"Adult" skating

[Casey]

So this whole Mr. Edge thread has me thinking about things, and since I've been looking at skating stuff on the internet, there's a whole huge distinction for "adult skaters". Certain rinks are "adult-friendly", others are not, certain sessions are "adult only", others are not. And so on and so forth...

Now while I'm no fan of Mr. Edge, it seems that a lot of folks seem set on getting some sort of special treatment just because they're adults, while at the same time not wanting to be considered any different ability-wise from their younger counterparts.

All that I can say from all that I've seen is that there are no certainties. Skaters starting as adults have the same opportunities as younger skaters. We like to say "well we don't have the time" - well, as a parent of a skater now, I can say that my son has no more time than me - he has school and daycare during the time I'm at work and can't simply skate all day long.

Are children any more likely to succeed than adults? Percentagewise, I don't really think so. I have seen a crazy number of kids come and go from the rinks during my skating odyssey, but not many that stick for too long. Adults come and go too, but there are less of them, and more of them stay for a long time (and we harass the ones that leave and urge them to come back more than the kids get from their peers I'm sure).

I've seen numerous people who have started in their 20's or 30's, and are working on double jumps and gorgeous combination spins, so it's certainly possible for adults to learn with the right mindset and coaching.

I started skating almost 2 and a half years ago now, and when I count up all the people I know who are still skating that were skating when I started, there are about the same number of adults and kids, with slightly more adults that I can think of.

Sure, some adults have physical limitations. But guess what? So do a lot of kids. Not every kid is capable of going out there and getting the leg strength and quickness it requires to be really good - most in fact don't.

What's with adult-only sessions? Apparently some people like them because they're less intimidating than regular freestyle sessions. Well guess what, it's not just adults that are intimidated. We, as adults, need to grow up and get over it. :)

So, long story short, I think we all have the same capabilities. While I don't think that adults should be excluded from things, neither do I think we deserve any sort of special treatment. I think what bothers me most about the last Mr. Edge column, for instance, is not that it made inaccurate and condescending statements (which happened to be about adults in this case) - his column is always inaccurate and condescending...but that it singled out adult skaters. It irks me to see any sort of "Adult" skating article - why can't the article simply talk about skaters in general? It also bothers me to see folks here ward away younger skaters because they have the audacity to claim this is some sort of "adult" haven. I feel that with the attitude of "we need adult-only things", we're just perpetuating age discrimination.

Anyways, just rambling on a bit. Been quiet too much lately. :P Thoughts and (friendly) debates welcomed. :)

[Rusty Blades]

How old are you? There is a huge difference between 25 and 55 so I am wondering what "experience group" you fall in.

I have skated MANY rinks in the past year and I will say that there most certainly "unfriendly" rinks when the parent of little tots seem to feel that an adult on the ice is a "waste of time and space".

Skating with tots who pay no attention to where they are going or what is around them is a bad situation when you have a skater who out-weighs them by 100 pounds (or more!). I don't want to hurt somebody's child but I also get VERY P.O.ed when I have to keep breaking off my moves for some little tyke who shows no courtesy or no awareness of anyone else. (Maybe they learn this attitude from the parent who thinks adults don't belong there?)

The best and most productive ice time I have is at one "competitive training centre" where everybody there is training for competition (there is awareness and RESPECT all around) and another rink where the youngest skater is in their mid-20's (also awareness).

I don't think adults expect "special treatment". We just want to be recognized as following a valid passtime (same as the kids) and recognize that adult have a different learning style. We also have "more on the line" in that most of us can not afford to get injured or incapacitated as we don't have Mommy & Daddy to put food on the table.

Just my thoughts.....

[flo]

Not special treatment, but different. To understand this you have to understand that there is a real difference in adults and kids. This issue has been discussed to death, if you're really inrerested you may want to search the archives.

[Bill_S]

I have skated MANY rinks in the past year and I will say that there most certainly "unfriendly" rinks when the parent of little tots seem to feel that an adult on the ice is a "waste of time and space".s.....

Hmm, I've never been aware of that kind of feeling at any rink I've been to (about 6 different rinks). Not from the parents at least.

However, I've been buzzed by teenage hotshots who inhabit distant rinks. Apparently they are claiming their space in their home rink and I generally give them some room if I don't have to get in the way. However, I don't intimidate easily and will not back down when I have the right of way. Abundant mass has its advantages.

Still, the parents never say a thing to me nor do I overhear comments that would discourage me from skating there. I've been lucky, I guess.

[southernsk8er]

i have to disagree with a few things. first of all, adults do learn differently from kids. i have spoken to adults who learned as kids and then came back, and even they say it's different, even though they've done it before. for one thing, most kids (who skate regularly) have less fear than adults. for another thing, most of them are much, much closer to the ice, which means lower center of gravity. look at any sport - don't high achievers usually start as 3-7 year olds? olympic and world championships are filled with teenagers, for heaven's sake.

second, as far as i can tell, serious kids get to skate a lot more than serious adults. this may not be true for everyone at every rink, but it's definitely what i see here. kids may have school like we have work, but some of us squeeze skating in with 2 jobs (or more). some of us don't make enough money to have 3-4 lessons a week and skate 6-10 freestyles a week. i personally could never afford to hire 3 coaches for 5 lessons a week, or travel to another state to work with a special choreographer like one of our best skaters here does!

third, i have to agree with rusty blades that adults are treated differently by parents of child skaters. they act like we're in the way. they don't understand why we skate at all. they think we look dumb next to their kid(s) who had no problem with a camel spin or an axel. they glare at us when we get close to running over their little darlings, even when it's not our fault. "adults only" or "competitive only" skates are a relief, because most adults have more awareness of where they are in relation to others, and because we take up a lot more space in general.

i've picked up things fairly quickly and skate as much as i can, but i still can't keep pace with a young friend who started at age 12, is several inches shorter than i am, and gets twice as much coaching and ice time. adult skaters do deserve special recognition, because it is hard to start a new, highly physical sport at age 25 or 55. maybe it's just me, but judging from other adults i've talked to, i don't think so.

[cecealias]

Given average physical ability it's a mental block that holds people back regardless of age. In general, as people grow older, they tend to have more physical limitations and fear. But it does not apply consistently to all people:

This girl I used to skate with started when she was 17. She was so scared to fall she never made it past a flip or lutz, and she always skated really slow and tentatively. Same case with a gal who started skating around 24.

this guy started at 38 almost 40. has gorgeous perfectly centered spins, great edges and flow across the ice. he's learning an axel now in his mid 40s. A woman I know started skating at 56 and has also no fear of trying to land jumps and spins and skates with speed and strong solid edges. Myself, I started at 25 in figure skating and I'm well into doubles and high level moves and spins.

So, it's not age discrimination, it's an "on -average" limitations for people as they age. It usually doesn't apply to people who were previously reasonable athletes in other sports, as they have already developed the mental-physical skills and toughness to deal with bumps and bruises in sports.

[jskater49]

third, i have to agree with rusty blades that adults are treated differently by parents of child skaters. they act like we're in the way. they don't understand why we skate at all. they think we look dumb next to their kid(s) who had no problem with a camel spin or an axel. they glare at us when we get close to running over their little darlings, even when it's not our fault. "adults only" or "competitive only" skates are a relief, because most adults have more awareness of where they are in relation to others, and because we take up a lot more space in general.



I have to say, I have NEVER been treated like that by parents where I have skated at 3 different rinks. I've found club parents to be supportive of me. Clubs are usually just happy to have someone paying for ice, regardless of how old they are. One should never generalize.

j

[skaternum]

Why are we having this exact same conversation all over again?? No one ever changes their opinion. :frus: This is Adult Skating's version of the abortion debate.

[jazzpants]

Why are we having this exact same conversation all over again?? No one ever changes their opinion. :frus: This is Adult Skating's version of the abortion debate.Here here! Solves nothing and gets everyone upset!!! Let's agree to disagree, shall we? :giveup:

[Casey]

Not special treatment, but different. To understand this you have to understand that there is a real difference in adults and kids. This issue has been discussed to death, if you're really inrerested you may want to search the archives.
I don't really need to read the archives, it's because I've been reading all of the posts for years that it was on my mind.

To address the other things:

Yes, if kids at a rink are discriminating against adults, it needs to be addressed. Addressing the problem does not mean discriminating back. In my mind adult-only sessions are discriminating back. How would we like it if they had under-18-only sessions during the times we'd like to skate?

Sure, learning is usually easier at younger ages when the brain is still growing. But that is not always the case. And where do you draw the line between starting age? If you start at age 15 are you considered an outcast from both the younger and older groups? Sadly, even starting at 24, I see a lot of attitudes like "oh you don't count as a REAL adult skater". (Yeah, Rusty, I mean your comment too ;) - I do get your point, but I don't think it matters if you start at 15, 25, 55, or 85).

Sure, there are differences, but what it comes down to is that everyone on the ice needs to be aware of their surroundings and try not to run into people. If a younger skater commonly runs into older skaters that should be addressed, but not with some sort of age-based preferential treatment, but instead with standard rules that have the same consequences whether you cause repeated problems for younger or older folks. From what I've seen, when there's a highly-accomplished skater on the ice, they tend to take the right of way more often than not - they don't act differently towards adults or kids, it's just that kids tend to stay out of their way better so they're annoyed when adults don't follow suite. The cause of the problem in those cases is not usually "adults", but rather "people who move slow and aren't mindful of higher-level skaters". Now I'm not saying that higher-level skaters should act this way, but it's the behavior that needs to be addressed, not the age group.

Yeah, some kids get serious and as a result get a lot of ice time. But I've also seen some adults (myself included) at the rink even more often than them at certain periods of time. Yes, there may be a very real difference between ability limits when you start talking about extremes like quad and triple jumps, but there's not that many skaters in most areas pushing those extremes, period.

Even if the average for adults versus youths are significantly different (which I think is really blown out of proportion), I don't think people should be pre-judged based on said averages. If I were to say "most young boys are more mischievous than most young girls" and tried to make girl-only sessions, there would be a huge outcry about discrimination, as well there should be.

Moreover, I've seen more issues with adults complaining over non-issues than kids. Kids will tend to let things go easier, whereas adults will more often head up to the rink manager and make wild claims like "so and so ALMOST hit me!!" when nothing actually happened. Yes, this does happen like southernsk8er said too, where parents will come up and be nasty because you ALMOST hit their kids. Hmm, what's familiar here? it's the "adults" acting like children that's causing the problem. It's up to each skater to judge their skill level and their surroundings to see how close they can get past another skater in their way without causing danger. Unless they actually run into you, why complain about this supposed "threat" to the adult community. If a skater does injure somebody, then that can and will be dealt with accordingly, regardless of their age.

I don't have a problem with level-based sessions, even when they exclude me. But I don't agree with age-based sessions.

[Casey]

I have to say, I have NEVER been treated like that by parents where I have skated at 3 different rinks. I've found club parents to be supportive of me. Clubs are usually just happy to have someone paying for ice, regardless of how old they are. One should never generalize.
This is exactly what I mean to say. Yes, averages and probabilities do exist, but generalizations based on them should not.

Why are we having this exact same conversation all over again?? No one ever changes their opinion. :frus: This is Adult Skating's version of the abortion debate.
I don't know skaternum, why was it okay for you to post your opinion on the recent Mr. Edge thread, but it's not okay for me to post mine here?

Discussing opinions is what forums are for. If you don't like it, you don't have to read this thread. :) Sometimes people do change their opinions - I've changed a lot since I first came here, and if I can help even one person be a little bit more considerate to humanity in general regardless of age, then I've succeeded in today's mission. :D

[BatikatII]

Well from my experience there is a big difference between adults and kids. Although I dont' believe adults should get special treatment just because they are adults, they do need some different treatment since most competitive stuff in skating is set up for kids with age limits for the different levels. We can't compete in the kids comps so we do need special adult comps. I would not advocate adult only patches (freestyle) but that presupposes there are no limitations on adults attending the usual patches (freestyle). At my rink there aren't but at some rinks there are.

The differences between adults and kids in general tend to become more marked with increasing age at which the adult starts. This applies much less if the adult had been active in other sports - particularly gymnastics and to a lesser extent dance - as many of the skills for these are transferable, or has been a roller blader as a kid.

We can always spot the adult who learned as a child. Doesn't matter if they learned only for a short time and then took a long break. They will still always have a look of being much more at ease on the ice than any adult who learns as an adult. They may not have the jumps etc but it shows in the basic skating. I have worked long and hard to try to overcome the 'adult skater look' and it is very hard for someone who was not an active sportsperson as a child and started skating in their late 30's.

I started at 38 along with my 8 year old daughter and 10 year old son. We did the same group lessons (which incidentally were my idea - I dragged the kids along because I wanted to skate). Son was a naturally gifted skater who breezed through the levels skipping several along the way. He took private lessons eventually (shared with daughter), never practised, spent only about an hour a week on the ice and still progressed really quickly, reaching UK level 5 (axel, double sal, flying camel etc.) (and competing nationally in pairs too) before quitting at 14.

Daughter was a more average skater and I managed to keep up with her through the learn to skate levels. After that she whizzed past me, even though I was the one more motivated to skate, took more private lessons and practised more. I still skate more than she does yet she is 4 levels ahead of me (and did pairs too with her brother). I did do dance and that helped my basic skating but it will never look like it would have done had I started at 5 or 15 or even 25.

The difference - in free skating - fear and health but mostly fear I think as far as jumps go and that held me back. However in our basic skating there is just no comparison. Take out the jumps and both son and daughter just look comfortable on skates. There is an ease to their skating which I can never emulate so there must be other factors at work on adults. The bad habits of posture and learned behaviour is hard to overcome. As kids they are still learning everything so skating is just one more thing to add to the repertoire. It is acquired much more naturally.

The older you get the more you have learned patterns of behaviour to overcome. A young adult (in their 20's) has less of these while a returning skater no matter the age, has somewhere ingrained, the patterns learned as a youngster including skating. Just like you never forget how to ride a bike I don't think you ever forget how to skate if you learned young. It may take a while to get the hang of it again but they are still way ahead of those who never skated as kids.

Most things are done better by those who learned young including languages, playing instruments etc.

Doesn't mean a high standard can't be reached by the older folk but it definitely is harder to achieve.

Maybe a particularly naturally gifted adult could do better than an untalented youngster (who have the same opprotunities) but in the long run I wouldn't bet on it.

Of course I am still better than those kids who took the same learn to skate course and then gave up but even the least able kid on that course (who is still skating) is way better than me now. :cry:

The good things about not having skated as a kid? - well I don't yet have to worry about having lost the ability to do something I could do before, while returning skaters are often bemoaning the fact that they used to be able to do doubles and can't now!

[jskater49]

I think adults who think they should be treated just like kids can take that option - skate the standard track and let those of us who are not the least bit insulted by a different standard do our thing.

And Casey I think its funny you saying you are against generalizations when you turn around and say it's the adults who make a big issue out of things. That also has not been my experience.

j

[garusha]

[QUOTE=BatikatII;318105]
Most things are done better by those who learned young including languages, playing instruments etc.

Here is something I completely disagree with. I teach languages, and I know from my personal experience that adults learn faster than kids. Actually the best age for learning foreign languages is late teens, or even twenties. I worked with little kids - five-and-six-year-olds, and boy, was it difficult! Children do pick up certain things fast, but their long-term memory isn't particularly strong, so they forget what they have learned easily.
However, when it comes to skating, children learn faster, of course. But even this rule isn't without exceptions. I know this girl at our rink, she's about 16-17. I saw her last year, when I first started skating, and she was way behind other girls. Now, a year later, she is still practicing the same moves, and it doesn't look like she is getting any better. It's hard to tell why.

[Hannah]

At my rink they have Adult Skate early in the morning (they used to have afternoon sessions too, but I think that nobody went). My rink considers adults to be age 13 and up for the purposes of adult skate, and occasionally we get a middle or high-school higher level skater. I think the implication at my rink is that you count as an adult if you are mature and aware of your surroundings.

I love adult skate, primarily because I'm not skating with a constant fear of running over one of the tiny hockey hooligans (because I would win in that crash, and I don't want to squish anyone!). I also love the other adult skaters- totally a great source of role models for the 25-year-old baby of the group! :bow: Without the adult skate sessions, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be skating.

*shrug* at the other debate here. The issues all seem too individually based to generalize much.

[Casey]

I think adults who think they should be treated just like kids can take that option - skate the standard track and let those of us who are not the least bit insulted by a different standard do our thing.
Oh, I wasn't talking about the judging/competition systems - I don't really have a problem with those - more what bothers me are the age-limited freestyle sessions and general sorts of attitudes that a lot of adult skaters seem to have.

And Casey I think its funny you saying you are against generalizations when you turn around and say it's the adults who make a big issue out of things. That also has not been my experience.
What has yours been? I'm not saying that kids don't do the same thing in reverse, they likely do too, but as of yet, I have only seen one youth skater online post anything negative about adult skaters, while I have seen quite a few adult skaters posting negative bits about younger skaters.

* The only people who have ever gotten upset with me over something that they thought COULD have happened but never did have been adults.

* The only people I've seen wanting a session specific to their age group have been adults (no youth-only sessions that I've seen anyways).

* The only people that I see complaining that they don't get enough consideration (i.e. more adult-specific content in Skating magazine) are adults...

Now I'm not saying that all the kids out there are necessarily perfect, but from what I've been exposed to (which isn't exactly limited), I just see more problems arising from adults, and I'm of the opinion that we as adults should instead be acting as role models rather than whining about how we're not included, don't have exclusive sessions where we don't have to worry about those pesky younger skaters, and so on. Yes, I am making a broad statement - I am generalizing to some degree. However, I have been careful never to say "all adult skaters", but rather, "many that I've seen at local rinks and online"... And, I am making the generalization insofar as I am simply because I am addressing this specific issue right now - it's not a usual part of my postings...

[BatikatII]

Most things are done better by those who learned young including languages, playing instruments etc.

Here is something I completely disagree with. I teach languages, and I know from my personal experience that adults learn faster than kids. Actually the best age for learning foreign languages is late teens, or even twenties. I worked with little kids - five-and-six-year-olds, and boy, was it difficult! Children do pick up certain things fast, but their long-term memory isn't particularly strong, so they forget what they have learned easily.



I used to teach English as a foreign language (and much preferred teaching adults - especially some lovely Japanese ladies I had) as they were so much more fun and you could have an 'adult' (not x-rated!:lol: ) conversation with them. And comparing that to 5 year olds is not quite the same as the skating analogy. (I'm talking about those who learned young, not those who are still very young). But in 5 years time when those 5 year olds are 10, they will not only likely be better at the language than the adults who started at the same time but they will likely have no trace of their original language in their accent.

This is what the adult skating thing is like. An accent. If you listen to anyone who has learnt a language as an adult they almost always have a discernible accent from their own language. Those who learnt young can be totally fluent and have no accent when they speak.

This shows in the many Dutch people I met abroad. They nearly all spoke English but those who had learnt very young or had one English parent - then you would never know they were Dutch. Those who had learnt when older had a Dutch accent to their English and it is this that I mean. No doubt the adult Dutch learners could cope with more difficult English words than a 5 year old for example but the 5 year old would speak it like a native and the older person would always sound like a foreigner.

My own kids moved to a school where they were taught entirely in Welsh for a number of years. Son was 6 and daughter was 4. Already there was a difference. Daughter picked it up naturally while son (who is actually the more gifted linguist) had to go to extra lessons. Both of them sounded more like a native Welsh speaker than I did, despite the fact I learnt to hold an adult conversation in Welsh using words they did not understand.

This is where the difference is and I feel it is the same with adult skating. Your skating will always have that adult accent! The older you are when you start the harder it is to overcome that accent and appear as if skating is as natural to you as it looks to most kids that continure skating and that is regardless of your ability to actually perform the skating moves.

Of course I am sure people can point out exceptions as there are to any rule but in general I would think that is the case.

[BatikatII]

Oh, I wasn't talking about the judging/competition systems - I don't really have a problem with those - more what bothers me are the age-limited freestyle sessions and general sorts of attitudes that a lot of adult skaters seem to have.



* The only people who have ever gotten upset with me over something that they thought COULD have happened but never did have been adults.

* The only people I've seen wanting a session specific to their age group have been adults (no youth-only sessions that I've seen anyways).

* The only people that I see complaining that they don't get enough consideration (i.e. more adult-specific content in Skating magazine) are adults...



Casey - I think you are being a bit disingenuous here aren't you? :D Not dissing you mate - just think it should be obvious that they don't need youth only sessions, as basically almost all the sessions are aimed at the youths!:lol:

And almost all the skating magazine is aimed at or reporting on young skaters so they dont' need to ask for something they already get!!!

Adult skaters used to get no consideration at all, so it is thanks to those who did complain about being ignored that many countries do now provide for the needs of adult skaters and not simply exclude them altogether and for that we should all (adults anyway!) be grateful!:bow:

[Sonic]

I think it’s only fair that adults should have separate competitions and training camps.

That’s not to say, though, that adult skaters cannot achieve a high standard.

Personally I think it’s a good thing that here in the UK there’s no distinction between adult and child skaters in testing. Adults have to pass the same test as kids and I totally agree with that; I mean, you’re either a level 5 skater or you’re not surely? I don’t like the idea of skating being sort of ‘dumbed down’ for adults.

Batikat II makes very some good points – I particularly like the analogy about the ‘accent’. I skated for two years as a child with an eighteen-year break, and have recently been told by a few people that I look very ‘comfortable’ on the ice. Lucky, I guess my child skating ‘accent’ helps compensate for my extreme lack of patience, coordination, athletic ability and natural talent lol!

Bottom line – for most adults, skating is a hobby, and one which we can take as seriously or as lightly as we wish. That’s the great thing about it.

S xxx

[jskater49]

What has yours been? I'm not saying that kids don't do the same thing in reverse, they likely do too, but as of yet, I have only seen one youth skater online post anything negative about adult skaters, while I have seen quite a few adult skaters posting negative bits about younger skaters.

..

What has my experience with adults been? It's a lot wider and longer than reading this particular board and making generalizations about adults. :roll:

Let's see, my experience with adults is ....that some people tend to be negative and complainers...some are more positive....most people exhibit both good and bad traits and some people save their complaints for um, let's see ... A DISCUSSION BOARD as a place to vent and it SAYS NOTHING ABOUT them personally and their outlook, much less ALL ADULTS.

Geesh.

j

[Sessy]

Here in the Netherlands, we don't have anything for adults, except 1 or 2 competitions a year, which are artistic skate... :x

After you're 32, you're out of the nationals track, after you're 36 you're out of all official tracks.


The result? Adults don't skate. Those who do and approach the age of 36 are heard saying things like, if I can't compete, why would I even bother training so hard anymore?

Where as some of them are doing doubles at age 32 after skating just 4 years and never skating in their lives before.

[Laura H]

Well, our rink's fairly new, so none of us are really THAT great . . . and certainly plenty of room on the freestyle ice . . . I have noticed there are both tentative and aggressive (not really the right word but you know what I mean) children AND adult skaters . . . my twin sons and I all started learning at the same time, they were 6 and I was 37 . . . we have all progressed at our own rates. One son went the figure skating route and is working on his lutz and loop right now, the other went the hockey route - he can skate OK but certainly not as well as his brother and I . . . well, I am somewhere in between. I do wish I had been able to learn as a kid but hey, I live in the south and we didn't have any rinks, so that's just the way the cookie crumbles!!

My pet peeve as an "adult skater" is . . . seems like everytime *I* go down, I am apt to get an immediate and concerned "are you OK??" from the instructor . . . yet my DS is continuously hitting this ice and it's just expected he'll jump right back up and try again ;) . . . now if I fell over backwards and hit my head . . .yeah, ask me if I'm OK . . . but if I just fell out of a sit spin and am sitting there laughing . . . yeah, don't waste your breath, I'm OK!! Once you get to the jump and spin level, no matter whether you're an adult or a kid, you're going to fall once in a while or you're being way too tentative!

[jskater49]

My pet peeve as an "adult skater" is . . . seems like everytime *I* go down, I am apt to get an immediate and concerned "are you OK??" from the instructor . . . yet my DS is continuously hitting this ice and it's just expected he'll jump right back up and try again ;) . . . now if I fell over backwards and hit my head . . .yeah, ask me if I'm OK . . . but if I just fell out of a sit spin and am sitting there laughing . . . yeah, don't waste your breath, I'm OK!! Once you get to the jump and spin level, no matter whether you're an adult or a kid, you're going to fall once in a while or you're being way too tentative!


I have noticed that I get a lot of concern when I go down - not just the coach - everyone tends to come over but to be fair, when I go down, I am not going to just jump right back up like a kid. It just looks scaryier when an older person goes down, and quite honestly, we are more likely to injure ourselves when we go down than a kid is.

Of course I'm almost 50. That's the troulble with talking "adult skating" - I think when you start hitting 40 and above, it's a different ball game.

j

[sk8er1964]

I have noticed that I get a lot of concern when I go down - not just the coach - everyone tends to come over but to be fair, when I go down, I am not going to just jump right back up like a kid. It just looks scaryier when an older person goes down, and quite honestly, we are more likely to injure ourselves when we go down than a kid is.

Of course I'm almost 50. That's the troulble with talking "adult skating" - I think when you start hitting 40 and above, it's a different ball game.

j

I think it's kind of cute when they ask that. :) After five or ten falls, though, they don't even glance my way anymore! :lol:

[Laura H]

It just looks scaryier when an older person goes down, and quite honestly, we are more likely to injure ourselves when we go down than a kid is.

Oh definitely . . .and I'm wasn't meaning those really bad (& unplanned!!) "crash & burn" falls . . . more like, oops, I'd better sit down now before I hurt myself!!! 8O

[Rusty Blades]

I don't fall nearly often enough but I have two types of fall. The first is with a great flurry of flailing arms and feet, usually a bounce or a slide accompanied by peals of laughter. Coaches wander by to see what smart-a@@ remark I have this time. The other type is silent, then the coaches rush over because they know something isn't good. So far (14 months) I have only cracked a rib, sprained an ankle, and damaged a shoulder. Not to fear - will start jumps one day soon and add to the list 8O

[blue111moon]

It's probably just the English teacher in me coming out, but every time I see the word "Adult" in quotation marks in posts about Adult Skating, I think "Adult" as in the euphemism for "XXX-Rated" or pornographic, movies, websites or bookstores. I'm an Adult skater, not an "Adult" skater. Believe me, there's nothing obscene about what I do on the ice. :)

[jskater49]

Oh definitely . . .and I'm wasn't meaning those really bad (& unplanned!!) "crash & burn" falls . . . more like, oops, I'd better sit down now before I hurt myself!!! 8O

Well I don't have any cute falls. When I go down, I go down hard. But I don't know if that is an age thing - my daughter takes hard falls - she scares people when she goes down - it's even kind of a joke at both the clubs she's skating at about how hard she falls - she, however can get up and take it.

The fact that I don't have easy falls is probably why I don't like to take risks.

j

[southernsk8er]

well, since i got accused of "generalizing" i guess i should say i didn't mean to insinuate ALL skating moms dislike ALL adult skaters. i'm genuinely glad that some of you find support from the skating parents. it's great that you get to skate at 3 different rinks, and no one gives you a hard time. that has not been my experience (at our tiny rink), or the experience of some other adult skaters i've talked to. that's all i was saying.

also, i don't know about anywhere else, but the adult session here is not a freestyle - it's twice a week from 10:30-11:00, during school hours, well after the many morning freestyles available, and before the public session starts. it gets canceled during the summer and for all school holidays. i fail to see the harm in that.

i'm proud of learning something completely new, and i'm proud of all of us adult skaters who work so hard. i'm amazed at all of you who are doing doubles, which i've just started, and fancy high-level spins, which i would like to do someday. i hope to skate for a long time, and good luck to you all.

[Sessy]

I actually get less concern about how hard I fall, because I'm not bursting out in tears like some of the kids do.

[Isk8NYC]

It's probably just the English teacher in me coming out, but every time I see the word "Adult" in quotation marks in posts about Adult Skating, I think "Adult" as in the euphemism for "XXX-Rated" or pornographic, movies, websites or bookstores. I'm an Adult skater, not an "Adult" skater. Believe me, there's nothing obscene about what I do on the ice. :):lol: :lol: :lol: Touche'! I tend to overuse quotation marks myself, but my DH had an employee once who positively abused them! He once left a note that read:
"Can't Clean Classroom"
"Dust Too Heavey"
"Must hire "Cleaning Serivce""
(Spelling and punctuation are his, not mine)

As a training specialist, former competitive adult skater, a current recreational adult skater, and a coach of both child and adult skaters, I say pffffth! to the theory that everyone's the same.

Different people learn in different ways - if you tell me a story, I'll remember most of it for a long time. Give me a statistic and it's gone by lunchtime. Same thing with skating - I now remember to LOOK while doing power back crossover patterns because my coach told me a story about a kid who slammed into someone due to NOT looking. There is a huge difference between learning as an adult and learning as a child. I see it in my students - while some kids are fearful, they've got nothing on the adults. There are very few reckless adults - clueless and in their own world, yes - but not reckless.

Adult freestyles serve an even more important purpose: socialization. It's nice to skate with people your own age and make friends (almost) your own height. While kids are fun to talk to and skate with, I work harder when I'm with adult who watch where they're going and show courtesy. Many young skaters are courteous (especially the ones on this Board), but I've rarely come across adult skaters who were.

[Kristin]

Good discussion, Casey! As an adult skater myself, I will add my 0.02 here:

I respectfully disagree that adults & kid skaters are the same for a coupla reasons:

1.) Kids skaters don't have to deal with giving birth to anything. I don't think we need to discuss the toll that takes on a woman's body. :)

2.) Adults are generally heavier than kids. Falls can be more devastating when working on higher-level elements when you have more momentum hitting the ice. Getting higher in the air for a double jump is harder when you have 50-100 more lbs. to get up in the air. As a teen, my dad put me in charge of heaving 50 lb bags of bird seed around the yard so I saw firsthand what 50 lbs felt like. eek. Not my fav. teen chore, that's for sure! :)

3.) Weight loss is more difficult as an adult (vs. the kids who are still growing).

But you are right about the fact that we do share some similarities too:

1.) Kids have school & homework, adults have work. No issue there!

2.) General costs of skating are expensive, no matter what level!

Do I think adult-only FS sessions are needed? I think that needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. While I have been lucky with my FS sessions (I have skated with the kids for over 7 yrs with no problems!), I know not every club is as accepting of adult skaters. I tend to just go with the flow....just let me work with my coach & skate my sessions, and I don't complain about anything! :)

Cheers!

[Casey]

It's probably just the English teacher in me coming out, but every time I see the word "Adult" in quotation marks in posts about Adult Skating, I think "Adult" as in the euphemism for "XXX-Rated" or pornographic, movies, websites or bookstores. I'm an Adult skater, not an "Adult" skater. Believe me, there's nothing obscene about what I do on the ice. :)
Yeah, I think this is kinda what I'm trying to get at. I don't really like having adult-specific things, because it seems like "whoa nelly, you're one of them there "adults", eh? We better get you off to the adult reservation!"

Yeah we're a bit different average-wise but I guess the point I'm getting at is that it's not enough to justify having one page with an article about "regular" skaters, and another with a pretty equivalent article about adult skaters. Instead there should be one article, and if it does address things that are age-specific, it should do it in passing within the single article without focusing on it, in my opinion.

[Casey]

1.) Kids skaters don't have to deal with giving birth to anything. I don't think we need to discuss the toll that takes on a woman's body. :)
Heh, well that's true. :)

2.) Adults are generally heavier than kids. Falls can be more devastating when working on higher-level elements when you have more momentum hitting the ice. Getting higher in the air for a double jump is harder when you have 50-100 more lbs. to get up in the air.
Okay, gotta argue that one. We also have a lot stronger muscles... I don't see many kids, even the really good ones, getting all that much height in their jumps. I do see a lot of doubles and even triples done with very little height and a whole lot of snap. It's the older, senior-level skaters that really go sailing. I can get great height in jumps, but I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to figure out how to get the body position just right fast enough to pull off a double.

Do I think adult-only FS sessions are needed? I think that needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. While I have been lucky with my FS sessions (I have skated with the kids for over 7 yrs with no problems!), I know not every club is as accepting of adult skaters. I tend to just go with the flow....just let me work with my coach & skate my sessions, and I don't complain about anything!
Yep...if I only skated the available adult sessions, I wouldn't be skating much at all. Unfortunately, having them available changes the general attitude of everyone who regularly goes to the rink to more of a "you have your sessions, this one is ours" mindset in the non-adults, which I feel is unhealthy.

[icedancer2]

Yep...if I only skated the available adult sessions, I wouldn't be skating much at all. Unfortunately, having them available changes the general attitude of everyone who regularly goes to the rink to more of a "you have your sessions, this one is ours" mindset in the non-adults, which I feel is unhealthy.

Casey, maybe this is something that's peculiar to your area?

What did you end up doing re: skating vs. work vs. place to live? Where are you skating now?

I agree with you about the articles - I don't rally see why the Adult skater should get a focus in US Figure Skating any more than the "average skater" should have an article written about them - it would be nice I guess to see more articles about the "average-skater in general" than there are...

Just some mindless ramblings here...8-)

[Casey]

Not dissing you mate - just think it should be obvious that they don't need youth only sessions, as basically almost all the sessions are aimed at the youths!:lol:
Maybe it's different at rinks in other regions/countries, but every standard freestyle session I've ever skated at across perhaps 10 rinks, has never felt "aimed at youths". Do you have a specific reason for that belief, or is it just a perceptive? Yes, in freestyle sessions, the majority is usually youths, but I'm not sure why that's a problem, or why it would make adults feel excluded.

And almost all the skating magazine is aimed at or reporting on young skaters so they don't need to ask for something they already get!!!
Yeah, well I think that's because it targets the competitive folks (and by that I don't just mean "those who want to compete", but "those who desire to be the best"). While ANs are a valid and great competition to have, they are a lower-level than and not nearly as sought-after as regular Nationals so they don't get the same attention. While I like Skating magazine having an article talking about ANs when they happen, I don't think they should focus any less on the more popular stuff, nor have adult-specific content because it just perpetuates the notion that we should be treated differently, which I think will just increase youth skaters disrespect for adult skaters.

Adult skaters used to get no consideration at all, so it is thanks to those who did complain about being ignored that many countries do now provide for the needs of adult skaters and not simply exclude them altogether and for that we should all (adults anyway!) be grateful!:bow:
I guess I don't see the need for adult-specific events at all, as long as we're welcomed to standard ones... I can understand that maybe we weren't being welcomed, and in that case, the complaints were well-justified, but they've been answered wrongly - rather than working to eliminate age discrimination, it's been answered with segregation.

[Casey]

Casey, maybe this is something that's peculiar to your area?
Nah, my area seems pretty good compared to the other stuff I hear. I've never felt unwelcome on any session (hence why I have to wonder if it's just a matter of false perception). The only things I have seen that are negative aren't specific to the area, like overprotective parents and adult skaters berating me for "almost" killing them... :P

What did you end up doing re: skating vs. work vs. place to live? Where are you skating now?
I'm still in Seattle. It's a great place to skate. :) I'm not complaining about my area at all.

I agree with you about the articles - I don't rally see why the Adult skater should get a focus in US Figure Skating any more than the "average skater" should have an article written about them - it would be nice I guess to see more articles about the "average-skater in general" than there are...
Yeah! Exactly. I think most folks have wrongly associated kids with high-level, and adults with average. But you can have average kids and high-level adults, and the articles should suit the entire range without focus on age in my opinion.

[Laura H]

Yeah, I think this is kinda what I'm trying to get at. I don't really like having adult-specific things, because it seems like "whoa nelly, you're one of them there "adults", eh? We better get you off to the adult reservation!"

Yeah we're a bit different average-wise but I guess the point I'm getting at is that it's not enough to justify having one page with an article about "regular" skaters, and another with a pretty equivalent article about adult skaters. Instead there should be one article, and if it does address things that are age-specific, it should do it in passing within the single article without focusing on it, in my opinion.

I understood your point . . . like an Adult skater is a totally different breed . . .

And my other take on the quotations was yeah, right . .. "adult" aka "allgrownup" skaters . . . I still don't feel like an "allgrownup" adult, although I'm pushing 40 . . . still seems funny to me that *I* am the one signing permission slips and writing notes to my kids' teachers . . .

[BatikatII]

Maybe it's different at rinks in other regions/countries, but every standard freestyle session I've ever skated at across perhaps 10 rinks, has never felt "aimed at youths". Do you have a specific reason for that belief, or is it just a perceptive? Yes, in freestyle sessions, the majority is usually youths, but I'm not sure why that's a problem, or why it would make adults feel excluded.


Yeah, well I think that's because it targets the competitive folks (and by that I don't just mean "those who want to compete", but "those who desire to be the best"). While ANs are a valid and great competition to have, they are a lower-level than and not nearly as sought-after as regular Nationals so they don't get the same attention. While I like Skating magazine having an article talking about ANs when they happen, I don't think they should focus any less on the more popular stuff, nor have adult-specific content because it just perpetuates the notion that we should be treated differently, which I think will just increase youth skaters disrespect for adult skaters.


I guess I don't see the need for adult-specific events at all, as long as we're welcomed to standard ones... I can understand that maybe we weren't being welcomed, and in that case, the complaints were well-justified, but they've been answered wrongly - rather than working to eliminate age discrimination, it's been answered with segregation.


Oh Casey you really are naive aren't you? :D

When I say aimed at youths I mean, that since the majority of skaters are youngsters and almost all rinks are geared up towards competitive youngsters, (even those with mostly recreational youngsters who don't compete much) then those (youngsters) are the ones that are expected at any freestyle session. Now if it doesn't specifically have an age limit then of course adults could and should join but the 'youths' don't need to ask for one since they would use and be expected to use it anyway.

Segregation by age is endemic in the sport, indeed in many sports. Look at the kid's 'opens' - you often have the lower levels divided by age (eg over 10 and under 10) and that is perfectly fine, given enough participants, since a 5 year old is going to skate differently - even if nominally the same level- to a 12 year old. Similarly a 35 year old is going to skate differently to a 10 year old so I see no reason why there should not be age groups for adults too.

Indeed at Adult championships there are often splits by age, though the age ranges tend to be wider than in the kids comps e.g up to 35, 35 to 50 and 50 and over. There are many variations and you can argue til the cows come home where the splits should be or whether there should be splits at all.

In the UK adult dance champ this year I believe they have done away with age splits altogether which means that I, as an adult learner in her 40's may end up competing against someone who learnt in their teens and is only 25, or even worse, a former freestyler who has just taken up dance so is still at a low level in testing. I have done this (competing against a level 8 free style person at a low level dance comp) and it is disheartening as really there is no way you can compete. At least if you have the option of an adult comp with age splits you know you have some chance of being competitive and that is much more motivating.

I totally agree that adults, if they believe they are competitive, should be able to compete in the kids championships. A few years ago a 36 year old adult learner (who started I think in her 20's) did just that in the UK coming 11th of 12 in the senior championships (solo dance). I think it is no longer possible to do this.

The other thing you seem to forget is that for the majority of adults, having started late they are never going to get to a very high level and yet through adult national championships they get the opportunity to compete on a national level with others who have similar constraints since the adult championships start from the lowest levels all the way to masters. As mentioned above, only 1 adult learner in the UK reached a sufficient standard to compete in the national dance championships with the 'elite'. In free skating I doubt there was anybody (indeed there are age limits on the lower levels of the championships that many kids cannot reach).

Adult competition also serves to keep a lot of kids in the sport as they get older. Those who cannot reach the standards for the national championships used to have nowhere to go after 18. We have quite a few kids of that age in our club who can't wait to be able to compete in the adult championships as it gives them an opportunity to continue to compete in the sport they love with other like minded individuals. And no they don't want to keep on competing with the competitive 10 year olds either, complete with (horrible generalisation coming up!) #####y skate moms and competitive stress.

(edited to add - oops I didn't realise this board was so prudish...what else am I supposed to call the 'b*t**y skate mums' who do exist - though thankfully relatively few in number where I am. Does it mean something worse things in America than in UK?)

Would I want to compete at level 1 with 5 year olds, 10 year olds or even young teens? No not really. Would I like to compete against other adults at my level with whom you can have a decent conversation and be friendly as well as competitive - yes definitely. And you can substitute any sport you like for skating and the answer would be the same.

I did actually beat a teenager in a competition once (a club improvisation comp) and I felt so bad for her after, and that is another reason to keep seperate - it is very demotivating for a kid to be beaten by an adult - I think she gave up skating. Don't want that on my conscience really!

More coverage of grass roots skaters at all levels and all ages would be nice but don't let's throw the baby out with the bathwater here!

Lastly - sorry about the length of this!- I do know of skate mothers who believe adults should not be taking up the same ice as their precious darlings. One even told me that she instructed her daughter never to give way to adults even if they had their music on and this is at what is actually a pretty adult-friendly rink (we run the biggest adult open in the UK).

[Mercedeslove]

I have skated MANY rinks in the past year and I will say that there most certainly "unfriendly" rinks when the parent of little tots seem to feel that an adult on the ice is a "waste of time and space".



I only had parents say this to me a few times. I wanted to quit, but thought if I did they would win.

Most come up to me and are really nice and just as supportive to me as they are to their kids.


i just never understood what makes an adult of any age less an of important skater then a kid.

Heck I know a lady she is 76 and skates and dude I love rooting for her. its so awesome.

[jazzpants]

I only had parents say this to me a few times. I wanted to quit, but thought if I did they would win.I've had a skating mom who asked me if I was married and when I said yes, she said "Why don't you just go and have a child and have your daughter skate for you instead?" My nice but "I'm insulted" answer is "What? And miss out on all the fun??? I don't think so!!!" :evil:

And of course, I have a skating niece that I've known since skating school and I met her when she was 10-11. She's now 18 and one of the coaches at my rink. She likes calling me "Auntie" b/c I've known her over the years and I'm always doing jumps and spins along with her and her friends when she's skating. I'm quite proud to be called "Auntie" by her and got a chance to watch her grow up to become the lovely young lady she is now. 8-) :bow:

[Kristin]

Batikat,

I take it that you skate in the UK, and I honestly can't say I know what that's like, but I can share with you about the "age" stuff regarding my rink. I've passed my adult Silver FS & it is my level that determines the ice I am allowed to be on. Nothing about age segregation and most of the Detroit (Michigan) area rinks do the same. It's based on levels only (lower levels like basic thru prelim or pre-juv have their own ice vs. Juvenile thru Senior). If you are "good enough" to pass the higher level tests, you are on that higher level ice. It is more of a detriment to have a 12 yr old working on triples on the same ice with a 12 yr old who is working on edges since the lower level skater will literally "get in the way" and it can be very dangerous for both skaters.

Don't know if that helps, but it's just the way they do it around here. :)

[Hannahclear]

I have skated MANY rinks in the past year and I will say that there most certainly "unfriendly" rinks when the parent of little tots seem to feel that an adult on the ice is a "waste of time and space".

I've never encountered this attitude, at least not to my face. Can't say I really care though. My money is just as green as theirs and I paid for my ice just like they did.

[BatikatII]

Batikat,

I take it that you skate in the UK, and I honestly can't say I know what that's like, but I can share with you about the "age" stuff regarding my rink. I've passed my adult Silver FS & it is my level that determines the ice I am allowed to be on. Nothing about age segregation and most of the Detroit (Michigan) area rinks do the same. It's based on levels only (lower levels like basic thru prelim or pre-juv have their own ice vs. Juvenile thru Senior). If you are "good enough" to pass the higher level tests, you are on that higher level ice. It is more of a detriment to have a 12 yr old working on triples on the same ice with a 12 yr old who is working on edges since the lower level skater will literally "get in the way" and it can be very dangerous for both skaters.

Don't know if that helps, but it's just the way they do it around here. :)

Hi Kristin
Thanks for the info although the age segregation I was referring to was not for patches but for open competitions where there are often splits by age within the levels at comps and often an upper age limit which excludes most adults (depending on your definition - over 18years but high level skaters tend to be referred to as 'elites' here. Not sure what the maximum age for open comps is but Championship level comps do have maximum age limits at each level.)

At our rink we dont have any segregation whatsoever on most patches (skate sessions) which can be a problem with clueless beginner 6 year olds and clueless beginner adults alike, mingling with 'elites' doing doubles and triples etc. There is a level limit to some of the patches but not many and that seemed to be basically introduced to keep the learn to skate kids/adults out of the way of our top skater (not at our rink now). When you add in the couples dancers and solo dancers it can be a real madhouse!

Our club patches (different to rink patches) do have a bit of level segregation but not much. On our main club session it was the head coach who first introduced a seperate club group lesson for the adults but the club has now agreed that those adults who wish to may skate with their appropriate level group lesson rather than the adult group.

Our rink is hosting a skate camp in the summer and the free coach has agreed that adults may take part but the dance coach has said she doesn't want adults :x

Almost every rink seems to arrange things their own way so it's hard to generalise.

There seem to be a lot more rinks in the US that have level segregated patches but maybe it depends how much ice time they have available.

[cecealias]

Many rinks that serious about figure skating have sessions split up by test level/ability. Even if you have skaters that haven't tested up to their level, sometimes they will put them on appropriate sessions so that it is safer for all skaters on the ice.

It can definitely be dangerous when you have a mix of skaters from toddler to high level skaters working on triples, and really bad accidents can happen.

[cecealias]

This thread started with the discussion of why it is difficult for adults to get to advanced levels, and Two words came to mind today , namely:

"Violent" and "Aggressive".

Yeah, I know - for such a graceful looking sport, that's precisely the oomph needed to get to advanced jumps/spins/moves to work in figure skating. They just don't work from skating gently into the element or by sliding off the top of the ice surface.

There are days when it's pretty FREAKING scary as SH*T to learn how to do advanced spins and jumps. I think the older we get the harder to take the plunge. :giveup:

[liz_on_ice]

Okay, gotta argue that one. We also have a lot stronger muscles... I don't see many kids, even the really good ones, getting all that much height in their jumps. I do see a lot of doubles and even triples done with very little height and a whole lot of snap. It's the older, senior-level skaters that really go sailing. I can get great height in jumps, but I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to figure out how to get the body position just right fast enough to pull off a double.


My theory (worth what you'd expect from a skater who can barely land a single sal on a good day with a following wind) is it's more than just more weight to vault into the air. It's a combination of height and mass that just makes physical laws apply more strongly. Kids can do things much more sloppily, inertia doesn't notice them as much and they haven't gotten the gravity memo yet.

-Liz

[Sk8pdx]

I have heard many adults say "I'm too old to learn to skate" My question is: Where did this misconception or myth arise from? (and I think this is where this whole debate is rooted in "Adult skating") I tend to believe that our own figure skating governing body has created this over time. (and news media too) Many adults who don't skate think that if they are over 13 that it is too late. There have been threads started here with the question "How old is too old to learn to skate?"

Another thing, in my opinion is that by creating an adult track aside from a standard track basically our own US figure skating body has created this debate (I am not sure about Canada and UK) USFSA has esentially said "Well, yes, adults can learn to skate, but we'll make it easier because you have no chance in Hades of ever competing at a national level anyway. (being a little sarcastic here,:P but at least it is a good thing that one can cross over once you get to the novice level...:?? ).

On the other spectrum, yes we can choose which track we would like to test/compete in. I have heard of skaters testing in both the standard US and Adult tracks.

For me, skating is my own sport. I will make it what I want it to be. I own it. (sure as heck pay enough for it too!) It is mine. I tell people I am a figure skater, and just end it there. :)
well, that's my ramble for now.;)
~sk8pdx

[BatikatII]

Another thing, in my opinion is that by creating an adult track aside from a standard track basically our own US figure skating body has created this debate (I am not sure about Canada and UK) USFSA has esentially said "Well, yes, adults can learn to skate, but we'll make it easier because you have no chance in Hades of ever competing at a national level anyway. (being a little sarcastic here,:P but at least it is a good thing that one can cross over once you get to the novice level...:?? ).

~sk8pdx

At least that's one less thing we have to worry about in the UK since we only have standard track which everyone does unless you are a very competitive skater at a high level at an early age when there is a competitive option. NISA UK seem to have recognised that lots of kids want to compete and skate but arent' going to make it to qualify for a national championships and have even instituted a national championship for them (sort of like a non-qualifying championship). I think this is great and perhaps another reason I don't have a problem with an Adult Championship seperate from the 'elite' championship since there is also a 'kids' championship seperate from the elite
'I'm going to the Olympics..' type kids. Makes sense and allows everyone to compete with their peers whether by age or level.

Would probably be more difficult to do in the US due to sheer weight of numbers.

I also don't think there should be an adult track with lower standards and would be against it in the UK - as someone said above - you've either reached the level or you haven't and if you haven't you compete at a lower level. This is from someone who swore as an adult she'd never learn to jump and have both feet off the ice at the same time but ended up doing it (due to test changes which negated my low level free test) and loving it. Never thought I'd be able to get level 1 even but am contemplating taking level 2 soon, (salchow, toe-loop all with flow, backspin (my nemesis) sitspin maybe loop can't remember etc) .Amazing what a bit of motivation can do.

Having said that I do think some judges in the UK are more lenient with adults but especially at the lower levels they can be lenient with kids too. In fact the variation in judging standards in tests is something of a pet peeve with me at the moment and it applies to kids as much if not more than adults.

[Sessy]

This thread started with the discussion of why it is difficult for adults to get to advanced levels, and Two words came to mind today , namely:

"Violent" and "Aggressive".


I'm both, generally speaking. Not just in skating. Once I took a swing at someone with a solid metal bar with the intent to mush their brains (they had it coming), I beat a full-grown man off me who'd tried to rape/murder/whatever me when I was 14 and again when I was 16 and I had detention nearly every day for physically fighting with boys at school. Not to mention my girl friends were all either into kickboxing, freefighting, or doing judo on nationals level. I've also shot just about every type of firearm you can think of, short of uzi's and ak-47's.

It's the reason I like skating and not just any sport I could be doing. I like the adrenaline rush from the falls and the landings.

[Sessy]

In the Netherlands we have a system a bit like that in the UK, it seems. We have the KNSB cup, which is open for people with far lower tests than the nationals are. However, it only allows people of no older than 36 years to compete.

[Team Arthritis]

This thread started with the discussion of why it is difficult for adults to get to advanced levels, and Two words came to mind today , namely:

"Violent" and "Aggressive".

Yeah, I know - for such a graceful looking sport, that's precisely the oomph needed to get to advanced jumps/spins/moves to work in figure skating. They just don't work from skating gently into the element or by sliding off the top of the ice surface.

There are days when it's pretty FREAKING scary as SH*T to learn how to do advanced spins and jumps. I think the older we get the harder to take the plunge. :giveup:

Very insightful Cecealias. Every time I see Sasha Cohen or one of the Hughes sisters skate, this comes to my mind.
Lyle

[Mrs Redboots]

Believe me, there's nothing obscene about what I do on the ice. :)

<teasing>B-b-but I've seen you skate..... :?:</teasing> :twisted:

I don't rally see why the Adult skater should get a focus in US Figure Skating
I suppose one good reason is that Adult/Masters skating is now a separate ISU discipline? Therefore, one would expect articles that relate specifically to Adult/Masters' skating, just as one expects articles relating specifically to free skating, or ice dance, or short-track....

[Kristin]

My theory (worth what you'd expect from a skater who can barely land a single sal on a good day with a following wind) is it's more than just more weight to vault into the air. It's a combination of height and mass that just makes physical laws apply more strongly. Kids can do things much more sloppily, inertia doesn't notice them as much and they haven't gotten the gravity memo yet.

-Liz

Agreed about the kids tending to be sloppy at times, Liz.

Casey, you can gain a good 6 inches on a jump with proper technique. Not more muscle required, just better draw/arm follow-thru/timing, etc. I never woulda believed it until I saw it in my own skating this year....my coach worked really hard on *proper* technique for all my singles thru lutz and it was the first time I really felt "hang time" on a lutz with very little effort. It was amazing how effortless/easy a *properly* excecuted jump actually felt like!!!! Brains over brawn!!! I am a believer. :)

[Rusty Blades]

<snip> Brains over brawn!!!

Oh sh!#, then I am in TROUBLE! 8O

[tidesong]

It's the reason I like skating and not just any sport I could be doing. I like the adrenaline rush from the falls and the landings.

That's it for me too... even more exciting are landings that I nearly miss but somehow hang on... (I must say that cycling on an extreme curve and lean can bring a bit of that excitement too, but unforunately I find that highly limited....)

I also believe in proper technique. I believe that in not as good technique, your body is working against itself, so just take that and imagine it working together, you can probably double the resultant force you were getting previously.

Its hard for me to talk about adult skating since I started in my late teens and in Singapore there aren't really any figure skating sessions at all... there is pretty much just one huge public session every day of the week and everyone has to fight with the public and the other skaters to skate in it.

As for the falling issue, I sometimes have people come over to check if I'm alright especially if I end up on my back. But the most painful ones actually don't look as painful... And I've generally learnt how to take the falls now, and maybe even more importantly learnt what causes a certain kind of fall and what I'm going to do from falling the exact same way the next time.

I find it more enjoyable skating with people my age because we tend to relate better and can not only chat but give each other tips as well. So I would appreciate age-based sessions, but since I don't even have any kind of sessions at all, I'll do with anything :P

Sorry... my paragraphs are not completely related to each other, just throwing out my thoughts on some of the topics raised here.

[cathrl]

I'd have to say, if a child is going to give up because they got beaten by an adult on one particular day, they weren't going to get very far anyway. In a subjective sport like this, you really have to go out there with the attitude that what matters is how you skate, and if the judges go with it, they go with it, and if they don't, they don't. I wouldn't want a special adult test track, because what interests me is where I can get to on a standard scale, not a special scale taking account of my age.

Catherine, who is very proud of having beaten the current British junior male solo ice dance champion. Once. And he was I think ten years old at the time, and his partner was six, and they'd been skating together for at least a month :)

[starskate6.0]

Hi Everyone. :)

I did not have the time to read all of the postings here , there are too many.
However I do understand that Adults do have a hard time in some rinks. :cry:

I like to think that we as adults are only limited by a few things.
1. Finding a coach who won't treat us like we are about to break every bone in our bodies and lets our minds determine what is possible.
2. A rink that supports us and values our presents with respect and support.
3. A club that does the same..

I am very lucky to have all 3 at my rink. There is support from the skaters and the coaches where I skate and If I land a new jump or achieve something great they share is my success regardless of how small it may be.. . We have a growing adult presents because of this open attitude towards older skaters.
Today I had the pleasure of meeting an adult skater at our rink for the first time. I went over and welcomed her to our rink , she was thrilled that someone would do so . I told her she was welcomed any time on our ice.

I skate with adults, kids and Olympic hopefuls , and we all get along ,
I extend a welcome to all skaters who need ice and can get to Ice Works in PA. Just say Hello to one of us when you arrive and you will be welcomed..

I would love to see more adults as well so if you send me a note here , we can exchange E-mail and Ill meet you there and introduce you to others.. there is no obligation to join our club or anything like that. Just a place to skate if you can make it and Ill join you there..
If you can't make it for practice I wish you all the best.
" The greatest risk in life iis not taking one "
Ross
:D

[Kristin]

Oh sh!#, then I am in TROUBLE! 8O

Rusty, you are cracking me up over here!!!!!! LOL!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Kristin]

I'd have to say, if a child is going to give up because they got beaten by an adult on one particular day, they weren't going to get very far anyway. In a subjective sport like this, you really have to go out there with the attitude that what matters is how you skate, and if the judges go with it, they go with it, and if they don't, they don't. I wouldn't want a special adult test track, because what interests me is where I can get to on a standard scale, not a special scale taking account of my age.


I hear ya, Cath!

Also, there ARE some things that adults understand better than the kids like proper edges & placement on 3 turns. When I was testing my Adult Silver field moves through USFSA last year, a judge came up to me afterwards to tell me she really liked my 3-turns ("3 turns in the field") because all the turns were at the top of the lobe. She mentioned that she likes judging adult moves in the field tests because adults "get" the idea of putting the 3 turn in the proper spot (vs. turning it early like many of the kids do).

Just because we are *older* does not mean we are *dead*!!! :lol:

Have a wonderful weekend, y'all!!!

[icedancer2]

Also, there ARE some things that adults understand better than the kids like proper edges & placement on 3 turns. When I was testing my Adult Silver field moves through USFSA last year, a judge came up to me afterwards to tell me she really liked my 3-turns ("3 turns in the field") because all the turns were at the top of the lobe. She mentioned that she likes judging adult moves in the field tests because adults "get" the idea of putting the 3 turn in the proper spot (vs. turning it early like many of the kids do).



So true - I think that adults really get the "skating is technique" thingy much better than the kid skaters do, especially now that they aren't teaching figures so much anymore. When I took my Pre-Bronze Moves, the judge wrote, "Wow, real lobes!" on my test sheet because she just doesn't get to see them very often at that level anymore.:D

[crayonskater]

My $0.02:
1) While I think most adult-onset skaters are seroius about what they do, personally, I don't care much if they're featured on the websites and magazines any more than I care if their softball team gets a writeup in the Major League Baseball. I figure the primary purpose of USFSA is to promote the competitive track. Great if they want to feature adults, nifty; not as important to me as finding ice time and a coach. It's *competitive* but not *elite.*

And to that extent, a separate testing and training track makes sense. We're not going to the Olympics or even thinking about it, so being in that stream doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

2) Age does matter. Consider that if you gave most talented little kids the same ice time and coaching that avid talented adult skaters have in a year, you'd have a little kid landing doubles and thinking about triples. It's not just fear or a lack of work ethic that holds back adults. My coach, who mostly coaches competitve younger kids says that the conventional wisdom now is to build the doubles and triples into the growth plate. You don't have a growth plate when you're an adult.

Plus, there's years upon years of muscle memory to move past and most of these skills take a long time to master. The brain just doesn't forge connections in the same way. This isn't to say that they're impossible obstacles, but that a five-year-old doesn't have as much to unlearn as a forty-year-old.

I don't think it's defeatist to acknowledge reality. Adults don't spend their first two years on the ice playing bunny games and drawing on the ice with markers, either. :)

[Sessy]

I don't think it's defeatist to acknowledge reality. Adults don't spend their first two years on the ice playing bunny games and drawing on the ice with markers, either. :)

Crayonskaters? :lol:

[NCSkater02]

I have noticed that I get a lot of concern when I go down - not just the coach - everyone tends to come over but to be fair, when I go down, I am not going to just jump right back up like a kid. It just looks scaryier when an older person goes down, and quite honestly, we are more likely to injure ourselves when we go down than a kid is.

Of course I'm almost 50. That's the troulble with talking "adult skating" - I think when you start hitting 40 and above, it's a different ball game.

j

When the kids fall, they usually jump right back up. I have to do a quick head-to-toe assessment to make sure I haven't injured anything too badly.

The time I fell and broke my ankle, I had one of the kids asking me if I needed ice. Like the sheet I was sitting on wasn't cold enough. :lol:

I started skating at 38 and just turned 44. I've come a long way since then, but the kids that started with me are working on doubles. Some that started much later than me are working on doubles. I'm still working on half- and full-rotation jumps. I may eventually get them.

I wish I'd been able to learn as a kid--it would certainly be easier today. However, I really appreciate what goes into the sport now.

[Rusty Blades]

... I figure the primary purpose of USFSA is to promote the competitive track ...

I guess that depends on who's running the show.

[skaternum]

Age does matter. ... I don't think it's defeatist to acknowledge reality.
I couldn't agree more! I've never understood adults who try to deny the differences. So for those people, enjoy the Standard track and have at it. For those of us not afraid to acknowledge the differences, we'll gladly take our adult track tests and competitions and have at it. To each his own.

[jazzpants]

For those of us not afraid to acknowledge the differences, we'll gladly take our adult track tests and competitions and have at it.At least until we've passed our Gold Moves and FS tests... then if we want to move up from that, we're SCREWED!!! :twisted: :lol:

And for the record, I am proudly doing my adult tests and competitions b/c I have no aspirations of going to the Olympics and just wants to see what I'm capable of doing (and apparently far beyond my wildest dreams!!! 8O ) But I *am* slightly curious to see if with a bit more training I can pass my prelim and pre-Juv moves test.

Cheers,
jazzpants, who STILL practices her Bronze Moves for warm up and plays around with Silver Moves.

[Thin-Ice]

When I was testing my Adult Silver field moves through USFSA last year, a judge came up to me afterwards to tell me she really liked my 3-turns ("3 turns in the field") because all the turns were at the top of the lobe.

She mentioned that she likes judging adult moves in the field tests because adults "get" the idea of putting the 3 turn in the proper spot (vs. turning it early like many of the kids do).

Please send this judge to the Bay Area for my next test. Tell me the judge's approximate weight and where to send the postal label so this judge will be at the boards. I will be happy to schedule my next test around her convenience.:halo: :D :lol:

[Isk8NYC]

I was an open freestyle last week that was more crowded than usual, with young children in the majority. (Usually, it's mostly adult women with one or two little kids.) It was an interesting opportunity to study the "Adult Freestyle" vs. "Open Freestyle" dynamics.

Here's what I noticed:

No one thought to put on listening music, which we usually do when it's mainly adults. For the first 20 mins, it was silence, then one of the adults played her program music and then put on a CD for background music.

The youngest skaters "camped out" on circles and lines. They didn't watch where they going and were hard to SEE because they were short. When they were on lesson, you really had to look out because they were so distracted by the coach that they didn't even know that you almost planted a blade in their butts. LOL

The tweenies were somewhat arrogant. The most interesting group by far, they expected you to move at all times. Didn't matter if someone else's music was on or if you were on lesson.

The adults, who usually chit-chat a bit barely spoke to one another when all the kids were there. The kids didn't speak to anyone but their coach, yet they were all from the same skating club and skated together regularly.

The most interesting thing that happened really denotes the difference between the adult skating I love and the skating I often see. I started working on backspins when one of the tweenies came from the other side of the rink to do backspins. Whatever backspin I did (sit, scratch, upright, etc.), she would then try to "do better." It was a little bit unnerving because she would set up right next to where I was already spinning. I moved to another part of the rink and watched as she copied another adults' sit spins (which are stunning, btw) and then followed one of the kids doing waltz jumps. I guess she didn't have a set list of practice elements and wanted a challenge. She had her lesson later and it wasn't good - I hadn't seen her practice those elements before her lesson. She was too busy copying and one-up'ing others.

I've never seen that copy or one-up approach on an Adult session. ADULT skaters would watch the other then say, "Cool, watch mine and tell me if it's okay." More of a "let's work together" approach, in my experience.

[blue111moon]

I started skating at 38 and just turned 44. I've come a long way since then, but the kids that started with me are working on doubles.

:lol: I started skating at 28 and am now 53. The kids who started skating with me now HAVE kids who are landing doubles - and triples! :D

[Figureskates]

2) Age does matter. Consider that if you gave most talented little kids the same ice time and coaching that avid talented adult skaters have in a year, you'd have a little kid landing doubles and thinking about triples. It's not just fear or a lack of work ethic that holds back adults. My coach, who mostly coaches competitve younger kids says that the conventional wisdom now is to build the doubles and triples into the growth plate. You don't have a growth plate when you're an adult.

Plus, there's years upon years of muscle memory to move past and most of these skills take a long time to master. The brain just doesn't forge connections in the same way. This isn't to say that they're impossible obstacles, but that a five-year-old doesn't have as much to unlearn as a forty-year-old.

I don't think it's defeatist to acknowledge reality. Adults don't spend their first two years on the ice playing bunny games and drawing on the ice with markers, either. :)

Absolutely.

In fact figure skating is one of about 3 activities that is good for adults because it forces the brain to forge new connections. That is why it takes longer for older adults to "catch on".

Also I think adult who do figure skate have a tendency to be more resiliant and bounce back. I broke my little toe in two places two weeks agao when I kicked the frame of the shower stall full force stepping out.

I had it checked out and the first words to my doctor was when can I skate again? My doctor who is athletic as well said that is not the words I would expect to hear from a typical 61 year old (he knows I am a figure skater). He said I could go skating when I could fit my foot into my boot when the swelling goes down. That was three days later...the only thing I can't do at the moment is any toe jumps since I have to go up on my toepick and that still hurts... alot! That should go away in about another month.

[Rusty Blades]

I've never seen that copy or one-up approach on an Adult session. ADULT skaters would watch the other then say, "Cool, watch mine and tell me if it's okay." More of a "let's work together" approach, in my experience.

Forsure! In the one group of adults where I sake there is a Gold level male skater about my age (mid-50's) and I have stopped him a few times and said "How the heck did you do that??!!" He is always very obliging and free with the pointers :mrgreen:

[flo]

I often play the "can you do this?" with the kids. We have a good time.

[southernsk8er]

Also I think adult who do figure skate have a tendency to be more resiliant and bounce back. I broke my little toe in two places two weeks agao when I kicked the frame of the shower stall full force stepping out.

I had it checked out and the first words to my doctor was when can I skate again? My doctor who is athletic as well said that is not the words I would expect to hear from a typical 61 year old (he knows I am a figure skater). He said I could go skating when I could fit my foot into my boot when the swelling goes down. That was three days later...the only thing I can't do at the moment is any toe jumps since I have to go up on my toepick and that still hurts... alot! That should go away in about another month.

LOL! I did the same thing running into a doorway about a year ago. I went back to the rink 2 days later and did everything except toe loop. It hurt for awhile, but it was worth it. One of my coach's fairly serious teen skaters is taking 4-6 weeks off for a broken finger, and I was like WHAT??

Hope your toe heals soon :D

[stardust skies]

LOL! I did the same thing running into a doorway about a year ago. I went back to the rink 2 days later and did everything except toe loop. It hurt for awhile, but it was worth it. One of my coach's fairly serious teen skaters is taking 4-6 weeks off for a broken finger, and I was like WHAT??

Hope your toe heals soon :D

The toe is tucked away in your boot, not much else can happen to it. Falling on a broken finger, even if it's in a cast-like thing, could be really, really bad. She could fracture that entire bone. Arm injuries typically take skaters off the ice much longer than foot injuries, because feet are protected by boots, and you don't usually fall ON your feet...if you did you wouldn't fall. ;) Arms are necessary to break potentially bad falls, protecting the face, and so forth and so on, so taking time for fingers, wrists, etc.. to heal properly makes sense imo.

[southernsk8er]

um, ok. i've also played basketball with a broken finger just taped up and worked out at the gym with a broken arm in a cast. skating with a broken toe is painful. it's squished in there, and your foot is pressured and moves even in a skating boot. plus, since it was my little toe it was pushed against the boot. whatever, i was just trying to relate to what the other person said about how skating makes us tougher, and how we'll skate anyway because we love it.

i've seen plenty of adults on here saying how they love being aggressive and how they love falling, and they don't have to defend themselves, so i don't know why i am. :roll:

[cathrl]

As an adult, though, it's easy to say 'okay, I need a break, I'm going to take a month off and then come back.' I can imagine a teen feeling like that and taking a relatively minor injury as an excuse to do it, because taking a break 'just because' as a competitive athlete could cause people to stop taking you seriously.

[jskater49]

Also I can see a doctor saying to an adult - "stay off the ice with your broken finger" and an adult saying "Hahaha, no way brother" ...a doctor telling a teenager's parents "She's off the ice" is another story.

j

[Rusty Blades]

Also I can see a doctor saying to an adult - "stay off the ice with your broken finger" and an adult saying "Hahaha, no way brother" ...

You mean like when my physiotherapist said I needed to take two months off to let my sprained ankle heal and I asked "And if I don't?" 8O (I went ahead and spent the next 3 months training for the Adult Championships :roll: ) Six months later, I know the answer to my question 'cause my ankle still bothers me from time to time. Have I taken time off? NO!

The only person I listen to (it seems) is my coach, and if she told me to take time off, I would ignore her to!

[stardust skies]

um, ok. i've also played basketball with a broken finger just taped up and worked out at the gym with a broken arm in a cast. skating with a broken toe is painful. it's squished in there, and your foot is pressured and moves even in a skating boot. plus, since it was my little toe it was pushed against the boot. whatever, i was just trying to relate to what the other person said about how skating makes us tougher, and how we'll skate anyway because we love it.

i've seen plenty of adults on here saying how they love being aggressive and how they love falling, and they don't have to defend themselves, so i don't know why i am. :roll:

I wasn't talking about what's most painful, I was talking about what's risky and what isn't. But it's okay, I have no idea why I posted, because I'm getting attitude already from my first post in like 6+ months. I'm back out of here. :roll:

[Sonic]

But it's okay, I have no idea why I posted, because I'm getting attitude already from my first post in like 6+ months. I'm back out of here. :roll:

It's this strange phenomenon called a 'different opinion from your own' - quite prevalent on internet forums I understand... :roll:

S xxx

[Sessy]

See that's the reason I don't even go to doctors. I know I'm gonna ignore whatever they advise anyway, so what's the point?

[blue111moon]

I wasn't talking about what's most painful, I was talking about what's risky and what isn't. But it's okay, I have no idea why I posted, because I'm getting attitude already from my first post in like 6+ months. I'm back out of here. :roll:

Skating itself is risky. As adults, we get to decide how much risk we want to tolerate.

And if that little bit of a response is what you call attitude, sweetie, you must find real life excrutiatingly painful.

[southernsk8er]

See that's the reason I don't even go to doctors. I know I'm gonna ignore whatever they advise anyway, so what's the point?

LOL! You are great, Sessy, I really love reading your posts :D

[Figureskates]

See that's the reason I don't even go to doctors. I know I'm gonna ignore whatever they advise anyway, so what's the point?

I went to the doctor to make sure it was only a broken toe and nothing else. If I had tore ligamnets or other things I would have taken his advice and cool it for awhile. But it was only a broken toe and he said you aren't going to make it any worse by skating so once you can get your foot in the skate...go for it.:bow: :bow:

[Kristin]

Please send this judge to the Bay Area for my next test. Tell me the judge's approximate weight and where to send the postal label so this judge will be at the boards. I will be happy to schedule my next test around her convenience.:halo: :D :lol:

I would gladly tell you the name! It was Lynne Robertson from the Detroit area. She's tough but always gives credit where credit is due. :)

Another one of the judges I had on my Silver FM test was Charles Cope, a Gold-level FS & Dance judge. He also wrote on my test paper "Nice test, Kristin!"

Yes, I like to nit-pick my Field Moves and it really reflected on that test! I worked very hard to make things as correct & powerful as possible & I guess the judges appreciated it.

[Kristin]

I often play the "can you do this?" with the kids. We have a good time.

I love doing this too with the kids at my rink! It's amazing what you can do if you just TRY it.... :)

[flying~camel]

I love doing this too with the kids at my rink! It's amazing what you can do if you just TRY it.... :)

That's how I learned how to do an outside spread eagle! A couple of the kids were trying them, so I gave it a go and was really surprised to find myself moving on an outside edge on both feet! :)

[Isk8NYC]

I often play the "can you do this?" with the kids. We have a good time.
I play "SHOW ME!" as my usual last class for my group students during each 10-wk session. By that point, they've mastered everything that they're going to master during the session, I've recorded the test results/next class levels, and we all want to have some fun. Some of them look forward to it so much they rehearse their "Show Me!" in advance!

I also have them do "weird skating" - strange positions, unusual spins and jumps. Once, a skater scared the *&^% out of me by doing a fwd crossover and jumping off the CROSSED foot in a strange forward picking maneuver. I shudder every time I think of that move - I was sure she would go down face-first.

Just to clarify: the skater I mentioned in my original post wasn't talking to or having fun with anyone. I got the distinct feeling she was trying to "show up" the other skaters.

[NCSkater02]

:lol: I started skating at 28 and am now 53. The kids who started skating with me now HAVE kids who are landing doubles - and triples! :D

I think that may happen to me, too. I have to be the oldest student in LTS for the longest (over five years, minus the time I took off for the broken ankle) I may die in LTS. :roll: As long as I keep learning, it's worth it to me. Plus, since I've been coming for so long, the rink gives me freestyle rather than public punch cards. I come out way ahead financially!