Crossover vs Progressive??????

[Skittl1321]

I've been reading back posts about pre-bronze tests and in one of them this was a big issue on crossovers or progressives.

WHAT is a progressive? I got that it was a more advanced crossover, but I can't tell what it is. Can they be done forward and backward?

Can someone explain the difference to me? Videos would be awesome!

[SynchroSk8r114]

:!: For anyone taking PSA rating exams, this is a question that could possibly be asked!

The difference between a crossover and a progressive is that:

a CROSSOVER physically crosses the foot over by almost stepping over to transfer your weight from one leg to the other. The transfer is made after crossing your foot all the way over your skating foot, whereas

a PROGRESSIVE actually progresses across the ice for almost a smoother transfer of weight, which begins on the ice and in front of your skating foot (hence the name).

Progressives are used a lot in dance and gradually you'll begin doing them in place of the basic cross-step crossovers that beginner skaters are taught. The same goes for backward. You'll eventually become skilled enough to eliminate that push-lift-cross-step motion of backward crossovers and work your way up to a more fluid push-cross movement.

Actual back progressives in dance, however, are totally different from the forward dance progressives. I'll try and find you some video examples here...

Hope this cleared it up for you! Good luck! :D

[jskater49]

No video from me..but if you have any tapes of Paul Whylie - his forward crossovers were more like progressives. A progressive - you put your foot down on the ice along side your other foot and slide your foot over ON THE ICE. Also you push just as much with the other foot. You get more power from progressives because the pushes are equal. I can only do it in one direction and have found on the lower level dances, they let you get away with a crossover as long as it's not too steppy looking and you are at least getting some power from the under push.

j

[phoenix]

Back progressives:
http://phoenix.sk8rland.com/video/bk_progressives_exercise.AVI

**this was an exercise where I was supposed to change the depth of knee bend on each one (high, med, low, repeat), so ignore that part. Watch the feet--they don't cross. The inside foot does give a push though w/ the outside edge as it slides forward off the ice.

Ice dancers do back progressives to match their partner's legs doing forward progressives. Also if side by side w/ partner, no legs pushing to the side (ala back crossovers), which would wipe partner out!

I don't have a clear video of fwd ones--to the untrained eye they look like normal crossovers. But the free foot strikes the ice *before* the feet are crossed, then both feet are on the ice while the cross-through happens. Probably someone else has a video that will make it easier to understand.

All skaters should eventually make the switch from fwd crossovers to progressives--they're more powerful & present a nicer line.

[SynchroSk8r114]

:!: For anyone taking PSA rating exams, this is a question that could possibly be asked!

The difference between a crossover and a progressive is that:

a CROSSOVER physically crosses the foot over by almost stepping over to transfer your weight from one leg to the other. The transfer is made after crossing your foot all the way over your skating foot, whereas

a PROGRESSIVE actually progresses across the ice for almost a smoother transfer of weight, which begins on the ice and in front of your skating foot (hence the name).

Progressives are used a lot in dance and gradually you'll begin doing them in place of the basic cross-step crossovers that beginner skaters are taught. The same goes for backward. You'll eventually become skilled enough to eliminate that push-lift-cross-step motion of backward crossovers and work your way up to a more fluid push-cross movement.

Actual back progressives in dance, however, are totally different from the forward dance progressives. I'll try and find you some video examples here...

Hope this cleared it up for you! Good luck! :D

Well, I found something that might help you from youtube:
Here's a good example of more advanced backward crossovers, what you ultimately want to strive for:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GJpdWQLdle4

Here's an example of typical beginner crossovers, but the coach also shows more advanced ones (which you are again striving for) toward the end:
http://sports.expertvillage.com/videos/forward-crossovers-advanced-ice-skating.htm

[Skittl1321]

Okay- so I think if I understand this right I
a) totally don't understand how a forward progressive works. (I can't see how you don't pick up the foot to move it over while going forward.)
b) might already be doing backward progressives. (A crossover would be like the ISI learning style of picking your foot up and putting it down, but a progressive pulls it across without leaving the ice? Or is that still a crossover?)

I couldn't get all the videos to load, because I don't have flash- but I'll watch them at home on a different computer.

Thanks for the explanations!

[phoenix]

b) might already be doing backward progressives. (A crossover would be like the ISI learning style of picking your foot up and putting it down, but a progressive pulls it across without leaving the ice? Or is that still a crossover?)



It's still a crossover, just an advanced one. Unless someone has specifically taught you back progressives, I'm sure you're not doing them--They're NOT intuitive & they feel really awkward when first learning them.

[SynchroSk8r114]

Okay- so I think if I understand this right I
a) totally don't understand how a forward progressive works. (I can't see how you don't pick up the foot to move it over while going forward.)
b) might already be doing backward progressives. (A crossover would be like the ISI learning style of picking your foot up and putting it down, but a progressive pulls it across without leaving the ice? Or is that still a crossover?)

I couldn't get all the videos to load, because I don't have flash- but I'll watch them at home on a different computer.

Thanks for the explanations!

No, a back progressive (if were talking ice dance now) is not anything like a back crossover. Bear with me here: Let's say you were gliding backwards on your right bent leg with your left foot extended in front. To do the progressive you would switch your weight to your left bent leg while extending your right foot in front then switch your weight back to your right bent leg while extending your left foot in front. It's not nearly as complicated as it sounds and a heck of a lot easier to teach in person. It's got 3 steps (right, left, right). Anyway...

You're right about a back crossover being similar to the way they're taught in ISI. In fact, kids who are competing at the Beta level have to do their crossovers this way and are not permitted to do the more advanced crossover where the foot remains on the ice. (Doing so calls for deductions...). So, no - a back crossover where the feet remain on the ice is not a progressive, but a more advanced crossover instead. Unless you're doing ice dance, you are not doing a back progressive, but a more advanced back crossover! :D

For the forward progressive, you must have deep knee bend and good knee action. Skating with "peg legs" makes it nearly impossible to do a progressive crossover, which you'll see when you are able to watch the videos later. I always emphasize deep bend when teaching my students these...

[phoenix]

http://icepartnersearch.com/showbio.php?i=1653&PHPSESSID=f4eb91c45022e1d47d1d4518a8ecf1c2

This couple has nice fwd progressives--it's the first thing on the video. As I said, you may not see a huge difference; to the untrained eye you may not quite know what to look for.

When they do them slowly, you can see that their free foot hits the ice still uncrossed, then the other foot pushes through/under for a very strong push. It happens very fast.

And yes, hugely important to have deep deep knee bend to make it really work.

[SynchroSk8r114]

One of my favorite ice dances and the one I'm working on now, the Paso Doble, has great examples of a forward and backward progressive. You'll want to watch the girl's feet for these...:

** Forward progressive comes in at 0:45 - watch the deep knee bend!
** Backward progressive comes in at 0:50

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oZaGYhcimUw

[Skittl1321]

No, a back progressive (if were talking ice dance now) is not anything like a back crossover.

You're right about a back crossover being similar to the way they're taught in ISI. In fact, kids who are competing at the Beta level have to do their crossovers this way and are not permitted to do the more advanced crossover where the foot remains on the ice. (Doing so calls for deductions...). So, no - a back crossover where the feet remain on the ice is not a progressive, but a more advanced crossover instead. Unless you're doing ice dance, you are not doing a back progressive, but a more advanced back crossover! :D


Okay, so I have a "more advanced" (but not advanced!) back crossover. I have never done, or judging by the videos- seen-, a progressive IRL.

So here's a new question- are progressives ever necessary in freeskate? Or is it all about ice dance?

[Skittl1321]

One of my favorite ice dances and the one I'm working on now, the Paso Doble, has great examples of a forward and backward progressive. You'll want to watch the girl's feet for these...:

** Forward progressive comes in at 0:45 - watch the deep knee bend!
** Backward progressive comes in at 0:50

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oZaGYhcimUw

I clearly have one of those "untrained eyes" because I didn't see the difference of a crossover/progressive AT ALL! However, that was a beautiful dance! Thanks for the video.

http://icepartnersearch.com/showbio.php?i=1653&PHPSESSID=f4eb91c45022e1d47d1d4518a8ecf1c2

This couple has nice fwd progressives--it's the first thing on the video. As I said, you may not see a huge difference; to the untrained eye you may not quite know what to look for.



Okay- now I see it! Wow, that push must be really hard to get. I think i'm sticking to step over crossovers for awhile!

[jskater49]

Okay, so I have a "more advanced" (but not advanced!) back crossover. I have never done, or judging by the videos- seen-, a progressive IRL.

So here's a new question- are progressives ever necessary in freeskate? Or is it all about ice dance?

As you progess in doing Moves, (which you'll have to pass if you want to test freestyle) judges are going to want to see more progressive-like crossovers - not so much keeping your foot on the ice but making sure you get as much push from the under cut as you do from the cross over.

j

[FLskater]

Here's an example of typical beginner crossovers, but the coach also shows more advanced ones (which you are again striving for) toward the end:
http://sports.expertvillage.com/videos/forward-crossovers-advanced-ice-skating.htm

I nearly fell over when I saw this! I used to skate down at Pines Ice Arena, even took a few makeup group lessons from him! He's a tough cookie- but a good coach!

[SynchroSk8r114]

I nearly fell over when I saw this! I used to skate down at Pines Ice Arena, even took a few makeup group lessons from him! He's a tough cookie- but a good coach!

Hahaha, glad to have made your day!

[phoenix]

So here's a new question- are progressives ever necessary in freeskate? Or is it all about ice dance?

You'll never have to do back progressives unless you do ice dance--or maybe synchro....

The fwd ones, as others have said, do become what the judges look for as you progress through moves. They look a lot nicer/smoother anyway, so you'll want to work on them just for general program skating too. You can tell the freestyle skaters who've worked on them or taken dance.

[quarkiki2]

I so much prefer forward progressives to forward crossovers. I feel about a thousand times more stable doing them and know that I'm using my edges and pushes properly. I learned them in a power skating class and remembered thinking, "WHY didn't I learn crossovers like this from the start?"

To me, it feels like the difference between doing an ISI back crossover and a more advanced back crossover -- it's the same difference in power and the same scissoring action with the pushes.

I hope that progressives are allowed ont he PB test, because I have no intention of not doing them when I test eventually, LOL!

[phoenix]

I hope that progressives are allowed ont he PB test, because I have no intention of not doing them when I test eventually, LOL!

By all means; the judges will love that.

[Team Arthritis]

OK I need some help on backward progressives - everytime I try to do them with anything like good posture and knee bend I catch a heel and go down. ANy tricks to keep the weight right on the blade?

Lyle

[SynchroSk8r114]

OK I need some help on backward progressives - everytime I try to do them with anything like good posture and knee bend I catch a heel and go down. ANy tricks to keep the weight right on the blade?

Lyle

Keep your hips forward with your knees slightly bent. Problems arise from arching your back while trying to push the hips forwards, so focus on pulling your bellybutton into your spine.

[phoenix]

And you *must* point your toes as you draw the foot back in, or the heel will come down & nail you. I try to think of having the toepick hit the ice first--not going to happen, but it keeps my toes pointed instead of relaxing/flexing the foot.

[sk8_4fun]

Well, I found something that might help you from youtube:
Here's a good example of more advanced backward crossovers, what you ultimately want to strive for:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GJpdWQLdle4

Here's an example of typical beginner crossovers, but the coach also shows more advanced ones (which you are again striving for) toward the end:
http://sports.expertvillage.com/videos/forward-crossovers-advanced-ice-skating.htm

thanks SynchroSk8r114! this is a useful rescource. I am currently taking my back crossovers to pieces ans re-learning them, this a huge help.

I'm learning back progressives too, I can't seem to eliminate that lovely scraping sound you get from the toe pick when you place the free foot behind the skating foot. any tips?:giveup:

[Team Arthritis]

And you *must* point your toes as you draw the foot back in, or the heel will come down & nail you. I try to think of having the toepick hit the ice first--not going to happen, but it keeps my toes pointed instead of relaxing/flexing the foot.

yeh that RRIIIPPP sound when my heel hits is kinda scary!

SynchroSk8r114 -> you know that's it! This may sound odd but I think that perhaps I'm bending my knees too deeply - sure it might look better but I think that I lose my control and strength.

So what is this with good posture? - standing up straight just ain't natural!:giveup: :roll:
Lyle

[blackmanskating]

Hey I that's what I do!!! I didn't even know that those particular "cross-overs" had a name. It's probably because my coach is a freestyle turned ice dancer, he taught me progressive cross-overs. I find them easier to do then picking up your foot to cross over. Because both feet are on the ice almost the entire time, you can change direction faster. I can't imagine doing the cross-over portion of the MITF test without it.


BlackManSkating

[jenlyon60]

Nope. backwards Dance Progressives are a totally different beast than back crossovers performed without picking up the feet. They are also a totally different skating move than the "pick your foot up and over" early version of a back crossover often taught in ISI or Basic Skills.

[Sessy]

Doing forward crossovers, I was never taught to pick my foot up, only to pick my toepick up. Also I was taught that you push off with the outside of the left leg AND the inside of the right leg (and vice versa for the other direction)... So is that still crossovers or is that progressives?
Anybody have a vid of forward progressives pretty please?

[renatele]

I see this question here so often... if I won't forget, I'll take my video camera with me tomorrow, and do a close-up of the feet showing forward cross-overs and progressives in slow tempo. Can't guarantee that they'll be as beautiful as the skaters' on the posted links, though :giveup:

[icedancer2]

Nope. backwards Dance Progressives are a totally different beast than back crossovers performed without picking up the feet. They are also a totally different skating move than the "pick your foot up and over" early version of a back crossover often taught in ISI or Basic Skills.

You hit the nail right on the head here, Jen, which is where I think a lot of the confusion comes into play. Back progressives are NOTHING like back-crossovers, but they are EXACTLY like front progressives (at least the way front progressives SHOULD be - with no crossed over of the foot AT ALL). Front progressives can LOOK like front cross-overs, but they are not the same, especially in dance.

I really wonder about teaching beginner cross-overs with such an obvious cross-over. I don't remember learning it that way. It is so mechanical. Then I wonder how on earth the student can get from that mechnical cross-over (with very little knee bend) to a nice forward cross-over with pushes under and nice bent knees. No wonder there is confusion about what is really supposed to be happening!

[dbny]

Then I wonder how on earth the student can get from that mechnical cross-over (with very little knee bend) to a nice forward cross-over with pushes under and nice bent knees. No wonder there is confusion about what is really supposed to be happening!

This is how: Cross over without picking up the crossing foot at all. This forces bent knees and an under push. After that exercise is mastered, the crossing foot can be picked up as you stroke and it follows the same trajectory across as if it were not being picked up. Nice smooth progressives are the result.

[icedancer2]

This is how: Cross over without picking up the crossing foot at all. This forces bent knees and an under push. After that exercise is mastered, the crossing foot can be picked up as you stroke and it follows the same trajectory across as if it were not being picked up.

But do people actually teach these two-footed cross-overs? (Yes I have done them, many times, good for working on power, too).

Nice smooth progressives are the result.

Actually nice, smooth crossovers are the result. Progressives do not cross!!

I guess this is why skating is best demonstrated visually than audially!:lol:

[SkatingOnClouds]

.....at least the way front progressives SHOULD be - with no crossed over of the foot AT ALL).....

I am relieved to read this, I was worrying I had been taught wrongly. I learned that it is more like a little run on ice, and that the foot must not cross in the process. It worried me reading here that it was basically a variety of crossover.

[Sessy]

So... Would it be sort of like a pumping motion like half swizzles in a way? Cuz if it is, that's what we call chassee and we were taught those before we were taught crossovers.

[dooobedooo]

"Progressive" is a shortened word for what was originally described as a "progressive run". My first teacher taught me that a progressive run consisted of three steps - for example, in the 14-step end pattern - LFO, RFI, LFO. I'm not sure if other skaters agree with the former; but anyway, a crossover is always just two steps, LFO, RFI. Crossovers are almost always slower; progressive runs are almost always faster.

In advanced crossovers, the outside foot does not cross as such, but the strong underpush, extension and toe point of the inside foot gives the appearance of the feet crossing. As crossovers are generally done more slowly, there is more time to do a significant extension on the inside foot. There is still an extension in a progressive run, but it is much shorter and quicker.

The important thing when doing fast progressive runs is to progress the body weight evenly, keeping down into the ice. The outside foot should always be under the hips and not in front of them. If you clomp one foot down in front of the body, the result will be jarring, and you won't progress evenly. At one point, my coach made me do crossovers/runs placing the outside foot NEXT TO the inside foot (not in front at all) because when you have good speed the body carries forward on the underpush - by the time the outside foot is really carrying the body, the inside foot is well behind.

There are a number of threads on this site which address the fact that an "advanced crossover" is really a "crossunder" = just do a search for "crossunder".

You have to work your crossovers to get a good progressive run. And it does take a couple of years to get really good crossovers.

However, it is helpful to learn "baby crossovers" before moving onto "advanced crossovers" - a bit like learning how to stand up, before you can run ....

[dbny]

But do people actually teach these two-footed cross-overs? (Yes I have done them, many times, good for working on power, too).

Actually nice, smooth crossovers are the result. Progressives do not cross!!


I do. I teach this exercise all the time. My own (former) coach never taught it, but DD learned it from a Russian coach and DH and I both liked it and were pleased with the results.

dooobedooo addresses your next comment rather nicely, IMO.

In advanced crossovers, the outside foot does not cross as such, but the strong underpush, extension and toe point of the inside foot gives the appearance of the feet crossing. As crossovers are generally done more slowly, there is more time to do a significant extension on the inside foot. There is still an extension in a progressive run, but it is much shorter and quicker.

I would add that at some fairly early point, the judges are looking for "progressive style crossovers" in MIF.

[quarkiki2]

I LOVE the two-footed crossover exercise. I use it to warm up every time I'm out there. And I do a two-footed cross, then repeat the underpush until I run out of steam.

[icedancer2]

I do. I teach this exercise all the time. My own (former) coach never taught it, but DD learned it from a Russian coach and DH and I both liked it and were pleased with the results.

This is great that you teach this - nice exercise!

I would add that at some fairly early point, the judges are looking for "progressive style crossovers" in MIF.

This is true, and herein lies the confusion in this discussion (which i don't know how to resolve) -- being that there are progressive-style crossovers and progressives which are two different animals (that look hauntingly alike to the naked eye!!:D )

Actually I think when this really comes up is in dance - some judges (moi) are picky about seeing actual progressives in dance whereas others may not be... it also depends on the angle from which you are watching whether you can pick up a true progressive vs someone doing more "progressive-style crossovers" in a dance (it also depends on the level being tested).

Great discussion.

To Sessy: Nope. Chasses are yet ANOTHER animal!! (which I believe come in two types: Chasses and slide chasses).

[dooobedooo]

... Actually I think when this really comes up is in dance - some judges (moi) are picky about seeing actual progressives in dance whereas others may not be...

Back progressives seem to be taught differently by different coaches. One dance coach taught me that the outside free foot comes down in line with (ie. directly behind) the skating foot. Another coach (just as good, maybe a regional thing) taught that the outside free foot comes down slightly to the side (and behind) the skating foot.

I've also had different coaches ask for different types of backwards cross-behind step.

If it becomes an issue, the only thing is to ask the lead judge in your area ... and do it how they like it ;)

Don't know whether anybody has any further light to shed ....? :??