]

Well, I strongly, strongly disagree with that statement. Did you skate as a kid? When did those Gold skaters in their 40s and 50s start skating? How many hourse a week do you (and they) practice?

...... But while I agree with having high expectations for adults, I do think that parts of some of the adult moves test are a bit off-kilter for reasons that I mentioned in my earlier post. Sometimes the sequence is a bit odd. I think it could be improved somewhat. And I think we need to recognize that adult skaters are different from kids, and that the adult testing track is different (in terms of moves chosen as well as passing standards) for that reason.

I didn't really skate as a kid. When it came time for private lessons my parents pulled me out, so I only got as far as backwards crossovers. I went back to it in my 20s and got to ISI 4. Then went back to it again at 37 or so and now I'm going to test Bronze FS. I hadn't competed until my 39th birthday (literally) and hadn't set foot on a freestyle session until I was 37.Unfortunately due to financial constraints I only practice twice a week.

I agree that the sequence may be odd in adult track and standard track might be better, that makes sense to me as doubletoe explained it.

My point, though, is that we shouldn't lower the bar all that much for adults. I absolutely believe that most of skating is mental and a lot of times when we don't progress it's due to fear, not physical limitations. When it comes to moves, that fear manifests as tension, not bending enough, lack of speed, etc. The testing structure shouldn't be changed based on that! I say this even though my knee injury causes a locked spiral skating leg to radiate pain. But I fell on my kneecap - that would have hurt as a kid too.

I'm talking moves and not freestyle. The odds of me doing a double jump at this point are slim; I don't practice enough. I'll certainly never get a double axel. But can I pass Gold moves? Definitely...someday. And I'm sure as hell no Sascha Cohen...

[BatikatII]

I have to agree with looplover and teresa here in that you shouldn't limit adults because you think some adults can't do the skills. And if the progression is not as you think it should be there is nothing to stop any adult learning the additional skills that lead to them, taken from the US standard track is there? You don't have to test them but you can certainly learn them.

I never skated as a kid and took my first ever LTS lessons at 36. I thought the UK interbronze (now level 4 - used to be 8 levels in total so about halfway but two new levels have been added recently) field moves looked absoutely impossible but 8 years later I passed them and am working on the next level. Of course it's taken me longer than most kids but part of that was because I didn't work on them as I was busy with dance and free skating and didn't need to pass them. The kids (and adults in UK) have to pass the moves equivalent to the level of their freeskating in order to compete. My moves are now several levels above what my free skating is, or is ever likely to be but I'll continue to test moves and am delighted to be able to say I am level 4 in moves which are the same as the ones the kids do, to the same standards. That is a real feeling of achievement which I don't think I would have had from a dumbed down version or an 'adult track' version of moves.

In fact I can't see the point of US adult track moves if they are basically selected from the standard track anyway. And personally, I'd prefer to attain a lower level but know I'd passed them to the standard level, than to be on paper a 'higher' standard but know that actually they weren't up to the same passing standard as the kids - but I know there are many adults who feel differently.

The big danger with altering the moves because certain skills are more difficult for adults is that while that is probably generally true, determining 'which' skills are more difficutl for adults is not easy as it is likely to vary between adults. I have back, hip and knee problems yet the real reason I had problems with back 3's was because I never practised them. I didn't have any particular problems with the alternating FO3's and yet I dislike mohawks while friends at similar level hate 3 turns and love mohawks and find them easy. Despite knee problems I love doing drags (lunges) but I have adult friends who think they'll never be able to do one.

Anyway - kudos to all who take and pass any tests as an adult.:bow:

Just a thought on kid skaters. Daughter who started at same time as me is now practising for the new level 9 moves although she only needs level 5 (her freeskating level ) to compete. She has 3 half hour lessons per week (same as me - I used to have more than her as hers were shared until recently) and practices probably less than I do - maybe a max of two hours practice a week and usually less than that.
So why is she more advanced than me - well all the usual reasons of adult bodies having to overcome fear and bad muscle memory and old injuries and less flexibility etc. (but mostly fear!) But I'm still glad to know I'm treated for testing purposes as a 'skater' and not as an 'adult skater' and if I can get to level 5 or 6 moves I'll be thrilled. I have adult skater friends who have done it (having learned as adults starting after age 30).

[Kim to the Max]

So, just my $.02....

I can understand the different standards for adults and kids, for a lot of what others have said...however....I think there is also a difference between adults who began skating as adults, and adults who began skating as a kid. For my own situation, I skated as a kid, so when I started with my coach, she asked me if we were doing standard or adult track...I of course said standard track (I'm working on Intermediate moves, it wouldn't even make sense for moves to do adult track....), because for me, I skated as a kid, I have the confidence on the ice and I know that I can do it....needless to say, my coach was ecstatic when I told her that :) My only issue at this point is my stamina which just isn't there yet...I'm still sucking wind at the end of my program...but even that will get better as I skate more!

[techskater]

The Adult tests were picked as they were because the committee who picked them felt those were the skills adults should have at a given level. These are the elements that the committee that drew up these tests thought were a good match for the FS level. Yes, the back threes can be hard, but should have been introduced long ago at some point and are the basis for spins and jumps. Yes, the 8-step can be hard, but it builds on the 5 step. Yes, the power pulls can be hard, but it helps for better spring in jumps (which is, at least in my mind, is a major difference between Bronze and Silver, not an Axel). Yes, the cross strokes can be hard, but those help build power and variability in stroking which you should see at the Silver level and is (should be) the other major difference between Bronze and Silver levels.

I am not great at MIF by a long shot, so it's not like they provide an advantage to me over other skaters. I am struggling with some of the finer points of the Novice test while I work on it casually. I will work on it seriously after ANs with the goal of passing before September.

[Hannahclear]

I'm wondering if Silver moves aren't the equivalent watershed, and where we lose a lot of adults.

My coach says that many adults have trouble passing Silver. I sure did! :lol: But given that it's the second to last Adult test, I really do think that the bar is acceptably high.

[Morgail]

I think every Moves test is 8O at first. I know I was that way with Bronze, but it eventually got easier. I'm finding the same is true with Silver. I agree with everyone who said that Silver builds on the lower Moves levels.

What has surprised me the most so far, is that on Gold, you have to suddenly do ALL the brackets. 3-turns are introduced over 3 levels, while all 8 brackets just show up out of the blue on Gold.

[techskater]

On the standard track test, they show up out of the blue on Intermediate. Brackets sort of build off your ability to do threes.

[coskater64]

But a bracket is just the opposite of a 3 turn...brackets facilitate doing counters and rockers which then allow you to do all the moves on the Sr.

Figures were the same-- the 2nd was all nice big circles and then suddenly on the 3rd you get loops!!:? Hello!!

It's just the way skating goes...:twisted:

[mikawendy]

I think every Moves test is 8O at first. I know I was that way with Bronze, but it eventually got easier. I'm finding the same is true with Silver. I agree with everyone who said that Silver builds on the lower Moves levels.

What has surprised me the most so far, is that on Gold, you have to suddenly do ALL the brackets. 3-turns are introduced over 3 levels, while all 8 brackets just show up out of the blue on Gold.

On the standard track test, they show up out of the blue on Intermediate.

As others have mentioned, the 8 step mohawk sequence (Silver/Juv) builds up to the brackets in Gold/Intermediate. The upper body placement and check for the mohawk is similar to what is needed for a FO bracket. (Granted, that's only one of the brackets.)

[AnnM]

I passed my Pre-Bronze and Bronze tests before MITF was required for adults. I learned and was able to do most of the moves, but never had to deal with a test standard or setting. So you can imagine what a transition it was for me to start working on Silver moves. I had skated as a child, but didn't do figures and only went to ISI 4, so most of the Silver moves were brand-new to me. Was I 8O at first because of all the things I didn't encounter before like the 8-step, 3s in the field and power pulls? Sure, but it never occurred to me that the test should be dumbed down. I've been working on Silver MITF for about two years now and will admit that [B]I[B] am the reason I haven't passed this test yet; I haven't put in enough consistent practice. It's been "baby steps" all the way, but all the troublesome moves are steadily improving. I don't want to open a can of worms, but I have to wonder if some people's frustration with this test stems today's society's expectation of "instant gratification".

Personally, I think if you are struggling on the Silver test with the threes in the field, have your coach teach you to patch the threes. It will help your control and you'll get it figured out a lot quicker than fighting with the moves as patch will teach control.

I can't agree with this enough! Breaking down the moves onto a patch setting instead was my breakthrough moment in making progress on the moves themselves.