Bielmann Spirals

[chowskates]

In another thread "skating video (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=23572)", Sessy posted about how to grab the blade for the bielmann spiral.

I just have a different way of doing it, and wonder if there are other opinions out there...

I have always grabbed the blade near the heel, and I remember observing skaters who do bielmann spins grab near the heel... And, as Sessy said, grab from the outside, rather then inside of the blade.

However, a few years ago, one coach told me, it'd be easier to grab around the heel, as it would bring the free leg higher. I do find it easier... maybe it is a flexibility thing?

Photos or videos?
This photo (http://chow.motani.net/images/%0904MCGLFS-spiral.JPG)) shows very clearly how I grab around the heel

I don't have a video of just the spiral alone, but I do it in my programs - the shortest one would be the exhibition skate I did after the Singapore Nationals last month: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUpEd2lkkWw

Cheers,
Chow

[jskater49]

My coach says, whatever works for you is the right way to grab your skate. When I had my session on these, she had me try many different ways up against the barrier....but she did say when you put your hand down to grab it, make sure your thumb is is toward the back of you.

And technically, it's only a Bielman if you bring it up over your head with both hands...and really that only applies to the spin, everything else is called a catchfoot spiral.

j

[Sessy]

Yeah I know our ballet teacher teaches it differently too but his way only works if you're already very flexible, if you're not, "my" (actually, a figure skating coach's at an other club on our rink) works better for slowly stretching it up...

But what I really meant was like... A lot of people simply put their arm back, thumb pointing down. This blocks the shoulder and you can't lift the leg at all.

[tidesong]

Well I don't know I'm probably one of the heel grabbers chow sees hehe
heres a pic...
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8696/skating6wd7.jpg

Jskater: Do you have any idea if all catch foots count for a difficult variation in spirals?

[jskater49]

Well I don't know I'm probably one of the heel grabbers chow sees hehe
heres a pic...
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8696/skating6wd7.jpg

Jskater: Do you have any idea if all catch foots count for a difficult variation in spirals?

I'm thinking any time you grab your skate, you get some extra points, which is why we see so many crappy ones nowadays. I would include mine in the crappy category. I can't reach with my opposite arm so I use same arm same leg but it throws off my balance and doesn't look nice at all. My coach told me I have more potential to have a nice looking one by grabbing my knee - apparantly that counts as a variation as well.

j

[doubletoe]

My coach says, whatever works for you is the right way to grab your skate. When I had my session on these, she had me try many different ways up against the barrier....but she did say when you put your hand down to grab it, make sure your thumb is is toward the back of you.

And technically, it's only a Bielman if you bring it up over your head with both hands...and really that only applies to the spin, everything else is called a catchfoot spiral.

j
IJS rules allow either a 2-hand or 1-hand hold on a Biellmann position (Mao Asada does a 1-arm Biellmann and manages to get her free foot high and directly above the head). But I do agree that they should define the free leg/foot position requirement more clearly for the level-raising variation of position, since Kimmie Meissner has been getting credit for a "Biellmann" spiral when it's just a catch foot with the free foot barely higher than head level (while she bows her head, no less) and held very far away from the head. Meanwhile, a more extended version of that position (but still not a "true" Biellmann) was not given credit for the Biellmann position at U.S. Adult Nationals last month. On spins, you get credit for a difficult variation of position by bringing the foot to the head ("haircutter" spin), even if it's lower than the head. But I don't think you get credit for that position on a spiral; only the Biellmann position and full split are considered difficult variations that raise the level of the spiral.

I can't do a Biellmann, only a catch foot spiral like Kimmie's (foot barely higher than head level, and very far away from the head), but I grab my right blade at the heel, with my right hand. My hand is turned out so that my palm is turned up and I grab the blade from underneath. I agree that--in theory at least-- you should end up with your free foot higher if you grab at the heel. That's because even though your arm is extended to the same degree, the entire foot will be higher than the hand if you're holding it at the heel (the foot will be level with or below the hand if you hold it at the toe).

[WannabeS8r]

When I do the Biellmann spiral using two hands to grab my skate, I usually grab the bottom of my blade. However, I also find it comfortable holding my ankle/leg, sort of, though my free foot won't go as high as with my hand on the blade. I dunno, I guess it really depends on what works for everyone else. When I do it, my skate is way above the head level, even though I usually use one hand to grab the blade (like Mao Asada does it). I think it's harder grabbing with both hands because you obviously can't stay as balanced.

[jazzpants]

Just my thing, but I'm afraid to grab it from the heel b/c I'm afraid the heel is gonna come off for some reason! :lol: But I do grab it from the blade area attached to the heel though, which would more likely pull the heel off the boot. (I think I'll try grabbing the back of the boot like that other picture have. Less scary to me. :D )

I barely a catch foot and trying to come up towards the head but it's not happening!!! :frus: (Bielmann? LMAO!!!! :twisted: :lol: )

Here's my photo! (I'm the teeny tiny person to the left of the BIG tall guy going into a spin.)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/210/481837419_a1de7c7736.jpg

[doubletoe]

Just my thing, but I'm afraid to grab it from the heel b/c I'm afraid the heel is gonna come off for some reason! :lol: But I do grab it from the blade area attached to the heel though, which would more likely pull the heel off the boot. (I think I'll try grabbing the back of the boot like that other picture have. Less scary to me. :D )

I barely a catch foot and trying to come up towards the head but it's not happening!!! :frus: (Bielmann? LMAO!!!! :twisted: :lol: )

Here's my photo! (I'm the teeny tiny person to the left of the BIG tall guy going into a spin.)

Sorry, I think that's what we all meant to say when we talked about grabbing the heel instead of the toe. You always have to grab the blade, since the boot (either heel or toe) would slip out of your hand too easily. But don't worry about pulling the heel off of the boot or pulling the blade off the boot. Look at the ice dancing spins and lifts they do where the man swings the lady around and she's only held together by grabbing the blade of one boot! That exerts lots of pull on that blade but it doesn't come off. ;)

[WannabeS8r]

Inspired by Jazzpants' photo (which looks pretty nice, btw :D), I've decided to post a picture of my "Biellmann" ... or how it looked like 4 months ago. I don't bend my knee anymore and my leg is a lot higher. Maybe I can get a picture/video of it this weekend.

http://i17.tinypic.com/40mthg1.png
Picture of my Biellmann Off ice (http://x03.xanga.com/aa4d2a6513030112097622/t79910567.png) (Right now on ice it's pretty similar, except my head is not leaning backwards.)

[chowskates]

IJS rules allow either a 2-hand or 1-hand hold on a Biellmann position (Mao Asada does a 1-arm Biellmann and manages to get her free foot high and directly above the head). But I do agree that they should define the free leg/foot position requirement more clearly for the level-raising variation of position, since Kimmie Meissner has been getting credit for a "Biellmann" spiral when it's just a catch foot with the free foot barely higher than head level (while she bows her head, no less) and held very far away from the head. Meanwhile, a more extended version of that position (but still not a "true" Biellmann) was not given credit for the Biellmann position at U.S. Adult Nationals last month.

I recall reading somewhere that in spirals, it is considered a difficult variation if the free foot is higher than the head - doesn't matter whether it is one- or two- han hold, or in 'biellmann position or not.

Cheers,
Chow

[chowskates]

Inspired by Jazzpants' photo (which looks pretty nice, btw :D), I've decided to post a picture of my "Biellmann" ... or how it looked like 4 months ago. I don't bend my knee anymore and my leg is a lot higher. Maybe I can get a picture/video of it this weekend.

http://i17.tinypic.com/40mthg1.png
Picture of my Biellmann Off ice (http://x03.xanga.com/aa4d2a6513030112097622/t79910567.png) (Right now on ice it's pretty similar, except my head is not leaning backwards.)

NICE!! I wish I had such flexibility...
:mrgreen:

[doofsy]

Hey Wannabesk8r....
Have you tried putting just your right skate on (on the floor) and practising the hand-hold on the blade..... You could definitely do a two handed Biellman (on ice) with your flexibility if you got the grasp right (from the outside of your skate, palm facing up-- pretty much what every one else said..lol) You have great flexibility!

[Sessy]

BTW, anybody looking to increase their back flexibility for the bielman:

So, try this position on the floor
http://www.yogaatwork.co.uk/images/cobra.jpg

You lay down, you put your feet together, wiggle with your pelvis so it's pressed down to the ground thoroughly, your hands you put down at shoulder level, then you push yourself up keeping the pelvis and hipbones pressed down (yeah I know the guy in the photo isn't entirely doing that). Keep for like 30 seconds, then release, then repeat.

Gradually. Else you end up with a back ache the day after.

Anyway so this makes your back more flexible and you can then bend backwards in the bielman so you can grab it with both hands.

[doubletoe]

I recall reading somewhere that in spirals, it is considered a difficult variation if the free foot is higher than the head - doesn't matter whether it is one- or two- han hold, or in 'biellmann position or not.

Cheers,
Chow

Hi, Chow! Wow, I sure would like for that to be true! Do you remember where you might have seen it?

According to the most recent ISU levels document posted on USFSA.org, there are 6 features that can raise the level of a spiral sequence, of which only the following two are based on flexibility:
(1) "Free leg in a total split position sideways or forward, one or both arms hold possible." (this is feature #6 on the list)
(2) "1 difficult variation of position" (feature #2 on the list)

Below the list of features, the document defines "difficult variation of position" with the following wording (which several technical specialists have told me basically means doing a Biellmann position):

Difficult Variation (of position):
"These are variations that affect the main body core position and balance, e.g. twisting the upper body, bending or pulling the upper body towards the skating leg, obtaining the Biellmann position. Only these variations can increase the Level."

In the ISU clarification document for technical specialists, a Biellmann position is defined as, "pulling the leg above and behind head level with either one or both hands."

This is all I have managed to find on the subject.

[chowskates]

Hi, Chow! Wow, I sure would like for that to be true! Do you remember where you might have seen it?

According to the most recent ISU levels document posted on USFSA.org, there are 6 features that can raise the level of a spiral sequence, of which only the following two are based on flexibility:
(1) "Free leg in a total split position sideways or forward, one or both arms hold possible." (this is feature #6 on the list)
(2) "1 difficult variation of position" (feature #2 on the list)

Below the list of features, the document defines "difficult variation of position" with the following wording (which several technical specialists have told me basically means doing a Biellmann position):

Difficult Variation (of position):
"These are variations that affect the main body core position and balance, e.g. twisting the upper body, bending or pulling the upper body towards the skating leg, obtaining the Biellmann position. Only these variations can increase the Level."

In the ISU clarification document for technical specialists, a Biellmann position is defined as, "pulling the leg above and behind head level with either one or both hands."

This is all I have managed to find on the subject.

Yep, that's what I have found. Does that not mean the leg just has to be above the head and behind (as opposed to in front)? It doesn't specify that the leg has to be directly above the head...

Or have I mis-interpreted it? :??

[doubletoe]

Yep, that's what I have found. Does that not mean the leg just has to be above the head and behind (as opposed to in front)? It doesn't specify that the leg has to be directly above the head...

Or have I mis-interpreted it? :??

You hit it right on the nose! Due to the vagueness of the wording (which is common in these ISU documents, unfortunately), there is quite a variation in what technical controllers consider a "Biellmann" position. At Worlds, any catch-foot spiral seems to be getting credit as a Biellmann, but it varies quite a bit at the lower level competitions. I think the wording really needs to be more specific, just for the sake of fairness and consistency.

[chowskates]

You hit it right on the nose! Due to the vagueness of the wording (which is common in these ISU documents, unfortunately), there is quite a variation in what technical controllers consider a "Biellmann" position. At Worlds, any catch-foot spiral seems to be getting credit as a Biellmann, but it varies quite a bit at the lower level competitions. I think the wording really needs to be more specific, just for the sake of fairness and consistency.

Well, I thought they were getting credit as being "a difficult feature", of which Bielmann is one. I'm not so sure about the lower level comps, but the main problem I've heard is failure to hold for 3 seconds, not that it doesn't count.

Anyway, I will see what happens at O'dorf! ;)

[chowskates]

You hit it right on the nose! Due to the vagueness of the wording (which is common in these ISU documents, unfortunately), there is quite a variation in what technical controllers consider a "Biellmann" position. At Worlds, any catch-foot spiral seems to be getting credit as a Biellmann, but it varies quite a bit at the lower level competitions. I think the wording really needs to be more specific, just for the sake of fairness and consistency.

BTW, I found this linked from the ISU website:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152073-169289-64128-0-file,00.pdf

In the "Free Program" section under "spins" , it says, simply:
"The Biellmann position is considered when the boot of the leg is above head-level".

[peanutskates]

ooh thankyou for the pic of the yoga man. I tried that (just once, to pace myself as I have overdone back stretches before) and now my back feels really flexible and nice...

[Sessy]

Oh you can do several in a row, just don't like, push to the point of painful discomfort. Anyway so far I've found it's really hard to do serious damage with this backstretch, as it's all passive.
I hope it works for you :)

[doubletoe]

BTW, I found this linked from the ISU website:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152073-169289-64128-0-file,00.pdf

In the "Free Program" section under "spins" , it says, simply:
"The Biellmann position is considered when the boot of the leg is above head-level".

Ah, got it. But I'm assuming that since the Biellmann position is defined in the spiral levels section as involving one or both hands holding the free foot/leg, this boot above head level thing must just be a clarification for when the skater is doing a catch foot position. Otherwise, I would think it would say, "A difficult variation of position" rather than specifying "The Biellmann position". What's your take on it?

[WannabeS8r]

Hey Wannabesk8r....
Have you tried putting just your right skate on (on the floor) and practising the hand-hold on the blade..... You could definitely do a two handed Biellman (on ice) with your flexibility if you got the grasp right (from the outside of your skate, palm facing up-- pretty much what every one else said..lol) You have great flexibility!


Thanks for the suggestion, doofsy. In the on ice picture I posted, I was aiming for this position. http://www.maomaiasada.com/photos/img/photo/jn06/JC1E4663.jpg HAHA, not very close. :giveup:

[doubletoe]

BTW, anybody looking to increase their back flexibility for the bielman:

So, try this position on the floor

You lay down, you put your feet together, wiggle with your pelvis so it's pressed down to the ground thoroughly, your hands you put down at shoulder level, then you push yourself up keeping the pelvis and hipbones pressed down (yeah I know the guy in the photo isn't entirely doing that). Keep for like 30 seconds, then release, then repeat.

Gradually. Else you end up with a back ache the day after.

Anyway so this makes your back more flexible and you can then bend backwards in the bielman so you can grab it with both hands.

Yes, I learned that one in a yoga class! To get the pelvis pressed flat to the ground, the instructor had us raise the right arm and left leg together, then left arm and right leg together 4-6 times before pushing up off the floor. It really helped!

[jazzpants]

I've done that pose before too and it's a very good back stretch! Haven't done them in a while. Maybe I should start up on it again.

(BTW: regarding the guy in the photo... HUBBA HUBBA HUBBA!!! http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/liebe/k050.gif Yeah, I know! I'm a sorry case!!! :P :lol: )

[Beccapoo2003]

Jazz, I agree about the guy in the photo!! (slurp)! BTW, your catch foot looks good! :D
Hugs,
Becca

[Sessy]

Yes, I learned that one in a yoga class! To get the pelvis pressed flat to the ground, the instructor had us raise the right arm and left leg together, then left arm and right leg together 4-6 times before pushing up off the floor. It really helped!

Yeah that's pretty much what happens wiggling the pelvis. :lol:
I had it originally for my broken back and stuff.

[chowskates]

Ah, got it. But I'm assuming that since the Biellmann position is defined in the spiral levels section as involving one or both hands holding the free foot/leg, this boot above head level thing must just be a clarification for when the skater is doing a catch foot position. Otherwise, I would think it would say, "A difficult variation of position" rather than specifying "The Biellmann position". What's your take on it?

Yep, that's what I'd take it to be. Again... will find out at O'dorf!

But I do know that the technical specialist who came to our Nationals would call my catch-foot as a "difficult variation" for a level.

[chowskates]

Yes, I learned that one in a yoga class! To get the pelvis pressed flat to the ground, the instructor had us raise the right arm and left leg together, then left arm and right leg together 4-6 times before pushing up off the floor. It really helped!

When I was small (as in, pre-teens!), we used to do that, and raise both feet to touch the back of our head (with upper thigh still on the ground).

I can no longer to that... :giveup:

[sue123]

When I was small (as in, pre-teens!), we used to do that, and raise both feet to touch the back of our head (with upper thigh still on the ground).

I can no longer to that... :giveup:

I did that when I was about 5 years old and in dance class. I remember my teacher pushing our feet and heads together to help us stretch. I used to do that no problems. Now... not even close.

[doubletoe]

Yep, that's what I'd take it to be. Again... will find out at O'dorf!

But I do know that the technical specialist who came to our Nationals would call my catch-foot as a "difficult variation" for a level.

Okay, be sure to report back! I think you should get the level. :D

[WannabeS8r]

I just stumbled upon a photo of a 'Biellmann', and I thought I'd share it.

http://i5.tinypic.com/67ycqvo.jpg

Now, that is just creepy. 8O

[doubletoe]

I just stumbled upon a photo of a 'Biellmann', and I thought I'd share it.

http://i5.tinypic.com/67ycqvo.jpg

Now, that is just creepy. 8O

Hey, that's cool! It's both a Biellmann AND a full split, so I wonder if it counts as 2 difficult variations of position, LOL!

[WannabeS8r]

Yeah, that girl has no bones. I wonder how the spin would look like. :lol:

And I thought I was flexible (at Biellmanns) http://i9.tinypic.com/521hdp4.jpg... LOL.

[doubletoe]

Yeah, that girl has no bones. I wonder how the spin would look like. :lol:

And I thought I was flexible (at Biellmanns) http://i9.tinypic.com/521hdp4.jpg... LOL.

Umm. . . Excuse me, but you are practically doing it already! If you just lock out the knee of the free leg and get your hands a few inches lower, you will be in the exact same position!

[Sessy]

Kicking this up, this is 1 way of doing it (but trying to teach it to a friend of mine I discovered that you need to have some sort of flexibility already before you even can grab the blade this way)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JeBL0o33jw&NR=1

I think it's a very clear video that's why I'm posting

[Verena]

Yeah, that girl has no bones. I wonder how the spin would look like. :lol:

And I thought I was flexible (at Biellmanns) http://i9.tinypic.com/521hdp4.jpg... LOL.

You are amazing! Could you describe how you grab your free leg from above the angle? When I try to do it I can only manage grabbing my toes - so I cannot lift the leg so high or straighten it so much. Please give so hints!

Thanks!

[Sessy]

Here's how the spin looks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkS2iRka6Hw

[Maris]

I did that when I was about 5 years old and in dance class. I remember my teacher pushing our feet and heads together to help us stretch. I used to do that no problems. Now... not even close.

I remember doing it also when about age 5-10... not anymore unfortunately. I wonder is it even possible to do for adults? :))
One of my true dreams is biellmann position, but I cannot stretch this direction, maybe my back isn`t strong enough? But I try to work on that and maybe there`s improvement by the fall... We`ll see
But your pictures get me really jealous!!

[Verena]

I remember doing it also when about age 5-10... not anymore unfortunately. I wonder is it even possible to do for adults? :))
One of my true dreams is biellmann position, but I cannot stretch this direction, maybe my back isn`t strong enough? But I try to work on that and maybe there`s improvement by the fall... We`ll see
But your pictures get me really jealous!!

It is possible for adults! I started skating at the age of 25, I had never had any classes of dance, gymnastics or anything similar and I got to do the splits and get into the bielmann position easily without any background. Don't give up!

[Maris]

Thank you for encouraging :)
I started at 24, now I`m 27, and every day I get stiffer! I am quite flexible though - can do splits, too, just the biellmann side is totally stiff!
Sometimes I think that ballet-lessons do no favour but the opposite :)
Anyway, I am not going to give up but keep going instead! These posts here can be really inspiring!
Maris

[doubletoe]

Yep, that's what I'd take it to be. Again... will find out at O'dorf!

But I do know that the technical specialist who came to our Nationals would call my catch-foot as a "difficult variation" for a level.

. . . AND you DID it! :bow: :D

Hey, I had a breakthrough today myself! Once I got my edge really stable and focused on pushing my pelvis down and straightening the free leg really hard, I managed to get my whole boot higher than my head this morning on my RFi-RFO spiral (after the change of edge)! My coach was the witness. Then, although it took awhile, I was able to do it on the LBI spiral, too! :D Now I just need to get to the point where they are consistent and I can get them that high quickly.

[Mercedeslove]

BTW, anybody looking to increase their back flexibility for the bielman:

So, try this position on the floor
http://www.yogaatwork.co.uk/images/cobra.jpg

You lay down, you put your feet together, wiggle with your pelvis so it's pressed down to the ground thoroughly, your hands you put down at shoulder level, then you push yourself up keeping the pelvis and hipbones pressed down (yeah I know the guy in the photo isn't entirely doing that). Keep for like 30 seconds, then release, then repeat.

Gradually. Else you end up with a back ache the day after.

Anyway so this makes your back more flexible and you can then bend backwards in the bielman so you can grab it with both hands.

I just lol'd at his nipple

[WannabeS8r]

You are amazing! Could you describe how you grab your free leg from above the angle? When I try to do it I can only manage grabbing my toes - so I cannot lift the leg so high or straighten it so much. Please give so hints!

Thanks!

Thank you! This video basically sums up how I do that particular position. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz3ORM28sEE (at 0:39) I'm sure you'll get there with just a little practice... after all, half an year ago, I was the most inflexible person. EVER. And I am NOT kidding.

[chowskates]

. . . AND you DID it! :bow: :D

Yep, thanks! :) :) :)

I will probably have to try it with change of edge too... the new rules make it harder for me to get features in the spiral sequence :P

Cheers,
Chow

[Sessy]

Here's some bielmans that will make you go OHH and AHH

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4193/caroline20zhang20jlfs209xh.jpg
Caroline Zhang

http://foto.m.onet.pl/_m/d75231ccfdf06d6e1eebc8c08cdd3afa,14,19,0.jpg
Fleur Maxwell


I seriously intend to learn the bielman the way Zhang does it on the above pic haha! :lol: I'm halfway (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3w6QQTf_4w) there anyway.

[doubletoe]

Here's some bielmans that will make you go OHH and AHH

I seriously intend to learn the bielman the way Zhang does it on the above pic haha! :lol: I'm halfway (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3w6QQTf_4w) there anyway.

. . . and maybe make you go, "OW!!" 8O

[Sessy]

LOL yeah Fleur Maxwell's looks... Unhealthy to say the least.

[WhisperSung]

I'm going to try to revive this thread because I just discovered it. I've been trying to increase my flexibility to be able to do a proper catchfoot spiral for a while now.

I can nearly do the full splits on both legs (can't do middle splits at all due to hip problems), so I think it might be my lack of back flexibility that's doing it. I saw some suggestions to practice yoga to help that, but I'm wondering if anyone has any other suggestions.

Basicially, I can grab my right leg with my right hand and pull my leg into the catchfoot position, but I have difficulties grabbing my blade (or even my right arm) with my left arm. Sometimes I wonder if it's also a shoulder flexibility problem.

I seriously have no idea why I even want to be able to do this. I think I'm just being a bit stubborn, because I want to prove to myself that it is possible to gain flexibility and do a move like this that I didn't do all that often as a child. My flexibility has remained the same for several years, and I want to see if I can increase it a bit. :)

[doubletoe]

Basicially, I can grab my right leg with my right hand and pull my leg into the catchfoot position, but I have difficulties grabbing my blade (or even my right arm) with my left arm. Sometimes I wonder if it's also a shoulder flexibility problem.

Do you mean you have trouble grabbing your left blade with your left arm or grabbing your right blade with your left arm? I find that it requires less back flexibility to grab the free foot with the same side arm, since that allows some of the back bend to come from the side (where there is no stiff spine involved). When you grab the free foot with the opposite side arm, you have to bend straight back and it's hard to do without a very flexible spine.

[WannabeS8r]

I seriously intend to learn the bielman the way Zhang does it on the above pic haha! :lol: I'm halfway (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3w6QQTf_4w) there anyway.

I agree, Caroline does some wacky moves. I can do that curl Biellmann off ice (in fact it's in one of my videos) but never will I be able to spin in it. This girl has no spine at all:

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3796/exhibition1rz0.jpg

Jeezz... This is incredible as well:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/ems_loves_kelly/Mirai%20Nagasu/Miraipract.jpg

[doubletoe]

I agree, Caroline does some wacky moves. I can do that curl Biellmann off ice (in fact it's in one of my videos) but never will I be able to spin in it. This girl has no spine at all:

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3796/exhibition1rz0.jpg

Jeezz... This is incredible as well:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/ems_loves_kelly/Mirai%20Nagasu/Miraipract.jpg

Who is that, Mirai?

[WhisperSung]

doubletoe: I totally can't do the high catchfoot by grabbing the blade with the opposite arm. Hardly even try it! What I'm having problems with is making the catchfoot look like a true biellmann by grabbing the blade with both hands. I can grab the right blade with my right hand (doing the up-turned palm/finger hold) and pull the boot over my head. When it requires me to bend straighter back to get the free leg within grabbing distance, I just can't do it. I can sort of grab my right arm with my left hand to assist it up (I think Irina Slutskaya does this whereas some of the more flexible skaters grab the blade with both hands).

I think my main problem is my lack of flexibility on my left side. I can bend pretty deeply sideways to my right (making it easy to grab my foot for the catchfoot), but when it comes to bending more evenly back, I have problems.

It's late, and I have no idea if that made any sense. :P

[doubletoe]

Well, I am very impressed that you can get it over your head regardless of how you do it! The one-handed Biellmann is worth just as much as the two-handed one, though, so it might not be worth worrying about unless you just *need* something to obsess over, LOL!

[Sessy]

That's good to know, considering I put my toes on top of my head at the sport centre where my bf beefs up yesterday, but no way I can do it 2-armed. :lol:

But now what puzzles me, I thought Joan Haanappel (who generally comentates all big competitions here) referred to Slutskaya's right-arm-to-left-leg grab as bonus points generator?

[doubletoe]

That's good to know, considering I put my toes on top of my head at the sport centre where my bf beefs up yesterday, but no way I can do it 2-armed. :lol:

But now what puzzles me, I thought Joan Haanappel (who generally comentates all big competitions here) referred to Slutskaya's right-arm-to-left-leg grab as bonus points generator?

No distinction has been made in the rules between same hand hold vs. opposite hand hold. Is it possible that Joan Haanappel was just referring to the Bielmann position in general when she made that comment?

[Sessy]

No she said very specifically about the grabbing with the opposing hand... Maybe she wasn't entirely clear on the new rules though? After all, Joan is an elderly lady who was skating for the Netherlands long before they took figures out of figure skating.

About the general bielman position she said (in the case of Slutskaya specifically, since she mentioned it a few times during the olympics) "oh and there's yet another one who puts her foot to her head... and her other foot to her head... well of course they do, that makes them points!" (approximately, I'm digging from a 1,5 year old memory here).

[doubletoe]

Well, that's true, Irina would do everything in a Bielmann position except for her jumps, LOL! I think that's one of the reasons they started limiting the number of Bielmann positions you could get credit for in a program.

By the way, that picture above is definitely Mirai Nagasu. She skated at a local fundraising event I went to last night and she did that Bielmann as well as the eat-your-heel variation. She also did her version of Caroline's "pearl" position, which was almost the same but didn't have the free leg up as high. If I had just a bit of that back flexibility!. . . Sigh. . . :roll:

[Sessy]

Yeah well I'm a big Slutskaya fan and not just because the bielman is my favourite non-jumping move. Despite that ridiculous fall in competition, it's still the one thing I do best. So I'm sure gonna use it to the fullest I can for points. :twisted:

Doubletoe, part of my back flexibility is coming from a broken&sunk in vertebrae, which won't let me lift anything over 10 pounds or sleep on my back at night or curl my back forwards and is only starting to let me breathe freely after about 10 years of not doing so... Essentially, because the sunken vertebrae doesn't take up as much space at the back of the spine, I have some extra room to fold backwards. Kind of like chinese and mongolese girls who are missing a vertebrae, except they have it from birth.

So if you REALLY want a bit of back flexibility.... Can be arranged. :twisted: Just kidding. ;)

[Thin-Ice]

No she said very specifically about the grabbing with the opposing hand... Maybe she wasn't entirely clear on the new rules though? After all, Joan is an elderly lady who was skating for the Netherlands long before they took figures out of figure skating.

About the general bielman position she said (in the case of Slutskaya specifically, since she mentioned it a few times during the olympics) "oh and there's yet another one who puts her foot to her head... and her other foot to her head... well of course they do, that makes them points!" (approximately, I'm digging from a 1,5 year old memory here).

Is it possible she was referring to the extra points generated by doing both right and left footed Biellman positions, since one is a spin and the other is a backspin.... and the hand Slutskaya holds the blade with does not make a difference?

[Sessy]

The original was something along the lines of, "En ze haalt haar andere voet ook naar haar hoofd toe... Want ja dat levert natuurlijk punten op". I don't know, I can't read the commentor's mind. The way I understood it was that it referred specifically to the motion of bringing the other foot to the head but you never know how something was intended to be. You know it's live commenting so, people who are speaking in the spur of the moment tend to forget what they said a few seconds ago, so it could've referred to something other than what it sounded like.

[doubletoe]

Yeah well I'm a big Slutskaya fan and not just because the bielman is my favourite non-jumping move. Despite that ridiculous fall in competition, it's still the one thing I do best. So I'm sure gonna use it to the fullest I can for points. :twisted:

Doubletoe, part of my back flexibility is coming from a broken&sunk in vertebrae, which won't let me lift anything over 10 pounds or sleep on my back at night or curl my back forwards and is only starting to let me breathe freely after about 10 years of not doing so... Essentially, because the sunken vertebrae doesn't take up as much space at the back of the spine, I have some extra room to fold backwards. Kind of like chinese and mongolese girls who are missing a vertebrae, except they have it from birth.

So if you REALLY want a bit of back flexibility.... Can be arranged. :twisted: Just kidding. ;)

Wow. Does that make it difficult for you to do sitspins? Or are sitspins okay because you are bending at the hips but not rounding your back?

[Raye]

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb3/rayeryan/008_8a.jpg

My eight year old granddaughter - not quite a biellman spiral yet, but with posture like this, she is well on her way

[emkayy]

Raye-
she's so cute! She'll have it in no time. We have this one girl at our rink who must be around 10-12 and she can get her leg up over her head.
I'm still trying to keep my balance when I bring my foot up! :roll: :lol:

[Sessy]

Wow. Does that make it difficult for you to do sitspins? Or are sitspins okay because you are bending at the hips but not rounding your back?

I can't do a sitspin yet and I can't really figure out why. Though I have a suspect. But I do have a pretty great hydroblade but I'm either on the sweet spot or on the back of my blade doing those. I can't seem to get close enough to the front of my blade to do a sit spin yet, because the muscles of my back thighs don't seem to be long enough yet, but I'm trying really hard to stretch them over the summer. So yes I think I'm bending at the hips indeed, else why'd I need longer thigh muscles?
I can bend at the shoulders too though, just not at the spot of that vertebrae. You know the kind of sit-ups where you don't sit up entirely but just curl your back a little? Those I can't do.

Anyway I'm so used to it I don't notice it until I start over-analyzing things. Really the only thing that bothers me is not being able to breathe when lifting a bag of trash. Cuz with everything else, I just lift it and put it on the top of my head, click my spine back in place and then I can carry even heavy stuff and still be able to breathe, but I can't put trash bags on my head can I? Well I could... :roll: :lol: :twisted:

[jskater49]

Well, that's true, Irina would do everything in a Bielmann position except for her jumps, LOL! I think that's one of the reasons they started limiting the number of Bielmann positions you could get credit for in a program.



Snort. I always suspected the reason they decided to give Bielmans so much credit was BECAUSE they wanted to help Irina out. But then I have consipiracy issues when it comes to the ISU.

j

[doubletoe]

I can't do a sitspin yet and I can't really figure out why. Though I have a suspect. But I do have a pretty great hydroblade but I'm either on the sweet spot or on the back of my blade doing those. I can't seem to get close enough to the front of my blade to do a sit spin yet, because the muscles of my back thighs don't seem to be long enough yet, but I'm trying really hard to stretch them over the summer.

If you can do a shoot-the-duck, then you should probably have no trouble doing a sitspin. Before concluding that your hamstrings (the muscles on the backs of your thighs) are the problem, try this method for getting your weight on the front of the blade: Make sure you are on the ball of your blade. Once your free leg is in front of you, turned out and touching the skating leg, lower your butt and push your free leg forward until you feel the top of the calf of your skating leg pressing against the inside of the thigh of your free leg. The lower you go, the more you need to push your free leg forward and let your free leg go lower than the knee of the skating leg. Try the position on a backward shoot-the-duck first, and make sure you can get enough on the front of the blade so that your toepick starts scraping.

[Sessy]

I'm serious about stretching the back of my legs helping for the sit spin, as ridiculous as it sounds. I can't even get on the ball of the foot doing one on the floor on my GOOD side (which is right, not left unfortunately) without stretching, let alone on my bad side.
I'm practicing the shoot the ducks on rollers this summer, doing inside backward shoot the ducks trying to stay on the forward inside wheel (after I'm done with this, I think I'll be doing outside-inside edge-change backward shoot the ducks just for fun haha - might even try a switch from back to forward LOL!) And I can get deeper after I've stretched without ending up on the back wheels again. I do keep the knees sort of together, but I'll try the pushing the free leg thing next! I don't get it though - won't it push the hips out of whack too?

[doubletoe]

I do keep the knees sort of together, but I'll try the pushing the free leg thing next! I don't get it though - won't it push the hips out of whack too?

No, it won't. What it will do is push your entire body closer to the skating foot so that your body is not pulling you back onto your heel.

[southernsk8er]

No, it won't. What it will do is push your entire body closer to the skating foot so that your body is not pulling you back onto your heel.

I think my coach was trying to explain that to me the other day, and it made NO sense. Now I get it - Thanks doubletoe!

I just started working on the catchfoot spiral grabbing my left blade with my right hand. Like the Mao Asada pic except I'm on a RBO edge, and I look much more pathetic :lol: However, I've been catching the blade in the middle, and now I'm going to try grabbing around the heel instead. Appreciate the advice about stretching the back too. Another great thread!