USFSA Governing Council: Adult RFAs [Archive]

skaternum

04-15-2007, 05:19 PM

Has anybody had a chance to look at the Requests for Action for USFSA Governing Council? There are several that have a big impact on adults, and I was curious what your thoughts are.

Go here (http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_details.asp?id=37133) and open the RFAs. Items 301, 302 and 321 are particularly interesting.

301 changes the Adult Bronze WBP to match the test requirement for spins. Seems like the right thing to do. Lots of Bronze skaters got caught in that little mess from last year. This would correct the mistake.

302 adds championship singles events for silver and bronze. I think this is going to be a bit contentious on the floor of GC. Personally, I don't think we should have "championship" events for these levels. I think these levels are just too low to justify calling something a championship. And before anybody tries to crucify me for snobbery, let me state that I'm a silver skater, myself. Also, I think having championship events would just exacerbate sandbagging at these levels.

321 establishes a solo test track for adult and masters skaters. It's not clear from the wording whether this would be mandatory, as it is for the standard track, or whether it's optional. Anybody here know?

So what do you guys think?

jskater49

04-15-2007, 05:26 PM

Has anybody had a chance to look at the Requests for Action for USFSA Governing Council? There are several that have a big impact on adults, and I was curious what your thoughts are.

Go here (http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_details.asp?id=37133) and open the RFAs. Items 301, 302 and 321 are particularly interesting.

321 establishes a solo test track for adult and masters skaters. It's not clear from the wording whether this would be mandatory, as it is for the standard track, or whether it's optional. Anybody here know?

So what do you guys think?

I for one, would appreciate a solo dance track for adult and masters. There are no partners around here, I enjoy dance, I like to test to give me a goal to work for but I took that damn dutch waltz four times before I could pass it solo and I'm a much better skater now than when I passed it with a partner easily years ago. So I'm one that appreciates a little "dumbing down". There's challenging and then there's so impossible that you feel like quitting.

j

Hannahclear

04-15-2007, 05:36 PM

I was kind of hoping to only have to do two spins in my bronze program next year. :lol: I don't like spinning.

As for bronze and silver champ rounds, they would still have the open ones right? I'm pretty neutral. It's not a bad idea IMO, but I don't care either way.

MusicSkateFan

04-15-2007, 05:41 PM

Well when I first heard of the Championship events for Bronze and Silver I was rather skeptical. As a silver skater I thought, where is the incentive to move up to gold if you have championship at silver. Then as I was talking to others , I began to see another point... it will build the draw for the Adult sectional competitions and maybe give the lower levels something else to consider working towards.

If it passes it will be VERY tough to qualify for.....even for the men like me!

I would consider going to sectional for a champioship qual. There is no reason for me(as a Silver man) to go to sectionals unless the competition was held locally.

Yes this does put Financial and time considerations to a test......but why not give it a try and see what happens.....if it does not work you can always go back to the way things are now.

Terri C

04-15-2007, 05:59 PM

301 changes the Adult Bronze WBP to match the test requirement for spins. Seems like the right thing to do. Lots of Bronze skaters got caught in that little mess from last year. This would correct the mistake.

302 adds championship singles events for silver and bronze. I think this is going to be a bit contentious on the floor of GC. Personally, I don't think we should have "championship" events for these levels. I think these levels are just too low to justify calling something a championship. And before anybody tries to crucify me for snobbery, let me state that I'm a silver skater, myself. Also, I think having championship events would just exacerbate sandbagging at these levels.

321 establishes a solo test track for adult and masters skaters. It's not clear from the wording whether this would be mandatory, as it is for the standard track, or whether it's optional. Anybody here know?

So what do you guys think?

Here's my opinion gang, take it or leave it.
For 301, all I could say to that was "THANK GOD!" I felt last year's proposal made no sense whatsoever in the fact that I will have to do three spins in my Bronze test program next month, yet for my competitive program I could only do two- secondary coach would have had a great time changing my choreography on that one.

302- This is how I read it and I know someone out there is going to call me on this but anyway:
The bottom line is that very few Bronze and Silver skaters attend Sectionals unless they either live right where it's going to be held or have $$$ to burn. Therefore, this is a idea to get all of us who would otherwise stay at home and save money and get more training time for AN to go to Sectionals. Also, I think that this could be a sad introduction to a issue that has been brought up several times before and dropped like a hot potato- the concept to make AN all-qualifying.
Lastly,I agree with skaternum in that this idea may promote sandbagging.
There's my few cents.

Stormy

04-15-2007, 06:26 PM

No, the idea wasn't to make AN all qualifying, the open events would still occur. It's in addition to the open events. I'm against it for a few reasons, a lot of which I brought up in the Solo Dance petition thread. ANs is already about a week long and adding those events would add on another day, more expenses for LOC and skaters alike, you'd HAVE to attend Sectionals and Nationals (I know many who do one or the other), I also think it promotes sandbagging, plus I really do think Gold and Masters are where Championship belongs. I'm a silver skater and I know I'd be a lot more proud to get a Champ Gold title than a Champ Silver title. JMHO.

phoenix

04-15-2007, 08:12 PM

321 establishes a solo test track for adult and masters skaters. It's not clear from the wording whether this would be mandatory, as it is for the standard track, or whether it's optional. Anybody here know?

This is a totally separate testing track than the partnered track. A solo test track already exists (the skater *only* solos the dance--never partners at all. This was mainly done for the areas where there simply is no one to partner people through tests)--but it doesn't have an 'adult' version. So right now, adults testing on the solo track have to get the same passing average as the kids. The new rule would add an adult version, which would be the same dances, just a lower passing average.

On the partnered test track, you are right, adults never have to solo the dance. The standard skaters do, once they hit the silver level--and then they skate the dance both partnered and solo, one right after the other.

skaternum

04-15-2007, 08:25 PM

This is a totally separate testing track than the partnered track. A solo test track already exists (the skater *only* solos the dance--never partners at all. This was mainly done for the areas where there simply is no one to partner people through tests)--but it doesn't have an 'adult' version. So right now, adults testing on the solo track have to get the same passing average as the kids. The new rule would add an adult version, which would be the same dances, just a lower passing average.So, if I want to start testing dance as an adult, I can start taking just solo tests or I can take just partnered tests. Right?

phoenix

04-15-2007, 08:27 PM

So, if I want to start testing dance as an adult, I can start taking just solo tests or I can take just partnered tests. Right?

Once this new rule passes (and I imagine it will), yes. The one catch is, if you take some tests on the solo track & then decide to take some partnered tests, you have to start over again at the beginning, no matter how high you test solo.

jskater49

04-16-2007, 09:48 AM

321 establishes a solo test track for adult and masters skaters.

OH LORD. I just thought of something...if I want to switch to test masters - WOULD I HAVE TO TAKE THAT FRIGGIN DUTCH WALTZ again????

Hopefully not - I think that masters doesn't start in partner until pre bronze...hopefully it would be the same in solo track. I honestly don't think I could do that again and what if I failed????:o :o :frus: :frus:

j

skatingatty

04-16-2007, 10:22 AM

Throwing my 2 cents in since I'm going to Governing Council (yahoo!:) ): I agree that having Championship levels for bronze and silver is not a good idea. I'm an official silver level skater, and I wouldn't want to incur the costs of going to a sectional competition to qualify. Going to and competing in nationals is expensive enough. Having one competition for all skaters in the same level at bronze and silver makes more sense. If we had separate championships and open events, I can see a scenario where the top open skaters actually give better performances than the championship winners. I'm a pretty die-hard adult skater, but I don't like the hassle of traveling and competing somewhere far from home enough to also go to a qualifying competition. I only did sectionals last year because it was a 35-min. drive from home.

saras

04-16-2007, 10:27 AM

I don't see any proposed changes to the Novice MIF test and above - there's talk of twizzles being added to the Novice, Junior and Senior MIF tests??

Or did I just miss it in the RFA?

-_Sara

Rusty Blades

04-16-2007, 10:32 AM

302 adds championship singles events for silver and bronze. . . Also, I think having championship events would just exacerbate sandbagging at these levels.

Well that would pretty much ensure us old beginners from north of the border never have a chance to join you at U.S. Adults!

U.S.F.S.A. already require a jump sequence in Bronze whereas ISU doesn't (ISU set maximums but not minimums.)

Having started at 56 (14 months ago) I expect my rising skills to hit the physical limitation ceiling sometime in the next 15 years and that ceiling MAY include some single jumps but wont likely include doubles.

Ya'll have a REAL sandbagging problem down there or just people suspecting there is sandbagging? Can't really say I have seen any sign of it here. Some people are comfortable testing when they think they meet the minimum passing standard while others wait until they are more confident of a clean pass.

flo

04-16-2007, 10:43 AM

Championship rounds are overkill. Qualify at nats - skate at nats.

jskater49

04-16-2007, 10:50 AM

Ya'll have a REAL sandbagging problem down there or just people suspecting there is sandbagging? Can't really say I have seen any sign of it here. Some people are comfortable testing when they think they meet the minimum passing standard while others wait until they are more confident of a clean pass.

I think with most adults, the question of sandbagging is really much more complicated than at first glance. I've learned to hold judgment because adults are so different on what they can learn ...what they can do. I have confidence I'll be able to pass bronze moves but I seriously question whether I will ever be able to do a real sit spin so I may never move up to bronze freestyle.

I like to compete and hopefully someday (trust me, nobody's gonna accuse me of sandbagging anytime soon) I'll be REALLY REALLY good at pre-bronze even without a sitspin and somebody may accuse me of sandbagging but they just don't know the whole story.

I don't worry about it - I enjoy competing for a lot of other reasons than getting medals and if someone really is holding back to collect medals, they are just hurting themselves and their progress more than they are taking any skin off my nose. Sandbagging is it's own punishment as far as I'm concerned.

j

jenlyon60

04-16-2007, 10:56 AM

I don't see any proposed changes to the Novice MIF test and above - there's talk of twizzles being added to the Novice, Junior and Senior MIF tests??

Or did I just miss it in the RFA?

-_Sara

The Report from the Singles Committee states

"Continuation of the development of new moves in the field that was initiated in 2005 - 2006 years. During this season we have established a subcommittee under the direction of Janet Champion to review twelve new moves in the field that cover changes in our skaters needs with the advent of IJS. Currently the moves are being evaluated by the subcommittee.

The following steps are planned in the next 12 months
- Subcommittee will recommend which new moves will be added and which
existing moves will be altered or removed. Goal of maintaining existing test
length times to minimize impact on member club test sessions is a primary
focus of this effort.
- Recommendations will be forwarded to entire committee for review and
discussion.
- RFAs will be proposed at 2008 Governing Council with expected
implementation, if accepted, in September 2008."

This is on page 73.

Frumpy

04-16-2007, 11:10 AM

302 adds championship singles events for silver and bronze. .... Personally, I don't think we should have "championship" events for these levels. I think these levels are just too low to justify calling something a championship. ...I think having championship events would just exacerbate sandbagging at these levels.

I agree entirely, and I'm also a silver skater. Isn't having a QR and FR at nationals enough at the Bronze and Silver levels? Besides, for a lot of people (myself included), AN is our "big travel competition" at this point in my "skating career"...financially speaking.

Qualifying for the Gold-level championships is a lofty goal, a motivator, and an aspiration! :bow: What's the point behind having it at the levels below Gold?

That's my humble opinion on that matter. :halo:

jazzpants

04-16-2007, 11:21 AM

301 changes the Adult Bronze WBP to match the test requirement for spins. Seems like the right thing to do. Lots of Bronze skaters got caught in that little mess from last year. This would correct the mistake.FINALLY!!! And it's a good thing that Jay never got around to finishing my choreography for my FS program. We're in no mood to rechoreographing the whole thing if we did it according to the current WBP requirements and then having to change it to suit the new one if it does pass.

(Besides that, I prefer to spin than jump! Easier on the lower back...and I SUCK at jumps!!! LOL!!! :twisted: :lol: :P )

302 adds championship singles events for silver and bronze. I think this is going to be a bit contentious on the floor of GC. Personally, I don't think we should have "championship" events for these levels. I think these levels are just too low to justify calling something a championship. And before anybody tries to crucify me for snobbery, let me state that I'm a silver skater, myself. Also, I think having championship events would just exacerbate sandbagging at these levels.Yeah, I'm not too happy about this one either. If anything, there's already enough sandbagging AS IS w/o having the Championship events there. (Of course, to be fair, I should also add that the sandbagging may NOT be intentional. Some people are really good with their FS program but are having major pains with passing the moves tests for the next level up.)

321 establishes a solo test track for adult and masters skaters. It's not clear from the wording whether this would be mandatory, as it is for the standard track, or whether it's optional. Anybody here know?I'm not for anything mandatory... but it would be nice to have that track as an option. I wonder if this is a step towards having Solo Dances events at AN. Hmmmm? :??

Hannahclear

04-16-2007, 01:28 PM

(Of course, to be fair, I should also add that the sandbagging may NOT be intentional. Some people are really good with their FS program but are having major pains with passing the moves tests for the next level up.)

I don't really see how that's sandbagging? If you can't pass the next Moves test, then you aren't at that level. That doesn't mean that you can't be really good at the level you have attained, does it?

jazzpants

04-16-2007, 01:53 PM

I don't really see how that's sandbagging? If you can't pass the next Moves test, then you aren't at that level. That doesn't mean that you can't be really good at the level you have attained, does it?Well, that's the point! jskater49 made a comment about her reserving judgement of the skater that is perceived (keyword) to be a sandbagger. You don't know their circumstances unless you actually talk to the skater themselves. One may be stuck at moves hell. Another skater is stuck with camel spin or axel hell. Or it may be a matter of logistics and just getting enough time to prepare for that next moves test and they're too busy preparing for their AN debut to work on those moves for the test. You never know! And you always have to be accepting of the fact that you are always gonna have sandbaggers. Doesn't mean that you don't strive to "keep up with them." But just that you have to be mindful of that if you end up getting knocked off the medal stands (or in my case, likeliness of ending up in the cellar in the standings. :P :lol: )

But it doesn't mean that I would want to encourage the behavior either (and from what I hear already, there are some skaters this year at AN that were sandbagging for sure!) And that's why I don't support the Championship events for Bronze and Silver.

Thin-Ice

04-17-2007, 07:52 AM

Realistically speaking, Championship Bronze events would probably be just for the younger levels of skaters anyway. And those are the skaters who have the best chance of actually making it all the way up to Gold, where they can reap the rewards of having a Championship event. As a "forever Bronze" skater, I think it would be best to leave the Championship events the way they are.

On a slightly different note, if Sectionals are eliminated, as has been discussed, many of our newest skaters will never know the joy of skating at a major adult event. Adult Sectionals are one of the best ways for No-Test, Pre-Bronze and new Bronze skaters to find out what adult skating is all about. If they can't compete, chances are they will not travel to AN, so Adult Sectionals is a place for them to compete or come see how we as a group of Adult Skaters are.. and that's easier to do if it's closer to home (as Sectionals are) for those who haven't completely "caught" the Adult skating bug yet.

jskater49

04-17-2007, 08:42 AM

MusicSkateFan

04-17-2007, 09:43 AM

I could be swayed either way on the issue of championship silver and bronze.

If you did get rid of sectionals all together...I think that there are enough competitions that offer Adult events for just about everyone out there.

Sectionals I think will be needed for the gold/master ladies...there are just too many and it would be too difficult for them to have a qual round at Nats

:roll: :roll:
Dunno it is getting so confusing!

sk8er1964

04-17-2007, 09:51 AM

Sectionals I think will be needed for the gold/master ladies...there are just too many and it would be too difficult for them to have a qual round at Nats

That's true, especially in Gold. We had a QR in Gold III this year (it's happened twice now in the five years since I've been competing). So in a case like this, would we have to skate a QR to wheedle down the numbers for a sort of FR to determine who would skate in the championship round? 8O

What I'd actually like to see, though, is an age break in championship events. Something like 21-40 and 41+. We probably have enough skaters at Gold and masters to support it, and it brings more opportunities for those of us old folks who aren't getting any younger! :lol:

manleywoman

04-17-2007, 10:37 AM

Sectionals I think will be needed for the gold/master ladies...there are just too many and it would be too difficult for them to have a qual round at Nats

yes, but look at the guys, Gold and Masters. They have to spend hundreds of dollars to fly somewhere just to show up and qualify. Is that fair?

flo

04-17-2007, 10:53 AM

Does anyone really go to Sectionals and not Nationals? It was one of the questions on the survey, so should be interesting.

It is very possible to have initial and final rounds at Nationals with large numbers - in my first bronze event we had 5 flights. There's just not enough difference in the competitors in open and championship events to justify them. Going to a sectionals event to qualify for the sake of qualifying to go to an event you would go to anyway is too much of a duplication of effort. There should be one or the other. The only point of qualifying events at sectionals would be to limit the numbers of skaters attending nationals, and we're not actively attempting to do that right now. It was a concern many years ago, but not anymore.

badaxel

04-17-2007, 11:43 AM

Ellyn

04-17-2007, 12:19 PM

What is the reasoning behind the proposal? To mix the age groups? To get people to qualify through sectionals? To reward the very best bronze- and silver-level skaters in the country?

What if they had a superfinal round at Adult Nationals with the top two or three skaters from each age group competing against each other?

Other than making some skaters skate the same program three times at AN adding two more men's and ladies' events to the schedule, would that achieve any of the goals?

sk8er1964

04-17-2007, 12:52 PM

I've gone to sectionals and not nationals before, and I was planning on doing it again next year. Only because sectionals is close to where I live, though. But, I'm also not doing a qualifying event- I'm at Silver.

I went to sectionals last year with no intention of going to Dallas. If I had qualified, I would have withdrawn to let the 5th place skater go. Also, I'm of two minds right now on whether or not I'll go back to Lake pLacid - I may decide to go only if I qualify.

manleywoman

04-17-2007, 01:11 PM

What if they had a superfinal round at Adult Nationals with the top two or three skaters from each age group competing against each other?

That's what the original proposal for eliminating Sectionals proposed. Rather than have another qualifying round at ANs (not enough time to do this) you take the top finishers from each age group. And it would be percentage based (ie: if one age group has 12 skaters, but the others has only 3, you take top 4 from the former and top 1 from the latter, you see?). That way it's truly a representation of the best of each age group within a level. It levels the playing field, so to speak. It also gets rid of the disparity of the regions (though that's not as much of an issue now as it was when Masters Ladies had 13-17 skaters at easterns and Mids and only 4 in Pacifics for years and years).

Financially speaking, getting rid of Sectionals allowed skaters and the USFS to save money. And this is a real problem. It is difficult for skaters to take off work twice for Sectionals and ANs within 6 weeks of each other, and it is equally hard to get officials/judges to fly twice in 6 weeks also. Plus it's unfair to the men who are too few in number to bother holding a Sectional but to force them to spend the money to do so just to step on the ice and qualify.

And if you don't have to take off work twice in a few weeks to attend both events, it's possible to then extend ANs by a day. It may not be necessary, as there are other ways of cutting time out from ANs. There was talk at the Adult Meeting at ANs of doing away with the 20-minute warm ups. Sorry, but it's not something that Standard track does, and if people want Solo Dance and other events, getting rid of the 20 minute WU could allow all of this to fit. Do we really need 20 minutes to warm up your 1:40 interp program?

It also allows the Adult Nationals LOC to get the final numbers from USFS faster in order to get the final schedule to the AN competitors faster. Having just gone through this, we were not able to release the schedule or practice ice schedule until Mids was finished and people had turned in their intent to skate in their Open event. All this affected the release of the schedule. You all were hammering us "when is the schedule coming? when is practice ice coming?" Well, if Sectionals didn't exist, you'd get the schedule for ANs a LOT faster. That's just a reality. One could argue that Sectionals and ANs simply need to be further apart, but that's not always possible.

Long story short: the adult competitive track needs a lot of work. There are things that work well, and other things that don't. Another issue brought up at the meeting last Friday: Why are the age groups smaller at the low-end of the age range (21-28, 29-35) while the other span 10 years, resulting in the larger numbers of skaters in those higher age groups getting multiple qualifying rounds? They ended up combining I & II a lot throughout last week just to get a competition, while the IIIs and IVs had Q-rounds. Perhaps the age ranges should be shifted to reflect our demographic of older skaters: 21-30, 31-40, 41-47, 48-55, 56-??

Lots to consider.

Meant to add: The reason for adding Champ Bronze and Silver was to reflect the fact that our Bronze and Silver level skaters make up the bulk of competitors, so why not give them a Championship option similar to Gold and Masters? You don't have to do it if it's not your thing, but it makes sense. It was not to encourage sandbagging for goodness' sake, and it wasn't to make ANs all-qualifying.

TimDavidSkate

04-17-2007, 01:47 PM

So will the 20 min warmup be eliminated from free skate events or just interp. Hopefully it will just for the interp :halo:

skaternum

04-17-2007, 01:48 PM

Meant to add: The reason for adding Champ Bronze and Silver was to reflect the fact that our Bronze and Silver level skaters make up the bulk of competitors, so why not give them a Championship option similar to Gold and Masters? You don't have to do it if it's not your thing, but it makes sense.It makes sense to you, but not necessarily to everyone. Just because you have a lot of bodies doesn't necessarily mean you have to have something called a "championship."

It was not to encourage sandbagging for goodness' sake, and it wasn't to make ANs all-qualifying.Agree, but I think one of the side effects of this action would be sandbagging. Of course it isn't the intent, but I think it's going to be a result.

Rusty Blades

04-17-2007, 01:54 PM

Perhaps the age ranges should be shifted .... 48-55, 56-??

Harumph! So now I'd be a "??" - thanks A LOT! :roll: ;)

The reason for adding Champ Bronze and Silver was to reflect the fact that our Bronze and Silver level skaters make up the bulk of competitors, so why not give them a Championship option similar to Gold and Masters?

Good for you! Us over-the-hill beginners might not be the best skaters but we're sure ENTHUSIASTIC!

flo

04-17-2007, 02:02 PM

"Do we really need 20 minutes to warm up your 1:40 interp program?"

Yes!!!! Or stronger coffee!!!!!

Nats use to end on Sunday, and then it was made a travel day. I'm all for beginning on Tuesday. I think the upper age groups are larger because that's where alot of are who started this a while ago. I just don't see the need for the championship rounds at all. Someone just asked for age groups, so the larger they get, the more similar they will be to the "open" rounds.

daisies

04-17-2007, 02:15 PM

Another benefit of eliminating sectionals and using the AN open events as qualifiers for the Championship rounds is that it will simply increase participation in open events. A lot of times skaters enter the open but then drop out if they qualify for Championship. This will keep participation in the open events high.

BTW, AN did used to end on Sunday, but it also began on Thursday. It was always four days. It can remain four days under this new structure. Depending on the number of entries, solo dance might make it five. But honestly, solo dance can go at 7am -- and I say that being someone who would enter it. At least it would keep the pairs from having to skate that early!

Another BTW ... standard trackers do get an official warmup at Nationals. It may or may not be 20 minutes, but they do get ice the day of their competition on their competition surface.

manleywoman

04-17-2007, 02:53 PM

Hannahclear

04-17-2007, 03:09 PM

Manleywoman,

You make a number of good points and have definitely convinced me!

I went to Sectionals this year, but skated up a level and didn't go to AN. I only went to Sectionals because it was near me.

Next year, I'll go to AN but probably not Sectionals. I can't afford to do both, and maybe it does make sense to make one giant competition.

NoVa Sk8r

04-17-2007, 03:29 PM

dcden

04-17-2007, 03:35 PM

That's what the original proposal for eliminating Sectionals proposed. Rather than have another qualifying round at ANs (not enough time to do this) you take the top finishers from each age group. And it would be percentage based (ie: if one age group has 12 skaters, but the others has only 3, you take top 4 from the former and top 1 from the latter, you see?). That way it's truly a representation of the best of each age group within a level. It levels the playing field, so to speak. It also gets rid of the disparity of the regions (though that's not as much of an issue now as it was when Masters Ladies had 13-17 skaters at easterns and Mids and only 4 in Pacifics for years and years).
I don't agree with the suggestion to use the open events as qualifying rounds to a championship event, with percentages taken from each age class. I don't mean to be ageist here but how can you guarantee that the best 33% (using your 4/12 and 1/3 example) of class V skaters would compare against the best 33% of class I skaters? If the group of 12 skaters comes from class I and the group of 3 comes from class V, then perhaps the 5th best class I skater would outskate the best class V skater, but would not be able to qualify under your scenario. IMO using such a method would not level the playing field but actually do the opposite.

Financially speaking, getting rid of Sectionals allowed skaters and the USFS to save money. And this is a real problem. It is difficult for skaters to take off work twice for Sectionals and ANs within 6 weeks of each other, and it is equally hard to get officials/judges to fly twice in 6 weeks also. Plus it's unfair to the men who are too few in number to bother holding a Sectional but to force them to spend the money to do so just to step on the ice and qualify.
I can speak from personal experience that sectionals is most certainly NOT a case of just stepping on the ice and qualifying. And if you were to extend sectionals to silver and bronze men, where the numbers are greater, it would be even more the case that sectionals is non-trivial. So you'd have to have some kind of qualifier. Again, I think using age group or open events at AN is not the best way to do this; qualifying out of each section seems fairer. If there are disproportionate numbers between sections for any given event, then you could use a percentage system since there is no quantifiable advantage of training in any one section versus another, or just use the existing fill-up rule.

And if you don't have to take off work twice in a few weeks to attend both events, it's possible to then extend ANs by a day. It may not be necessary, as there are other ways of cutting time out from ANs. There was talk at the Adult Meeting at ANs of doing away with the 20-minute warm ups. Sorry, but it's not something that Standard track does, and if people want Solo Dance and other events, getting rid of the 20 minute WU could allow all of this to fit. Do we really need 20 minutes to warm up your 1:40 interp program?
I would really not want to get rid of 20 minute warmups. As hard as practice ice is to come by at Adult nationals, for some of us the 20 minute warmup is the only ice time we get aside from the 6 minute warmup and our actual event. I would rather have fewer events at AN done well than to have more events crammed into the competition with less opportunity to prepare well for them. But if we get rid of 20 minute warmups, then the new entry fee should reflect a proportional decrease as well!

It also allows the Adult Nationals LOC to get the final numbers from USFS faster in order to get the final schedule to the AN competitors faster. Having just gone through this, we were not able to release the schedule or practice ice schedule until Mids was finished and people had turned in their intent to skate in their Open event. All this affected the release of the schedule. You all were hammering us "when is the schedule coming? when is practice ice coming?" Well, if Sectionals didn't exist, you'd get the schedule for ANs a LOT faster. That's just a reality. One could argue that Sectionals and ANs simply need to be further apart, but that's not always possible.

If you transferred qualifying to occur at AN, this does not necessarily make it more convenient for the athletes. For example, this year, I had enough time after sectionals to determine what my final travel plans would be for nationals based on whether I qualified to championship or not and to book a flight and hotel on appropriate dates. If qualifying had been transferred to occur at AN, then I would have had to arrange to stay at Nationals at least through to the final day (i.e. final rounds) even though I would not have actually known whether I would have qualified to compete till then.

All in all, I can understand both sides of the argument for adding championship rounds to Bronze and Silver. But I would be opposed to adding these championship rounds if it meant doing away with sectionals and using open rounds as qualifiers.

TimDavidSkate

04-17-2007, 03:37 PM

Manleywoman,
Next year, I'll go to AN but probably not Sectionals. I can't afford to do both, and maybe it does make sense to make one giant competition.

Very good one! Its hard saving up for two competitions. I'd rather save for only one. Next year my club will be hosting (NJFSC) sectionals so I can make it.

phoenix

04-17-2007, 03:38 PM

There was talk at the Adult Meeting at ANs of doing away with the 20-minute warm ups. Sorry, but it's not something that Standard track does....

Yes it is. At qualifying events everyone gets practice ice (I think it's 20 min., not sure on that), EVERY DAY, up to and including the day of their event. No extra cost either, I believe.

I'd say the official warmups could be done away with, if there's sufficient practice ice to allow everyone to at least skate/warmup the day of their event. It makes a HUGE difference (for me, at least).

Michigansk8er

04-17-2007, 03:53 PM

It is very possible to have initial and final rounds at Nationals with large numbers - in my first bronze event we had 5 flights. There's just not enough difference in the competitors in open and championship events to justify them. Going to a sectionals event to qualify for the sake of qualifying to go to an event you would go to anyway is too much of a duplication of effort. There should be one or the other. The only point of qualifying events at sectionals would be to limit the numbers of skaters attending nationals, and we're not actively attempting to do that right now. It was a concern many years ago, but not anymore.

I totally agree.

An additional thing I would like to see, however, is for those qualifying for a championship event to be required to withdraw from open events at the same level.........but I don't see that happening.

I have no problem with championship events for bronze and silver. I would never have a shot at it, but think it would be a nice option for those that would like to try. After all, the kids have Junior Nationals, so why not? As for sandbaggers, there will always be a few, no matter how things are structured.

Hannahclear

04-17-2007, 05:45 PM

daisies

04-17-2007, 05:52 PM

I'm a little confused by what the 20 minute warmup is, but that's probably because I haven't been to AN yet. Is this practice ice or something else? I don't think 20 minutes is overmuch for a practice session?

It's basically a free practice session on the day of your event -- and usually on the same surface -- to allow skaters to warm up several hours ahead of time.

manleywoman

04-17-2007, 06:00 PM

So everyone wants to keep their 20 minute warm-up. But everyone also wants to add solo dance. But everyone also wants to use IJs from now on. But everyone also wants to keep the entry fees the same. Etc, etc, etc.

See where I'm going here?

Guys, we can't do it all. Something has to give, whether it's adding days, charging higher prices, consolidating age groups, or whatever. It's all well and good to want all these great things, but it's expensive, and we only have four days, and only so many LOCs willing to host ANs and Sectionals. So you all need to consider the parameters that the adult community has to work with when adding or poo-pooing ideas.

Stormy

04-17-2007, 06:23 PM

So everyone wants to keep their 20 minute warm-up. But everyone also wants to add solo dance. But everyone also wants to use IJs from now on. But everyone also wants to keep the entry fees the same. Etc, etc, etc.

See where I'm going here?

Guys, we can't do it all. Something has to give, whether it's adding days, charging higher prices, consolidating age groups, or whatever. It's all well and good to want all these great things, but it's expensive, and we only have four days, and only so many LOCs willing to host ANs and Sectionals. So you all need to consider the parameters that the adult community has to work with when adding or poo-pooing ideas.

That's what I was trying to bring up in the Solo Dance thread. Truly, we can't have it all, we especially can't have it cheaply at 4 days, much as we'd all like that. Would it be neat to have Championship Bronze and Silver? Sure. Is it really possible? Yes, at the likely expense of something else. What would you rather have?

I don't see how the kids having JNs is the same though. I don't have to qualify for Nationals. It's DOUBLY hard for a kid to get into the finals at JNs, they have to qualify through Regionals (sometimes through two qualifiers) and then qualify again at JNs. It's not the same.

manleywoman

04-17-2007, 06:34 PM

That's what I was trying to bring up in the Solo Dance thread. Truly, we can't have it all, we especially can't have it cheaply at 4 days, much as we'd all like that. Would it be neat to have Championship Bronze and Silver? Sure. Is it really possible? Yes, at the likely expense of something else. What would you rather have?

Frankly, I'd rather have events like Solo Dance or Champ Bronze and Silver instead of 20 minute warm ups. Adults buy enough practice ice as it is, and frankly, if you don't know your elements or routine by the time you arrive, no final practice session is going to fix that.

If you eliminated all the 20 minute warm ups for ALL the events, that would free up almost a day of ice time for other competitive events. Not saying that's the solution. It's just something to think about.

LWalsh

04-17-2007, 09:01 PM

If you transferred qualifying to occur at AN, this does not necessarily make it more convenient for the athletes. For example, this year, I had enough time after sectionals to determine what my final travel plans would be for nationals based on whether I qualified to championship or not and to book a flight and hotel on appropriate dates. If qualifying had been transferred to occur at AN, then I would have had to arrange to stay at Nationals at least through to the final day (i.e. final rounds) even though I would not have actually known whether I would have qualified to compete till then.
.

But the rest of us at Silver and Bronze who have qualifying events have to do exactly this already. What if we make the final round and we don't have a hotel reservation? I didn't make the final round this year in Silver III but I ended up staying the whole time because my trip was paid for. I spent $$$ for extra days I didn't need to be there. (But I did get to cheer on my friends!)

The 20 minute warm ups are costing a lot of money to the LOCs who are now facing much higher costs due to the IJS system. It was one idea brought up to help aleviate the schedule problems. There was a huge amount of ice time wasted waiting for IJS scoring. My rink charges nearly $400 an hour for ice. We could never host a compeition using IJS.

As for Bronze and Silver Championship. The bulk of the skaters are in the III category. Do we really think that they will all be moving to Gold? Sure some will, but not all. So why not give them a championship? On the other hand,.... it was stated by the LOC from ANs this year that it would probably add another day to the competition. The LOCs would have to pay for this ice and medals etc. Further stretching what is already becoming a tight budget.

There's a lot of pros and cons to these RFAs and it doesn't seem that everyone has all the information neccesary to make decisions (or direct their delegates to do so) that will benefit the adult sector. I wish there was a place that the adult committee could post some of these things that they are thinking about and the rationales before they get so far in the process that the delegates end up voting for/against things that they aren't fully informed about.

end of rambling....

LW

sk8er1964

04-17-2007, 09:12 PM

Speaking of 2008 Sectionals, I saw the list at AN, and this is what I remember:

Easterns: Ice Vault; Wayne, NJ; North Jersey FSC
Mids: Ice Cube (?); Ann Arbor, Mich.; Ann Arbor FSC
Pacifics: Portland, Ore.; Oregon Skating Council

Mids will be held at Veterans Arena in Ann Arbor MI, a couple of miles from the Cube. Some of you might have skated extra practice ice there when A2 hosted AN. It's the city owned rink - one sheet of ice (NHL sized), nice lobby, good locker rooms. We are limited by contract on how much ice we can reserve for competitions/ice show at the Cube during the hockey season. I do most of my skating at Vets (great ice). I just wish it was open year round.

As for time at AN, how about adding solo dance, championship events for bronze and silver, open events for pre-bronze, keeping the 20 minute warm up, and doing away with interp. (sk8er1964 runs and hides now)

ETA - personally, I don't use the 20 min warm up, I don't generally do interps, and it's doubtful (but not ruled out) that I would do solo dance.

manleywoman

04-17-2007, 09:14 PM

There's a lot of pros and cons to these RFAs and it doesn't seem that everyone has all the information neccesary to make decisions (or direct their delegates to do so) that will benefit the adult sector. I wish there was a place that the adult committee could post some of these things that they are thinking about and the rationales before they get so far in the process that the delegates end up voting for/against things that they aren't fully informed about.

Yes, but keep in mind that the adult committee is made up of a braod representation of adult skaters/judges. If you opened everything up to the general population, that could bring chaos. While I think it would be useful to have some way of getting information to the population, it's extremely difficult in implementation.

dcden

04-17-2007, 09:24 PM

So everyone wants to keep their 20 minute warm-up. But everyone also wants to add solo dance. But everyone also wants to use IJs from now on. But everyone also wants to keep the entry fees the same. Etc, etc, etc.

I think this is an exaggeration. I don't know of many people who would want to give up their 20 minute warm-up so that other events could be added, so I don't know where this sentiment is coming from. I know that for both of my events at AN, very few skipped out on the 20 minute warmup, and none of my friends who were competing at AN skipped out on their 20 minute warmups either. Given a choice, I'd certainly keep the 20 minute warmup... I don't think many people were clamoring for a change here, but then again, I wasn't at the Adult Committee meeting at AN so I could be wrong. Why was I not at the Adult Committee meeting? Because I was skating on my 20 minute warmup for my open event instead!!!

As for IJS, I was never a big fan of it - we could probably go back to 6.0 and IMO wind up with the same (or very similar) rankings and results we had with IJS, so again if it would save money to go back to 6.0 for everyone, great. I'm not clamoring for solo dance, either; not that I'm against the inclusion of the event on its own merit, just that if it means something else has to go then I'd rather rethink that idea.

Guys, we can't do it all. Something has to give, whether it's adding days, charging higher prices, consolidating age groups, or whatever

No one said we had to do it all. No one said we had to change anything. Or did they? In a post on the solo dance thread ( http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?p=317961#post317961) someone made the point that a few years ago we were trying to eliminate events at AN because it was too large. Now we're supposedly trying to add events, and now you're saying that for that to happen, something "has to give". Nothing has to give, though, if we don't add on events that we can't afford.

If we want to add Champ. Silver & Bronze, that could be done, but if you're going to do it, do it the right way by having qualifying at sectionals. And I say this as a Gold man who makes the trip to sectionals every year to go through the qualifying process without hesitation. Some years I qualified, other years I didn't. But I never thought that getting rid of sectionals was the answer (in fact, what was the question?). I see sectionals as another weekend to see my skating friends that I may not see at Nationals (that means you mskater!).

I think some of us are getting ahead of ourselves and seeing some of these changes (as well as their potential ramifications) as a foregone conclusion when that is hardly the case. Let's all just slow down a bit and not jump to conclusions here.

dcden

04-17-2007, 09:35 PM

But the rest of us at Silver and Bronze who have qualifying events have to do exactly this already. What if we make the final round and we don't have a hotel reservation? I didn't make the final round this year in Silver III but I ended up staying the whole time because my trip was paid for. I spent $$$ for extra days I didn't need to be there. (But I did get to cheer on my friends!)

The 20 minute warm ups are costing a lot of money to the LOCs who are now facing much higher costs due to the IJS system. It was one idea brought up to help aleviate the schedule problems. There was a huge amount of ice time wasted waiting for IJS scoring. My rink charges nearly $400 an hour for ice. We could never host a compeition using IJS.

Fair enough, that must be a hassle for you when you don't qualify for the FR of your open. But I do agree, if IJS is costing that much more for the LOC, then I say we scrap it (see my earlier post). I think that's preferable to potentially having to get rid of skaters' competitive and practice ice time.

There's a lot of pros and cons to these RFAs and it doesn't seem that everyone has all the information neccesary to make decisions (or direct their delegates to do so) that will benefit the adult sector. I wish there was a place that the adult committee could post some of these things that they are thinking about and the rationales before they get so far in the process that the delegates end up voting for/against things that they aren't fully informed about.

Good point, I and several others I know felt that the surveys that were passed around at Sectionals concerning the Champ. events were a bit leading... as if to say, "You want to keep the Champ. events, and maybe add them to Silver and Bronze, right? Good! But you don't want to have Sectionals because you'd rather have the qualifying take place at Nationals, right?"

I think what we can all agree on is that there seems to be no consensus as to what direction Adult Nationals is or should be really going in. Is the point to establish competitive/championship tracks for all? To be more inclusive to all levels of skaters? To turn a profit? To mirror standard or international tracks? As has been said on other threads, a mission statement may be needed here.

As for the other RFA that I did not yet comment on, which had to do with the WBP reqs for Bronze, I'm wholeheartedly in favor of it. I was confused why there was a discrepancy when the WBP reqs came out a year or so ago, but am glad that the Adult Committee has taken steps to correct this... bravo!

LWalsh

04-17-2007, 09:53 PM

Yes, but keep in mind that the adult committee is made up of a braod representation of adult skaters/judges. If you opened everything up to the general population, that could bring chaos. While I think it would be useful to have some way of getting information to the population, it's extremely difficult in implementation.

Oh absolutely. I'm not suggesting that we invoke chaos and I understand how easily this happens. However, I feel that as the President of a club, and adult skater, and delegate to Governing Council, I still have no general clue what is going on. If I hadn't gone to the meeting (which happened to not conflict with anything I was required to attend), I would never have known these issues. So therefore I may have shown up at GC, uninformed and voted for or against something that I might have chosen to vote differently if I had some of this information beforehand. Perhaps the internet is not the solution, but I think some effort needs to be made to communicate more effectively.

BTW - excellent job with the competition Manleywoman. I know that these things are a labor of love but nonetheless a huge effort!

LW

NoVa Sk8r

04-17-2007, 10:47 PM

I don't know of many people who would want to give up their 20 minute warm-up so that other events could be added, so I don't know where this sentiment is coming from. I know that for both of my events at AN, very few skipped out on the 20 minute warmup, and none of my friends who were competing at AN skipped out on their 20 minute warmups either. Given a choice, I'd certainly keep the 20 minute warmup... Amen! Also, on the practice ice, there were, on all my sessions, 21 skaters on the ice. Needless to say, I had to abort many elements. But I had plenty of room on the 20-minute warmup.

And speaking of practice ice, I thought skaters were only allowed ONE session per day. I saw some people skate on at least 3 sessions per day!

Thin-Ice

04-18-2007, 03:41 AM

Comparing AN to standard Nationals isn't a fair comparison. The "kids" do have to qualify through Regionals and Sectionals to get to Nationals, and that means the organizers have fewer bodies/events to deal with than the LOC handling AN has.

I find the 20-minute practice ice on the competition surface the day of the event invaluable, so I can remember which way to come out of spins and where to head for footwork, especially when I've been bouncing back and forth between rinks for practices. That gives me a chance to really focus on the event I'm preparing to compete in. Do I NEED that for interp? probably not, but for technical events, yes, I do need it to perform my best.. and that is what I hope to do when I go to any competition but especially AN or Adult Sectionals.

As for the Championship Bronze and Silver events... I'm someone who will not be able to make it to Gold. (There may be those of you who will see this as a red flag and say "you could make it to gold if you really worked at it and wanted to, etc."... but you've probably never seen me skate, don't live my life, etc... so trust me on this one, I think I know what I'm capable of.. and passing the Gold Moves and FS test is probably not in the cards, unless I win the lottery and can build my own ice rink and not have to work). I think the Championship events are amazing and those who do compete in them are to be honored for their dedication and talent. I just don't see the need for it at the Bronze (and probably Silver) levels, although there are many skaters at those levels who are also amazing skaters.

And just out of curiosity -- I SWEAR I am not trying to stir up trouble, if there were Solo Dance competitions at AN, would the dance couples still have IR and FR events? (As far as I, a non-dancer, can see there really is no difference in the two rounds since no one is eliminated, so it's not a qualifying round. Does it set the seeding for the event? Why is that necessary? We have blind draws for the FS events... and why is that less acceptable for dance? Again, I don't understand why this is done this way, I'm not advocating the Initial Rounds be eliminated, I'm just trying to figure this out and have never had the chance to ask the people who really DO know!) Thanks for the information!

skaternum

04-18-2007, 06:17 AM

Oh absolutely. I'm not suggesting that we invoke chaos and I understand how easily this happens. However, I feel that as the President of a club, and adult skater, and delegate to Governing Council, I still have no general clue what is going on. If I hadn't gone to the meeting (which happened to not conflict with anything I was required to attend), I would never have known these issues. So therefore I may have shown up at GC, uninformed and voted for or against something that I might have chosen to vote differently if I had some of this information beforehand. Perhaps the internet is not the solution, but I think some effort needs to be made to communicate more effectively.
I completely agree. The Adult Skating Committee needs to put something on the adult page of the USFSA website and [i]thoroughly[i] explain the rationale behind the RFAs for GC, including commentary on some of the issues raised here and elsewhere. And they really need to publicize and explain the statement about getting rid of Adult Sectionals. I wasn't at AN this year, so all I've heard about that is hearsay from people who were (or weren't) at the meeting.

flo

04-18-2007, 08:52 AM

Do we know how well attended the warm ups are? I think many of us skip them. I do if they're too early. But as It has been said - there needs to be sufficient practice ice - no more 23 sessions per person.

I'm in favor of no championship rounds at all. If we must have them, then the skater can not skate in the same open event. How many times do the same people need to do the same program?

coskater64

04-18-2007, 08:54 AM

I find it all very interesting. My point of view is this:

Solo dance, there are a lot of us (women) who dance and will never find partners, I personally am too tall, I need a partner who is 6'2 minimum and can keep up with me. I enjoy solo dance as it works on details like edge quality, timing and posture. There are a lot of us who would like to compete in this event, it would most likely just be two dances unless the group was large and then there might be a IR and FR. In the end there will never be enough men for all us to have partners this allows a need to be meet and promotes and encourages people who may only dance because they don't like to FS.

I find it very amusing that so many people are against the Bronze and Silver championship events. When I skated silver I thought it was unfair that only gold had the championship event. I have always gone to my sectionals as a silver, gold and master's novice skater. It is friday plus the weekend, if you were to add the qualifying to AN's it would add even more events if you leave it at the sectional it helps the sectional garner more skaters and be a profitable event. Should you qualify you can still skate your open event and the general schedule will tell you when you skate your champ event so you know how long to stay at AN's and not waste $$$. I have yet to see how this will promote sandbagging, if you finish in the top 3 of your level more than two years in a row move up...(of course that is what I was taught) ... many people may not like that idea so, take for what it's worth, imho.

Unfortunately, it looks like the grants will become very scarce, it may mean that AN's will have to find sponsor for the event. IJS is a very fair system and I have seen it work with paper and pencil in Oberstdorf and Mountain Cup. I have also seen it work much faster at my local regional events and at competitions like Broadmoor, where once they got it going it went well, it was getting it started that took some time. I also have to admit that I am confused as to why they don't use the paper and pencil system I saw in O'dorf we had results in usually about 5 minutes and they would call our scores about 2 minutes after we skated then the next skater would go. It seems an over reliance on technology could be to blame or just the fact that the ISU system is the standard in Europe and people are just much more comfortable with it. It might be cheaper if we just go the paper and pencil route.

I usually go with my club to GC, and for anyone who is curious you should go, they send out a large packet that arrives about 3 weeks prior to GC. It is a very interesting event and run with a very strict set of rules. I find GC fascinating, I have spoken on items before as has daisies, it is an experience you should do if possible.

As US figure skating faces the loss of lucrative contracts with ABC/ESPN the question is what will happen, will our upcoming skater's lose funding? Will all events be required to get outside monies to run? What will happen to all facets of skating with this revenue stream gone? It looks like skating is going to get a lot more expensive...sigh.:frus:

blue111moon

04-18-2007, 09:00 AM

For people in the New England area, the New England Inter Club Council is hosting an informational meeting to discuss all the proposals for Governing Council on Saturday, April 21. See www.neicc.org for more information.

FrankR

04-18-2007, 09:27 AM

And speaking of practice ice, I thought skaters were only allowed ONE session per day. I saw some people skate on at least 3 sessions per day!

Actually, the way it was stated on the practice ice reservation form, skaters were allowed one session per day PER EVENT. So if said skaters were entered in three events, then they would be entitled to three sessions per day.

NoVa Sk8r

04-18-2007, 09:31 AM

Actually, the way it was stated on the practice ice reservation form, skaters were allowed one session per day PER EVENT. So if said skaters were entered in three events, then they would be entitled to three sessions per day.That's what I thought and should have specified, but some teams (entered in only one event) were skating on more than one session per day.

FrankR

04-18-2007, 09:43 AM

That's what I thought and should have specified, but some teams (entered in only one event) were skating on more than one session per day.

Wow. Really? I didn't notice this. Granted, I arrived Thursday and didn't skate until Friday afternoon. Perhaps you were only allowed to reserve one session per event per day in advance, but if there were openings on other sessions, you could pay walk-on for those? For what it's worth, the sessions I was on were not very crowded at all. There may have been about twelve skaters on the most crowded practice ice session I attended and that was on Friday afternoon.

NoVa Sk8r

04-18-2007, 09:48 AM

Wow. Really? I didn't notice this. Granted, I arrived Thursday and didn't skate until Friday afternoon. Perhaps you were only allowed to reserve one session per event per day in advance, but if there were openings on other sessions, you could pay walk-on for those? For what it's worth, the sessions I was on were not very crowded at all. There may have been about twelve skaters on the most crowded practice ice session I attended and that was on Friday afternoon.It wasn't a huge problem, and I, at least, expect major traffic on any AN practice session. But some more advanced skaters were practicing on lower-level-designated sessions--and then had the temerity to complain about how everyone was getting in the way. :??

FrankR

04-18-2007, 09:56 AM

It wasn't a huge problem, and I, at least, expect major traffic on any AN practice session. But some more advanced skaters were practicing on lower-level-designated sessions--and then had the temerity to complain about how everyone was getting in the way. :??

Gotcha. Well maybe we should include print-outs of the handy-dandy "Freestyle/Patch Session Guideline" topic here on skatingforums in the application packet for next year's Adult Nats. ;) :lol:

manleywoman

04-18-2007, 10:18 AM

IJS is a very fair system and I have seen it work with paper and pencil in Oberstdorf and Mountain Cup. I have also seen it work much faster at my local regional events and at competitions like Broadmoor, where once they got it going it went well, it was getting it started that took some time. I also have to admit that I am confused as to why they don't use the paper and pencil system I saw in O'dorf we had results in usually about 5 minutes and they would call our scores about 2 minutes after we skated then the next skater would go. It seems an over reliance on technology could be to blame or just the fact that the ISU system is the standard in Europe and people are just much more comfortable with it. It might be cheaper if we just go the paper and pencil route.

It was explained at the Adult Meeting that O'dorf gets an additional $50,000 to use IJS. Which pays for all the extra manpower and technology to get those results announced immediately in the Kiss & Cry.

manleywoman

04-18-2007, 10:22 AM

Personally, I think if Champ Silver/Bronze are added, Sectionals must stay in order tyo handle those qualifiers. If they are not added, Sectionals could go, as you could take the top finishers from the Gold/Masters open events.

All these decisions affect other decisions that have to be made. The Adult ranks are a tricky business!

flying~camel

04-18-2007, 10:33 AM

Do I NEED that for interp? probably not, but for technical events, yes, I do need it to perform my best..

ITA - I think I used maybe 10 mins of my 20-minute official warm up for interp and spent the rest of the time just skating around (I figured I should at least be on the ice since it was included in my entry fee!).

I think it might be beneficial to either do away with official warm ups for interp or possibly just make them shorter.

manleywoman

04-18-2007, 10:50 AM

Good point, I and several others I know felt that the surveys that were passed around at Sectionals concerning the Champ. events were a bit leading... as if to say, "You want to keep the Champ. events, and maybe add them to Silver and Bronze, right? Good! But you don't want to have Sectionals because you'd rather have the qualifying take place at Nationals, right?"

I agree completely, and said so at the meeting. Marna Grim brought up a great point too, that the poeple who the survey most affected in regards to adding Champ Bronze/Silver ... the Bronze/Silver skaters! ... were not as a whole even ATTENDING Sectionals to be able to fill out a survey that directly affected them. So I thought the survey was way off in it's delivery. Besides which the ones that went to Easterns and Pacifics didn't list the pros/cons to any of the ideas brought forth.

flo

04-18-2007, 10:59 AM

Nova - at least they've stopped trying to do pairs on a fs practice! Some people will try to get as much practice ice as they possibly can with no consideration for the other 589 skaters at nats.

FrankR

04-18-2007, 11:07 AM

Adults buy enough practice ice as it is, and frankly, if you don't know your elements or routine by the time you arrive, no final practice session is going to fix that.

I think to refer to the official twenty minute warm-up as "more practice ice" is not accurate. Often times, the practice ice we do get is rarely on the sheet of ice where we perform our competitive skate. Most of the time the practice ice is actually in a totally different builiding than the competitive event. I understand that the demand for practice ice leads to having separate venues but I feel that makes the official warm-up on the competitive surface that much more important. I can only speak for myself, but on the official warm-up, I'm trying to get a feel for the ice where I'll be competing (not every sheet of ice feels the same to me) and I'm deciding which direction I'll be facing to start my program. Some might say that it doesn't take all of twenty minutes to do all of that but for me, at the moment, it does.

dcden

04-18-2007, 11:15 AM

I think to refer to the official twenty minute warm-up as "more practice ice" is not accurate. Often times, the practice ice we do get is rarely on the sheet of ice where we perform our competitive skate. Most of the time the practice ice is actually in a totally different builiding than the competitive event. I understand that the demand for practice ice leads to having separate venues but I feel that makes the official warm-up on the competitive surface that much more important. I can only speak for myself, but on the official warm-up, I'm trying to get a feel for the ice where I'll be competing (not every sheet of ice feels the same to me) and I'm deciding which direction I'll be facing to start my program. Some might say that it doesn't take all of twenty minutes to do all of that but for me, at the moment, it does.

I totally agree Frank! It's okay to have practice ice (i.e. not the official 20 minute warmups) on a separate sheet. If you're really hurting for ice time, I suppose these could be reduced or eliminated if the demand is not there to turn a profit, but I think the 20 min warmups should definitely be kept.

manleywoman

04-18-2007, 01:28 PM

I think it might be beneficial to either do away with official warm ups for interp or possibly just make them shorter.

Shorter perhaps, but to do away with them for Interp but not for other events isn't fair. There are lots of adults who come and just do interp. So I think you'd have to make it the same across the board.

daisies

04-18-2007, 01:35 PM

sk8er1964

04-18-2007, 01:51 PM

ITA about the 20-minute warmup as well. It's not practice ice, it's "warmup" ice ... to get a feel for the ice, to get your body moving, to figure out where you are when you come out of spins, where the judges are, where the audience is. IMO the 20-minute is more valuable than paid practice ice.

I'm in favor of eliminating sectionals and instituting Bronze and Silver Championship rounds, and IMO it will actually reduce the number of events at AN. Here's why:

When you use the open events as qualifiers, which is what is being proposed, you won't have separate final rounds for, say, Bronze Ladies II, Bronze Ladies III and Bronze Ladies IV ... you will have ONE final round, the Championship round, with skaters from all age groups who qualified out of their age-separated open events. For ladies, there will be four FS championship rounds -- Bronze, Silver, Gold and Masters. Four, period. Under the current system, there are potentially about three or so Bronze final rounds, three or so Silver final rounds, etc.

Doing it this way will really streamline it, potentially opening up time not only for solo dance but to accommodate what hopefully will be larger open events.

The only thing I really don't like about your suggestion (ok, not the only thing, because I like sectionals) is that there is a presumption that all of the top finishers in all of the age groups actually want to compete in a championship event. For example, maybe the V's don't want to have to compete against the I's. If you keep sectionals, then it is the V's choice as to whether or not she thinks she wants to try to skate with the I's. If I am reading your suggestion correctly (that the current open events would become the QR for the championship final round instead of standing on their own), then it is entirely plausible that the winner of the various masters ladies V QRs will end up at the bottom of the championship masters event every time they skate at AN, and what's the fun in that? Isn't the ability to be competitive the reason we have age-separated groups to begin with?

FrankR

04-18-2007, 01:56 PM

I'm in favor of eliminating sectionals and instituting Bronze and Silver Championship rounds, and IMO it will actually reduce the number of events at AN. Here's why:

When you use the open events as qualifiers, which is what is being proposed, you won't have separate final rounds for, say, Bronze Ladies II, Bronze Ladies III and Bronze Ladies IV ... you will have ONE final round, the Championship round, with skaters from all age groups who qualified out of their age-separated open events. For ladies, there will be four FS championship rounds -- Bronze, Silver, Gold and Masters. Four, period. Under the current system, there are potentially about three or so Bronze final rounds, three or so Silver final rounds, etc.

Doing it this way will really streamline it, potentially opening up time not only for solo dance but to accommodate what hopefully will be larger open events.

I'm still not sure how I feel about eliminating Adult Sectionals. I guess I'll mull it over some more. However, based on what I've read, I'm not sure I agree with the proposed percentage-based selection process across the age groups. If Adult Sectionals were eliminated and the open events were used as qualifiers, wouldn't it be more equitable to select the field for the championship events by comparing the Total Segment Scores from the open events for all ages instead?

FrankR

04-18-2007, 02:01 PM

The only thing I really don't like about your suggestion (ok, not the only thing, because I like sectionals) is that there is a presumption that all of the top finishers in all of the age groups actually want to compete in a championship event.

That's another very good point. As you say, not everyone is interested in competing in a championship event. Granted, if a skater qualifies for the championship event via this new system, I would assume they would have the option to bow out if they so desire. But then if that becomes the case, it could get complicated as to deciding who would get that now vacant spot in the championship round if we're taking a percentage from each age class. How do we decide which of the skaters that barely missed the cut in their respective age classes gets the chance to fill in?

daisies

04-18-2007, 02:08 PM

As you say, not everyone is interested in competing in a championship event. Granted, if a skater qualifies for the championship event via this new system, I would assume they would have the option to bow out if they so desire.

Exactly. No one's forcing them to do the final. They still get to compete against their age peers in the open events -- that part doesn't change at all. It's only the final round portion. Skaters who would normally have a final round still will (under a different name, "championship"), and skaters who don't usually have a final (typically age groups I and V) will have a final, but no one's putting a gun to their head to do it. It would just be icing on the cake, as they say!

BTW, to the previous poster, it's not "my" suggestion. It's the adult skating committee's!

jazzpants

04-18-2007, 02:14 PM

My only concerns about eliminating Adult Sectionals are two: 1) the cost of traveling for some of the competitors and 2) by taking out Sectionals, it eliminates a major avenue for No-Test and Pre-Bronze FS skaters to compete.

The cost thing is already covered here on this thread. I for one, am definitely in that case too. I certainly can't afford to go traveling to different parts of the country each year. I certainly couldn't afford Chicago this year, even I am eligible to go. And given that my hubby is in the job market again, I'm concerned whether or not I could afford to go to Lake Placid in 2008 now.

As for the #2 case: There are regions where ice skating competitions and (especially open competitions where there ARE adult skating events) are few and in between. Since AN *STILL* doesn't allow skaters in No-Test and Pre-Bronze FS skaters to compete, I take the stance that we should always give No-Test and Pre-Bronze FS the opportunity to compete and get competition experience.

I am forever thankful that I live in an area where it's unusually adult-skater friendly and there are quite a few avenues for me to compete if I wish to. In addition to finally meeting a LOT of wonderful fellow adult skaters on this board and other boards, I've gained invaluable experience thru my last competition at Sectionals in 2005 that I can take to Adults Nationals in 2008. When I finally do make it to AN, I now have some sort of a clue what to prepare for.

Let's allow the skaters who don't have such luxury the opportunity too. I'm sure that they would value the experience too, as I have. :D

daisies

04-18-2007, 02:24 PM

My only concerns about eliminating Adult Sectionals are two: 1) the cost of traveling for some of the competitors and 2) by taking out Sectionals, it eliminates a major avenue for No-Test and Pre-Bronze FS skaters to compete.

OK, here's the thing that's getting lost: "Sectionals" means the qualifying portion of the competition. The rest of the competition is an open, not a sectional. The open competitions can still exist -- in fact, they did exist before "sectionals" were instituted. There was the "West Coast Adult Open" and other similar competitions in the Midwest and East. There's no reason those competitions can't be held the way they were only several years ago. They just won't have the qualifying element.

sk8er1964

04-18-2007, 02:35 PM

Is it really that difficult to find clubs to host sectionals? Or is it that the USFS no longer wants to spend the money on the grants in light of possibly losing their tv contracts.

I do agree with Jazz on sectionals (including the open events) being a great avenue for adults who have never skated at an all adult competition to do so. I know there were a lot of new faces in Minneapolis this year - everyone that I talked with who were not "regulars" were thrilled at being to compete at the first all adult competition they had ever had a chance to participate in.

flo

04-18-2007, 03:08 PM

manleywoman

04-18-2007, 03:32 PM

Is it really that difficult to find clubs to host sectionals? Or is it that the USFS no longer wants to spend the money on the grants in light of possibly losing their tv contracts.

Yes and yes.

Team Arthritis

04-18-2007, 03:34 PM

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who work so hard to promote skating, especially for us adults. Its fascinating to watch this conversation, everyone trying to work out what is best for all. There is no one right answer which is why forums such as this are so healthy.

So well done skaters, committee members, those who can attend governing counsel, those who skate at nationals, those who skate on weeekends only but care, club officers, lurkers and posters.
Lyle

daisies

04-18-2007, 03:35 PM

So, the final rounds will be replaced by "championship rounds", and these will be composed of all age levels? Ok with me, it is a different event with all the age groups. I'd be for this or initial and finals with no championships, but not both.

Right -- the final rounds would be replaced by Championship rounds. There wouldn't be both. That's why there would be fewer events, not more.

If we were to keep sectionals AND institute Championship for Bronze and Silver, then there would be MORE events at AN. Which is why I am not for that scenario. If we add Championship for Bronze and Silver, we have to eliminate sectionals. Otherwise it's too much. JMHO!

flo

04-18-2007, 03:42 PM

Too much indeed. My head is spinning, and this does not even include interpretive!:lol:

InsideAxel

04-18-2007, 04:01 PM

I'm still not sure how I feel about eliminating Adult Sectionals. I guess I'll mull it over some more. However, based on what I've read, I'm not sure I agree with the proposed percentage-based selection process across the age groups. If Adult Sectionals were eliminated and the open events were used as qualifiers, wouldn't it be more equitable to select the field for the championship events by comparing the Total Segment Scores from the open events for all ages instead?

I agree with Frank. The Championship round should be based on the total scores from the QRs. Don't just go picking a certain percentage of each age group.

For instance, say four skaters in age group I score 33, 32, 31, and 30 points respectively. Now say the highest score in age group III is a 29. Just for illustation purposes, say only the top three (or some other percentage) of age group I gets to move on to the Championship round, you really don't have the best skaters, do you? I mean there is a 29 from age group III who is going to get to skate and a 30 from age group I that won't be skating. Since all these well-balanced rules came into effect this season, along with IJS, there's no reason not to go by the final scores. Base it on total scores so the best performances make the Championship round.

But I will go on record as saying I think Sectionals should stay as is.

Kelton

flo

04-18-2007, 04:07 PM

If you are using the actual scores, then how would this be done for events with multiple levels? How is the ch. pairs done now with different program times?

jazzpants

04-18-2007, 04:10 PM

But I will go on record as saying I think Sectionals should stay as is.Here here! I'm too confused as it is with the new rules... and I figured "If it ain't broke, why fix it?"

Michigansk8er

04-18-2007, 04:54 PM

As for time at AN, how about adding solo dance, championship events for bronze and silver, open events for pre-bronze, keeping the 20 minute warm up, and doing away with interp. (sk8er1964 runs and hides now)

I might have to run and hide with you, but an interesting idea. I can see Interp disappearing at some point, and think it's a good idea. Mind you, this would totally eliminate me from from ever competing again since interp is about it for me anymore, but that's ok. I'm constantly hearing that interp is a crap shoot, so wonder if it would really be missed? We could keep the 20 minute warm-up and possibly keep the days shorter that way. I'm undecided about pre-bronze and solo dance at this point, but would lean towards not adding them. How many entries do we have in these events at Sectionals?

TreSk8sAZ

04-18-2007, 05:06 PM

I might have to run and hide with you, but an interesting idea. I can see Interp disappearing at some point, and think it's a good idea. Mind you, this would totally eliminate me from from ever competing again since interp is about it for me anymore, but that's ok. I'm constantly hearing that interp is a crap shoot, so wonder if it would really be missed? We could keep the 20 minute warm-up and possibly keep the days shorter that way. I'm undecided about pre-bronze and solo dance at this point, but would lean towards not adding them. How many entries do we have in these events at Sectionals?

I'll be hiding with you both. I'm intruigued by this. Especially in light of the fact that National Showcase is in existence now. Essentially, it's seen as Nationals for interp (both light and dramatic). I know for a fact they have Adult and Masters interp there. Why not eliminate interp from ANs if that's the case? For many people who only do interp anyway, it's not like they'd be forced to spend money for yet another competition. However, I can see the down side to this as it's a mixed event, not an adult-only competition. Granted, I was signed up for both freeskate and interp before I got hurt (and this group of skaters WOULD be forced to go to another competition), but it's an interesting proposition.

Lutzlooploop

04-18-2007, 05:12 PM

One of the issues that hasn't been addressed relative to hosting Adult Nationals is the cost of bringing in officials, judges, etc from all over the Country. The costs of airfare, hotel, feeding these individuals etc is monumental. There is absolutely no common sense reason why qualified judges local to the venue of the event can't judge bronze, silver, gold and even master level adult skaters. I realize that there are rules in place which require equal sectional representation for a "National" competition, but if the concern is to try to make Adult Nationals more economical and streamlined, I think this should be an avenue to investigate as well. If LOC's could bring in qualified local officials, rather than having to fly people in, put them up, provide transport, etc, that may encourage more bids for the event, as a significant cost of putting on the event would be reduced. Just something to ponder....

I'm also curious as to where the information regarding a $50,000 grant to Oberstdorf to use IJS came from for "extra manpower and techology". As of a matter of fact the competition appeared to be extremly streamlined, and many individuals performed more than one function. I never saw "extra manpower or technology". Just curious what the source of that information was. Oberstdorf may have received a grant of some sort, but from what I understand it did not appear to be utilized with reference to the implemention of IJS.

TimDavidSkate

04-18-2007, 05:13 PM

I agree, if we eliminate interp at Nationals it will deff free up so many avenues at Nationals. Just move the interp to its own competition, so at least the adults can only focus on that instead of running around from freeskate to interps and vice versa.

Michigansk8er

04-18-2007, 05:25 PM

I'll be hiding with you both. I'm intruigued by this. Especially in light of the fact that National Showcase is in existence now. Essentially, it's seen as Nationals for interp (both light and dramatic). I know for a fact they have Adult and Masters interp there. Why not eliminate interp from ANs if that's the case? For many people who only do interp anyway, it's not like they'd be forced to spend money for yet another competition. However, I can see the down side to this as it's a mixed event, not an adult-only competition. Granted, I was signed up for both freeskate and interp before I got hurt (and this group of skaters WOULD be forced to go to another competition), but it's an interesting proposition.

I've done both too....but mostly because I was already there, so why not? I'm obviously out of the loop. I didn't realize there was a National Showcase. If the kids go there for interp, I can see adults doing the same, and it would give interpretive skaters a great option if it were eliminated from AN.

Hannahclear

04-18-2007, 05:26 PM

I definitely could stand to see interpretive disappear.

But whatever ends up happening, I can't wait for Lake Placid!

NoVa Sk8r

04-18-2007, 05:30 PM

I agree with Frank. The Championship round should be based on the total scores from the QRs. Don't just go picking a certain percentage of each age group.I think that's only a good idea if the same judges are on the panel. Skaters will be getting different PCS scores within the same event if different judges are used.

And to go on with the absurdity of some of the PCS marks, the PCS marks weren't even logical comparing differnt level events:

In Championshio Gold Men, Nick Chou and Gilbert Chang had higher PCS marks than Brooks Jones and Joe Radomile in Championship Masters Men. While Nick and Gilbert are lovely skaters, they are way below Brooks and Joe in *all* categories of the PCS.

Similarly, Ninotcka, who won Championship Gold Ladies, had higher PCS marks than Stephanie Cooke, who won Championship Masters Ladies. Heather Hilgar in Championship Gold Ladies had higher PCS marks than Beth Delano in Championship Masters Ladies. Huh??? :?? There is absolutely no comparison between these sets of skaters in terms of where their PCS marks should be. Furthermore, Heather’s PCS marks would have her ranked around 6th in Championship Masters Ladies!

This just goes to show you that IJS is *still* all relative, and that, in fact, there is no absolute meaning to the scores.

Taking from this example, I believe that ISU should use the top *combined* TSS (total segment scores) in determining who the top 6 are in the Grand Prix Final. I know, there are complications with this rationale, but it brings up the point that someone like Kimmie skated against tough fields (but still had high TSS scores) whereas some of the skaters who made it to the final had relatively low scores.

Similarly, right now for the QRs, it depends on who you are skating against. If you are unfortunate to be in a group with skaters who have always made it to the FR, then your chances of qualifying are lower.

So using the top TSS does not make sense to me.
There is always a luck of the draw element, and I think that is fine.

manleywoman

04-18-2007, 05:31 PM

I'm also curious as to where the information regarding a $50,000 grant to Oberstdorf to use IJS came from for "extra manpower and techology". As of a matter of fact the competition appeared to me to be extremly streamlined, and many individuals performed more than one function. I never saw "extra manpower or technology". Just curious what the source of that information was.

The source was Ed Mann at the adult meeting at ANs. When Century Leigh asked the question as to how O'Dorf managed to get the scores up so quickly on the boards while the competitors were sitting in the K&C, Ed Mann responded that they had an extra $50,000 that we don't have, which allows for way more manpower and technology.

Not saying he was right, as one person already told me they think that he was referring to other internationals and not adult ones, but that's what he said at the meeting.

daisies

04-18-2007, 05:32 PM

I've done both too....but mostly because I was already there, so why not? I'm obviously out of the loop. I didn't realize there was a National Showcase. If the kids go there for interp, I can see adults doing the same, and it would give interpretive skaters a great option if it were eliminated from AN.

You can't just enter National Showcase, you have to qualify. How? By placing in the top four in a sanctioned artistic event -- of which AN Interp is one.

Interp is a cash cow. It's popular. It's fun. And it's also a way to keep AN all-inclusive, since not everyone does FS, pairs or dance.

Regarding using the top scores to qualify for Championship, the only way that's doable is to ensure the exact same panel judges every event across the board. And that's not gonna happen. BTW, standard track regionals doesn't use the top scores, it uses the top placers for final round -- for the exact same reason.

manleywoman

04-18-2007, 05:41 PM

You can't just enter National Showcase, you have to qualify. How? By placing in the top four in a sanctioned artistic event -- of which AN Interp is one.

Interp is a cash cow. It's popular. It's fun. And it's also a way to keep AN all-inclusive, since not everyone does FS, pairs or dance.

Regarding using the top scores to qualify for Championship, the only way that's doable is to ensure the exact same panel judges every event across the board. And that's not gonna happen. BTW, standard track regionals doesn't use the top scores, it uses the top placers for final round -- for the exact same reason.

ITA with everything you said Daisies. Though I'd be interested to see the numbers on how many people would enter Solo Dance vs Interp if given the option. I think Interp would still be the higher draw.

InsideAxel

04-18-2007, 06:07 PM

I think that's only a good idea if the same judges are on the panel. Skaters will be getting different PCS scores within the same event if different judges are used...So using the top TSS does not make sense to me.

All the more reason to leave it as is.

Kelton

FrankR

04-18-2007, 06:26 PM

Regarding using the top scores to qualify for Championship, the only way that's doable is to ensure the exact same panel judges every event across the board. And that's not gonna happen. BTW, standard track regionals doesn't use the top scores, it uses the top placers for final round -- for the exact same reason.

I suppose where I am most uncomfortable with what has been proposed thus far is the idea that the number of qualifying spots per age class should based on something that is totally out of the control of the participants in any given event....attendance. In my age class (this year they lumped Gold Men's classes I and II together) there were only two entrants in my open event. If I'm interpreting the "percentage rule" correctly (see post #30 in this thread), only the first place finisher in the group would qualify because there are only two of us. Meanwhile, for classes II and III, there were five or six entrants this year. Applying the proposed "percentage rule" (again this is based on my interpretation of what's been posted) this group would have two or three qualifying spots for the championship event. If I have applied this proposed rule correctly (again I'm not sure so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) then I would have less of a chance of qualifying for the championship solely because fewer people signed up for my event? That would be something I can't help in the least and doesn't seem fair to me. If open events are used as qualifiers for the championship events, then all of the age groups should be offered the same number of spots. Why should one group of skaters be penalized just because nobody else showed up to skate?

Another problem I see with this revised qualifying procedure is in the case where someone who had qualified for a championship event decides to pass on skating in the championship round. Now you have as many as five (one per age class) skaters who barely missed qualifying through their open events waiting in the wings. To whom do you offer that now vacant spot in the championship round?

As with any proposed change, this one is going to take a lot of work and a lot of thought. I'm not decidedly against or decidedly for keeping Adult sectionals at the moment. However, I think I'm leaning towards keeping sectionals until I see a more detailed qualifying procedure. There are too many uncertainties at the moment for me to really jump on board removing sectionals. That's just my two cents.

dcden

04-18-2007, 06:36 PM

I'm in agreement with FrankR, InsideAxel, Nova, and Jazzpants. There's too many what-if scenarios for me to feel comfortable with the qualify-at-Nationals idea. Qualifying out of age group events just sounds like it won't work for the reasons stated above.

sk8er1964

04-18-2007, 07:14 PM

You can't just enter National Showcase, you have to qualify. How? By placing in the top four in a sanctioned artistic event -- of which AN Interp is one.

I received an invite a couple of years ago because I medaled in a local event in a group of four. It's pretty simple to get an invite - it's not like there are local competitions with groups of 11 adults trying to be in the top four at a single event like AN.

ITA with everything you said Daisies. Though I'd be interested to see the numbers on how many people would enter Solo Dance vs Interp if given the option. I think Interp would still be the higher draw.

I would definitely consider doing a solo dance. I did interp at AN once - it was interesting. While I would never rule out doing it again, it's not a priority for me. IMO, and I'm going to offend a lot of people here, it's not, ummm, serious skating - and serious skating is what should be at AN. However, it's not going to kill me if it remains either, because I just don't care that much about interp. ;)

I'm in agreement with FrankR, InsideAxel, Nova, and Jazzpants. There's too many what-if scenarios for me to feel comfortable with the qualify-at-Nationals idea. Qualifying out of age group events just sounds like it won't work for the reasons stated above.

ITA with you. While I like sectionals, it wouldn't kill me if they were eliminated. However, it sounds like folks are putting the cart before the horse a bit here. It would be nice if the details were hammered out before it goes any further.

One more thing -- it we were to go to a qualifying at AN, how about a short program with required elements for qualifying, then the regular "long" program for the final round? Less time, and you level the playing field with the required elements - and keep the required elements to the test requirements so as to not leave anyone out. (It could be modified for V's that cannot do axels and multi-revolutional jumps.)

daisies

04-18-2007, 07:30 PM

IMO, and I'm going to offend a lot of people here, it's not, ummm, serious skating - and serious skating is what should be at AN.
Well, I'm one of the offended.

Would you please define "serious"?

Stormy

04-18-2007, 07:40 PM

Well, I'm one of the offended.

Would you please define "serious"?

Maybe she meant as opposed to competing with a regular program. Interp is more for "fun", IMO.

The short and long programs to qualify at ANs are an interesting idea, but I know I'd HATE that. One program is enough for me! Plus, training two programs would mean more practice time, which a lot of adults have limited time as it is.

sk8er1964

04-18-2007, 07:54 PM

Maybe she meant as opposed to competing with a regular program. Interp is more for "fun", IMO.

That's mostly what I mean. Interp to me is show skating - it's what people do in ice shows and the like. It's entertainment, not necessarily athleticism. Kind of like Stars on Ice or the old professional worlds versus the US Nationals or standard worlds. I shudder at all the photos of adults on the USFS website in animal costumes or other over the top weird garb ( which doesn't translate well as something legitimate in photos) when there are so many of us who work so hard to be taken seriously in our sport. However, as I said before, it is no skin off my nose if interp remains a part of AN. It's just a suggestion of fluff to get rid of if we need more time for traditional events.

doubletoe

04-18-2007, 08:24 PM

Don't forget that for some people, the Interpretive events are really the only option. For example, there are some masters level skaters who, due to some physical limitation, can no longer do doubles or skate a longer program. I know several serious Gold/Masters skaters who were in that predicament this year, and if they hadn't been able to compete in Interpretive, I know they would have been really depressed about it. And by the way, they kicked butt in interpretive!

icedancer2

04-18-2007, 08:24 PM

I would definitely consider doing a solo dance. I did interp at AN once - it was interesting. While I would never rule out doing it again, it's not a priority for me. IMO, and I'm going to offend a lot of people here, it's not, ummm, serious skating - and serious skating is what should be at AN. However, it's not going to kill me if it remains either, because I just don't care that much about interp. ;)

And here I was offended because I thought what you said was that solo dance wasn't real skating!!!

One thing is certain: people who compete take it pretty seriously!!:D

doubletoe

04-18-2007, 08:37 PM

I think that's only a good idea if the same judges are on the panel. Skaters will be getting different PCS scores within the same event if different judges are used.

That's absolutely right. And although the technical scores are assumed to be much more standardized, there can still be a major difference in technical scores depending on who the technical controller is. For example, the TC for the Gold Ladies III QR's was generous with counting spiral sequence features and giving the levels. She also downgraded only a few of the toeloops in the competition. But we had a different TC for Gold III FR and Championship Gold (the same person for both of these later events) and she downgraded twice as many toeloops for the same skaters. She also gave a Level 1 to a spiral sequence that had gotten a Level 3 under the QR TS (even though it was by the same skater and executed with the same quality). When you add up all of those little differences it can amount to some significant points.

mdvask8r

04-18-2007, 08:55 PM

Maybe this has been suggested before???
Make interps qualify at sectionals. This would hopefully boost attendance at sectionals AND cut down on the icetime required for so many interps at AN. The saved time could go to solo dance.

mikawendy

04-18-2007, 09:24 PM

The short and long programs to qualify at ANs are an interesting idea, but I know I'd HATE that. One program is enough for me! Plus, training two programs would mean more practice time, which a lot of adults have limited time as it is.

...and two programs would mean more costs in terms of cutting music (for those who don't cut their own), choreography, and clothing...

icedancer2

04-18-2007, 10:53 PM

...and two programs would mean more costs in terms of cutting music (for those who don't cut their own), choreography, and clothing...

It just occured to me withi this statement that the dancers have to do two compulsory dances AND and OD (granted they don't have to cut the music for the compulsories, but still there are getting those dances perfect and choreographing beginnings and endings to them...) and most have different costumes for each compulsory and then another costume for the OD, and this is for two people.

In the Centennial, silver and Bronze events, I believe they have to do 4 compulsories, often with a costume change...

Granted, the Pre-Gold, Gold and Championship groups don't have a FD like the standard skaters do, but they still have more skating and more costumes than the singles skaters. Why is that? I wonder if this is parat of the reason we see less dancers and also see the need for solo dance. I can't imagine travelling all that way and spending all of that money just to do one dance. How about Pr0Am? That would be fun...

I think the singles skaters should have to do both a short and a long, just like in standard Nationals.

I notice there are no dance teams on this board. I wonder why (except for you and Robert, Anabel) -- what board are they frequenting - (or are they out there trying to earn enough money to do all of their stuff???

More late-evening ramblings from this frustrated ice-dancer...:giveup:

vesperholly

04-18-2007, 11:50 PM

I would like to see Championship Bronze and Silver, but I'd prefer to keep Sectionals if it came down to an either/or. Even though the non-Championships are technically part of the open competition, I think the prestige of being linked with a USFSA competition draws more people. I know I certainly prefer to compete at an open event held in conjunction with Sectionals than at XYZ Adult Open. Plus, it draws in adult skaters in No Test and Pre-Bronze, and I personally get really inspired seeing all the awesome skaters in the Championship round.

I'm not a big fan of qualifying at ANs for non-Championship rounds (that is what we're talking about, yes?).

I don't have much opinions on it all, seeing as I'm the only competitive adult skater in my club and there are very few of us in my neck of the woods.

JulieN

04-19-2007, 12:04 AM

I notice there are no dance teams on this board. I wonder why (except for you and Robert, Anabel) -- what board are they frequenting - (or are they out there trying to earn enough money to do all of their stuff???

Most of the ice dancers are on the Ice Dancers Online Yahoo Groups (http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/icedancers/).

I've competed at Adult Nationals 3 times in dance and once in FS. Never competed in Interp. I would put Solo Dance and Interp in pretty much the same category and do not necessarily favor one over the other. However, I would favor both of these over the 20 minute warm-up. Again, it all comes down to what is the goal of Adult Nationals??? If it is to mimic the standard track, then sure, get rid of Interp and stick with the 20 minute warm-up and then we can shorten it to 3 days. If it's to be as inclusive as possible, then add solo dance, pre-bronze FS, keep interp and eliminate the 20 minute warm-up. Tough decisions...

I'm also for eliminating the qualifying events at Sectionals, and just have it all at Nationals (as described by manleywoman and daisies). Personally, I would rather do it all at one competition than to have to travel to two separate competitions to compete in Championship. Selfishly speaking, I'm on a synchro team and already travel 2 or 3 times per year with the team to compete -- mostly Dec thru Feb.

In 2004, my dance partner and I entered Championship Dance. But when we found out there were 5 teams at Midwesterns, and knowing that we would likely be the 5th place team, we withdrew. It was a real bummer because it was the only time when there were actually more than 4 Championship dance teams at any Sectionals. Since there's no fill-up rule, we would not qualify as the 5th place team even though the other sections had fewer than 4 teams. We figured we'd just save the time and money....

ETA I'm also for Championship rounds for Bronze & Silver. Wow... so many issues!!!

Thin-Ice

04-19-2007, 03:46 AM

ITA about the 20-minute warmup as well. It's not practice ice, it's "warmup" ice ... to get a feel for the ice, to get your body moving, to figure out where you are when you come out of spins, where the judges are, where the audience is. IMO the 20-minute is more valuable than paid practice ice.

I'm in favor of eliminating sectionals and instituting Bronze and Silver Championship rounds, and IMO it will actually reduce the number of events at AN. Here's why:

When you use the open events as qualifiers, which is what is being proposed, you won't have separate final rounds for, say, Bronze Ladies II, Bronze Ladies III and Bronze Ladies IV ... you will have ONE final round, the Championship round, with skaters from all age groups who qualified out of their age-separated open events. For ladies, there will be four FS championship rounds -- Bronze, Silver, Gold and Masters. Four, period. Under the current system, there are potentially about three or so Bronze final rounds, three or so Silver final rounds, etc.

Doing it this way will really streamline it, potentially opening up time not only for solo dance but to accommodate what hopefully will be larger open events.

Would the Open events for Gold and Masters also be the qualifiers for their Championship rounds? Or would there still be Gold I, Gold II, Gold III, Gold IV AND Championship Gold?

And one of the reasons I favor keeping Sectionals is because if there's one BIG event in each section, more skaters are likely to put that on their calendar and attend, than if there are a couple of adult open events. Maybe it's a prestige thing, i.e. it sounds better to be the Eastern Adult Sectional Bronze II Champion than the Peach Classic Bronze II Champion.. which sounds like just another competition (which we all know it is most definitely NOT "just another competition"!). And I like the idea of having a place for the No-Test and Pre-Bronze skaters to see the really great adult skaters compete in Gold and Masters Championships.. so they can be inspired and aspire to that level of greatness.

By the way, Interp is not JUST people in funny costumes. It is also an outlet for people who for one reason or another cannot do some of the more technical elements required in or to be competitive in the technical events.

Take a look at the Artistic/Dramatic events if you don't want to see Charlie Brown and his(her) kite (which was a wonderfully entertaining program) or someone dressed up as an animal.

Daisies' "Man of La Mancha" program from a couple years ago was SERIOUS skating, even though there were no double jumps. Her skates were so quiet you could not hear them even if you were standing right by the boards! If that's not serious skating, I don't know what is. (When I grow up -- not that THAT is ever likely to happen -- I want to skate just like Daisies -- and that's not likely to ever happen either.)

Thin-Ice

04-19-2007, 04:14 AM

By the way, many of us have discussed how judges mark adult during tests, whether adult or standard track tests. Do you think it would be possible to change the judges requirements to have trial judge at least one or two adult tests for them to achieve the next appointment?

I know it would be impossible to require all the judges currently at the top levels go back and actually see adults testing. But do you think it would be helpful to have judges see adults actually testing? Singles/Pairs judges are required to trial judge pairs to achieve an appointment, and in many cases those tests are "hard to find", but very necessary, since the judges are likely to be called on to judge pairs at SOME point in their judging careers. Chances are also pretty good judges will also be called on to judge adults sometime, somewhere.. but they may never have actually seen an adult test before they are called on to make a binding decision that affects the skater who is testing.

sk8er1964

04-19-2007, 08:42 AM

flo

04-19-2007, 09:08 AM

"I did interp at AN once - it was interesting. While I would never rule out doing it again, it's not a priority for me. IMO, and I'm going to offend a lot of people here, it's not, ummm, serious skating - and serious skating is what should be at AN. However, it's not going to kill me if it remains either, because I just don't care that much about interp."

I've never had an interpretive program that was "fluff" or "non serious" skating. It may be such for some skaters, and I'm not a fan of animals, food products, or costume contests on the ice, but interpretive offers what fs does not - an opportunity to SKATE! With the endless progression of rules and guidelines and structure of the fs programs, there's little room for skating. The fs programs are all beginning to look alike. I've competed in fs, pairs and interp and medaled in all events, and a quality interpretive is much more of a challenge. I would be for qualifying interp. What I liked about the initial and final rounds of interp was that at the final rounds you could skate and compete with the quality interp programs and skaters.

I've always been for restricting adult interp to silver and gold levels and have the master's interp for master's skaters.

skaternum

04-19-2007, 09:37 AM

Interp to me is show skating - it's what people do in ice shows and the like. It's entertainment, not necessarily athleticism.YOU try doing jumps and spins and spirals with your arms tied around you in a straightjacket! :P

Whoever said Interp is a cash cow was right. No final rounds, usually an "add-on" event for skaters already there, doesn't require the same number of high level judges, etc. Granted, there are some LAME interps out there, but there are also some very creative and athletic interp programs out there.

MusicSkateFan

04-19-2007, 09:42 AM

Just going to play Devil's advocate here...:twisted: :twisted:

It seems there are quite a few that would ALMOST favor a 100% Championship Adult Nats and leave the open events for sectionals. IMHO, I would not like this but when you start talking about quals for interp and a silver/bronze championship.....would it not be easier to make AN 100% championship.....

I would be bummed about it because I would probably not be able to Qual but it would be something to shoot for!

just a thought

As far as interp.....I dont mind it.....I am not a big fan of Drag on Ice.....There are other events in the world for Drag on Ice. I got a good chuckle out of some of the Drag interps but IMHO I think it cheapens our event. JUST my opinion!

TimDavidSkate

04-19-2007, 10:13 AM

For me I dont know what the big deal about dressing up like a frog or a cat and prancing around for 1 minute and 40 seconds and it costs and additional $80. I dont see any challenge in that :giveup: sorry
{I dont mind the artistic/dramatic portion though}

I could live without it. It makes adult nationals much more prestige when you dont see bulls and cattles running around. It would really make good use of AN for longer warmup times and practices.

Like other said, if there was a showcase competition, why dont they add a day or so for adults since its a "cashcow"

But whatever happens happens, at least somebody voiced out their opinion.

TimDavidSkate

04-19-2007, 10:15 AM

I would be bummed about it because I would probably not be able to Qual but it would be something to shoot for!
just a thought

Dont be hard on yourself, its anybody's game really. The results are always unpredictable. Just as long as you have a lutz and a flying spin at silver (for men at least), youre in good standings, of course an axel does help too.

Team Arthritis

04-19-2007, 10:31 AM

I vote Skaternum's "Crazy" the best Interp I've ever seen - you need to yootoob it.
Lyle

Mrs Redboots

04-19-2007, 10:37 AM

It just occured to me withi this statement that the dancers have to do two compulsory dances AND and OD (granted they don't have to cut the music for the compulsories, but still there are getting those dances perfect and choreographing beginnings and endings to them...) and most have different costumes for each compulsory and then another costume for the OD, and this is for two people.

In the UK, we do have solo dance at our Adult Championships. The solo dancers, like the couples, have to do two compulsory dances and a free dance. At least, that has been the case so far - the requirements did vary the first two years, but stabilised. They are now threatening to make the compulsory and free dances two separate championships, as though it were just a regular Open, which most people I know are furious about.

At the Adult Championships there is just one "Showcase" class for skaters of all ages and abilities, which isn't usually that well patronised.

In the Centennial, silver and Bronze events, I believe they have to do 4 compulsories, often with a costume change...As we do at the Mountain Cup. I usually wear the same dress for each round, but change between rounds. There usually isn't time to change between dances unless you have a big class. Sometimes in the UK they schedule things so everybody does their first dance, going from Elementary to Masters, then everybody does their second, and so on, giving people time to change if they wish. Not everybody does wish - some people just have one "dance frock" that does for everything; others start off that way and gradually amass a collection.

I think many ice dancers are on the Yahoo group, which I was on for a bit but it was too US-oriented for my needs.

jazzpants

04-19-2007, 12:20 PM

For me I dont know what the big deal about dressing up like a frog or a cat and prancing around for 1 minute and 40 seconds and it costs and additional $80. I dont see any challenge in that :giveup: Try b/c you're having FUN!?!?! Haven't you ever been comedic??? 8O You're missing out if you haven't!!! There's a certain freedom that comes from being able to say "Hey, I look goofy... and I don't give a damn about it!" :twisted:

Seriously, skating in big bulky costumes and doing jumps and spins with it is a challenge in adjusting your center of mass/gravity. Try practicing in a fat suit in private and you'll see what I mean.

As far as interp.....I dont mind it.....I am not a big fan of Drag on Ice.....There are other events in the world for Drag on Ice. I got a good chuckle out of some of the Drag interps but IMHO I think it cheapens our event. JUST my opinion!Three words: "Jay" and "Michelle Kwan." Still my All Time Favorite Interp EVER, hands down :bow: and I'm not just saying it b/c Jay's my coach either. I know plenty of people that still remember the number and asks me if "Michelle Kwan" is going to make a comeback. :lol:

I've always been for restricting adult interp to silver and gold levels and have the master's interp for master's skaters.I humbly disagree with you on this. Bronze skaters have tested up enough and earned their full right to go to AN and do Interp along with the other level skaters. Then again, I've always been a firm believer in giving lower level skaters the exposure (or at least a "taste") of what the upper level skaters are doing so that they know what they're in for when they get to play with the "big girls" in Champ Adult Gold and Champ Masters. Besides, some of the Bronze level skaters on interps are just as good as the Silver skaters. And there are some really good Bronze numbers out there in both the comedic and A/D categories out there.

And I like the idea of having a place for the No-Test and Pre-Bronze skaters to see the really great adult skaters compete in Gold and Masters Championships.. so they can be inspired and aspire to that level of greatness.That was my point about keeping Sectionals. We like being able to watch the Gold and Masters skaters in action striving to qualify for Nationals, knowing that someday we CAN strive for that greatness. I am "content" and "happy" at being able to qualify for AN. My next big goal is to someday compete at Champ Adult Gold and qualify for Nationals and skate as well as doubletoe or FrankR here!!! :bow:

By the way, Interp is not JUST people in funny costumes. It is also an outlet for people who for one reason or another cannot do some of the more technical elements required in or to be competitive in the technical events.

Take a look at the Artistic/Dramatic events if you don't want to see Charlie Brown and his(her) kite (which was a wonderfully entertaining program) or someone dressed up as an animal.Yup! Agreed. And one of my memorable ones in the "lights" is someone doing a Michael Jackson interp. I like THAT number!!!

Daisies' "Man of La Mancha" program from a couple years ago was SERIOUS skating, even though there were no double jumps. Her skates were so quiet you could not hear them even if you were standing right by the boards! If that's not serious skating, I don't know what is. (When I grow up -- not that THAT is ever likely to happen -- I want to skate just like Daisies -- and that's not likely to ever happen either.)We ALL want to skate like daisies when we grow up, Thin-Ice! We all do!!! :bow: :lol:

I vote Skaternum's "Crazy" the best Interp I've ever seen - you need to yootoob it.That's one of my other fave interp numbers based on the pictures and the rave reviews I've read here. Yes, skaternum... you definitely need to put it on YouTube so I can see what the hoopla's about for myself. :lol:

flo

04-19-2007, 12:31 PM

Hi,
You're right jazz, some of the bronze skaters are as good as the silver skaters. What we were hoping when this was proposed years ago was that it would cut out the majority of the non-skating freak show programs and encourage people to move up. At that time there was an abundance of bronze skaters. Also, another reason for the proposed change was to facilitate gold skaters not having to compete with master's skaters.

Terri C

04-19-2007, 12:33 PM

I've always been for restricting adult interp to silver and gold levels and have the master's interp for master's skaters.

Why is this?? What about a Pre Bronze freestyler who is working on Silver moves and in some cases, could have very well passed them?
I still do not buy into the Championship Bronze and Silver event proposal.
It has been said too many times that there is not enough ice time to include Pre Bronze freeskate (the REAL reason is that it's assumed that Pre Bronzers do not know how to skate) and this year's AN was a stretch both days with the IJS being utilized for Gold and Masters events.
I'm still of the thinking that this is a idea being proposed to generate more money and people for Sectionals. Am I right about this??

flo

04-19-2007, 12:44 PM

Terri C

04-19-2007, 12:48 PM

Terrie C, for the reasons already mentioned - and a cry from the judges that they didn't want "Judge all that non-skating". It doesn't matter what moves test anyone is working on, you still need to be bronze fs to compete.

Again, we wanted to see a higher quality of skating, reduce numbers, and have gold skaters not compete with Master's skaters.

You didn't read the entire question!!!
How can you call it "non skating" if the skater passed Silver moves, but for whatever reason is at Pre Bronze on the freestyle end of things?
By the way, who are you reffering to as "we?"

jazzpants

04-19-2007, 01:07 PM

Terrie C, for the reasons already mentioned - and a cry from the judges that they didn't want "Judge all that non-skating". It doesn't matter what moves test anyone is working on, you still need to be bronze fs to compete.

To which Terri C replied...

You didn't read the entire question!!!
How can you call it "non skating" if the skater passed Silver moves, but for whatever reason is at Pre Bronze on the freestyle end of things?Or for that matter, someone who made it to AN thru passing the requisite ice dance track and is doing Interp? ;)

phoenix

04-19-2007, 01:28 PM

Or for that matter, someone who made it to AN thru passing the requisite ice dance track and is doing Interp? ;)

I did that this year. I had to skate masters interp (I did A/D, not a great fan of the comedy either) because of my dance test level. I was SO outclassed by those girls, I went back to my hotel & had a serious pondering session as to whether I should quit skating. It was NOT a level playing field, by any stretch of the imagination & I was a bit embarassed to be out there with them. They were fabulous....I was not.

I would be very happy to see a more separated field for interp, and keep the masters skaters in their own group. I may be a pre-gold dancer, but I'm still an *adult* pre-gold dancer. Anyone who thinks it shouldn't matter should watch my event when it comes up on icenetwork.

Of course, if they add in solo dance, then that would be my event of choice, at which point I should at least look like I belong with my group! I only did interp because it was my only option & I wanted to be a part of AN.

flo

04-19-2007, 01:40 PM

Terri,
I did indeed read everything. The example skater was your's not mine. I'm not addressing a particular situation, we could have zillions. In your example, that skater with only a pre-bronze fs, with or without silver moves could not enter.

"We" refers to the last working group on interpretive, when the judges wanted it eliminated it because of "all the non-skating programs". This is not a new problem, it's been with us for 13 years.

daisies

04-19-2007, 01:41 PM

Would the Open events for Gold and Masters also be the qualifiers for their Championship rounds? Or would there still be Gold I, Gold II, Gold III, Gold IV AND Championship Gold?

There would be initial rounds of Gold I, Gold II, Gold II, Gold IV .... who all would compete to qualify for Championship Gold.

Daisies' "Man of La Mancha" program from a couple years ago was SERIOUS skating, even though there were no double jumps. Her skates were so quiet you could not hear them even if you were standing right by the boards! If that's not serious skating, I don't know what is. (When I grow up -- not that THAT is ever likely to happen -- I want to skate just like Daisies -- and that's not likely to ever happen either.)

Awww!!! Thank you so much for that compliment, Thin-Ice. It really means a lot! :)

ETA:

We ALL want to skate like daisies when we grow up, Thin-Ice! We all do!!! :bow: :lol:

More awwww! THANK YOU jazzpants! :)

NoVa Sk8r

04-19-2007, 02:33 PM

"We" refers to the last working group on interpretive, when the judges wanted it eliminated it because of "all the non-skating programs". This is not a new problem, it's been with us for 13 years.Not to menton the high-level judge who told me that she would never go back to Adult Nats after seeing some of those interp programs (I didn't get to watch any of the interp numbers, so I cannot weigh in). Or the technical specialist who was "appalled" at what was seen. The specialist even had the audacity to say that a ladies V interp group was reminiscent of commercials involving feminine hygiene products! 8O

TimDavidSkate

04-19-2007, 02:37 PM

Not to menton the high-level judge who told me that she would never go back to Adult Nats after seeing some of those interp programs (I didn't get to watch any of the interp numbers, so I cannot weigh in). Or the technical specialist who was "appalled" at what was seen. The specialist even had the audacity to say that a ladies V interp group was reminiscent of commercials involving feminine hygiene products! 8O

8O
hahaha, like this one?
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n24/TimDsk8/200.jpg

manleywoman

04-19-2007, 02:40 PM

Debbie S

04-19-2007, 02:43 PM

What we were hoping when this was proposed years ago was that it would cut out the majority of the non-skating freak show programs and encourage people to move up. At that time there was an abundance of bronze skaters. So are you saying that "the majority of the non-skating freak show programs" were done by Bronze skaters? Well, I wasn't around in skating 13 years ago, but I've seen a fair number of Interp events at comps and I do not think Bronze skaters have a monopoly on the "non-skating freak show" genre. Meaning that I've seen Bronze and Silver skaters do serious, beautiful programs and I've seen both Bronze and Silver skaters do gimmicky-type programs. And if the original concern was to get gimmicky-Interp Bronze skaters to move up to Silver by restricting eligibility for Interp events, then theoretically all that would do is get them to test up in FS and the "freak show programs" would just be moved along with them.

I'm offended at the suggestion that Bronze skaters are somehow not capable of skating a good Interp program (and the judgment of good vs non-skating is of course, highly subjective and variable). As Jazzpants said, Bronze skaters have earned their way to AN - I think to restrict them from one of the skating events is unfair and would also result in decreased revenue for the LOC and USFSA.

I do agree with the idea of separating Masters skaters from Gold - I'm trying to think of how that could be done, though. I suppose there could be separate Interp groups for each of the skating levels, but then that could be a scheduling nightmare and also cause problems with filling out the groups, esp when you divide the artistic vs. comedy programs. And then where do you put the skaters that have not yet passed Bronze FS but have passed the required dance tests to do Interp?

At this time, I'll go on record and oppose the Champ Bronze and Silver proposal. I do think it would lead to sandbagging, and given that skaters in most of the age groups at those levels have to qualify for a final round at AN anyway, I think a Champ event is unnecessary.

phoenix

04-19-2007, 02:57 PM

And then where do you put the skaters that have not yet passed Bronze FS but have passed the required dance tests to do Interp?

That's me. :frus:

flutzilla1

04-19-2007, 03:02 PM

Also, another reason for the proposed change was to facilitate gold skaters not having to compete with master's skaters.

I don't know if I agree with this, as it would not be fair to all the Bronze skaters who already have to skate against Silver level competitors that are mixed in with their Interp group. If this was done, regular Interp should be broken up between Bronze and Silver too.

flutzilla1

04-19-2007, 03:03 PM

So are you saying that "the majority of the non-skating freak show programs" were done by Bronze skaters? Well, I wasn't around in skating 13 years ago, but I've seen a fair number of Interp events at comps and I do not think Bronze skaters have a monopoly on the "non-skating freak show" genre. Meaning that I've seen Bronze and Silver skaters do serious, beautiful programs and I've seen both Bronze and Silver skaters do gimmicky-type programs. And if the original concern was to get gimmicky-Interp Bronze skaters to move up to Silver by restricting eligibility for Interp events, then theoretically all that would do is get them to test up in FS and the "freak show programs" would just be moved along with them.

I'm offended at the suggestion that Bronze skaters are somehow not capable of skating a good Interp program (and the judgment of good vs non-skating is of course, highly subjective and variable). As Jazzpants said, Bronze skaters have earned their way to AN - I think to restrict them from one of the skating events is unfair and would also result in decreased revenue for the LOC and USFSA..

As a Bronze level skater who has done AN Interp events twice (and the only Bronze level skater on the podium at one of them, I am very proud to say), I agree 1000%.

flo

04-19-2007, 03:14 PM

Ok guys: general here - Silver test skaters would have a higher level of skating than bronze. Read the "general" no insults, just have to draw the line somewhere. Bronze skaters are wonderful!

daisies

04-19-2007, 03:19 PM

Not to menton the high-level judge who told me that she would never go back to Adult Nats after seeing some of those interp programs (I didn't get to watch any of the interp numbers, so I cannot weigh in). Or the technical specialist who was "appalled" at what was seen. The specialist even had the audacity to say that a ladies V interp group was reminiscent of commercials involving feminine hygiene products! 8O

The problem then is with those officials, not the skaters. I'm appalled that any official would have such an elitist attitude. If they don't want to come back to AN, good riddance.

Michigansk8er

04-19-2007, 04:29 PM

I can't imagine travelling all that way and spending all of that money just to do one dance. How about Pr0Am? That would be fun...

I think the singles skaters should have to do both a short and a long, just like in standard Nationals.

Speaking of Pro-Am, I am currently lobbying for it to be added to some of the adult only competitions (Wyandotte and Buckeye to be specific). It might be a way to see how it goes, and gauge the interest among adult skaters. One interesting point that was made when I initially suggested this to one of the competitions was that there was minimal interest in solo dance, at best, so they wondered if there would be any interest in a Pro-Am event. That being said, I wonder how much interest there would be in solo dance at AN? I would like to know if anyone would be interested in Pro-Am dance events, though. Both competitions will entertain the idea if I can round up some interest.

I like the idea of a short and long program. I'd rather work on a short and long than long and interp. OK, I won't be working on either, but it's an interesting idea.

jazzpants

04-19-2007, 04:45 PM

Not to menton the high-level judge who told me that she would never go back to Adult Nats after seeing some of those interp programs (I didn't get to watch any of the interp numbers, so I cannot weigh in). Or the technical specialist who was "appalled" at what was seen. The specialist even had the audacity to say that a ladies V interp group was reminiscent of commercials involving feminine hygiene products! 8OTo those officials... I say "GOOD RIDDANCE!!!" and "Don't let the door hit 'ya in the fanny!!!" :twisted: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/images/smilies/kickass1.gif (And we'll even send them this as a parting gift too!!!) :P

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n24/TimDsk8/200.jpg

:twisted:

phoenix

04-19-2007, 04:47 PM

How about this: drop comedy interp, and add a Solo Compulsory Dance/Original Dance event. Lake Placid did this last year & several local comps in my area followed suit. You do 1 compulsory & then a solo Original dance to whatever the specified rhythm is for that year.

It will encourage dancers to compete even if they don't have a partner, and make it more fun/interesting/worth the trip than just doing one compulsory. (though I think most solo dance comps would do 2 compulsories & combine the scores)

Personally I'd be more likely to do a solo dance event than pro-am, unless the event was close enough to not have to pay for my coach's trip....adds a lot to the expense. Great to have them there to put you out if you can afford it, but if you can't... or your coach is female & you're female...or your coach doesn't skate anymore....again limiting who can compete in the event.

jazzpants

04-19-2007, 05:07 PM

My preference:

Drop the Championship Bronze and Silver FS event proposal, keep Sectionals, interp and Championship events the way it is and just add solo dance. I still think Pre-Bronze at AN is a better cash cow, but short of pushing for that, I would like to see solo dance event b/c not everyone can find a partner and will appease to those judge that want to see "real skating."

To me, it's just easier to implement those items in. Less "what ifs"....

Michigansk8er

04-19-2007, 05:26 PM

I really don't see Pro-Am at AN, but would like to see it offered at adult competitions around the country. I'm guessing if you have a female coach, or a guy has a male coach, that you could find someone to partner with. I know VanCamp in Michigan is offering it for the first time this year, but adults will have to compete against the kids. Totally off the topic of this thread, but I think it sounds like fun.

flo

04-19-2007, 05:35 PM

jazzpants

04-19-2007, 07:07 PM

Interp is a very difficult event to judge. I clearly did not say, and the intent of the former proposal was not to imply that bronze level skaters could not put out a decent interp. But yes, Debbie, I have been involved for a while and my thoughts are based on my experience. I've competed in 10 interps at nationals and have placed in the top 5 in 9 of them - so I've seen lots and lots of interps at nationals. The quality of the programs improves with the quality of the skaters. That's not rocket science. There will always be the fluff program at any level, but I can honestly say that the majority of poorer quality programs have come from poorer quality skaters.But eliminating Bronze level skaters from Interp is NOT gonna solve the problem. Let's face it - you will always have poorer quality skaters across the boards regardless of levels. It's better to have those lower level skaters learn from the experience by placing them lower and having their "hunger" for better placements to make them work harder for the next time they compete Interp at AN, than to just not allow them to skate Interp. (Not even accounting for phoenix's case here...)

BTW, as I also understand it, the moves requirements, which has the original intention of the skater proving that they have "better quality" skating before you quality for AN, will only work for those that qualified at Bronze FS post 2002 season. It will not deal with the skaters who initially got into Bronze FS w/o the moves requirement and certainly not those that got in prior to the addition of Pre-Bronze FS level and will likely to be "Bronzers for Life" b/c of whatever reason (be it "life" or "physical limitation" or what not...)

As for those judges that complain bitterly about having to see poorer quality skaters. I don't mean to sound harsh to those judges out there but... as I understand it, it's part of what you buy into being a judge! If you want to see better quality skaters, you need to put in the time to judging these "poorer quality" skating events so that you work your way up to being a Gold level judge and THEN be able to judge higher level events. And if you ARE one of those higher level judges... SHAME ON YOU! You should know better than that!!! :evil:

NoVa Sk8r

04-19-2007, 07:21 PM

As for those judges that complain bitterly about having to see poorer quality skaters. I don't mean to sound harsh to those judges out there but... as I understand it, it's part of what you buy into being a judge! If you want to see better quality skaters, you need to put in the time to judging these "poorer quality" skating events so that you work your way up to being a Gold level judge and THEN be able to judge higher level events. And if you ARE one of those higher level judges... SHAME ON YOU! You should know better than that!!! :evil:(Most, if not all, of the judges at AN are high level.)

jazzpants

04-19-2007, 07:48 PM

(Most, if not all, of the judges at AN are high level.)I know what you're getting at. My original point stands that you should know better when you go into judging that you're likely to encounter all sorts of skaters. You really can't pick and choose who you're gonna judge, right? (Meaning I'm not bashing all high level judges... just those that are bashing poorer quality skaters. Just don't give them a high score and move on!)

skaternum

04-19-2007, 08:37 PM

Personally, I cannot fault the judges for expressing the sentiment that they don't want to see poor quality skating. I don't either. USFSA really never should have required such high level judges for most of the events. If you buy into the theory that Prebronze is roughly equivilent to Pre-pre, Bronze = Preliminary, Silver = Pre-Juv, etc., then why on earth would you require high level judges for preliminary and prejuvenile skaters? And when you toss in the "adult skater" awkwardness factor, it's really asking a lot of judges to give up an entire week of their personal time to watch that over and over and over.

It's not that easy to find judges willing to give up that much time, for no pay and no tangible reward. They're saints, and I think they're entitled to their opinion. I would hope, however, if they don't like the experience that they wouldn't come back.

Stormy

04-19-2007, 08:40 PM

:frus: Those comments by the judges at ANs are apalling! They know what they're getting into judging ANs.....so, why complain? And a technical specialist of all people to say something like that. WTF?

Not that's it's even a real issue being brought up, but I'm 150% against short and long programs. I have one program...I don't HAVE to do Interp. I only want one program. Making me do two would pretty much double my skating costs, which are a stretch for me to begin with. Whoever is suggesting they want short and long obviously has a lot more money and time than I to spend on their skating! :giveup:

Kinda off topic, is there a way for individual members to attend governing council as delegates? I would have love to go to the upcoming one and want to attend in coming years, but I'm not sure what, if any, club I am going to join next year. I went to GC several years ago and it was an excellent experience.

jskater49

04-19-2007, 09:06 PM

I think I'm going to stop reading this thread because all this talk about not wanting to see bad skating is just making me feel bad. I don't care that they don't have pre-bronze at nationals because I don't think I'd want to compete there, and although I was excited about solo dance, I don't think I'd compete and subject people to having to watch my bad skating. At least around here at our local competitions, people are supportive of what it took to get you this far. :cry:

J

phoenix

04-19-2007, 09:22 PM

If I read the original comment right, the only complaint by the judges was about Interp, is that right? In which case, it's not low level skating they're complaining about, it's the gimmicks/props/hoopla part of the event that isn't really about the skating so much as the entertainment. I can understand that.

I think people are reading too much into that comment. Comedy Interp is not everybody's cup of tea. I don't blame judges who don't care to watch it/judge it either. At one competition I've been at, they don't even use *skating* judges to judge interp--they use theater people, dancers, people like that, who are really there to judge the entertainment factor.

NoVa Sk8r

04-19-2007, 09:29 PM

If I read the original comment right, the only complaint by the judges was about Interp, is that right? In which case, it's not low level skating they're complaining about, it's the gimmicks/props/hoopla part of the event that isn't really about the skating so much as the entertainment. I can understand that.Yes, I believe the judge was mostly commenting on the gimmicks/costumes part of it (and also maybe some of the non-originality of some of the programs--I mean how many people skated to "Chicago"?).

sk8er1964

04-19-2007, 10:31 PM

Not that's it's even a real issue being brought up, but I'm 150% against short and long programs. I have one program...I don't HAVE to do Interp. I only want one program. Making me do two would pretty much double my skating costs, which are a stretch for me to begin with. Whoever is suggesting they want short and long obviously has a lot more money and time than I to spend on their skating! :giveup:

I am the one who suggested it.

For the record, I have a pre-teen who plays travel hockey. For those of you unfamiliar with travel hockey in Michigan, it is about the equivalent money-wise to being a juv/intermediate skater who does regionals as far as the ice bills go. While hockey skates are cheaper than figure skates, the skates plus the protective gear he wears (and grows out of regularly) cost more than the skates on my feet. I have had to drop my own skating from 6-7 hours per week to 3-4 hours per week, and my coaching time from an hour per week to 30-40 minutes per week over the past three years in order to afford his hockey. That's in addition to giving up things like fancy dinners out, my cleaning lady, movie theaters, concerts, my book club, my music club, and the golf I used to play several times a month. Vacations to us are sectionals/adult nationals (when affordable), tent camping, and hockey tournament weekends in such garden spots as Sarnia Ontario and Kalamazoo Michigan - not a whole lot of sun and tanning in those locations in the winter :cry: . Oh, and as far as time, I work about 45 hours per week, spend 3-4 nights per week at the rink for hockey, and serve as the team manager, plus we often have to drive two or three hours each way on the weekend for an hour and 1/2 hockey game. Oh yeah - there's also those volunteer hours that my club requires so that I don't have to cough up a $100 volunteer fee each year. I'm very fortunate that I have a rink close by, a manager who encourages me to skate on my lunch hour, and a husband who is perfectly happy with a main hobby involving a fishing pole, his small boat, and his son joining him (an inexpensive past time) or I wouldn't be skating at all any more. I don't regret any of this, and I am not complaining - I just felt a very strong need to set the record straight.

So, do you want to revise your opinion on who is giving the suggestion??? (Yeah, that set me off on a rant ;) )

Now I will give the reason behind my suggestion. It is in relation to having a QR at AN's only, not to keeping things as they are. I think having some sort of short program based on the test requirements - for example, in Gold having the lutz, plus a combo jump, a staight line footwork sequence, and a combo spin - would equalize the various QR's and the judging. It's simply a suggestion, and I did not consider any ramifications as far as time, expenses or logistics. Kind of like a roundtable visioning session -- throw the idea out there and see if it can grow from other people's valid input. May be it works, maybe it doesn't.

Sk8ngOfficial

04-19-2007, 10:45 PM

This is my first post to a message board. Someone directed me to this thread based on quotes attributed to unnamed officials at this year's Adult Nationals. I will say that I was an official at this year's AN, and I was very proud to have been one. I had a very nice time, and I appreciated all of the skating that I saw.

I have worked very hard to gain my official's status, and I take offense to quotes being thrown around and attributed to anonymous officials. The reason is because all of the other officials suffer. Nova, you obviously heard an official make an inappropriate and offensive remark. Since you quoted the remark, it is only fair to the rest of us officials for you to indicate who said it so as to clear the rest of us. It may not mean anything to you, but to so many of us who volunteer our time to give back to a wonderful sport and to help people, I for one do not want to suffer for one person's ignorance.

kitkat

04-19-2007, 11:02 PM

I am totally lost on the feminine hygeine remark. I really don't understand the comparison.

I have never just loved some of the gimmicky interps. However, they were almost always placed ahead of the the artistic, dramatic numbers back when they were all in the same group. So if judges really don't like them, then why are they usually placed so high?

kk

vesperholly

04-20-2007, 12:30 AM

This is my first post to a message board. Someone directed me to this thread based on quotes attributed to unnamed officials at this year's Adult Nationals. I will say that I was an official at this year's AN, and I was very proud to have been one. I had a very nice time, and I appreciated all of the skating that I saw.

I have worked very hard to gain my official's status, and I take offense to quotes being thrown around and attributed to anonymous officials. The reason is because all of the other officials suffer. <snip> It may not mean anything to you, but to so many of us who volunteer our time to give back to a wonderful sport and to help people, I for one do not want to suffer for one person's ignorance.
I can't speak for the other board members, but hearing that one official said some rude things would never make me think that ALL officials feel that way. The vast majority of officials are nice people who love skating, and volunteer their unpaid time for it.

Actually, I think NoVa was right to not reveal the person's name. That could unfairly tarnish their reputation, as we are all hearing this fourth-hand and out of context.

jazzpants

04-20-2007, 12:31 AM

Sk8ngOfficial: I'm curious to know what the proper channel is for report something like this. Do you report to someone within the HQ offices at USFSA? (If I were NoVa, I don't feel comfortable with posting this official's name out there. I'd rather this be handled privately thru proper channels, KWIM?)

I'm not here to bash anyone, really. And I really feel bad that someone out there is giving you guys a bad name, b/c it's definitely NOT DESERVED!!! Yes, I recognized that you guys are doing this voluntarily and you guys went thru a lot just to become judges and officials. (Yes, I have looked into becoming a judge before and decided that I have too much on my plate as is to devote the time or energy to being judges and officials, so my :bow: to you guys out there!)

I sincerely hope that this particular official that NoVa spoke of will NEVER be invited back for AN again EVER!!! :evil:

InsideAxel

04-20-2007, 12:38 AM

Now I will give the reason behind my suggestion. It is in relation to having a QR at AN's only, not to keeping things as they are. I think having some sort of short program based on the test requirements - for example, in Gold having the lutz, plus a combo jump, a staight line footwork sequence, and a combo spin - would equalize the various QR's and the judging. It's simply a suggestion, and I did not consider any ramifications as far as time, expenses or logistics. Kind of like a roundtable visioning session -- throw the idea out there and see if it can grow from other people's valid input. May be it works, maybe it doesn't.

Are you talking about using the "short" as a QR to the "long" or in addition to it (short + long = final)?

I would think it would have to be in addition to. Could you imagine 3/4s or more of the skaters who show up at Nationals having to prep a "long" program with all its associated costs and time only to never get the chance to skate it? Plus, I'm not really clear on how this would save time.

Seems to me such a proposal would just have people opting to stay home rather than deal with the hassle of developing and training a second program, probably lenthening their Nationals stay with increased travel expenses.

Kelton

Lutzlooploop

04-20-2007, 01:01 AM

Sk8ngOfficial: I'm curious to know what the proper channel is for report something like this. Do you report to someone within the HQ offices at USFSA?

I would think conduct of officials/judges is within the purview of the US Figure Skating Judge's Committee. Perhaps the Selections/Competition Committee would also be interested so that official need never have to officiate at an Adult Nationals again.:??

NoVa Sk8r

04-20-2007, 08:05 AM

I can't speak for the other board members, but hearing that one official said some rude things would never make me think that ALL officials feel that way. The vast majority of officials are nice people who love skating, and volunteer their unpaid time for it.

Actually, I think NoVa was right to not reveal the person's name. That could unfairly tarnish their reputation, as we are all hearing this fourth-hand and out of context.Exactly.
And the comment was heard off the record outside the skating venue; I just thought it was interesting to throw another perspective about interp in the mix. <Insert PITA> image!)

Isk8NYC

04-20-2007, 08:22 AM

Nova, you obviously heard an official make an inappropriate and offensive remark. Since you quoted the remark, it is only fair to the rest of us officials for you to indicate who said it so as to clear the rest of us. NoVa was correct in not naming names on a public forum.
If anyone wants to reveal that information, may I suggest this be done privately to the Adult Skating Committee?

To those officials... I say <snip>I wouldn't have said that in public, on a board with judges and tech specialists as members.... *walks away whistling and snickering*

blue111moon

04-20-2007, 08:31 AM

I think we have to remember that officials are people too, and not USFS-brainwashed clones. They have individual likes and dislikes and, unfortunately, there ARE judges out there who don't like watching adults skate and find low-level adults acutely painful to endure. On the flip side, though, there are judges out there who LOVE adults and adult skating in all its varied forms. Of the top of my head, I can think of at least a dozen New England area judges who actually have asked to be put on the adult event panels at my club's Open.

The sad thing is that of that dozen I've only seen two of them judging at Adult Nationals - because the rest of them are not Gold or National competition judges. Maybe USFS needs to select the Adult panels from judges who WANT to be there regardless of their appointment levels instead of assigning judges who need the experience of working a National competition on their resumes.

Joan

04-20-2007, 08:56 AM

jskater49

04-20-2007, 08:57 AM

I think we have to remember that officials are people too, and not USFS-brainwashed clones. They have individual likes and dislikes and, unfortunately, there ARE judges out there who don't like watching adults skate and find low-level adults acutely painful to endure. .

Well certainly everyone is entitled to an opinion, but just because you have an opinion, doens't mean you need to articulate it anywhere and anytime you feel like it.

When my daughter began competing, our coach called all the kids and parents together for a meeting and lectured us on how to behave at a competition. In particular she said, "the only thing you say outloud when watching a skater is good things...you never complain about your scores outloud or the judging, if you have questions or concerns, you come to me privately, you never know who is listening" I have found that advice to serve me well and I don't think it's too much to expect judges and officials to follow the same etiquitte.

j

phoenix

04-20-2007, 09:11 AM

I'd just like to point out again that the complaint was made about Interp, NOT low level adult skating.

Sorry to beleaguer (sp?) that, but some people seem to have really pounced on this, & it's not fair to the person who made the comment, nor all the judges at AN who put in so much time to make the competition happen. Comedy interp is a whole different animal than your average adult bronze FS program. I'm not sure why people have broadened it into this "why do judges hate adults" campaign.

flo

04-20-2007, 09:32 AM

I agree NoVa, this board is not a place to out an official. This type of comments from judges is unfortunately not new, and has been discussed at the GC meetings.

Sk8ngOfficial - I'd like to know what type of instruction/review the judges receive for interpretive, and what the judging sheets look like. Sometimes I feel the skaters and judges have two different sets of criteria.

Jazz - you're right in that there will always be low level skaters. I really don't mind lower level skaters that actually get out there and skate. Iv'e seen fine programs with low level skills. What I don't care for are those who rely soley on the costume and skate around doing nothing. If you take away the costume - there's no program. One thing I'd like to see is qualifying rounds of interp be skated in a leotard and a simple skirt. If you can tell what the theme/interpretation is from the skating and choreography - then advance to final rounds and wear your costume.

We were faced with the afore mentioned judges and also a need to reduce the total numbers and time requirements at Nats. This is when the final rounds of interp were eliminated and also figures were eliminated.

sk8er1964

04-20-2007, 10:38 AM

Are you talking about using the "short" as a QR to the "long" or in addition to it (short + long = final)?

I would think it would have to be in addition to. Could you imagine 3/4s or more of the skaters who show up at Nationals having to prep a "long" program with all its associated costs and time only to never get the chance to skate it? Plus, I'm not really clear on how this would save time.

Seems to me such a proposal would just have people opting to stay home rather than deal with the hassle of developing and training a second program, probably lenthening their Nationals stay with increased travel expenses.

Kelton

Hmmm. Good point. I guess it would have to be more like the kids where everyone would have to skate both - and you are right, it would take more time. But then again, you would have everyone doing two rounds with no QR/FR thing....oh heck, that doesn't take into consideration the age levels.

This is why change is so hard!!!

I'd still like to see one some day, though! :P

manleywoman

04-20-2007, 11:34 AM

I'd love a SP and LP, but I understand why others wouldn't. But I think it would be great.

TimDavidSkate

04-20-2007, 11:56 AM

I would love that too, I guess not everybody has the time :cry:

jazzpants

04-20-2007, 12:09 PM

Exactly.
And the comment was heard off the record outside the skating venue; I just thought it was interesting to throw another perspective about interp in the mix. <Insert PITA> image!)

NoVa was correct in not naming names on a public forum.
If anyone wants to reveal that information, may I suggest this be done privately to the Adult Skating Committee?
Exactly the reason why I asked on an earlier post for the proper channel to report this type of thing. And yes, I figured that something that crude was probably said "off record."

I wouldn't have said that in public, on a board with judges and tech specialists as members.... *walks away whistling and snickering*Again, I have the highest regard for those judges and officials who volunteer their time and effort. I can never express my gratitude enough. :bow: Just that one official... :x

Jazz - you're right in that there will always be low level skaters. I really don't mind lower level skaters that actually get out there and skate. Iv'e seen fine programs with low level skills. What I don't care for are those who rely soley on the costume and skate around doing nothing. If you take away the costume - there's no program. One thing I'd like to see is qualifying rounds of interp be skated in a leotard and a simple skirt. If you can tell what the theme/interpretation is from the skating and choreography - then advance to final rounds and wear your costume.I will agree with that there will always be that one event where it's nothing more than a costume party. However, my understanding of how Interp should be judged is based on sole how one skates and interps the music and not just on the costume. I trust that when the judges are on my panel and they look at my interp that they judge that accordingly and not just my costume. As for A/D... my concern is that even though I can match music and gestures and stuff that there's always the "former dancer/ballerina" element that I will always have a deficit on. (I'm better at it now, but, let's face it! I'm not the most graceful ballerina-ish person and no matter how hard I try, I'm going to look like a stiff cardboard box. :giveup: )

I am happy though that the Interp events are separated out to comedy and A/D this year. It's about time!!! :bow:

As for a Short and a Long -- I think we need to be mindful of the busy schedules that adults have. I just don't think it's a great idea b/c of the time issues. As it is now, my FS program is still barely started and it's been a couple of months now. :frus:

Sk8ngOfficial

04-20-2007, 12:31 PM

To answer some of the questions posted:

The proper place to report inappropriate conduct by a Judge is to the Chair of the Judge's Committee. If it is a technical panel member, then it should be reported to the Technical Committee. Additionally, the Competition's Committee and Selection Committee could also be notified as they work together to pick the officials for qualifying competitions.

As for judging interpretive events, you must remember that Senior Competition judges and National judges are used at Adult Nationals. So, they have been judging interpretive events for a very long time. Judges are given a sheet of paper with each competitor's name and two columns (one for technical and one for presentation). There is also room to write notes. The criteria the judges are told to use include speed, effortless glide, etc. for the first mark, and creativity, internal expression, musical interpretation, etc. for the second mark. Obviously, judging interpretive events is much more subjective than judging technical programs. Sometimes a program just clicks with one judge, and does nothing for a different judge.

To revisit my suggestion that the official be named on the board, I apologize. You are correct. They should not be named publicly. I do however think that the person needs to be singled out to the appropriate sources (Judges Committee, etc.) because they give the rest of us a bad name.

I appreciate the fact that you have not lumped all of us together based on one bad apple.

Ellyn

04-20-2007, 12:46 PM

How about this: drop comedy interp, and add a Solo Compulsory Dance/Original Dance event.

I like this!

I would love to do a solo free dance (OK with me if the rhythm and some moves are specified, i.e., Original Dance) so I could focus on the skating skills and the musical interpretation without cluttering the program with jumps.

I skate bronze level in both freestyle and dance. Yes it would be better if I had more skills, but I do have some, e.g., forward rockers, that I could use in footwork and transitions but could never pass on a test.

But I'm not so interested in spending time on things like costume and makeup extrinsic to the actual skating.

skaternum

04-20-2007, 01:17 PM

silverbeetle

04-20-2007, 01:50 PM

I guess i need to chime in on this topic...ugh...

While the interp events are not for me, i do see the benefit to the AN competition to have them...sorry to say that they do bring in alot of extra revenue due to the fact you won't see alot of people entering singles, pairs and dance...but you will see people enter singles, pairs or dance, and an interp. With that being said, do i really believe that all events need a 20 minute warm-up, no i don't. While i have the utmost respect for the interp events, i don't believe a 20 minute warm would be necessary. Maybe a practice session could sufice?

Now that i've said that, i'm done with the interp conversation...

as for solo compulsory dance... I can see this being a HUGE event. There are ALOT of dancers that either don't have a partner or they are singles skaters that are looking for another event. I say go for that!

and there are my 2 cents worth.

going back to lurking...

Silverbeetle

flo

04-20-2007, 01:54 PM

That's the point, you "put a lot of effort into interpreting the music to these ends, and come up with a costume that complements this". That's great. I don't want to eliminate these, or any based on theme or category. When we were trying to reduce numbers/time and apease judges comments about judging non-skating, the restructuring was suggested. My suggestion was that if judges did not want to see non-skating programs, then stop rewarding them.

daisies

04-20-2007, 03:15 PM

I'm really starting to resent some of the comments about Interp here. When did Interp become so ripe for snobbery? I put a lot of time and thought into my Interp programs, and they'd definitely fall into the dreaded Light Entertainment / Comedy category. I have a theme or character to portray, put a lot of effort into interpreting the music to these ends, and come up with a costume that complements this. You guys are doing the same thing with Interp that you're criticizing other people about with respect to griping about the judges: painting all with the same brush. So what if there are a few people who do crappy LE/C numbers? I promise you there are as many who do crappy Artistic / Dramatic numbers. In fact, most of the A/D numbers bore me to tears and are full of questionable "skating" and over-emoting by women who fancy themselves ballerinas on ice, but you don't hear me suggesting that we get rid of them altogether! Different strokes for different folks. Like it or not, the LE/C interps are very popular. I'm insulted by some of the comments. What makes YOUR vision of Interp the only correct vision of Interp?

And since the theme of the day seems to involve how to pay for AN in the future, let's not forget how much money these events can bring in.

ITA. There are plenty of great Interps and plenty of crappy Interps. Just as there are plenty of great FS programs and plenty of crappy ones. Bottom line, it's all skating. That said, I agree with Flo that if the judges don't like to see gimmicky, non-skating programs, they need to mark them down. When the gimmicky ones win, it only encourages other gimmicky programs.

Regarding 20-minute warmups, I believe it should be all or nothing -- everyone should get them, or no one should. Or perhaps, only give them to the Championship events. But to say that Interps shouldn't get them isn't fair. A lot of Interps contain actual skating. Yeah, it's only a 1:40 program -- but so is a Bronze FS program. Either way, whether it's Interp or FS, skaters still need the opportunity to warm up. My Interp, for instance, was supposed to include (but didn't due to injury, unfortunately) a loop, flip, lutz and walley. I need that 20 minutes to get my body working to be able to do those jumps. A practice session that I pay for would work just as well, but I think it's unfair to say Interps have to pay and others don't. We all pay the same entry fee for the competition.

silverbeetle

04-20-2007, 03:23 PM

...Regarding 20-minute warmups, I believe it should be all or nothing -- everyone should get them, or no one should. Or perhaps, only give them to the Championship events. But to say that Interps shouldn't get them isn't fair. A lot of Interps contain actual skating. Yeah, it's only a 1:40 program -- but so is a Bronze FS program. Either way, whether it's Interp or FS, skaters still need the opportunity to warm up. My Interp, for instance, was supposed to include (but didn't due to injury, unfortunately) a loop, flip, lutz and walley. I need that 20 minutes to get my body working to be able to do those jumps. A practice session that I pay for would work just as well, but I think it's unfair to say Interps have to pay and others don't. We all pay the same entry fee for the competition.

Well, i regards to my statement...if there were events that didn't include the 20 minute warmup...then the entry fee should be less.

Isk8NYC

04-22-2007, 03:24 PM

I haven't had a chance to look at this document myself yet, but I thought I'd get the word out as soon as possible.

Adult Skating Committtee Meeting Minutes (http://frozenpond.homestead.com/2007_AN_Mtg_Minutes.pdf)

Thin-Ice

04-23-2007, 06:10 AM

MusicSkateFan

04-23-2007, 06:37 AM

We keep bringing up points to many topics and have many opinions on those topics.

I think DCden has brought up the MAIN point! Adult skating needs a mission statement! This mission statement needs to have short and long term goals!

Every action theat the committee takes has consequences for adult skating in the short and long term. We need to know where we want to take adult skating before we make these suggestions for change. I have even made some statements in the past that I am not truly sure what the effects would be in the long run.

So..... I am going to make an attempt not to post my opinion on changes to our sport and only chime in with two words. "Mission Statement" I do plan on sending some emails to committee members requesting a mission statement formation.
:giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :

blue111moon

04-23-2007, 07:34 AM

The Adult Skating Committee has a mission statement as part of its rules. I don't have my Rulebook in hand but it states that its goal is to promote and establish guidelines for adult skating.

Clarice

04-23-2007, 08:07 AM

I've got my Rule Book right here - I think you're referring to section ASCR 3.00, titled "Responsibility". It says:

ASCR 3.01 It shall be the responsibility of the Adult Skating Committee to:
A. Encourage and support the growth of figure skating for adults;
B. Create and encourage the creation of programs addressing the needs of the adult skating community;
C. Work in conjunction with the Competitions Committee to continue the development of the U.S. Adult Figure Skating Championships and other adult competitive opportunities.

MusicSkateFan

04-23-2007, 08:46 AM

That's great....can anyone give me specific goals for this year? How will proposed changes work with these responsibilities?

A mission statement would be more specific IMHO and really be the tool to these reposibilities.

Mrs Redboots

04-23-2007, 01:00 PM

flo

04-23-2007, 01:06 PM

"Speaking as someone who doesn't skate well, but who does do good Interp,"
Not sure about the doesn't skate well, but for good interp that's for sure - You had a great one at Mountain Cup!

Mrs Redboots

04-23-2007, 01:17 PM

Thank you!

flo

04-23-2007, 01:30 PM

Just saw your pics from the wedding. Beautiful. You could have a "mother of the bride" song composed for your next interp - you'll have a lot to draw on form that.

lostinice

04-27-2007, 07:37 PM

Just wanted to join in here to put another thought out about the bronze and silver championship rounds. Just playing devil's advocate...OK?? Why have any championship rounds that cover multiple levels (masters) or ages?

Why do we have to have a combined masters novice, jr and sr championship??? That never made any sense to me. Why do we have to crown 1 champion across all of the gold ages. Why can't we simply have Masters Sr Champion, Master Jr Champion, Masters Novice Champion, and if entries warrant it, break it down by age. Then have only Gold 1 Champion, Gold 2 champion, Gold 3 champion, etc... and likewise Silver 1 champ, 2 champ, 3 champ.

While we're at it, give the Intermediates their own event....they get caught in the middle anyway. Gold is similar to Juvenile, not intermediate.

Why all the fuss over making sure we let all these different levels and ages compete against one another. Is that what its all about? If so, then do like the standard kids do....group all ages together per level, random draw for QRs, and use the standard rules for making it to finals and crown 1 champion for the level.... for EVERY level...

Or, If everyone still wants ONE champion, then add 1 more round for the top 4 in say silver 1, 2 3, 4 and 5 and crown an overall champ. (I know, picking those people who go to finals is controversial too!)

If the mission of adult skating is to be all inclusive, with a place for everyone, then lets make it that way. It just seems like we need to decide what the goal is.

Terri C

05-06-2007, 12:08 PM

Anyone go to GC?
Did these RFA's pass or no?

SK8RX

05-06-2007, 01:34 PM

Anyone go to GC?
Did these RFA's pass or no?

301 - passed

302 - item withdrawn

Terri C

05-06-2007, 01:38 PM

301 - passed

302 - item withdrawn

Thank you!!!:D

jskater49

05-06-2007, 03:44 PM

301 - passed

302 - item withdrawn

What about 321 - adult and masters solo dance test?

j

techskater

05-06-2007, 07:35 PM

Passed for Masters tests to count

Referred to committee for Solo Dance Petition

jskater49

05-06-2007, 07:58 PM

Passed for Masters tests to count

Referred to committee for Solo Dance Petition

I'm sorry, I don't understand what "Passed for Masters tests to count" Does that mean there will be an adult and masters test standard for solo dance like there is for regular dance?

j

SK8RX

05-06-2007, 09:13 PM

I'm sorry, I don't understand what "Passed for Masters tests to count" Does that mean there will be an adult and masters test standard for solo dance like there is for regular dance?

j

Yes, 321 passed, which referred to the establishment of a compulsory dance solo test track for adult and masters skaters.

jskater49

05-06-2007, 09:17 PM

Yes, 321 passed, which referred to the establishment of a compulsory dance solo test track for adult and masters skaters.

YAY!!!

j

TimDavidSkate

05-06-2007, 10:16 PM

deleted - just found out it has been withdrawn, its good, so at least i dont have to stress out for a whole year - just reduced it by another 100%

jazzpants

05-06-2007, 11:25 PM

Yes, 321 passed, which referred to the establishment of a compulsory dance solo test track for adult and masters skaters.
Good to know I have another option for skating if my jumping days goes away! :D (Thank you for reporting, SK8RX!)

I am very happy that it came out the way it did. I especially am happy that they've put back one extra spin as an option, since I am more of a spinner than a jumper... doesn't mean I can lax on the jumps though. 8O

dcden

05-06-2007, 11:25 PM

Thank you SK8RX for letting us know how the Bronze WB reqs and Ch. Silver/ Bronze issues turned out.

For those who were there, what do you feel were the major changes, if any, affecting standard-track skating? (That is, the non-adult skating proposals.)

dcden

05-07-2007, 07:34 AM

Hm, I can partly answer my own question... on the USFS website, it reports that the draw for the long program skating order will be a little more tightly coupled with the order of finish from the short program. And, there's a new $10 admin fee for all regional and sectional events, including adult sectionals.

Any other interesting news from GC?

jskater49

05-07-2007, 08:18 AM

Hm, I can partly answer my own question... on the USFS website, it reports that the draw for the long program skating order will be a little more tightly coupled with the order of finish from the short program.

That decision was made strictly for NBC - part of the TV deal to make it easier to broadcast. WHen ABC/ESPN declined to renew their contract, it looked like we would not get ANY skating on TV in the US!

j

Joan

05-07-2007, 02:26 PM

Re 301: I'm wondering how it is possible to have 3 spin elements and 4 jump elements in a 1'40" program, especially if three of the jumps are combos or sequences and one or more of the spins are combos, and coverage of ice is also expected? Also, what does this do to international rules? Do they stay at two spins?

I did not favor the passage of 301.

NickB

05-07-2007, 03:31 PM

Debbie S

05-07-2007, 04:10 PM

I technically have 6 jump elements (including 2 3-jump combos/sequences and one two jump combo) and 3 spins in my 1:40 pre-bronze program, as well as a 1/2 length step sequence and some other transitions. I don't have any true combination spins or spins with a change of foot in my program yet so the spins take less time but I certainly think it's possible to have a decent program* with 4 jump elements and 3 spins (maybe on of which is a combination spin) and just think that two spins isn't really enough for a program (especially when there are 3 on the test). JMO. Personally I would favor allowing more than 4 jump elements too, with limits on repeats so a skater would be encouraged to demonstrate all of the different takeoffs and have more than one solo jump if they use up the 3 combo "boxes."If you plan on using this for a Bronze program, you'll need to make some changes. Per the WBP rules that went into effect this year (301 only affects spins, not jumps), you can only have 1 3-jump combo - the other combos must be 2-jump. A jump element is defined as a jumping pass, meaning it could be a solo jump or a combo - each jump within a combo is not a separate jump element.

As for limits on repeats, they are already in effect. You may only repeat a jump once, and if repeated it must be done in combination - if the same jumps are done in combo with each other (ex: loop-loop, lutz-loop-loop), then you can't do the jump again in the program. This repeat rule was not used at Sectionals or AN this year b/c of a mistake in the announcement, but it was in effect at all other comps and I assume will be in effect at Sectionals and AN next year.

Joan, I understand what you are saying, but remember, the rule was changed b/c the Bronze test requires 3 spins, so skaters wanting to use their test program to compete can do so. I think the change was a good idea, as it seemed bizarre to require more for a test than would be allowed in a comp. Usually, it's the reverse, with the test requirements being the minimum of what is needed for competition at a particular level. And Bronze skaters are not being required to do 3 spins, just allowed if they choose to do so. So skaters who are better at spins than jumps will be able to make themselves more competitive, and those who prefer to just do 2 spins will be able to.

NickB

05-07-2007, 05:12 PM

If you plan on using this for a Bronze program, you'll need to make some changes. Per the WBP rules that went into effect this year (301 only affects spins, not jumps), you can only have 1 3-jump combo - the other combos must be 2-jump. A jump element is defined as a jumping pass, meaning it could be a solo jump or a combo - each jump within a combo is not a separate jump element.

Yes, I know of all that but since they aren't limited so much at pre-bronze my coach and I decided to put in as much content as I could within reason (the only jump I do more than twice is the loop, because I had 2 in combo and we decided I should demonstrate it solo since it was within the rules). My pet peeve is when skaters do 6 or 7 loop jumps in a program, sometimes even doing up to 6 combinations, all involving loops. 8O

As for limits on repeats, they are already in effect. You may only repeat a jump once, and if repeated it must be done in combination - if the same jumps are done in combo with each other (ex: loop-loop, lutz-loop-loop), then you can't do the jump again in the program. This repeat rule was not used at Sectionals or AN this year b/c of a mistake in the announcement, but it was in effect at all other comps and I assume will be in effect at Sectionals and AN next year.

I thought that was what happened but was too lazy to look it up (not to mention the fact that those rules are screwed up in the rulebook anyway), so thanks. :P I still think it should be 5 jump elements personally, since I'd like to see more than one solo jump. Also I'd also be in favor of either requiring an axel-type jump (which would obviously have to be a waltz jump at the bronze level) and giving the waltz jump a value, or having the waltz jump not count as a jump element at all so skaters could do it without using a jump "box." I'd prefer to see all the takeoffs but it's sort of a waste to do a waltz jump under the current rules if you can do enough of the higher level jumps, which it shouldn't be (especially since a waltz jump is one that is likely to be of high quality relative to the others).

flying~camel

05-07-2007, 05:44 PM

I did not favor the passage of 301.

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

There is absolutely no room in my program to add another spin and I'm already pushing it right to the end of my music with what is already there! :??

techskater

05-07-2007, 07:41 PM

I thought that was what happened but was too lazy to look it up (not to mention the fact that those rules are screwed up in the rulebook anyway), so thanks. :P I still think it should be 5 jump elements personally, since I'd like to see more than one solo jump.

5 jump passes is WAY too much in a 1:40 program to actually have anything beyond skate, skate, jump, spin, skate, skate,... 6 jump passes barely fit in a Gold length program with 3 spins and a F/W or spiral sequence while having good ice coverage and interesting transitions.

Mel On Ice

05-07-2007, 08:27 PM

Mandatory 5?! I had 5 jump passes in my program last year and 3 spins. It was terrible for ice coverage and gave me almost no time for quality footwork or spirals.

I will begrudgingly do 4 jumps/3 spins if it passes since I want to remain competitive, but please, do you want elements or a well-balanced program? Even the senior skaters only do 4 jumps in their short.

NickB

05-07-2007, 08:47 PM

I disagree. I see skaters do programs of about that length with 5 or more jump elements and 3 spins that demonstrate nice transitions and skating ability all the time. Granted I see more pre-preliminary and preliminary skaters than adults, but it's certainly not impossible. It is true that sometimes (but not always) the adults tend to be slower than the kids and not have as much ice coverage but I just don't think the difference between 4 jumping passes and having one more solo jump would make a big difference in the overall program or quality of skating. (I wouldn't support more jump elements at the higher levels because they already get plenty of opportunities to demonstrate a variety of jumps and since the jumps are much more difficult they tend to take much longer to set up and sometimes do take away from the program-- but I haven't ever found that to be the case at the low levels). Anyway, it's just my opinion and you don't have to agree with it. :)

ETA: I was responding to techskater and hadn't seen your post before I posted, Mel. Yes I would like to see a well-balanced program but part of that is having a variety of jump takeoffs and a balance of combinations and solo jumps. Another jump might mean taking out a transition but I would hope the skater and coach could find a way to work at least a few transitions that really show of your strengths anyway. I could conceivably change my mind after seeing more adult programs. That was just my initial opinion as a skater since I know I like being able to demonstrate all the jumps I can do and would feel slightly restricted by only being allowed 4 jump elements (especially since I certainly want to include at least one waltz jump and think there should be one in a bronze program but with only 4 elements it would feel like throwing points away when thinking in IJS mode).

jazzpants

05-07-2007, 11:48 PM

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

There is absolutely no room in my program to add another spin and I'm already pushing it right to the end of my music with what is already there! :??
*shrug* Dunno... I got 3 spins in 1:40 and did my Bronze Test Program for Pre-Bronze FS comp. I also got 4 jump passes in there too... AND footwork to boot!!! :lol:

flo

05-08-2007, 08:12 AM

In my bronze program, I think I had 1 combo, 2 single jumps, 1 combo spin and 1 solo, and lots of edges. What I don't like about the current rules is that there is no room for skating.

techskater

05-08-2007, 08:18 AM

If you want 5 jump passes and three spins move to Silver. Why should a Bronze and Silver program have the same maximums?

FrankR

05-08-2007, 10:40 AM

What I don't like about the current rules is that there is no room for skating.

I agree. At the USFS adult gold level, we have about 2 minutes 30 seconds plus or minus ten seconds. That's just ten seconds less than the time limit for a senior short program assuming a gold skater uses the full 2:40 allotted to them. However, in a senior short program you must have three jumping passes, three spins and two step sequences or a step and a spiral sequence. At USFS gold level freestyle, with ten seconds less time, we're trying to cram in six jump elements (or jumping passes), the same number of spins and a step sequence or spiral sequence. It really is a challenge to actually demonstrate skating ability when you're trying to cram in as much technical content as you can under such a tight time-frame. I suppose that there's always the option to elect to do fewer technical elements so that you can actually skate but that's risky in a freestyle event. At least technical elements have a set value and you can do the math and figure out your program's technical base value. It's not always easy to predict how your program will score on the PCS scores. So we have a conundrum. Cram in as much technical content and sacrifice displaying the quality of your basic skating to its fullest or pull out technical elements and really ride your edges and possibly lose what could be valuable points on jumps and spins??

sk8pics

05-08-2007, 11:54 AM

Just wanted to add the adult program times are MAX times, not +- times. So, adult gold, for example, is max 2:40 not 2:30 +- 10 seconds.

doubletoe

05-08-2007, 12:03 PM

I agree. At the USFS adult gold level, we have about 2 minutes 30 seconds plus or minus ten seconds. That's just ten seconds less than the time limit for a senior short program assuming a gold skater uses the full 2:40 allotted to them. However, in a senior short program you must have three jumping passes, three spins and two step sequences or a step and a spiral sequence. At USFS gold level freestyle, with ten seconds less time, we're trying to cram in six jump elements (or jumping passes), the same number of spins and a step sequence or spiral sequence. It really is a challenge to actually demonstrate skating ability when you're trying to cram in as much technical content as you can under such a tight time-frame. I suppose that there's always the option to elect to do fewer technical elements so that you can actually skate but that's risky in a freestyle event. At least technical elements have a set value and you can do the math and figure out your program's technical base value. It's not always easy to predict how your program will score on the PCS scores. So we have a conundrum. Cram in as much technical content and sacrifice displaying the quality of your basic skating to its fullest or pull out technical elements and really ride your edges and possibly lose what could be valuable points on jumps and spins??

On the other hand, decent step and spiral sequences usually take 20-30 seconds each (depending on the level), so only having to do one or the other gives you an additional 20-30 seconds. Subtract the 10 seconds difference between 2:50 and 2:40 and we Adult Gold skaters still have 10-20 more seconds to fit stuff in. When you factor in the difference in how long our spins last compared to the Senior level skaters, we've got another 5-10 seconds to work with. Ture, fitting in 6 jump passes while still doing some skating in-between requires some strategizing on the choreography/logistics, but I actually think it's kind of a fun challenge. :)

daisies

05-08-2007, 12:06 PM

Re 301: I'm wondering how it is possible to have 3 spin elements and 4 jump elements in a 1'40" program, especially if three of the jumps are combos or sequences and one or more of the spins are combos, and coverage of ice is also expected?

Remember, it's a *maximum* of three spins. That means you can still do two and not get penalized. But those who already have three in their program because they used the same program for their test now won't have to rechoreograph. It's pretty much one size fits all now!

FrankR

05-08-2007, 12:22 PM

Fitting in 6 jump passes while still doing some skating in-between just comes down to spending some time strategizing on the choreography/logistics (it's the fun part, IMO!).

Very true as well. One just has to get creative. I plan on keeping my program another year in large part because, though I certainly do love my program, I think there is still a way to space my elements out a bit better and do more in between skating in addition to performing the elements I've chosen. I also would like to raise the level of my basic skating and then give this program another shot. It would be easier to fit in all the elements I'd like if my stroking were more efficient. You're right, Lauren. It isn't impossible but certainly it is a challenge. :)

jazzpants

05-08-2007, 02:20 PM

If you want 5 jump passes and three spins move to Silver. Why should a Bronze and Silver program have the same maximums?Ummm... last I've check, there are only 4 jump passes allowed at the Bronze level, as opposed to Silver's 5 jump passes. ;)

But playing Devil's Advocate here... if the reasoning for having Bronze do only 2 spins in their WBP program is a matter of timing, then they should also change the TEST requirement for Bronze FS so there would only be 2 spin on the test. :twisted: As it is now, once I was done with my Bronze FS test program, I had to totally ditched it for a TOTALLY BRAND NEW PROGRAM!!!! (Which, BTW, is STILL not done yet!!! :frus: :x ) This new change to the rules is to specifically address this issue so the Pre-Bronze FS skaters who are testing Bronze FS soon (like our Terri C here) won't have to totally rip apart their FS program to follow the WBP requirements - they just change spins and jumps!!!

How about this as a compromise: Instead of tweaking the number of spin passes allowed, how about proposing for next year that a certain number of combo spins be allowed at the Bronze level and at least one must be a solo spin. That should cut a little bit of time out for more "skating!" :P

Joan

05-08-2007, 04:27 PM

... if the reasoning for having Bronze do only 2 spins in their WBP program is a matter of timing, then they should also change the TEST requirement for Bronze FS so there would only be 2 spin on the test. :P

I like this idea

Hannahclear

05-08-2007, 04:46 PM

Well I'm not thrilled to see 3 spins back in bronze, as I'm not a huge spin fan. I could do 2, but I feel that makes me less than competitive.

I'm probably going to Adult Nats as a bronze skater next year, so I have to think about this, though I have been skating up.

At least 4 jumping passes leaves more time to cram those spins in.

I would like to see Adult Bronze program time inch up to 1:50. My biggest reason for skating up this year to silver was program time. 1:40 feels very rushed to me.

jazzpants

05-08-2007, 05:30 PM

I like this ideaI don't know if it's a good ideal to just do two jumps... :?? I'm a spinner myself and prefer the compromise... It's the "figure skating" not "figure jumping..." thing for me.

Besides that, and this is purely from a selfish standpoint...jumps puts STRESS on my lower back and joints.... if the skaters are rewarded based on jumps a lot more than on spins and footwork, I'd rather take up ice dancing then and spare my lower back. :giveup:

techskater

05-08-2007, 08:12 PM

Ummm... last I've check, there are only 4 jump passes allowed at the Bronze level, as opposed to Silver's 5 jump passes. ;)

But playing Devil's Advocate here... if the reasoning for having Bronze do only 2 spins in their WBP program is a matter of timing, then they should also change the TEST requirement for Bronze FS so there would only be 2 spin on the test. :twisted: As it is now, once I was done with my Bronze FS test program, I had to totally ditched it for a TOTALLY BRAND NEW PROGRAM!!!! (Which, BTW, is STILL not done yet!!! :frus: :x ) This new change to the rules is to specifically address this issue so the Pre-Bronze FS skaters who are testing Bronze FS soon (like our Terri C here) won't have to totally rip apart their FS program to follow the WBP requirements - they just change spins and jumps!!!

:P

Yeah, someone here wanted 5 jump passes at Bronze and my first comment was "where would the transitions and skating be" and my second reponse was move up to Silver.