Novel idea re: judging

[icedancer2]

I had an idea this morning after looking at Morgail's video of her Silver Moves in the practice thread for this week. Wouldn't it be weird and interesting to have your moves judged by an off-ice panel who were looking at a video of you doing the Moves?

It could be set up like the IJS with several cameras so that you could get different angles, slow-motion and close-ups. You would take your test in some secure location, an official team of videographers and it would be just like a test session except the judges would be off-site, like at US Figure Skating headquarters where a select panel of judges (selected by US Figure Skating, not by you, the test chairperson or some other too-interested party) would judge the test.

I wonder how that would go over? Then everyone across the country would be judged by the same panel of judges, who would have this as their full-time (paid) job, have more time to judge each move and maybe have more time to educate themselves and everyone else on what is passing standard. You could still have 3 judges and have a 2 out of 3 pasing, but it would really change the whole testing dynamic, wouldn't it?

I realized that there are pitfalls - you can't really gauge the speed of the skater doing the Move, nor feel the strength of the skater the way you can when you are right there. You would have to be really sensitive to the flow of the skaters on the ice as well.

I'm not suggesting that we go back to judging the Moves like figures, where the tracings had to be perfect, etc. (although yes I think we should never have eliminated figures).

Anyone have any comments? I have a lot more ideas about this and will share them if anyone is interested in this discussion. Thanks.

icedancer2 - trying to think outside of the box (or the lobe, as it were...:giveup: )

[Morgail]

Interesting idea. It would end the regional judging differences (ie. judges in state A are notoriously difficult, while judges in state B will pass anyone).

But it would also let the judges be more picky since they could replay your skate. The judges were conveniently not looking when I almost hit the boards at the end of my bronze power 3s :lol: ...but on video, they'd definitely be looking! There would be no more "I lucked out" moments.

[icedancer2]

Interesting idea. It would end the regional judging differences (ie. judges in state A are notoriously difficult, while judges in state B will pass anyone).

My thoughts exactly... and then as a tester you wouldn't have to be out there worrying about someone on your panel who you know is notoriously picky or whatever...

But it would also let the judges be more picky since they could replay your skate. The judges were conveniently not looking when I almost hit the boards at the end of my bronze power 3s :lol: ...but on video, they'd definitely be looking! There would be no more "I lucked out" moments.

Well, that is certainly true (I also had one of those moments on my test last weekend - strangely enough, no one appeared to notice it... but the general Move was so bad nobody noticed the whacky flaw - they were too busy writing down all the comments!).

But as a judge it would end those moments of "What the heck was that?" that sometimes come up - especially on dance tests where something is happening down in the corner and you can't see it from the side because of the barrier or because there are two people testing and it's hard to see in that instant exactly who/what happened and, well, it all becomes that much more difficult.

I had suggested at one time that the judges use binoculars so they could see what what going on better - no one took me up on it.

[SynchroSk8r114]

I wonder how that would go over? Then everyone across the country would be judged by the same panel of judges, who would have this as their full-time (paid) job, have more time to judge each move and maybe have more time to educate themselves and everyone else on what is passing standard. You could still have 3 judges and have a 2 out of 3 pasing, but it would really change the whole testing dynamic, wouldn't it?

Very interesting concept you have here, but don't you think that a lot of tests would get backed up as the judges would only be able to look at a certain number of videos per day. I'm sure that the USFSA would also get backed up too in regards to processing these tests as well. I would think that skaters would have to wait quite some time before being notified of a pass/fail result.

Also, how could you guarantee that the judges actually watched a tape? I mean, you'd definitely have to trust that they're going to do the right thing...and then there's the issue of communicating between judges - well, not so much communication, but influence. You know how at regular test sessions, judges aren't supposed to be influenced by their peers, but can talk about a particular move if there are issues with it, such as a reskate? I'm not sure skaters could trust most judges to keep that confidentiality with each judges' scores.

I'm not suggesting that we go back to judging the Moves like figures, where the tracings had to be perfect, etc. (although yes I think we should never have eliminated figures).

I second that! Oh, how I miss figures. I've had the pleasure of actually being able to do a little of figures (never finished them though because they were on their way out...:cry:) and MIF (passed Senior in 2005). You can definitely tell the skaters who took figures. There's just a better quality of skating (edges, control, lean, hip/free leg position, etc.). I'd love to see figures make a comeback, but that's highly unlikely.

[icedancer2]

Very interesting concept you have here, but don't you think that a lot of tests would get backed up as the judges would only be able to look at a certain number of videos per day. I'm sure that the USFSA would also get backed up too in regards to processing these tests as well. I would think that skaters would have to wait quite some tiem before being notified of a pass/fail result.

Good point. But if it were a full-time real job, then it would be like a person who worked in quality control - their job would be to watch videotapes all day with a team (hmm, this is starting to not sound do-able, but maybe) -- you could have different teams - Moves judges, Dance judges, Freestyle judges and a few Pairs judges and the person could either judge one discipline for a week and then rotate to another "judging service" or take a week off after one week on and having another team come in. It is all staring to sound way to complex and way to expensive... hmmm - that's the problem with being a visionary - it all costs money (and time...):giveup:

Also, how could you guarantee that the judges actually watched a tape? I mean, you'd definitely have to trust that they're going to do the right thing...and then there's the issue of communicating between judges - well, not so much communication, but influence. You know how at regular test sessions, judges aren't supposed to be influenced by their peers, but can talk about a particular move if there are issues with it, such as a reskate? I'm not sure skaters could trust most judges to keep that confidentiality with each judges' scores.

Valid point, which is why it would have to be done as a team - but maybe have an overseer who would make sure that there were no outside influences... (uh-oh, now I'm thinking that we could judge using computer programs and eliminating the human factor altogether - and what would that do to our sport.

I second that! Oh, how I miss figures. I've had the pleasure of actually being able to do a little of figures (never finished them though because they were on their way out...:cry:) and MIF (passed Senior in 2005). You can definitely tell the skaters who took figures. There's just a better quality of skating (edges, control, lean, hip/free leg position, etc.). I'd love to see figures make a comeback, but that's highly unlikely.

I am starting to see where coaches that have done figures are sometimes able to empower their students with that better quality of skating, so hopefully all is not lost, but I agree, the level of skating I see sometimes is overwhelmingly not so good (apparently to some people, even my skating has suffered!* see my comments in last week's practice thread).

[Sessy]

I'm not from America of course, but I'm still appalled my toeloop was passed with the rating it was passed with. I really suspect the judges weren't looking or something cuz no WAY should a toe waltz pass as a toeloop (I pre-rotated it even more than I usually do on the test).
It's not that I mind passing a test. It's that that sort of gross errors in technique should be caught and sifted out immediately, before they get worse.

Video would definately clear that up. Also, it'd be more clear to skaters why they passed or failed too I think.

[SynchroSk8r114]

Video would definately clear that up. Also, it'd be more clear to skaters why they passed or failed too I think.

Well, then add to the issue of this type of judging the cost of mailing skaters back their videos...

[icedancer2]

Well, then add to the issue of this type of judging the cost of mailing skaters back their videos...

Well, instead of a video, how about sending in your test via the internet (sort of like an in-house usfigureskating version of youtube... then you'd have your DVD in hand to watch for years to come... -- I mean, even back in the early '90s I have tapes of myself testing dance - it is an education to watch that, let me tell you!!

[Skittl1321]

I might be wrong, but I think with ISI for the high level tests you CAN mail in a tape if there is not a judge available locally. The idea isn't that odd.

However, I think it would be difficult to get ice time. If you didn't have a "test session" when everyone had to test because that's when the judges were there- how would you get the ice clear? I spent practice today dodging skaters so I could run through all my moves for the test. Imagine if that was your tape!

[icedancer2]

I might be wrong, but I think with ISI for the high level tests you CAN mail in a tape if there is not a judge available locally. The idea isn't that odd.

However, I think it would be difficult to get ice time. If you didn't have a "test session" when everyone had to test because that's when the judges were there- how would you get the ice clear? I spent practice today dodging skaters so I could run through all my moves for the test. Imagine if that was your tape!

That's cool that ISI does it that way I guess! Not such a novel idea after all...

BUT there could still be test sessions - I wasn't thinking that you would just do it when you could get free ice time - there would be all of the video equipment, videographers, etc., instead of judges on-site, but the test chair and all of those other people would have to be there to make sure it all goes smoothly, etc.

I guess it's not such a good idea after all. Oh well, my moment of brilliance on this matter has definitely passed.

[Sessy]

Well, then add to the issue of this type of judging the cost of mailing skaters back their videos...

Or you would have to request for it to be mailed back and pay for it. Kind of like traffic fines over here in the Netherlands, if you're photographed speeding, you're automatically sent your ticket to pay - if you're not sure it's your car (sometimes, the car plate isn't read correctly) you can request the photo.

[Thin-Ice]

That would make it difficult if you wanted to take two tests the same day (i.e. Pre-Bronze & Bronze MIF or Juvenile MIF & Juvenile FS, since one is contingent on the other). And since you wouldn't really know how long the delay in receiving results would be, you might have to take a test before you felt ready so you would try to meet a deadline for competitions. And we would miss the chance to ask the judges for immediate feedback so we could be better for the next test or the retrying of a test.

And if you choose the "I'm submitting a tape of myself testing" rather than the "special center where you test" -- there are ways for that to go wrong: editing your best elements from different sessions (but wearing the same clothes) or having someone take the test for you.:twisted:

As for the "place where USFS has testing done" -- it then makes testing MUCH more expensive, if you include travel costs... and I would want my coach there... and parents would want to be there for their kids tests. So it sounds like they'd have to travel from rink to rink at major events, buying more ice time, increasing the cost of testing. I could retry a test several times for the cost of an airplane ticket or an increased test fee!

But it is interesting to think of "what might be". Keep thinking "outside the lobe"!:lol:

OK, I admit, I'm biased, but I actually like having it "live". Besides, as a judge, I like to feel I can encourage skaters if I see one test where they weren't as good as they had hoped, and I see them on the ice in the next couple of weeks and tell them they're looking better. I also use the sound to help me decide if some elements are passing. I've seen some shaky-looking 3-turns in the field (could be nerves?), but if I don't hear any scrapes, I credit the skater with being able to do the turns.. and sometimes that is enough for me to pass the element.

And for ISI testing, I think it's the top 3 FS tests (maybe dances and figures too.. but I'm not sure), can be submitted on tape, if you don't test them at a major ISI event.

[jenlyon60]

I also find that at times I can assess a lot about the quality of a MIF by listening to the sound of the skater executing it. And not just scrapes but the sound of the stroke, or the sound of the tempo of the strokes.

Often one can also tell how well a MIF is being skated by observing the skater's posture/core or the knees/ankles, not just the tracing on the ice. For example a well-executed 3-turn or bracket has a certain look in the body.

[Thin-Ice]

Yep, I completely agree. I once had a judge say she could tell just by listening if a test should pass (not that she would NOT watch.. but it was an interesting concept). I know the tape could not do justice to the sound.. and as you point out, probably would not do justice to body positions.. since the perspective would be so flat-looking.

[jenlyon60]

I do think that use of well-constructed video would be great for judges' training, to augment or supplement the actual live trial judging.

The video might not necessarily help in teaching an assessment of power and flow, but I can see uses in demonstrating poorly executed elements. Preferably constructed by skaters who actually are experiencing difficulties with the elements vice more experienced skaters trying to deliberately skate the elements poorly.

[icedancer2]

I do think that use of well-constructed video would be great for judges' training, to augment or supplement the actual live trial judging.

The video might not necessarily help in teaching an assessment of power and flow, but I can see uses in demonstrating poorly executed elements. Preferably constructed by skaters who actually are experiencing difficulties with the elements vice more experienced skaters trying to deliberately skate the elements poorly.

I think this is a more realistic idea than my original one - I often come back from a test session thinking, "What is it that they were doing wrong?" - so I try to discuss it with the other judges or go to my coach and say, "I saw this on a test" (and I demonstrate what I think I'm seeing) and she will try to parse out why the skater is doing whatever it is and then make it into a lesson for me by pointing out how it could be done correctly.

I find this happens more on the lower levels or on the in-between levels like Intermediate and Novice...

And I know she's seen in all inthat she has been teaching for, like, 50 years!:roll:

[jenlyon60]

And sometimes it's not just one or two obvious things that leads to a test being marked "retry". It's the whole picture. So for example on Pre-Juv MIF, the alternating forward crossovers are on the low end of acceptable, and the alternating back crossovers are about the same. On the 3's in the field (both FI/BO and FO/BI) about half the turns are before top of lobe, or the turns may be at top of lobe, but the lobes have inconsistent shape and size within each side/edge. Then the bulk of the "power" on the power pulls appears to have come from the intro steps, i.e. the skater has very little knee action and there's a fair amount of arm and free leg movement. Finally, the 5-step mohawk sequence is acceptable.

So then in final assessment, the overall impression comes down to a borderline test. So then I quickly review my impression of the test, and if I think that it's going to be a very hard slog for that skater to reach the next level (in this example, Juvenile MIF), I will re-evaluate my comments and points awarded to mark the test as a "retry" at .2 below passing average. IMO it's not always fair or best for the skater to pass a marginal test, and then it's that much harder for the skater to pass the next test (assuming MIF tests here... FS tests are generally much more clear-cut, especially at the lower levels).

[Skittl1321]

I will re-evaluate my comments and points awarded to mark the test as a "retry" at .2 below passing average. IMO it's not always fair or best for the skater to pass a marginal test, and then it's that much harder for the skater to pass the next test (assuming MIF tests here... FS tests are generally much more clear-cut, especially at the lower levels).

So you reevaluate/change the scores you gave to ensure they will get a retry? That makes it sound like the scores you originally gave as you saw each move would have put the skater at a pass- even if barely. That seems a bit unfair. What does their ability to do the NEXT test have to do with passing the current test?

[jenlyon60]

Marginal tests are always the most difficult and it's often a judgement call as to "is the skater capable and having a bad day" or "is the skater just not quite soup yet at this level"

Is it fair for the skater to eek their way through a test and then rack up 4 or 5 retries (or more) on a next higher test? Or maybe quit the sport entirely in frustration after 2 or 3 retries?

Or is it fairer for a skater to get a retry on a marginal test, work a bit more and retest and pass with a good to strong result, and have less trouble on the next higher test?

Any test (MIF or FS) is a demonstration that the skater has mastered the skills being tested. Mastered in terms of the quality expected at the level being tested. For example, at Pre-Juv 3s in the field, edge quality is defined as the "bilateral ability to control turns and skate on flowing edges" but at Juvenile, the expectation for edge quality is "good control and sustained edges with equal lobes and no major subcurves." Continuing to Intermediate, the same focus is defined as "Increased implementation of knee/ankle flexibility and body lean to achieve full ice coverage with depth of pattern."

[slusher]

I actually think this is a good idea. Consider that, for coaches in Canada, they have to submit video'd lessons for their evaluation as a coach, skaters submit videos for potential international assignments and the entire skate curriculum is available on video, there doesn't seem to be a drawback to videoing tests and sending them in. If they can show the power and the flow to teach it, why can't they see that to evaluate it?

Except one. It would be fiendishly expensive. Coach videos I know are about $60 to send for evaluation and to take a test at a local club is about $10, $20 if it's a freeskate and they ding you $5.00 for a club fee or whatever, there would have to be a good reason not to go to a test day.

However, if you are in a really remote club where they fly in the dance boy and the judges for a test day twice a year and tests are as a result $100 plus, a video alternative might be a suggestion.

[Thin-Ice]

So you reevaluate/change the scores you gave to ensure they will get a retry? That makes it sound like the scores you originally gave as you saw each move would have put the skater at a pass- even if barely. That seems a bit unfair. What does their ability to do the NEXT test have to do with passing the current test?

Well as a judge, I start each test with a blank test form in front of me and the belief the skater is going to pass the test, otherwise the coach and skater would not have put in for this test. But, I don't put down a mark for the first element until it is completed. If it's marginal to start with, I usually won't put down any score... or I'll put it right at passing, and hope the skater is just nervous and will improve, giving the skater the benefit of the doubt. I also write a lot of comments.

If the second element is also marginal, but slightly better, I will usually put THAT element right at passing and say the skater is getting into the test... but if several elements are marginal, I don't want the skater to think some of them are of passing quality when they are not actually. So yes, that's why I write test scores in pencil... so I can change them.

And I want the skater to have a true reflection of how they tested on that particular day. Otherwise they will come back on some board or talk to their friends and are likely to say "The judge really liked my first element, better than my others, even though it's my weakest element on the test." Then if they have to retry the test, they don't keep working on that element "because the judges already thought it was fine".

Like many other judges, I want the skater to pass the test, but I also have to be realistic about the skater's abilities on that particular day. I want the skater to know what I thought they did well, and what I think they need to improve on before they either retry that test or start working on the next level, since MIF are designed so the skater builds on earlier skills to learn and exhibit the skills on the next tests.

And personally, when I see a marginal MIF test, the overall deciding factor for me of whether I think a skater should pass a certain test is the question "Is this skater ready to start working on the next MIF test?". And I know the skill-levels I will be looking for on the next test level up. Is that skater capable of understanding and carrying out the basics of those skills? So I agree with Jenlyon60, that the next test has a lot to do with my final overall decision on the outcome of the test being taken... especially for MIF.

I hope the reason the skater is testing is to show they've mastered certain skills.. not so they can say they've passed a test and buy the little patch. I know as a skater, I would love to just have the judges pass me on all my tests.... which would prove I could skate. But since I don't have the skills to pass all the tests (yet -- but I'm still working on them!), I don't deserve to pass and need to keep working on gaining more power, deeper knee bend, more extension, deeper edges, etc.

[Mrs Redboots]

Is it fair for the skater to eek their way through a test and then rack up 4 or 5 retries (or more) on a next higher test? Or maybe quit the sport entirely in frustration after 2 or 3 retries?

But I'm not testing the next level up, and may not plan to! That's the point - if my skating, today, meets nationally accepted standards, even if only just barely, then I should pass that test, and worry about my next level up when I get there. If it doesn't, I should be asked to retry.

I know it's different for adults, who may not test very often anyway, but I do think the principle of this test, not the next one, should apply.

However, I do agree that if the skater doesn't, overall, look like a Level 3 or Level 5 or whatever level they're testing, skater, then a retry should be given, even if there was no specific element you'd ask for a reskate on.

[jenlyon60]

Generally a borderline test looks like the skater has not mastered the skills for that level and thus does not look like a "Pre-Juv" or "Level 5" or such skater.

There's a difference between a truly borderline test and a test that has 2 or 3 really strong elements (for which the skater is appropriately marked) and 1 or 2 not quite up to par elements (again, for which the skater is appropriately marked). Much of the time the very strong elements will hold up the rest of the test and the skater will pass (it may depend on how egregious the issues were with the weaker elements).

[Skittl1321]

But I'm not testing the next level up, and may not plan to! That's the point - if my skating, today, meets nationally accepted standards, even if only just barely, then I should pass that test, and worry about my next level up when I get there. If it doesn't, I should be asked to retry.

I know it's different for adults, who may not test very often anyway, but I do think the principle of this test, not the next one, should apply.

However, I do agree that if the skater doesn't, overall, look like a Level 3 or Level 5 or whatever level they're testing, skater, then a retry should be given, even if there was no specific element you'd ask for a reskate on.

This is my point. A skater should be judged on the test they are taking- not the next one.

If a skater is marginally passing- that's above the pass level. If it's "not good enough" for mastery of that level, then USFSA needs to raise the passing standard!

I realize that there will always be judgement calls- thats why they are called judges, but it seems wrong, to me, to CHANGE the calls you while made watching to ensure someone won't pass because they only just met the passing standard and the judge thinks they won't pass the next level for awhile.

Skaters who scrape by one level, and then put up four or more fails on the next level need to talk to their coaches and ask them why they are being put up for tests they aren't ready for, not be held back on a test where they DID meet the passing standard- just didn't exceed it with flying colors.

Just my opinion though.

[Skittl1321]

Generally a borderline test looks like the skater has not mastered the skills for that level and thus does not look like a "Pre-Juv" or "Level 5" or such skater.



(note: I realize being a judge is a difficult and thankless job (thanks to all the judges btw) I'm not trying to argue, just have a conversation)

But if they don't look like they mastered it- is it really borderline? If they really look like they haven't mastered the level at all- isn't that a straight fail?

[jskater49]

But I'm not testing the next level up, and may not plan to! That's the point - if my skating, today, meets nationally accepted standards, even if only just barely, then I should pass that test, and worry about my next level up when I get there. If it doesn't, I should be asked to retry.

I know it's different for adults, who may not test very often anyway, but I do think the principle of this test, not the next one, should apply.


I have to say, that occurred to me. No way am I assuming I can keep going up the ladder of test. Bronze moves may be as far as I ever can go. I may never look like I'm ready for silver, but that shouldn't mean I can't pass Bronze.

j

[jenlyon60]

No it may not be a straight fail. The skater may have mastered some of the MIF on the test, and may have almost mastered other elements on the test. Which puts the test as a borderline test.

So, here's the deal. Skater does the test. They are sitting at .1 under passing average on the test form. The general rule of thumb is that we don't mark a test retry when the score is .1 under passing average.

So, I take a deep breath and look again at the comments I wrote on the sheet to refresh my mind. Is there any single element I saw that if I asked for a reskate, would probably be executed just enough better for me to give the skater that extra tenth? Also going through my mind is was there any element that was enough passing average for me to mark it up an extra tenth and pass the test. If the answer to both of those thoughts is no, then I have to re-evaluate my scoring of the test and decide what to do. And if I decide to mark the test retry, then I will adjust scoring/comments accordingly and often I will put a comment on the bottom of the form saying "needs a bit more work in XYZ..."

Hope that makes sense.

[Skittl1321]

Hope that makes sense.

that makes much more sense. Because it seems in this example the skater WAS below the passing average- just at the level that could get a "pass". So as a judge, you would see if there was a way you could let them pass, and if not- mark them a little down a bit more, so they understand they have things to work on- rather than feel like they just missed it and go screwed. The first example made it seem like they were say, just barely OVER the passing average, but got moved down.

I know judges aren't out to get skaters- but it was a bit disconcerting to hear that some take into account the elements on the NEXT test when judging the current one.

[jenlyon60]

A marginal or borderline test is usually the one that is sitting at that dreaded 0.1 below passing average.

If the full sheet of marks is sitting at passing average, then they pass. Simple.

Most tests that are right at passing average will have some strong points, and also some weak points, but the good and the not-so-good balance out to be a pass in that case.

But the point still remains that a skater who eeks by on a MIF test with a pass by the skin of the teeth will frequently have to work much harder to achieve a necessary level of skill sufficient to pass the next higher up MIF test. Assuming of course that that is their goal.

[Mrs Redboots]

But the point still remains that a skater who eeks by on a MIF test with a pass by the skin of the teeth will frequently have to work much harder to achieve a necessary level of skill sufficient to pass the next higher up MIF test. Assuming of course that that is their goal.

Worst scenario is what happened to me - I failed my level 3 Dance moves (deservedly so - I skated badly, and it was always going to be a bit of a long shot anyway, but if I'd skated as well as I was able, I'd have scraped through), and then they changed the system. The new level 3 moves aren't actually possible for me right now, as they involve a spiral sequence which I am too stiff and inflexible to tackle. It can be - and has been - done by adults my age, but that was before they said you had to get your knee, not just your foot, above your arse. I can get my foot up there on one side, but not my knee, and doubt I ever will.

[Thin-Ice]

Thanks to Jenlyon60 for being able to clearly write what her thinking process is when judging. It is very similar to mine... I just wasn't able to explain it as well. Like I said before, I really want every skater to pass the test and will sometimes start by believing an element is passable, when it's actually very borderline.. i.e. some power, bad pattern, not held long enough but posture is pretty good, skater doesn't have much flow and the extension on a spiral (for example) is NOT QUITE at hip level. Obviously each of those things must be considered individually on each test to decide if that element is passing. If you have a test that only has one element that way, and the rest of the test is good, it's a passing test. I would probably write more comments about the things that need improvement on the one shaky element so the skater can keep working on them. But if the majority of the test is skated that way, the skater hasn't really mastered the elements. So in my mind, the skater should not pass the test... and if the skater has not mastered those elements, then the skater really is not ready to START working on the next test.

I've been on both sides of the boards for a marginal test... so I know how frustrating it is to miss passing by just a bit. On one freestyle test I took years ago, I two-footed a loop during the program, then my free foot blade just skimmed the ice on the reskate. Yes, I touched down, no I didn't deserve to pass (and I was REALLY upset with myself over that!) and no, I did not pass... by 0.2, on the technical mark, because a loop was required. Could the judges have tweaked it to make me pass? Sure -- I had done a lutz in the program (which was not required) and that might have been enough to increase the technical mark... but I still would have known I didn't deserve to pass on that particular skate. I certainly wished I had passed the test though... since it took me until this summer to actually pass the moves test I could have avoided, by passing that FS test. On the other hand, I did need to master those moves, too. It's made me a better skater -- and helped me prove to myself I am stubborn enough to conquer those moves! :D

[plinko]

I had a judge give me a test. My club set a criteria to be able to skate on freestyle, and it was coincidentally a criteria that would have excluded most of the adult skaters. So my coach put my test in, on a wing and a prayer, it would have been marginal at best and I had a terrible test I was so nervous. There wasn't anything in there that a judge could say that I could skate and was just having a bad day.

The judge passed me. To this day, I still can't explain it, and I've seen the judge a few times since and have passed other things, but have never had the nerve to ask about it.

[Ellyn]

Going back to the original suggestion of submitting tests on video . . .

If you did that, without immediate feedback, then there would be no opportunity for reskates. You'd have to get it right the first time or expect not to pass if there was one mistake even if you could have corrected it with a second try and the rest of the test was good enough.

[Debbie S]

On one freestyle test I took years ago, I two-footed a loop during the program, then my free foot blade just skimmed the ice on the reskate. Yes, I touched down, no I didn't deserve to pass (and I was REALLY upset with myself over that!) and no, I did not pass... by 0.2, on the technical mark, because a loop was required. Could the judges have tweaked it to make me pass? Sure -- I had done a lutz in the program (which was not required) and that might have been enough to increase the technical mark... but I still would have known I didn't deserve to pass on that particular skate. Are you talking about the Bronze FS test? If the 2-footed loop was the only mistake, the judge should have asked you to reskate it. One missed element (actually 2, in the case of FS tests) can be fixed and made passable with a reskate. And if you did a lutz, then really, that should have sufficed for the jump requirement, as you need to do a toe, sal, waltz-toe, and any other single jump.

Or is this the Silver FS test? Either way, you should have been asked to reskate the loop, if that was the only mistake.

When I tested Bronze FS, I 2-footed my loop, which was my only mistake, and I was asked for a reskate, landed it (albeit on my 2nd attempt, but still within the rules) and passed. Judges also have the option (as stated in the rulebook) of using the presentation mark to pass an FS test when there is only 1 "serious error" present.

This discussion about judging has been very interesting, and I've enjoyed reading the comments from our judges here on the forum regarding borderline tests. Thank you for contributing. :)

[icedancer2]

I had a judge give me a test. My club set a criteria to be able to skate on freestyle, and it was coincidentally a criteria that would have excluded most of the adult skaters. So my coach put my test in, on a wing and a prayer, it would have been marginal at best and I had a terrible test I was so nervous. There wasn't anything in there that a judge could say that I could skate and was just having a bad day.

The judge passed me. To this day, I still can't explain it, and I've seen the judge a few times since and have passed other things, but have never had the nerve to ask about it.

Maybe you skated better than you thought you did and maybe the judge perceived your nerves and gave you the benefit of the doubt! Yea

[icedancer2]

Going back to the original suggestion of submitting tests on video . . .

If you did that, without immediate feedback, then there would be no opportunity for reskates. You'd have to get it right the first time or expect not to pass if there was one mistake even if you could have corrected it with a second try and the rest of the test was good enough.

It's true that the whole testing structure would have to be different if it were all done on video. It was just an idea and people have brought up very valid point. To the poster that worried that they would have to travel a great distanct to get to a "testing center" - my original idea was to have them set up as test sesssions at your normal rink as usual, but with videographers instead of judges.

Of course re-skates and people taking multiple tests on one day would be a problem. I was just looking for more even-ness of judging - and of course the feedback would come much later than it usually does, which is probably not good for learning in general.

So after reading through all of these posts I have determined that it's not really a good idea, BUT maybe a formal video critique-service would be a good idea. If this were a paid position I would be happy to do it!

Thanks for playing with me "outside the lobe" everyone!

[icedancer2]

Are you talking about the Bronze FS test? If the 2-footed loop was the only mistake, the judge should have asked you to reskate it. One missed element (actually 2, in the case of FS tests) can be fixed and made passable with a reskate. And if you did a lutz, then really, that should have sufficed for the jump requirement, as you need to do a toe, sal, waltz-toe, and any other single jump.

Or is this the Silver FS test? Either way, you should have been asked to reskate the loop, if that was the only mistake.



It looks like they let her reskate the loop and she put her foot down (tap down or just slight scrape of the free foot) - it's too bad, but that's what happens... don't worry, most judges are holding their breath hoping you will not it clean on the reskate!!

[Debbie S]

It looks like they let her reskate the loop and she put her foot down (tap down or just slight scrape of the free foot) - Ooops! :oops: Sorry about that. That's what happens when I read too fast. Thanks for correcting me, IceDancer.

Hmmm, well the judges still had the option of using the 2nd mark to pass the test, and if it was just a slight scrape of the free foot....

The judges did give you 2 chances to land it in the reskate, didn't they Thin-Ice?

[jskater49]

Since we're saying what we wish was different about the test structure - I wish MITF were like dances in that you could test one or two elements at a time. It's very discouraging when one element holds you up. It would be very encouraging to be able to pass at least one element.

It might not work for kids but I wish they'd consider it for the adult track, we tend to do things in bits and drabs and take years for a test as it is.

j

[myste12]

I would definitely say that I'm in favor of regular test sessions, but I'm beginning to wish that I could send in a tape of my junior moves test. I originally tested junior in February, and was close to passing but the judges wanted to see a bit more attack. Between preparing for AN and waiting for a gold panel test session, I won't be re-testing until September or November. I can see how it would be nice to send in the tape whenever you're ready instead of waiting for a test with the necessary judging panel to be offered in your area, especially for those high level tests.

[Mrs Redboots]

I wish MITF were like dances in that you could test one or two elements at a time.
You can't in the UK - the compulsory dance tests each comprise two dances, and you have to pass both of them or you fail the entire test. Plus there's a "passing average" for both dances you have to reach. Variation/Original dance (starts of as the first and moves to the 2nd at Level 3), Free Dance and Skating Moves are all separate tests, so it costs quite a lot of money to get a "full level". At Free Skating we have three tests at each level, not two - Elements, Free and Moves (again, separate tests that attract a separate fee, although most people take their Elements and Free tests on the same day; and I've known people fail Elements and go on to pass Free).

Plus we have more levels than you do - 9 or 10, and you have to get the first 6 before you can train as a judge, and if you have less and want to start coach training it takes a lot longer.

[jskater49]

You can't in the UK - the compulsory dance tests each comprise two dances, and you have to pass both of them or you fail the entire test. Plus there's a "passing average" for both dances you have to reach. Variation/Original dance (starts of as the first and moves to the 2nd at Level 3), Free Dance and Skating Moves are all separate tests, so it costs quite a lot of money to get a "full level". At Free Skating we have three tests at each level, not two - Elements, Free and Moves (again, separate tests that attract a separate fee, although most people take their Elements and Free tests on the same day; and I've known people fail Elements and go on to pass Free).

Plus we have more levels than you do - 9 or 10, and you have to get the first 6 before you can train as a judge, and if you have less and want to start coach training it takes a lot longer.

I guess two dances isn't so bad, most people do two at a time anyway. But I sure like it broken down so I feel some sort of accomplishment when I get one dance at least done. I'm pretty sure I could pass the peremiter crossovers on my Bronze moves and it I could just do that...it would really put a fire in my belly rather than now, when it looks like mohawks are more than a year away from being passable...plus I have to keep working on everything to keep them up to par... Sigh...

j

[techskater]

You can take figure tests in 2 parts from the 5th test to 8th test. There's a part A and a part B to each (or you can take the whole thing). It helped for the "drips and drabs" mentioned here and also helped when a skater was preparing for Regionals and the draw was going to be from part A or B because the skater could work on that 1/2 and pass it and get ready for Regionals at the same time.

I wouldn't be opposed if they allowed some of the high level MIF tests to be broken down like that. I have 3 moves that are decent on my Novice test, 2 borderline, and 1 skunky right now. If I could pass each one individually, I'd be 1/2 done! LOL! :P

[frbskate63]

You can't in the UK - the compulsory dance tests each comprise two dances, and you have to pass both of them or you fail the entire test.

Actually, that's not true any more. You have to achieve a minumum mark on each dance, but it's quite a long way below the passing standard (about 0.5, I think), and as long as you don't drop below that, and achieve the passing total overall, then you pass. But if you're that far below passing one dance, the chances of making it up on the other are minimal, unless you're well above standard, but have a fall, or something.

Fiona

[CanadianAdult]

With regards to MITF, Skate Canada floated a proposal to coaches this past year about splitting up Skills tests. Currently they are three exercises and all have to be satisfactory to pass the test, there is a reskate allowed for one exercise.
There's been no word from Skate Canada since that survey but it was interesting to know that they are considering it.

[Debbie S]

Since we're saying what we wish was different about the test structure - I wish MITF were like dances in that you could test one or two elements at a time. It's very discouraging when one element holds you up. It would be very encouraging to be able to pass at least one element.I thought about that when I was trying to pass Bronze MIF - I passed 2 moves the first time I tested (and then failed one of those the 2nd time I tested - a tougher judging panel, that was made up of dance judges, and it was the 5-step, need I say more?) and then 3 the second time (2 of which I hadn't passed the first time, so it would have been nice not to have to keep practicing moves that I'd passed (and might fail the next time - lol) while trying to get the blasted power 3's up to par. Of course, it still would have taken me 3 tries to pass the entire test.

But the problem with that is you wouldn't be able to use 1 move that was above passing level to boost you up to an overall pass if another move wasn't quite passable. On the Silver test, I am trying to milk those spirals for all they're worth - lol! ;)

[jskater49]

But the problem with that is you wouldn't be able to use 1 move that was above passing level to boost you up to an overall pass if another move wasn't quite passable. On the Silver test, I am trying to milk those spirals for all they're worth - lol! ;)

Oh yea. That's a good point!

j

[icedancer2]

At this point I think it would be good to use a videotape of a test as a learning tool for the skater. I would love to be able to go back over a test with a skater and/or their coach and point out what I saw on a test and how I would want it skated differently.

There have been a few times in the past months where I would have love to have an instant replay of something I saw on a test, just to make sure I really saw it!!

OTOH, if someone saw a replay of my test last week, they would have seen me touch my foot down on the right Power-3 (my nemesis) which I'm sure no one saw because they were too busy writing down just how crappy the first two lobes of the move were! Lucky for me because Ireally didn't want to have to reskate that one move, of all of them!

Interesting discussion everyone!

Oh - I just wanted to mention that "back in the day" (the '60's) when you took your 6th figure, you had to take your Novice freestyle with it IF you passed the figures portion. If then you didn't pass the freestyle, you would have to take the whole thing over again, including the figures. I remember people totally freaking out about and us all holding our breath when someone took a freestyle test (and back then there were no freestyle tests before Novice). A LOT has changed since then, some of it for the better I would say!

[plinko]

Maybe you skated better than you thought you did and maybe the judge perceived your nerves and gave you the benefit of the doubt! Yea

That's all I can think it was. I think that the judge was sending a message, and I was the lucky one. If the club wanted adult skaters to have freeskate tests, then the judge was going to "give" those tests. I don't have a video of that test, if I did, I would have burned it. The judge should have burned it as to avoid questioning of why it passed.

Back to videos - The downside of the entire videoing concept is having coaches, skaters and parents comparing videos and then speculating on why skater X passed and skater Y didn't. Already with the new judging system there is extensive nit picking on the summary sheets, I wouldn't want to see that in testing.

[icedancer2]

Back to videos - The downside of the entire videoing concept is having coaches, skaters and parents comparing videos and then speculating on why skater X passed and skater Y didn't. Already with the new judging system there is extensive nit picking on the summary sheets, I wouldn't want to see that in testing.

I'm sure this already exists even without the videos - "Why didn't my little darling so-and-so pass when that other little darling so-and-so didn't" has been speculated through the ages in skating. Usually the skater knows why they didn't pass even if no one else does.

[Thin-Ice]

Ooops! :oops: Sorry about that. That's what happens when I read too fast. Thanks for correcting me, IceDancer.

Hmmm, well the judges still had the option of using the 2nd mark to pass the test, and if it was just a slight scrape of the free foot....

The judges did give you 2 chances to land it in the reskate, didn't they Thin-Ice?

Thanks for the support Debbie S... yes, the judges had the option of using the 2nd mark to let me pass... but they chose not to. It was one of those last-test-before-the-deadline sessions.. and in this case, that particular panel of judges was being extra picky. (I've noticed on those last-test-sessions, some judges are more lenient, some are more picky.)

And even if there's just one element you need to reskate, you only have one chance for a clean reskate (although they are also supposed to give you a warm-up, which they don't judge, and then they judge your NEXT/real attempt.)

In the long run, it was probably better I didn't pass. This way I was forced to stay Bronze, where I met a bunch of really great skaters from across the country at Adult Nationals.. who I have since shared locker rooms with and cherish their friendships. I never would have shared those experiences with all of them, if I had managed to pass the Silver FS Test.. and THAT would have been a REAL loss for me!

[jazzpants]

Hmmm, well the judges still had the option of using the 2nd mark to pass the test, and if it was just a slight scrape of the free foot....

The judges did give you 2 chances to land it in the reskate, didn't they Thin-Ice?
I had a similar situation as Thin-Ice... but the only thing was that this was for the Bronze FS, where the loop is one of the options for a third single jump and not the Silver FS, where the loop IS a required jump (Thin-Ice's case) and the passing average was 0.2 higher. And thankfully, I had presentation marks that were over the 2.5 Bronze FS average.

That said, I am still very :bow: that I passed the Bronze FS test! I seriously thought that I was a goner on that particular test... and I look forward to finally meeting a lot of my online friends at AN. :mrgreen: (And of course, I'm happy to have already met a bunch of you guys at Sectionals and other comps... :bow: )