New jump sequence rule

[Ice T]

Hey gang,

My coach brought to my attention today about the new jump sequence rule which has taken effect now. It states that in a jump sequence, if you use a mohawk or three turn for the second jump, it will be counted as two separate jumps. Ugh!! So now what? Is everyone changing their jump sequences in their programs? The adult WBP requirements want to see a sequence. Can anyone give me a suggestion of possibilities? I hate that blasted 1/2 loop, so any other possibilities would be better for me.

Thanks!

Ice T

[mikawendy]

Other than the half loop, another possibility would be a side toe hop (some people call these a toe tap), such as

any jump, side toe hop to FO edge to axel

any jump, side toe hop to waltz-toe

any jump, side toe hop to waltz-loop

I once saw a skater do walley-1/2 loop-2 flip. That in itself is not a sequence (because there is no listed jump before the walley and 1/2 loop). But theoretically, I think something like any listed jump, edge pull from BO to BI edge, walley, 1/2 loop, flip (or salchow) would be a sequence. Now whether it's doable and looks good is another thing altogether.

I think I also saw a vid of a guy at novice do walley in one direction, step down to walley in the other direction, then 3 loop. Again, not technically a sequence but still 8O 8O neat to watch.

Edited to add: Here's a link to an earlier thread (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=21671) about sequences. NOTE that this thread was started in the previous (2006-2007) competition season, during which mohawks and three turns were okay in sequences, hence the suggested sequences that use falling leaf (which is usually followed by a FI3 turn). But the discussion is interesting, and some of the sequences listed in that thread do not use mohawks or 3 turns.

[Debbie S]

The adult WBP requirements want to see a sequence. Huh? Is this the U.S. you're talking about? The USFSA WBP say a combination is required (for Bronze and up), and a combo is defined as 2 or 3 jumps with no turn or change of foot between jumps, so a sequence would not fulfill this requirement. A sequence is optional - the rule says that no more than 3 jumping passes may be combos or sequences - but you don't have to do one. You could have 3 combos, or 2, or 1. Also, only 1 combo can be a 3-jump combo - I suspect that if you do a 3-jump sequence, that counts as your 3-jump combo.

The question that has yet to be answered (I think it's going to be trial and error as the season goes on) is: since Bronze and Silver are not judged using IJS (or really, all adult levels at non-qualifying comps), does the rule about no mohawks or 3-turns in sequences still apply? :??

[NoVa Sk8r]

Huh? Is this the U.S. you're talking about? The USFSA WBP say a combination is required (for Bronze and up)The rule is at least one combo OR sequence (but no more than 3 combos or sequences). So you could do:
-1 combo
-2 combos
-3 combos
-1 combo/1 sequence
-1 combo/2 sequences
-2 combos/1 sequence
-2 sequences
-3 sequences

[singerskates]

Why would anybody do a sequence when it's only worth .8 of a combination? You lose 20% of your potential mark for a jumping pass by doing a sequence.

I would think it would be better to do the following if in Adult Bronze whether it be Canadian (I'm Canadian) or American:

waltz/loop/toe
0r
salchow/loop/toe
or
flip/loop/toe
or
lutz/loop/toe

and then add either

waltz/loop
or
salchow/loop
or
flip/loop
or
lutz/loop

and then add either (if in US so far in Canada Adult Bronze can only have 2 jump combinations)

waltz/toe
or
salchow/toe
or
flip/toe
or
lutz/toe

(if in Canada unless Skate Canada gives us a third jump window too)

two solo single jumps

(if in US)

one solo single jump


I hope Skate Canada follows the USFS' lead with the WBP and gives us that third combination jump and allows us to have a third jump in the combination along with a third spin element especially a combination spin. I hate that I can do one but I can't put it in my program because of the rules.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Why would anybody do a sequence when it's only worth 0.8 of a combination? You lose 20% of your potential mark for a jumping pass by doing a sequence.Because for most (if not all; there might be some events here and there) adult bronze and silver events in the U.S., IJS is not used. So the 20% penalty is not in effect.

(But maybe judges online here can answer whether judges really do judge comos/sequences differently? All of the judges that I have ever talked to over the years have pretty much told me that, under the 6.0 system, it's six, one-half dozen, or the other when comparing combos with sequences.)

[techskater]

You might do a sequence because you "used up" your loops and/or toe loops or you are trying to get in a second of a specific jump (like a double sal)

[Skittl1321]

You might do a sequence because you "used up" your loops and/or toe loops or you are trying to get in a second of a specific jump (like a double sal)

Or because you are a lower level skater and your combinatations stink :) and adding that side toe hop makes the second jump leave the ground :)

[Ice T]

Well, I went from three jumping passes and a sequence (4 total) to 5 jumping passes with this new rule change, since my sequence was a loop/side hop/salchow/toe. Now it is counted as a solo loop and a sal/toe combo. My thinking was that the judges would want to see a sequence in the program because that would make it more well rounded. Also, I think sequences can sometimes be more difficult than a combo since you have so many jumps linked together and have to keep a rhythm in them.

Since my half loop is soooooooo bad (I will now be working diligently on it), I was hoping for other sequence ideas that I could try out. Oh.......and I don't have an axel yet, so count that out of any forward take off jump in the sequence. :)

[techskater]

I think that's still a sequence with the side toe hop between them

[Ice T]

I think that's still a sequence with the side toe hop between them

No, because I do the three turn entrance into the salchow.

[doubletoe]

Well, I went from three jumping passes and a sequence (4 total) to 5 jumping passes with this new rule change, since my sequence was a loop/side hop/salchow/toe. Now it is counted as a solo loop and a sal/toe combo. My thinking was that the judges would want to see a sequence in the program because that would make it more well rounded. Also, I think sequences can sometimes be more difficult than a combo since you have so many jumps linked together and have to keep a rhythm in them.

Since my half loop is soooooooo bad (I will now be working diligently on it), I was hoping for other sequence ideas that I could try out. Oh.......and I don't have an axel yet, so count that out of any forward take off jump in the sequence. :)

Since the two jumps can be linked by unlisted or half jumps in a sequence, you can definitely do a loop-side tap-waltz-toe, or even just loop-waltz-toe. You don't necessarily have to do the side tap, since the waltz jump is an unlisted 1/2 revolution jump that would serve to link the loop and toe in a sequence. But if you are using loops and/or toes in other combinations, remember you can only have two of each, so you might consider using the salchow as the first jump in your sequence instead of the loop.

[Debbie S]

You don't necessarily have to do the side tap, since the waltz jump is an unlisted 1/2 revolution jump that would serve to link the loop and toe in a sequence. But the step from the loop landing to the waltz takeoff is a BO mohawk, correct? If you jump CCW, you would land on your RBO edge and then have to step to LFO to take off for the waltz. Wouldn't that be against the new rules?

Which brings me back to my question of whether the no-mohawk/3-turns rule for sequences applies to Bronze and Silver, since those levels are judged under 6.0.

Ice T, are you Bronze or Silver? If you're Silver, you are allowed to have 5 jumping passes in your program, so you wouldn't need to change the jumping passes you mentioned. If you're Bronze, though, you are limited to 4 passes.

[doubletoe]

But the step from the loop landing to the waltz takeoff is a BO mohawk, correct? If you jump CCW, you would land on your RBO edge and then have to step to LFO to take off for the waltz. Wouldn't that be against the new rules?

Which brings me back to my question of whether the no-mohawk/3-turns rule for sequences applies to Bronze and Silver, since those levels are judged under 6.0.

Ice T, are you Bronze or Silver? If you're Silver, you are allowed to have 5 jumping passes in your program, so you wouldn't need to change the jumping passes you mentioned. If you're Bronze, though, you are limited to 4 passes.

Technically, yes, it would be a back outside mohawk, but there is no turn between the landing of the first jump and the takeoff of the waltz jump, which is what they are really trying to prevent with this rule. When they refer to a mohawk or 3-turn, they are really talking about landing your first jump backwards, then doing some sort of turn that brings you forward and backwards again for your next takeoff edge (whether it's stepping out forward and doing a forward 3-turn, or doing a back outside 3-turn and bringing the other foot down in a mohawk). The point of the new rule was to eliminate the combination vs. sequence debate when a skater landed the first jump with poor control and ended up doing a 3-turn on the ice before doing the second jump in the combination. Last year they were calling it a combination jump but deducting grades of execution if there was a 3-turn in-between. This year they just don't want to deal with it at all anymore.

[Ice T]

Ice T, are you Bronze or Silver? If you're Silver, you are allowed to have 5 jumping passes in your program, so you wouldn't need to change the jumping passes you mentioned. If you're Bronze, though, you are limited to 4 passes.

I am Silver. Originally, my program only had 4 jumping passes. We simply had not found room or time yet to put in the 5th jumping pass (it is a new program). But now with the sequence rule change that in effect breaks my sequence into two separate jumping passes......waaaallllllaaaaa.....! I now have the 5 jumping passes.......which I am happy about, but not one of them is a sequence now. :roll:

It kinda seems from what everyone is saying is that now we only have two options -- a half loop as a connector or a waltz as the next jump after any landing. Hmmmmm.....I'm not liking that our choices are diminishing....it is taking yet even more creativity and originality out of the sport. They should just tell us what jumps to do instead of confusing us and making us try to figure it out like some big mystery. Any thoughts?

[doubletoe]

I am Silver. Originally, my program only had 4 jumping passes. We simply had not found room or time yet to put in the 5th jumping pass (it is a new program). But now with the sequence rule change that in effect breaks my sequence into two separate jumping passes......waaaallllllaaaaa.....! I now have the 5 jumping passes.......which I am happy about, but not one of them is a sequence now. :roll:

It kinda seems from what everyone is saying is that now we only have two options -- a half loop as a connector or a waltz as the next jump after any landing. Hmmmmm.....I'm not liking that our choices are diminishing....it is taking yet even more creativity and originality out of the sport. They should just tell us what jumps to do instead of confusing us and making us try to figure it out like some big mystery. Any thoughts?

I think a lot of people are starting to feel like the new rules are going a little too far now, since sequences are now being so heavily discouraged that they are in danger of becoming extinct. On the other hand, people may also start getting more creative with linking toe taps. For example, you could land any jump on your RBO edge and do a little back split jump or similar left toe-right-toe hop while just staying backwards, then stepping down onto a LBI or LBO edge and taking off on a flip, salchow or lutz. (Just don't do a crossover as you step onto that edge, since crossovers aren't allowed in a sequence.)

[techskater]

I saw that sequence at Nationals too - Lutz, split kick, flip (or vice versa).

Because of the new rule, I have three combos and no sequences. ((Shrug)). Whatever.

[Hannahclear]

As for standard combos, with either loop or toe loop at the end, I'm out of options, so I have to do a sequence.

I'm back in Bronze, planning on AN next year:

Lutz/loop (coach wants a toe on the end too)
Flip/toe
Lutz
Loop/1/2 loop/salchow (haven't started this yet, or maybe I can do the toe if I don't do the 3 jump)

Personally, I have no problem with the rules, but damn, I want 10 more seconds. 1:40 is not long enough.

[daisies]

As for standard combos, with either loop or toe loop at the end, I'm out of options, so I have to do a sequence.

I'm back in Bronze, planning on AN next year:

Lutz/loop (coach wants a toe on the end too)
Flip/toe
Lutz
Loop/1/2 loop/salchow (haven't started this yet, or maybe I can do the toe if I don't do the 3 jump)

Personally, I have no problem with the rules, but damn, I want 10 more seconds. 1:40 is not long enough.

Hannahclear, if you'd rather do three combos, instead of two and a sequence, how about this?

Lutz/loop/toe
Flip/toe
Lutz
Flip/loop

That would be two lutzes, two flips, two loops and two toes. If you want to demonstrate a salchow in there, replace the flip/loop with salchow/loop.

[Hannahclear]

I probably should have mentioned that I hate the flip before posting that. :lol:

I think I can swing that sequence. AN is quite aways off.